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Charles Phipps
2007-11-02, 09:07 PM
Okay, you're a LG Deva now and it's your job to re-evaluate Eugene now that his oath is fulfilled.

What's your take on his alignment now from what we've seen of the whole of his life and his current frame of existence.

What Outer Plane shall he spend all eternity on from this point on?

Good

Mount Celestial (Lawful GOOD)
Arcadia (LAWFUL Good)

Elysium (Neutral GOOD)
Bytopia (Neutral Gnomish Good)
Beastlands (NEUTRAL Good)

Arborea (Chaotic GOOD)
Ysgard (CHAOTIC Good)

Neutral:

Mechanus (LAWFUL Neutral)
The Outlands (Neutral Neutral)
Limbo (CHAOTIC Neutral)

Evil

The Nine Hells (Lawful EVIL)
Acheron (LAWFUL Evil)

Carceri (NEUTRAL Evil)
Gehenna (Neutral EVIL)

Abyss (Chaotic EVIL)
Pandemonium (CHAOTIC Evil)

silvadel
2007-11-02, 09:17 PM
First off the beastlands are chaotic GOOD, Celestia is LAWFUL GOOD, bytopia is lawful GOOD, arboria is CHAOTIC GOOD.

I am not going to bother correcting the evil planes.

I see Eugene as Lawful Neutral and bound for mechanus.

Corsair
2007-11-02, 09:23 PM
No doubt Bytopia.

wyattbatman
2007-11-02, 09:24 PM
im sorry but i need to lean towards lawful neutral. with all the speculation on roys younger brother showing obvious disregard for order but attempting to force his son into a very high-restriction class, he seem so be toeing the line. i say hes neutral good. although im not that good at judging character.:smallwink:

†Seer†
2007-11-02, 09:25 PM
Mechanus!!

Charles Phipps
2007-11-02, 09:38 PM
First off the beastlands are chaotic GOOD, Celestia is LAWFUL GOOD, bytopia is lawful GOOD, arboria is CHAOTIC GOOD.

I am not going to bother correcting the evil planes.

I see Eugene as Lawful Neutral and bound for mechanus.

I'm going off Wikipedia and I feel no need to argue specifics based on the ever changing nature of Planes from Planescape (2nd) to the Manual of the Planes and so on.

This is a shorthand and I'd appreciate you sticking to it.

The Extinguisher
2007-11-02, 09:46 PM
He's Lawful Good. He's obviously very lawful, and being a jerk isn't a explusion from being good, as we can see with Roy.

Eugene helps Roy, but likes it do be known that he was right. That's not bad. They obviously love each other, but they have the kind of relationship that could, at best, be described as a love-hate and at worst be described as sado-masochism.

He's projecting all the crap he got from his dad onto Roy, because Roy is very much like him. He also has been acting like this because he knows that if Roy was a wizard at that level, he would have stood no match. Xykon eats epic level wizards for breakfast.

Kreistor
2007-11-02, 10:05 PM
This thread is irrelevant. Eugene will not be re-evaluated. Only his actions on while alive affect his alignment. Pointless speculation.

Demented
2007-11-02, 10:06 PM
Pandemonium.
If for no other reason than to see his face when I... Oh, I'm an LG Deva now? Hm, this could get complicated. Maybe when I have access to the details of that little incident involving his son (no, his other son) I'll be able to kick him to Lawful Neutral and that'll be that.

Soups
2007-11-02, 10:11 PM
Assuming he was the same alive as he is dead, he seems quite selfish. Almost too selfish to be good. I peg him as a Lawful neutral. Hes almost chaotic, due to the fact he takes the easiest way out, seemingly whatever it takes, he thinks some rules are dumb. But only from the case of impersonating the LG Deva and forgetting about the oath on purpose. But 2 incidents shouldn't equal a whole lifes worth of alignment.

Lawful Neutral

Charles Phipps
2007-11-02, 10:12 PM
This thread is irrelevant. Eugene will not be re-evaluated. Only his actions on while alive affect his alignment. Pointless speculation.

There's no evidence to suggest that it doesn't.

Eugene could well be re-evaluated for the actions he took after death.

