Most powerful tier 2 and 3 builds?

[CMCC]

Title says it all. What do you got?

Feel free to discuss 1 and 4 too, but I wanted to focus the discussion a bit.

EDIT: interpret “most powerful” as you like. If that means most dpr to you then go with that. If that’s most well rounded or best control - then sure.

I just ask that you explain your thoughts and define the phrase “most powerful”.

[KorvinStarmast]

By most powerful what do you mean?`

I had a Monk 1 / Druid(Moon) 10. Early Tier III/Late Tier II.

There's a slight power spike when you get to the level where wild shape to Elemental forms shows up.
We didn't get to the late Tier III so I am not sure how well that holds up.

I saw a Swashbuckler Rogue 13 / Warlock 2 who was scary effective, but she also had a ring of shooting stars.

[Deathtongue]

Treantmonk's Best L6 - 10 Subclasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKM2zRnuGrw

Treantmonk's Best L11 - 16 Subclasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lwhzyXTnVw

[KorvinStarmast]

Treantmonk's Best L6 - 10 Subclasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKM2zRnuGrw

Treantmonk's Best L11 - 16 Subclasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lwhzyXTnVw Ain't got the time to waste on badly made video productions. Can you summarize? This is a text based medium.

[Keravath]

The problem with best or most powerful is that the concept is subjective.

Does most powerful mean ..
- highest single target DPR
- most flexible
- best at skills
- most powerful AoE for dealing with crowds
- highest dpr melee combatant
- highest dpr ranged combatant
- has a tool for every situation
- something else?

Personally, I like the lore bard X/hexblade warlock 2 if skills are important or divine soul sorcerer X/hexblade warlock 2 for higher single target ranged damage while still checking off most of the boxes but I wouldn't necessarily declare either of those the "best or most powerful". Both eventually get wish if taken to level 20.

Another decent build is paladin X/warlock 2 and most of the paladin/sorcerer combinations. However, paladin 11 vs paladin 6/sorcerer 5 is something of a trade off. IDS helps with damage for a level 11 PAM paladin but that is an example of a character focusing on melee capability vs the additional 2 level 4 spell slots and spell selection from the paladin/sorcerer multiclass.

One thing to keep in mind is that specialized builds that are extremely effective at one thing can be useless at others. I find the melee DPR barbarian/champion fighter crit builds to be a prime example. With GWM and/or PAM they are very effective melee combatants but having played with a few they can be much weaker if faced with flying attackers or other opponents that they can't force into melee range. However, that comes back to how an individual decides to define best or most powerful.

[CMCC]

Treantmonk's Best L6 - 10 Subclasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKM2zRnuGrw

Treantmonk's Best L11 - 16 Subclasses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lwhzyXTnVw

These are just subclasses though - not builds. I would think multiclassing peaks in these tiers because it doesn’t have to deal with missing out on capstones.

[Frogreaver]

Nearly all of them. It mostly depends on what synergies well with your party and dm / campaign parameters.

That said, I think we can narrow this down a bit. By late tier 3, fullcasters will nearly always be the most powerful.

Early tier 2 a dpr focused martial is probably the most powerful.

[RogueJK]

"Most powerful" is very subjective.

But in general, in Tier 3 play, full spellcasters with their 5th/6th/7th level spells (and upcast lower level spells) will usually seem "more powerful" than nearly all Martial classes, with some exceptions like when a Rogue or Paladin goes full Nova. Even then, keep in mind that DPR isn't everything... A Smiting Paladin or Sneak Attacking Assassin may be able to wipe out one enemy in one big hit, but a caster can take a whole handful of enemies out of the battle with one control spell like Hypnotic Pattern, Mass Suggestion, or Wall of Force.



I had a Monk 1 / Druid(Moon) 10. Early Tier III/Late Tier II.

There's a slight power spike when you get to the level where wild shape to Elemental forms shows up.


Offset by Moon Druid's slight power dip in Tier 2 play just prior to getting Elemental forms, when the non-Elemental Wild Shape forms start to flag in power a bit.

Having played a similar Monk/Moon Druid to similar levels, I can attest that Combat Wild Shape is a little bit of a rollercoaster, with a big spike in "powerful feel" in Tier 1 (Bear form feels insane at Level 2), then waning a bit through Tier 2, then another spike in early Tier 3 from gaining Elemental forms. Luckily, the fact that you're also a full caster helps offset the slight intervening decrease in your Wild Shape combat effectiveness.

