Some help with fleshing out a quest?

[HoboKnight]

Heyya guys,

I hope you are all safe & healthy.

I'm currently preparing a quest for my party and I'd appreciate some comment on it.

My party is currently marching towards their certain death. Somehow, they are just not picking up all the clues I tossed at them and I came up with an idea of just whisking them to another location to prevent a TPK. They are travelling over a swamp and I'd like to toss a quest at them to place them next to a portal, that will suck them in and teleport them into some distant location.

Here is an idea: They are approached by several ghosts while traversing the swamp and interact with them. Point is, ghosts do not know, they are dead. Now, among them, there is a ghost that DOES know this and asks them to bring A to B (B being the portal). At this point, I have as a location, an abandoned temple in a swamp in mind. As they do this, portal sucks in all the ghosts ... and the party.

In a party, there is a succubus. So I wanted to play with "neckbeard wizard wants to summon a succubus cliche". Somewhere on Material plane, there is a young, fat wizard who wants to summon this demon and he does - just that she comes with her party members.

It will be "a coincidence" that his location will be in a city, where published campaign starts.

So I'm wondering how to shape A? What should they bring to the temple?

What should the ghosts' story be? Why do they approach PCs? It should not be for ghosts to approach with a quest request. Just one of them knows, they are dead. Ghosts are repeating something from their life, unknowingly.

Why is the "awakened" ghost unable to do deed himself(herself)?

Also I'd love a bit of ideas on the wizard. What is he like? (I like an idea of summoing circle in his basement - with his mum living in a floor above :D) I'd like to make Wizard lvl 1 and him having in his posession a one-time-only item that enables him to do the summoning. Any ideas?


That's it, thanks :)

[Amnestic]

Can you go into more details as to what TPK they're walking into and why?

I, personally, would be a bit miffed and offput as a player if we were on a quest and then out of nowhere summoned to an entirely different location without any sort of way around it.

[Unoriginal]

Can you go into more details as to what TPK they're walking into and why?

I, personally, would be a bit miffed and offput as a player if we were on a quest and then out of nowhere summoned to an entirely different location without any sort of way around it.

I have to second that.

Also what do you mean by "just not picking up all the clues I tossed at them"?

[KorvinStarmast]

I, personally, would be a bit miffed and offput as a player if we were on a quest and then out of nowhere summoned to an entirely different location without any sort of way around it. OUr DM did this to us about four years ago. We had just started at level 1 in a shared world where each of the three of us would DM for the whole party using an adventurers guild as the pivot point so that no DM burnout would occur. Session 1, as we escorted a convoy of wagons we got attacked by a horde of orcs and large beasts. Next thing we know, we are in a jungle dealing with zombies (that can't be turned by our cleric?) who are infecting various NPCs with a disease which our Paladin's lay on hands won't cure. It took us a while to realize that he was doing some kind of Walking Dead thing (I don't watch the TV show; it took my son explaining to me what was going on there for me to make the connection) and he kept having us roll for exhaustion every few hours ... just because, I guess.

And no way to get back to the adventurer's guild. Which left me and the other DM going "WTF?" That particular campaign the players do not recall fondly. Two of them just stopped showing up.

@HoboKnight: I do not understand at all this part of your question.

In a party, there is a succubus. So I wanted to play with "neckbeard wizard wants to summon a succubus cliche". Somewhere on Material plane, there is a young, fat wizard who wants to summon this demon and he does - just that she comes with her party members. Is she part of the PC party? Is she an NPC? Is the Wizard an NPC? Is there a reason that you don't use the Mage NPC for this? Or the Apprentice? (Volo's)

[Unoriginal]

Question: is this the same campaign than the one with your Ancient Black Dragon idea you've mentioned several times, HoboKnight?

[HoboKnight]

Question: is this the same campaign than the one with your Ancient Black Dragon idea you've mentioned several times, HoboKnight?
Yeah, that's the one. I wanted to present my party with a decent challenge, they can be really proud of, but ... they are just running into the flame like moths. I could make the black dragon benevolent, but ... I just do not want. Whisking away seems a better idea here.

[HoboKnight]

@HoboKnight: I do not understand at all this part of your question.
Is she part of the PC party? Is she an NPC? Is the Wizard an NPC? Is there a reason that you don't use the Mage NPC for this? Or the Apprentice? (Volo's)

She is a PC. Wizard is an NPC.