Swashbuckler
2007-11-02, 11:52 PM
Actually, after reading today's comic (#500), I'd have to say that Eugene's whiny antics put him firmly in the Lawful Pathetic camp. Next to Miko, he's got to be the biggest annoyance on the planet. Or in the Afterlife, all things considered.

Kreistor
2007-11-03, 12:09 AM
There's no evidence to suggest that it doesn't.

Eugene could well be re-evaluated for the actions he took after death.

Charles, I beg you re-read 495.

Panel 3.


Roy says, "Serves the crotchety old bastard right, if you ask me. He can rot in Hell for all I care."

Roy's Archon says, "I think we are past the point that would be a realistic possiblity."

Frankly, that puts the kibash on any chance he's not going to Celestia. You can twist what the archon says all you want so that it comes out however you want, but we've pretty much been told it's not possible for Eugene to go to Hell. If it's not possible for him to do anything bad enough to cause that result, then he's not going to get re-evaluated at all. I, for one, am not accepting any interpretation except the most blatantly obvious one -- Eugene is going to Celestia since he was already judged.

dragongirl13
2007-11-03, 12:14 AM
If I was the deva, I'd be smacking Eugene into the Outlands.

the mysterian
2007-11-03, 12:15 AM
mechanus, he isn't very good, a crappy father who needed to have reverse psychology used to help his son and agreed to alienate himself from his family, not evil, but definitely not good.

my_evil_twin
2007-11-03, 12:36 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the oath that was keeping him off the mountain. He has spent his time in the afterlife in the same state of mind that Roy is in now, too preoccupied with the affairs of the living to enjoy eternal rest.

Roy and Eugene are both, literally and metaphorically, at the bottom of the mountain. It's made Eugene bitter, and he may have ceased to be good, but that part of him might grow back given better circumstances. Otherwise, oath or no oath, he's probably staying right where he is.

Sotextli
2007-11-03, 12:44 AM
I don't see Eugene as either Good or Lawful. I'd say he's closer to true Neutral.

He focuses on one thing with great intensity, and ignores it once he becomes bored. A lawful person would see these things through, and if Eugene were lawful, his oath wouldn't even be an issue.

He obviously doesn't give a darn about his family, which is both Chaotic and non-good. He also doesn't give much credence to the feel for a law rather than the wording ("Till death do us part. Once I shuffle off the mortal coil, etc."). This strikes me as non-Lawful, but it's admitedly arguable.

He has little or no respect for anyone he sees as below him, which is definately not Good ("'Good' implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.").

Kdansky
2007-11-03, 01:36 AM
Not seeing things through: Chaotic.
Being selfish: Neutral.

If he was good, he'd make some self-sacrifices now and then. He really never does. If he was lawful, he'd not swear oaths and then abandon them. I don't rule out neutrality on the law/order axis or evil on the good/evil axis, but both seem rather unlikely.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-03, 02:14 AM
Frankly, that puts the kibash on any chance he's not going to Celestia.

Wait, THAT'S your evidence. That could mean that the Archon is saying...

* Eugene is doomed to damnation ALREADY for interfering in a Celestial Trial.

Or any number of other things.

And if you're saying that it's BLATANTLY obvious that there's no other interpretation, you're just dead wrong.

Mordokai
2007-11-03, 03:18 AM
I'm going Lawful neutral or True neutral on him, for the reasons already been presented. He never striked me as very Good, but he can be prety Lawful from time to time, with serious Chaotic streaks(rigged trial, anybody?). I was always sure that him being on Mount Celestia was more of a bureaucratic error than anything else. Hey, it could happen :smallsmile:

Messenger
2007-11-03, 04:15 AM
How did Eugene end up in Celestia in the 1st place if he's such a jerk? And I mean "jerk" in a moral sense.

He's harsh, selfish and oblivious to the concerns, perhaps even needs, of even his immediate family. He was irresponsible to the point of placing a really heavy burden on Roy- I mean, wouldn't a LG person take it upon himself to settle the Blood Oath and keep his family safe from its effects? If anything, one of the good things about LG characters is that they're martyrs in the best and most appreciable sense possible.