[Eldariel]

These are just subclasses though - not builds. I would think multiclassing peaks in these tiers because it doesn’t have to deal with missing out on capstones.

Depends on the multiclass. Some are still waiting to come online: e.g. Sorcadin or Sorcalock. But Cleric [or Hexblade/Artificer/Fighter/etc.] 1/Wizard X is pretty good here though I'm not sure it's actually better than a single-classed Wizard (probably not for most purposes). Indeed, I'm not sure multiclassing really is all that strong compared to top tier classes on this level range. Maybe in Tier 3 especially towards its later ends but even there you have to make do without 7th/8th level spells (which depending on the class can be a big loss).

This is also a huge range. Level 6 and level 15 are entirely different games with very little to do with one another. Level 6 characters have barely learnt to fly while level 15 characters can teleport and plane shift and talk to gods and all that nonsense.



I'd mostly agree with Treantmonk WRT Tier 2:
- Druid (especially Shepherd)
- Wizard (especially Diviner, Chronurgist, but most specialities get a great ability at 2 or 6)
- Sorcerer (especially Shadow, Divine Soul)
- Cleric (basically all of them but especially Arcana, Forge,
- Paladin (especially Ancients, Conquest)
- Bard (especially Lore, Glamour)

are all exceptionally strong classes on Tier 2, for different reasons. Warlock is also pretty darn good here otherwise but the "two slots"-deal really sucks. Even at the expected 2 SRs, you're looking at 6 slots per day while something like a Wizard has 9-15. Lower level slots continue to have extreme relevance due to spells that scale great meaning the fact that a Warlock has more highest level slots than a Wizard or even a Sorc isn't really that relevant.

For Tier 3:
- Wizard jumps up a lot. All the best level 6-8 spells are on the Wizard list. This isn't particularly close: this is the level range where Wizard is the furthest above.
- Clerics fall off probably the most. Their level 6-8 spells are probably the most disappointing and they're often still just upcasting their Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapons (they do have some good spells but nowhere near as good as the competition's; Conjure Celestial stands out).
- Druid gets some decent stuff compared to Clerics but is still nowhere near Wizard.
- Sorcerer surprisingly doesn't get most of the cool Wizard stuff and falls closer to Druid in terms of casting here (with Divine Soul offering precious little help).
- Bard begins making up for some of the spells they're missing out on via Magical Secrets.
- Paladin's retarded spell progression keeps hurting them far as smiting and such goes but they keep getting decent class features.
- Fighter finally gets their 3rd attack and becomes a comparatively efficient damage dealer.
- Barbarian gets next to nothing and begins falling off hard.
- Rogue class ends at level 11.
- Warlock finally gets their 3rd spell per SR for 9 per day and begins getting extra spells. Which is kinda nice but they still really, really overrely on those few spells they can cast.
- Monks finally begin to reach points where they have enough ki points to do Monk stuff all day. Unfortunately on these levels fewer and fewer enemies lack great Fort-saves. They finally get a decently strong class feature on level 14 (not as good as Paladin 6 but still something) too.
- Rangers actually pick up the pace a bit. Druid spells, while retarded, are still great and they're still not entirely useless as damage dealers either.
- Sorcadins and Sorcalocks and Palalocks and Sorcadinalocks and any Bard amalgamations begin to pick up the pace compared to their single-classed counterparts on this level range. I'd probably single out Sorcalock as the strongest of the bunch even if long resting due to the power of Flexible Casting + SR slot recovery (great for loading up for extra points over the day) but Sorcadins also get really good at this point.

Never seen an Artificer played on these levels so I can't comment on those other than they look like they do pick up the pace a bit on Tier 3 and become veritable party buffers with reasonable spellcasting.

[x3n0n]

For Tier 3:
...
- Monks finally begin to reach points where they have enough ki points to do Monk stuff all day. Unfortunately on these levels fewer and fewer enemies lack great Fort-saves. They finally get a decently strong class feature on level 14 (not as good as Paladin 6 but still something) too.


Agreed. One addendum on Monk: some subclasses add strong damage dealing options at 11 (Elemonk and Kensei) and others don't. Much like Barbarian, base Monk DPR suffers here compared to Fighter.

[cutlery]

If you're looking strictly at t2 and t3 lots of multiclasses come into play that would be awful to level normally.

