Torn on two rogue build ideas, could use help. One shot, level 17.

[Odessa333]

Hi all!

So as the topic says, I'm torn on two ideas. It's for a one shot, level 17, and it's for a more social heist game with some combat. At it's core I know I'm playing a blind rogue, taking 14 levels of rogue for the blind sense ability to make the 'blind' thing somewhat function. I'll grab alert as an ASI as well. From there, I'm not sure on the last three levels / subclass. Initially I had planned to go 17 levels of rogue and take Assassin subclass, as the chance to play a level 17 assassin is rare. I figure I could lure someone to a backroom, backstab, and likely instant kill. It's very niche to be sure, and high chance of things going wrong, based on how surprise works, how the enemy could make the save, etc.

The second idea I had is taking 3 levels of bard. With the home rules, skilled, prodigy, lore bard, etc, I could get proficiency in all skills and expertise in 7 of them. I have some good rolled stats (10 STR, 20 DEX with one ASI, 14 CON, 12 INT, 14 WIS, 16 CHA) and I could pick up a stone of good luck to be amazing at all skill checks. This would combo well with Mastermind (for more tools for reliable talents) or Swashbuckler, for more consistent sneak attack in a fight, though multiclassing with bard has less total sneak attack damage (2d6) from pure rogue, and no assassin crit/death strike, obviously.


I think the second idea is better mechanically, though I'm hoping for some other opinions. My OCD has been acting up a lot lately and I'm second guessing myself quite a lot over this. I need to step away and try to relax, stress less, etc, so I'm hoping between some distance and some feedback I can stop overthinking this. Thank you for your time!

[sayaijin]

Have you taken a look at the reliable talent ability? If you think you'll have chances to use all your skill checks, then having proficiency in all of them means you virtually always succeed on your skill checks.

I think the question you have to ask is if you want to be a spell caster or not. Those three levels of bard give you some amazing abilities, and combine that with swashbuckler (which uses Cha), can be a very fun roleplaying character too. Imagine a blind pirate minstrel.

Edit: I missed the part in your post where you did reference reliable talent. I think the question is still whether your DM will use skill checks enough or if the levels in bard mean you won't need skills because of magic

[CTurbo]

Social heist game??? Rogue 14/GOOlock 3(Chain)

Why Warlock?

At Will Disguise Self and Persuasion/Deception skill proficiencies from invocations

Why Great Old One? I think telepathy would be great for this.
Why Chain? See through the eyes of your familiar or at least know what it sees at all times. Would be great for a blind character.

Not sure on which Rogue to take.
Assassin has some built in Cha features.
Thief's Fast Hands could be nice.
Mastermind has some useful features for this too.


Not interested in a super powered familiar? Go Blade pact so you can always be unarmed yet also always have a weapon at your disposal.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Go with the second idea. I'd recommend AT though - at level 17, you're at the point where you can MHL disarm everyone before a fight, and magical ambush: suggestion anyone who you're auto-success mundane skill checks won't persuade.

[Keravath]

The biggest concern I can "see" with the character is your self-imposed blindness.

"BLINDSENSE
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you."

At 14, you do not have blindsight ... you have a blind sense that lets you hear where any creature is within 10' of you. That's it ... you still can't see.

From a skills perspective this means ...
- you automatically fail any perception checks that rely on sight. You can't see anything. Expertise in perception does nothing. You can't see the marks that might indicate the location of a hidden door for example. You effectively don't have a passive perception unless you can hear something.
- investigation checks that rely on being able to see something to figure it out will also likely fail automatically.
- survival checks to track something will fail because you can't see the tracks.
- nature checks to identify a creature or plant will also either fail or be at disadvantage since you can't see it. If you want to identify a dangerous plant you will have to touch it or hope someone else can describe it well enough.

As part of the backstory, how did your character manage to acquire the skills needed to be a high level rogue while blinded? You have disadvantage on all attacks and anyone else has advantage to attack you.

