Arcane Trickster?

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

So, I'm playing a rogue looking to multiclass into wizard in order to take the Arcane Trickster PrC. My question is: is it worthwhile?

-Blue

[Temp]

I can't think of a better answer than "It depends."


Ask yourself what you actually gain from multiclassing. Compared to the five level investment and all the skill points and sneak attack you lose. It could be worth it, it very likely would be a waste of time. Dunno.

Going for Arcane Trickster from Rogue means you're going to be investing five or six levels before actually hitting the PrC.

I'd reccommend Unseen Seer, but I'm drawing a blank as far as its prerequisites are concerned. It's widely considered to be "Arcane Trickster--but better."

Taking Beguiler would be more beneficial for most Rogues than Wizard, but it wouldn't do anything to help you qualify for your class. If you want to shift your focus to spellcasting, maybe talk to your DM about trading a Rogue level for an extra Beguiler level each time you level up.

Thing is, you haven't given enough information for anyone to say and it's mostly a character concept thing anyway so you're not likely to gain any solid help.

[leperkhaun]

if your DM will allow it, you might consider trying to swapp your levels over to spell thief.....it sounds like it should have what you are looking for.

edit: not sure what book, but one of the books has rules for swapping classes.

[bugsysservant]

PHB II, I believe.

[Falrin]

Unseen Seer. Concidered the best Rogue/Wziard Around. (complete scroundel? complete mage?)

Daggerspell Mage. If you're focussing more on rogue, this is a very nice adition.
(Complete arcane)


Character I played in a 1 shot adventure:

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/ DSM 6

Feats:

1 Wpn Focus (Dagger)
1 TWF
2 Scribe Scroll
3 Empower Spell
6 Silent Spell
6 Improved Initiative
9 Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray)
12 Arcane Strike
15 Quicken Spell



Some Basic Spells:

SPELLS

Mage Armour
Grease !!!
True Strike
Chill Touch
Silent Image
Shocking Grasp

Scorching Ray
Invisibility

Thouch of Idiocy
Minor Image
Darkvision

Empowered Scorching Ray
Dispel Magic
Haste
Improved Invisibility
DD
Solid Fog



Basic Tactics:

Get invisible. Sneak behind Enemy. Arcane Strike/Empowered/Scorching Ray/Sneak attack him to death.

[Nowhere Girl]

So yeah, to answer the question the OP asked, rather than all of the ones the OP didn't ask:

Sure. I'd consider taking Practiced Spellcaster so you can end up with your caster level equaling your character level. You might also go ahead and burn the feats to get a level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight (you only need three rogue levels, so Practiced Spellcaster still keeps your caster level where you need it) and then also Darkstalker, but that's only if you really want to keep up the rogue end of your (basically) rogue/wizard.

Despite what a lot of people will say about HIPS, it's a magnificent ability because it's one of the few things magic cannot do. Invisibility is not the equal of HIPS combined with Darkstalker. One is easily countered with low-level spells which are also abilities for many creatures, while the other is virtually impossible to counter by any means short of high ranks in Listen/Spot. And all you need is a shadow somewhere within 10 feet? Shadows are everywhere. A blade of grass casts a shadow. A pebble casts a shadow. A crack in the ground casts a shadow. Even an ant casts a shadow. So with magic thrown in for good measure, you become the ultimate sneak who casts the spells that make the people fall down from somewhere in the darkness. (And people have to try to attack the darkness to hurt you. xD )

Or you can skip all of that, of course (and save four feats) and focus on metamagic and etc. instead, which makes you less rogue but more wizard. Either way, you end up with the best of skillmonkeying and spellcasting, with sneak attack progression and the ability to arbitrarily declare an attack (such as, oh, a chained "weaponlike" ranged touch attack spell) to be a sneak attack. Buuut you also take longer to get to those 9th-level spells, and you don't get the goodies you could have gotten in a strictly caster prestige class.