At one extreme, a built for crits battlemaster3/whispers3/hexblade5/paladin2 first turns on at 8 or 11, and by 13 has a hefty set of smites or smite-like features that can be used on a crit (take bard to 5 after or before pal2).

But, you might be sitting around pretty lackluster until then, and if you delay the bard levels your skills and expertise don't kick in until really late. And, of course, if you use all your BI, sup die, and spell slots on critsmites you've burned most of your utility. Further, you aren't likely to have a lot of those slots until late tier 3, at which point you should compare to pure versions of those classes:

A blade warlock 13 or 15 has 3 6d8 smites per short rest, two attacks, lifedrinker, and 6th, 7th, and maybe 8th level arcanums and more ASIs

A paladin 13 or 15 has improved divine smite, more ASIs, and potentially a juicy oath feature, as well as c4332 spell slots (so, two 5d8 smites per LR).

A whispers bard 13 or 15 has 4 magical secrets, 1d12 inspiration die and psychic blades for 8d6, as well as 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells. Oh, and two doses of expertise (four proficiencies in total).

A level 13 or 15 battlemaster has more HP, their two bonus ASIs, second wind netting them at least 14-16 hp per SR, Relentless, 5-6 1d10 sup die, and indomitable.

Few of these pure classes will be able to put out quite as big a crit smite, but they can do so much more than that.

On the other hand, Tier 3 is when something like a shadowblade using arcane trickster 7-9 bladesinger 6 really shines bright: two attacks, 4 or 5d6 sneak attack die, and 4th or a 5th level slot to upcast with; though even then they're missing out on high level spells and SA die. It is a less painful path to get there from level 1, though, and are probably just as survivable as either pure class, between bladesong and cunning action.

So, I'd say a truly powerful multiclass in these tiers is one that loses little or nothing from at least one base class; and that's hard to do. You can make one that loses little of what you planned to use (I think for the AT/BS, extra attack and shadowblade upcasts are an even trade for higher level SA die, but I'd stop at wizard 6 or 7 and play it more like a rogue), but such a multiclass won't ever get blindsense or elusive, or spells above 4th or 5th level. It is, however, an interesting and possibly more capable melee combatant, with the spell slots for lots of neat tricks and decent sneak attack damage.

One might be tempted to add something like champion fighter to it, but this would feel terrible during leveling and probably only looks worth it in late tier 4 when you've comparing the crit range and action surge to 4th level spells (or blindsense), an ASI, and 2d6 sneak attack die.

TL;DR: I'm starting to wonder if it is ever worth it strictly from a power perspective. If you have a concept the classes don't fit, that's one thing, and there are few classes that mix well. But those are just different, not strictly speaking more powerful.

[Nhym]

Shepherd Druid is OP. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xXgYqPxkEHaCisQ0tteFF-KtsmfJxkOQojeWwHf22n4/edit?usp=sharing

[Eldariel]

TL;DR: I'm starting to wonder if it is ever worth it strictly from a power perspective. If you have a concept the classes don't fit, that's one thing, and there are few classes that mix well. But those are just different, not strictly speaking more powerful.

It's very hard to argue that multiclass would be better than the strong base classes. Wizard is the best example. It gets game-changing stuff every two levels in addition to extra slots and class features. Every level you spend in another class gives you alternative things to do but makes you worse at Wizarding, postponing that next game changing level. Thus it is at best a trade-off that's often losing (though there are some exceptions of course). The biggest exception is Tier 4 where casters already get 9th level spells and thus don't really care about any additional levels that much making things like Fighter 2 multiclass much more enticing (unless the character is a Moon Druid specifically, though the double "invocation"++ on Wizard 18 is also strong and Bards obviously need Bard 18 to get to the best 9th level spells).

[MaxWilson]

Title says it all. What do you got?

Feel free to discuss 1 and 4 too, but I wanted to focus the discussion a bit.

EDIT: interpret “most powerful” as you like. If that means most dpr to you then go with that. If that’s most well rounded or best control - then sure.

I just ask that you explain your thoughts and define the phrase “most powerful”.