Basically, being blind makes the character a liability to the rest of the party since they won't be able to contribute appropriately to the defense of the party and will require far more healing since they will be hurt far more often. They will stumble into traps, might have to use a cane to avoid pit falls or tripping over rocks in a dungeon. They might walk by a door or a monster standing in the hallway without ever noticing either.

The only exception to this is if your DM gives you a magic item allowing some form of vision. A headband of blindsight 60' for example. Or the DM could give the character some form of echolocation that gives information on the environment and the shapes of things if not the colour. Or perhaps the DM will just ignore the blindness and allow the character to make attacks and skill checks as if they could see while just saying they are blind (but if that is the case, why bother with trying to role play being blind in the first place). In the end, without some DM cooperation and assistance, a blind character is at such a disadvantage as an adventurer that it is a problem for the rest of the party.

So, the character sounds fine but I would seriously reconsider the "blind" element unless the DM is onboard with mitigating it. Blind sense does not do that.

(One possibility would be to take two levels of warlock for the Devils sight invocation, roleplay the character as having made a pact to obtain some sort of vision and the only vision they have is devils sight).

[Warlush]

Social heist game??? Rogue 14/GOOlock 3(Chain)

Why Warlock?

At Will Disguise Self and Persuasion/Deception skill proficiencies from invocations

Why Great Old One? I think telepathy would be great for this.
Why Chain? See through the eyes of your familiar or at least know what it sees at all times. Would be great for a blind character.

Not sure on which Rogue to take.
Assassin has some built in Cha features.
Thief's Fast Hands could be nice.
Mastermind has some useful features for this too.


Not interested in a super powered familiar? Go Blade pact so you can always be unarmed yet also always have a weapon at your disposal.

I second all this. It's a super fun and super powerful build.

[CTurbo]

A played a Lawful Good Monk who was tricked into making a pact with a devil and then later on bargained with the devil to save his friends which the devil did, but in typical devil fashion, wanted something in return so it took my sight. Soon after(next level), my patron gave me an Imp familiar and the Voice of the Chain master invocation so I could see from my Imps eyes. This was a fun complex character but it did require a bit of homebrew/DM hand waiving to work out.

My familiar was an actual Imp and not a spirit in the form of an Imp. It did not obey me very well at first, but eventually it did. It did however continually try to corrupt me.
I got the Voice of the Chain Master feat for free.
The DM allowed me to take a feat that gave me Blindsight/Blindsense out to 10ft for the sole purpose of not having to have disadvantages on all attacks forever. We didn't want this character to be a liability and a Monk with always disadvantage on all attacks would be terrible.

The point is, playing a blind character that can see from it's familiar's eyes was a lot of fun, and with just a bit of DM hand waiving, doesn't have to be a liability. If sticking strictly to RAW, I don't think a blind character could work. MAYBE a Barbarian who could always attack recklessly to counter to constant disadvantage?

[MinotaurWarrior]

The biggest concern I can "see" with the character is your self-imposed blindness.

"BLINDSENSE
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you."

At 14, you do not have blindsight ... you have a blind sense that lets you hear where any creature is within 10' of you. That's it ... you still can't see.

From a skills perspective this means ...
- you automatically fail any perception checks that rely on sight. You can't see anything. Expertise in perception does nothing. You can't see the marks that might indicate the location of a hidden door for example. You effectively don't have a passive perception unless you can hear something.
- investigation checks that rely on being able to see something to figure it out will also likely fail automatically.
- survival checks to track something will fail because you can't see the tracks.
- nature checks to identify a creature or plant will also either fail or be at disadvantage since you can't see it. If you want to identify a dangerous plant you will have to touch it or hope someone else can describe it well enough.

As part of the backstory, how did your character manage to acquire the skills needed to be a high level rogue while blinded? You have disadvantage on all attacks and anyone else has advantage to attack you.

Basically, being blind makes the character a liability to the rest of the party since they won't be able to contribute appropriately to the defense of the party and will require far more healing since they will be hurt far more often. They will stumble into traps, might have to use a cane to avoid pit falls or tripping over rocks in a dungeon. They might walk by a door or a monster standing in the hallway without ever noticing either.