If you just want to know if it's viable, yes. Is it the ultimate super-godly zomg optimized perfect build put together using 300 different splatbooks and the perfect combination of ultimate spells and feats? No, I suppose not.

[Fishy]

Arcane Trickster is better for wizards who dip into Rogue than it is for Rogues who dip into Wizard, in my opinion. If I were starting from scratch, I'd do something like Rogue1/Spellthief1/Wizard5, taking the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel.

If you're feeling more roguey, though, you could possibly try 5 levels of Assassin and some way to get Mage Hand. Of course that requires an evil alignment, 14 int, sends Arcane Trickster's caster levels to Assassin instead of Wizard, and spending a feat on Extra Spell (Mage Hand) might well make other wizards laugh at you.

[Temp]

So yeah, to answer the question the OP asked, rather than all of the ones the OP didn't ask
Well, what can you say? There's not enough information to determine whether AT is worthwhile. It *can* be if there's a real reason for it. If it's just to follow the "Wizards are Invincible" craze, no it's probably not. I see no reason to jab at the other posters here.

If the question were to address the cause for taking Arcane Trickster like:
Is Arcane Trickster Worth it to boost my Wizard's Ray Damage?
--The answer would probably be "no."

If it were:
Is AT worth it to fill both the Skillmonkey and Arcanist roles in a party lacking both?
--The answer would probably be "yes, but it'll probably work best with Beguiler because Wizard can squander so many skill points that the Rogue levels go to waste."

If it were:
Is AT worth it to fill a Skillmonkey role in a party otherwise lacking one?
--The answer would probably be "Sure, as long as you can still provide skill points with Able Learner or Beguiler"

But generally "Is Arcane Trickster worth it?" questions will be answered with "no"s because of the Unseen Seer opportunity costs.

If, however, the question was "Is AT worth it for my single-class Wizard who took the Fighter Bonus Feat Variant and who picked up Shadow Jaunt through Martial Study at sixth level and Assassin Stance via Martial Stance at tenth level?" The answer would almost certainly be a "yes"

------------
So check out all that stealth-OP-answering [to the best of my abilities given the knowledge of context provided (none)].

[Fishy]

Of course, AT needs Mage Hand, which is a transmutation spell, so Beguilers have to work to get it. Which is a shame, because swift action feint+sneak attack is good times.

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

My reason for the interest is that the class appeals to me. My character is the sister of the PC mage, and they both attended wizard school together. My character didn't like being told "you're going to be a wizard" because she can be contrary like that, so she farted around, getting into mischief and in general thumbed her nose at the whole thing. She doesn't have anything against finishing off the training necessary to cast spells, she just wants to do it when she wants to do it, not because she was told that she had to.

Arcane Trickster seemed right up her alley. +1 spellcasting level each level, continued sneak attack progression and some pretty neat abilities didn't look to bad to me, but I'm not terribly good at figuring these details out. Practiced Spellcaster sounds like a good investment in any case. I'm not concerned about not getting to cast the 9th level spells because we already have a mage for that, in fact I was looking to go either specialist in illusion or enchantment, but I haven't been able to decide which schools to give up (conjuration and abjuration being right out because they provide two of my favorite spells: Mage Armor and Shield. I have to keep transmutation to get mage hand for Arcane Trickster too. Looks like evocation and necromancy are my only options, but it hurts me a little to give up my favorites in the evocation school unless I specialize in illusion and pick up shadow evocation. I could really care less about necromancy.)

The loss of five levels of sneak attack progression isn't that bad, considering that we're a melee heavy party already.

-Blue

[MariettaGecko]

It sounds to me like you have a good reason from a role-playing stance as opposed to from a roll-playing stance. It wouldn't likely be a terribly optimized thing to do, but it sounds like you might enjoy playing it. I'd say go for it!