Is there a reason that you don't use the Mage NPC for this? Or the Apprentice? (Volo's)

I'll check them out, thanks. :)

[HoboKnight]

I have to second that.

Also what do you mean by "just not picking up all the clues I tossed at them"?

NPCs speaking of dragons' wrath, emphasising how incredibly stupid is to try to Bluff an ancient dragon, corpses strewn around (sort of Apoclypse now ambient) aaand ... nothing. These guys are totally "we're SOO gonna dupe this dragon, he he. Silly dragon. Let's bring him a stuffed doll instead of ordered sacrifice."

[HoboKnight]

Can you go into more details as to what TPK they're walking into and why?

I, personally, would be a bit miffed and offput as a player if we were on a quest and then out of nowhere summoned to an entirely different location without any sort of way around it.

They were supposed to spy on an ancient black dragon by joining her minions. They did. Immediately, they went off the rails by not doing the first mission they got, as they should. it's just that I'm used to playing with more ... say, careful and ... intelligent? players. These guys are like kittens to be tossed into a bonfire and I REALLY do not want to do that.

I think whisking away is more humane option :D

[Unoriginal]

They were supposed to spy on an ancient black dragon by joining her minions. They did. Immediately, they went off the rails by not doing the first mission they got, as they should. it's just that I'm used to playing with more ... say, careful and ... intelligent? players. These guys are like kittens to be tossed into a bonfire and I REALLY do not want to do that.

I think whisking away is more humane option :D

So players didn't follow your railroad and now you're trying to force them into a different railroad they can't get out off as easily.

They're *players*, not unpaid performers who have to act out the novel you've decided.

Frankly, given the utter contempt you have for them, both you and them would be happier not playing with each other anymore.

If you decide to stop treating the other people around the table like donkey feces, then my advice is a) apologize for treating them like donkey feces b) either let them walk into the TPK like they want to or have the dragon make clear she would normaly kill them on the spot but she needs a group of adventurers right now to perform a suicide mission where her draconic minions can't go (ex, Mount Celestia), and that if they don't do what she wants this time she will personally destroy [insert X village/town/city/place with a lot of people the PCs like].

[Amnestic]

Okay so there's some stuff to unpack here.


They were supposed to spy on an ancient black dragon by joining her minions. They did. Immediately, they went off the rails by not doing the first mission they got, as they should.

Some of the terms I've bolded are a little bit concerning, especially when combined with your solution in the first post. I don't want to make a lot of judgements without knowing every side but the way it comes across is that of extreme railroading, and now that the players are exercising agency, you're trying to take it away by teleporting them onto a new set of rails.

The fact that your players (whose levels/size you haven't specified) seem to believe they are in no danger from an ancient black dragon either means a) They are capable of winning. Without knowing their makeup, I can't say, or b) They believe that you will scale the encounters appropriately for them, essentially meaning they've *always* got a chance of victory and no fail states.

a) seems unlikely from the way you've phrased this, so to tackle the other option (and again, I'm making assumptions here) this may have come out of an incomplete or insufficient setting of expectations at the start of the game regarding lethality and player choice.

It's important to remember that the player's only window into your world is you. What you tell them and how you describe the settings both narratively and directly. What *you* know may not have been fully conveyed in a way they understood. You know this ancient black dragon will likely TPK them, but do they? If a snivvling minion of Joe Evilguy told me that Joe Evilguy is really scary then I might not take much notice either. He's a minion, of course he'd say that.

Were I in your position, I would scrap your proposal in this thread. I would tell the players, out of character, that if they follow through with their current plan they will likely get killed*, and then after that it's entirely up to the players to find a solution to their dragon issue. If they end up TPKing then they will have chosen to do so, no shame in that.

*I don't think there's anything wrong with telling players such information directly if it's the sort of thing their character would understand and recognise but perhaps hasn't sunk in for the player.

[Tawmis]

So... reading what you said...

First, as others stated, I would, as a player, be a little frustrated at suddenly being teleported away.

What I would do, in your shoes - if they're so sure they're going to dupe the Black Dragon - let them try.

If they fail, the black dragon does not have to outright kill them - maybe it summons the minions to capture them - suspects that his minions have been infiltrated by others and now wants to question the players - probably through torture.

Now the players are in cages, have to find a way to escape, and realize the danger they're in and the danger that the dragon poses.