In terms of raw adventuring power, ability to contribute to a party that will face many consecutive Deadly combat encounters without a long rest? I gotta go with Jorasco (Mark of Healing) Necromancer 6+/Life Cleric 1 here. Necromancers are notable for how early their shtick comes online (level 6), and how it stacks with itself without concentration requirements--because of the way the math works, 12 skeletons is about 9 times as powerful as 4 skeletons. On top of that add superb healing capabilities to counteract attrition in scenarios where skeleton armies aren't helpful (healing so good that even casting Shield is usually an inefficient use of spell points, relative to just accepting the damage and healing it later), plus the usual wizard stuff like crowd control, Teleport, and eventual Simulacrum (most broken RAW spell in the game, should not be allowed as written), and all of this on a chassis that is high-AC and not squishy.

It can't solve everything by itself, but I know of no single PC who brings more combat power to the table in T2-T3. (T1 is a little rough.)

For feats I recommend Mobile or Mounted Combatant to offset halfling slowness while enhancing Booming Blade damage. Other than that it doesn't matter.

[cutlery]

It's very hard to argue that multiclass would be better than the strong base classes. Wizard is the best example. It gets game-changing stuff every two levels in addition to extra slots and class features. Every level you spend in another class gives you alternative things to do but makes you worse at Wizarding, postponing that next game changing level. Thus it is at best a trade-off that's often losing (though there are some exceptions of course). The biggest exception is Tier 4 where casters already get 9th level spells and thus don't really care about any additional levels that much making things like Fighter 2 multiclass much more enticing (unless the character is a Moon Druid specifically, though the double "invocation"++ on Wizard 18 is also strong and Bards obviously need Bard 18 to get to the best 9th level spells).

Yep, even with something as straightforward as fighter1/hexblade5 -> fighter2, etc, it slows progression in cool stuff. You get some other cool stuff in return and that's nice (the ~+2 ac alone is potentially a huge boon depending on how combat runs at your table).

It seems easy at warlock 17 to ponder 3 levels of fighter, but on the way up there, every level of fighter pushes back foresight, extra pact slots, and lifedrinker by one level.

[Nhorianscum]

Title says it all. What do you got?

Feel free to discuss 1 and 4 too, but I wanted to focus the discussion a bit.

EDIT: interpret “most powerful” as you like. If that means most dpr to you then go with that. If that’s most well rounded or best control - then sure.

I just ask that you explain your thoughts and define the phrase “most powerful”.

To define "most powerful": The ability to perform a task better than any other build.

I'll be excluding silmulacrum and will be understating animate dead sillyness as in my experiance both as a DM and as a player the response to those is "sure, fireball, they're all dead now"

DPR builds that are less potent than a Hex1/Fi2 with wands of MM are excluded. Sorry, you've failed at your purpose.

My picks for top 4 in no particular order.

Sorcleric/Sorlock: This is about as good as it gets. You are simply the best generalist caster in the game when you go Nova. Extremely high everything with bar-none the most incomparable effects.

Druid (land or shephard): Just straight druid. This is the cream of the crop as far as utility casting goes and it's got a ton of flex to it.

Necromancer Wizard/Level 14+ illusionist: You do a dumb thing that is dumb.

Paladin: Straight up paladin, that aura is entirely incomparable and the chassis is never bad.

Honorable mentions:

Thief
AT
Every single fullcaster
EK

[MaxWilson]

It's very hard to argue that multiclass would be better than the strong base classes. Wizard is the best example. It gets game-changing stuff every two levels in addition to extra slots and class features. Every level you spend in another class gives you alternative things to do but makes you worse at Wizarding, postponing that next game changing level. Thus it is at best a trade-off that's often losing (though there are some exceptions of course). The biggest exception is Tier 4 where casters already get 9th level spells and thus don't really care about any additional levels that much making things like Fighter 2 multiclass much more enticing (unless the character is a Moon Druid specifically, though the double "invocation"++ on Wizard 18 is also strong and Bards obviously need Bard 18 to get to the best 9th level spells).

It really helps if you have a strong upcasting use for slots--e.g. a 9th level wizard has Wall of Force, but a Necro 8/Cleric 1 can use that 5th level slot to maintain 8 skeleton archers while spending a 4th level slot on Polymorph (for example). That breaks down briefly at level 13 because Simulacrum itself is so broken (doubles the power of the strongest PC in the party, which may potentially be infinite if that strongest PC themself has access to Simulacrum), but by 14th level the Cleric level is once again not painful. Then to a lesser extent it breaks down again briefly at level 17, but that's not in scope for this thread.