[MeklorIlavator]

I would take a look at the complete arcane. Specifically, the Orb of <element> spells. They're in conjuration, and have attack rolls, and thus allow sneak attack. I think your character isn't really a great fit for the unseen seer(complete mage), especially with the reduced caster levels(gets better at divinations spells at expenses of everything else), but with some...creative level management, you can get a net loss of only one caster level, and I don't have either the authority of the knowledge to tell you what your character can or cannot do. The real key is to stagger the rouge levels and to buy cross class skills, so the feat that allows one to buy cross class skills at the same rate as class skills(though with the normal 1/2 limitation) would be excellent. This allows one to reach unseen seer at level 5 with 3 wizard levels and 2 rouge(though if you want to have more rouge levels, the skill requirements are easy). The real breakdown would be to have a rouge level at 1 and 5. This also eases you into arcane trickster, because you get more skills than a wizard(6+int, better skill list), and the casting requirements form the +1 level of existing spellcasting class. The only thing you'll have to check with your DM is if the Damage bonus that the unseen seer grants would qualify for the 2d6 sneak attack requirement of arcane trickster. If everything checks out, your only real constraint on when you may start arcane trickster levels are the skill requirements. My preferred entry level would be after level 10 due to the abilities you get at level 5 of unseen seer, but you are of course free to make any choice you want.

My only suggestion for your initial concept, if you choose to go that route would be to focus on one side, with either magic of skills to support the other. One way you could go about emphasizing the difference between the character and the others at the mage school would be a Sorcerer/rouge. This would necessitate a Charisma build for the rouge, but would show why he/she doesn't like to study or any of that book-stuff.

[Temp]

Since it fits RP-wise, go for it.

If you haven't actually started play with this character:

Check out the Spellthief class from Complete Adventurer and the Beguiler class from the PHB2 (Beguiler seems to match your concept almost exactly and is more powerful). Both would probably be more efficient than AT while still covering the imortant concepts. If you do want to go for a basic Rogue/Wizard, get Able Learner at first level. It makes multi-classing less difficult on your skill points.

The Chameleon Class can emulate a non-sneak attacking AT and has incredibly easy entrance requirements. Three levels Bard/Duskblade/Beguiler would be good, though, to qualify for Extra Spell (the feat that makes Chameleon powerful even without 7th+ level spells)

If you have been playing with this character:

Still check out Spellthief and Beguiler (Still strongly favoring Beguiler). They let you keep your skillpoints. As long as you have 6+Int skill points per level and a decent skill list, you'll never mangle your character too badly. Spellthief can't qualify for AT, but Beguiler can. Both would be competent characters without AT, unlike the Wizard.

Rogue 1/Swordsage 1/Wizard 5 with the Fighter Bonus Feat variant (For Assassin Stance) can qualify for AT a level earlier than normal. It probably needs Able Learner, though.

If you want the Core Wizard/Rogue route and you've already started with a Rogue, multiclass as soon as posssible to Wizard and try to come as close as possible to the minimum prerequisites (rog3/wiz5). The classes do so little to actually help each other's abilities that you need the quickest entry possible. This route hurts the same way Mystic Theurge hurts: You have some competence a skills and some at Wizard-ing, but not enough to keep pace with the rest of the group.

Feats to look at:
Practiced Spellcaster (Boost your CL a bit)
Obtain Familiar (If you don't go Wizard--That Rat/Toad/Whatever is just as skilled as you are.)
Master Spellthief (If you go Spellthief it gives you a decent CL)
Combat Expertise/Improved Feint (If you go Beguiler you can feint as a free action 1/round)
Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Deadeye Shot (Get sneak attack more easily with Rays)
Able Learner (Be able to Afford cross-class skills)

That's pretty much all I've got off my head.

[MeklorIlavator]

I would suggest that you leave off point blank shot and the like, because you will be targeting touch AC, which nine times out of ten is the weakest due to the limited number of things that can boost it. Statistically, you're better off with feats that don't give static bonuses.