That said, to answer why the ghost can't take item A to B - if you do go that route. Easy. Ghosts can't pick up something.

So maybe the 'Woke' Ghost is an Ancient Wizard, and the other Ghosts are people of an ancient time - the wizard did something that caused an explosion killing those around him.

That explosion tossed a gem that he needs returned so that the ghosts can be pulled into the After life. However, those living get shunted elsewhere if they're pulled in, since they're not dead.

[TigerT20]

So players didn't follow your railroad and now you're trying to force them into a different railroad they can't get out off as easily.

They're *players*, not unpaid performers who have to act out the novel you've decided.

Frankly, given the utter contempt you have for them, both you and them would be happier not playing with each other anymore.

If you decide to stop treating the other people around the table like donkey feces, then my advice is a) apologize for treating them like donkey feces b) either let them walk into the TPK like they want to or have the dragon make clear she would normaly kill them on the spot but she needs a group of adventurers right now to perform a suicide mission where her draconic minions can't go (ex, Mount Celestia), and that if they don't do what she wants this time she will personally destroy [insert X village/town/city/place with a lot of people the PCs like].

Hold on, why are you getting so aggressive with OP?

While a few aspects of this are concerning, yes, this could easily be just the fault of players.

Here's what we know:

- They are pretending to work for an ancient black dragon

- Their misison is bringing a sacrifice to said dragon

- They have chosen to try and dupe the dragon, depsite having been told by NPCs that this is certain death

This, to me, does not read like 'go my way or die'. This is more like 'players can come up with crazy schemes that, despite the odds, work. This is not one of those schemes. Please do not do this, you will die'

The part where they get whisked off without a say in the matter is a small railroad. I don't see any justification to say the whole thing is definitly evil however, nor that there is animosity between the players and DM. Hell, I quite like my players and yet will refer to them as leatherheaded (they also like to poke sleeping dragons with sticks)

[KorvinStarmast]

My party is currently marching towards their certain death. Somehow, they are just not picking up all the clues I tossed at them and I came up with an idea of just whisking them to another location to prevent a TPK. What level are they? This may be a great time for them to learn the fear that is associated with Ancient dragons. If they are not "intelligent" (as you suggest in subsequent post) then why are you unwilling to void the consequences for them being too obtuse to understand that an Ancient black dragon is a serious / deadly threat?

Give 'em enough rope and if the PCs die, they die. They will have made their own noose from the rope you provided. The players can roll up new characters.
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Or, the Black Dragon does not have to kill them.
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Fun things to do to the PCs without unleashing the acid breath:

Multiattack. The dragon can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 19 (2d10 + 8) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) acid damage.

Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d6 + 8) slashing damage.

Frightful Presence. Each creature of the dragon’s choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 19 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature’s saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon’s Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.

Legendary Actions
The dragon can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action
option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. The dragon regains spent
legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Tail Attack. The dragon makes a tail attack. (Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 17 (2d8 + 8) bludgeoning damage).

Wing Attack (Costs 2 Actions). The dragon beats its wings. Each creature within 15 feet of the dragon must succeed on a DC 23 Dexterity saving throw or take 15 (2d6 + 8) bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone. The dragon can then fly up to half its flying speed.
The bite, claw, tail, and Wing attacks can knock PCs to 0 HP without them dying. It is up to them to pass the three death saving throws. Or, the Dragon can choose to knock them out with these attacks. (I'd suggest you rule that the Wing attack is a melee attack/bludgeoning for purposes of this exercise). See Chapter 9, PHB, for the details on knocking out a character with an attack.

Once they are knocked out, the PCs get pushed into a pile and the Ancient Black dragon can wake them up. A conversation then follows along these lines: "You pathetic little rubes have annoyed me.
Here are your choices: either you do me this small favor {explain next side quest} or I'll dissolve you and rid the world of the annoyance of your existence."

Black Dragons, Ancient, have an INT of 16 and a CHA of 19. They are intelligent and forceful personalities; yes they are.

If your players decline the mission, melt them, and have them roll up new PC's.

Consequences for choices. That's the fun of RPG.
You'll note that using the above scenario guidelines, you end up getting to railroad them into the other quest anyway, but along the way they had a no-kidding "poop-your-pants" encounter with an Ancient Black dragon.

It will probably be memorable, and it may give them the motive to one day kick its butt when they are high enough level.