The only exception to this is if your DM gives you a magic item allowing some form of vision. A headband of blindsight 60' for example. Or the DM could give the character some form of echolocation that gives information on the environment and the shapes of things if not the colour. Or perhaps the DM will just ignore the blindness and allow the character to make attacks and skill checks as if they could see while just saying they are blind (but if that is the case, why bother with trying to role play being blind in the first place). In the end, without some DM cooperation and assistance, a blind character is at such a disadvantage as an adventurer that it is a problem for the rest of the party.

So, the character sounds fine but I would seriously reconsider the "blind" element unless the DM is onboard with mitigating it. Blind sense does not do that.

(One possibility would be to take two levels of warlock for the Devils sight invocation, roleplay the character as having made a pact to obtain some sort of vision and the only vision they have is devils sight).

Strict RAW, being an AT let's them just cast darkvision on themselves.

[Keravath]

Strict RAW, being an AT let's them just cast darkvision on themselves.

Strict RAW it would be a DMs call. The darkvision spell gives the creature darkvision. However darkvision is described as:

"you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray."

The definition on pg 183 has been adjusted to match the definition used in the rest of the book. All of the darkvision descriptions make it relative to how the character can normally see in dim light or darkness. Unfortunately, a blind character can see in neither so RAW, darkvision allows the character to see in dim light as if it were bright light and darkness as if were dim light and in both these cases, a blind character still can't see at all.

Allowing either the darkvision spell or devils sight to grant sight to a blind creature is very much a DM call and is in the realm I referred to of DMs doing something to mitigate the real issues of playing a blind character.

[Nidgit]

It's social-focused, right? Why not go for a social Rogue subclass? Inquisitive specifically requires you to see stuff, but if it's a oneshot your DM will probably let you ignore those requirements. And Chainlock is a viable workaround if they don't.

Seriously, blind master detective. You can hear lies by the slightest inflection in voice and quickening of the pulse. Your Perception checks might be at disadvantage but you still won't be rolling below 26. Deduce the location of everything around you with the most insane logic you can think of.

Mastermind also works but seems like a bit less fun.

[Keravath]

It's social-focused, right? Why not go for a social Rogue subclass? Inquisitive specifically requires you to see stuff, but if it's a oneshot your DM will probably let you ignore those requirements. And Chainlock is a viable workaround if they don't.

Seriously, blind master detective. You can hear lies by the slightest inflection in voice and quickening of the pulse. Your Perception checks might be at disadvantage but you still won't be rolling below 26. Deduce the location of everything around you with the most insane logic you can think of.

Mastermind also works but seems like a bit less fun.

Pact of the chain warlock is a good idea since it would let you view things through the familiar's senses as another way to mitigate the blindness. It also provides additional motivation for making the pact in the first place. Also, depending on your DM, the Voice of the Chainmaster invocation might allow you to see through your familiar's senses at will rather than taking an action but that depends on how the DM decides to interpret it.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Strict RAW it would be a DMs call. The darkvision spell gives the creature darkvision. However darkvision is described as:

"you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray."

The definition on pg 183 has been adjusted to match the definition used in the rest of the book. All of the darkvision descriptions make it relative to how the character can normally see in dim light or darkness. Unfortunately, a blind character can see in neither so RAW, darkvision allows the character to see in dim light as if it were bright light and darkness as if were dim light and in both these cases, a blind character still can't see at all.

Allowing either the darkvision spell or devils sight to grant sight to a blind creature is very much a DM call and is in the realm I referred to of DMs doing something to mitigate the real issues of playing a blind character.

Well, it's exactly the same level of RAW as the headband of darkvision would be.

[Keravath]

Well, it's exactly the same level of RAW as the headband of darkvision would be.

I completely agree.

The only custom magic item I mentioned was a headband of blindsight which would actually grant the ability or sense to SEE something by giving the character the blindsight sense. A headband of sight which grants a character the ability to SEE would also be fine but pretty much nullifies the entire blindness thing except it might have a limited range. Goggles of Night would have the same issue as the darkvision spell because all it does is grant darkvision which improves existing vision, it doesn't grant the ability to see unless the DM decides it does.