Come to think of it, I'd say just being Lawful is enough to make you want to deal with it responsibly, by yourself, rather than dumping it on someone. A Blood Oath is an oath, after all.

Take note: this is all after he was willing to bend and go around the rules to further his agenda.

And, c'mon, he keeps giving his son crap for it, no matter how hard Roy tries. The very fact that Roy is the one taking care of his problem rather than him (he didn't even try, according to the Deva's account) makes him a purely hypocritical judge of Roy.

Also, I wonder about intent: is his having Roy deal with Xykon and the Blood Oath motivated by him wanting to move on in the afterlife (rather selfish) or something nobler? At least Roy is doing it because Xykon's a threat to the world. I guess this is actually a rhetorical question since he originally abandoned his Blood Oath, seeing it as something trivial and dumb.

Eugene Greenhilt's quiet kind of selfishness, IMHO, borders on an Evil alignment as far as self-centeredness is concerned. It's the kind you see in real life- so I can't figure out why he's up there in the most stringent kind of afterlife in D&D.

I doubt he's Lawful, I really don't see how he can be Good. If he's Neutral, he's leaning too much towards Evil.

Sisqui
2007-11-03, 07:39 AM
I vote LN, going to Mechanus.

Also, why is everyone assuming he has already been evaluated? If he is being kept out of Celestia due to the blood oath, and if all of his previous deaths occured after he had taken it, would he ever have been to see the deva to begin with? I mean, he might just have gotten stuck up on the cloud every time, just waiting to be rezzed. Or is it stated somewhere that he already has gotten in?

Mordokai
2007-11-03, 07:53 AM
Or is it stated somewhere that he already has gotten in?

Considering the on on his face in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html)(last panel), no, he hasn't.

Kreistor
2007-11-03, 08:30 AM
Wait, THAT'S your evidence. That could mean that the Archon is saying...

* Eugene is doomed to damnation ALREADY for interfering in a Celestial Trial.

Or any number of other things.

And if you're saying that it's BLATANTLY obvious that there's no other interpretation, you're just dead wrong.


Roy says, "Serves the crotchety old bastard right, if you ask me. He can rot in Hell for all I care."

Roy's Archon says, "I think we are past the point that would be a realistic possiblity."

Okay, that is a completely impossible interpretation, Charles. Roy's Archon says it is not realistic to think Eugene is going to Hell. How can that possibly spin into "He's already going to Hell."

Besides, if Eugene knew he was already doomed, why work towards eternal punishment? He'd be working against the completion of the Oath to stay out as long as possible.

Oh, and while we're on the subject, do you have any evidence that he will be re-evaluated? I've got one statement that has a high probability of meaning Eugene will not be re-evaluated. So far, you have zero, zip, nadda, no sentence at all suggesting that re-evaluation is a possibility. I have a probable, and you have nothing to back you up at all. Even if you think my quote is weak, it's still infinitly better than the nothing that you are working with.

Sisqui
2007-11-03, 08:45 AM
Considering the on on his face in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html)(last panel), no, he hasn't.

That's what I thought. So, has he been evaluated yet? I mean, other than the deva saying "Due to the blood oath, you have to wait here". Did he actually go through the process yet or was he just told to hang out in the celestial waiting room every time?

And on a side note, if he was fast tracked during the evaluation process the first time he died (if he even went through it), does that evaluation stick? If he was iffy the first time and then got rezzed and crossed the line into LN, does he come back here for further processing? Surely they evaluate you after every death. It is probably possible to die, go to Celestia, get rezzed, die again, go to Mechanus, get rezzed, die and go back to Celestia depending on inter-mortem activities, don't you think?

Mr.Moron
2007-11-03, 08:54 AM
We don't know enough about him to make a fair judgment. We've only ever seem interacting with Roy, and only heard a tiny bit about his past from other members of his family. Certainly it's obvious the guy is on the grumpy side, and far from the ideal father, but we don't know much more about him. We have no idea how he has dealt with people outside his family, what his ideals are, or much about what he did day-to-day while alive.

The only really concrete thing we know about him his that he tends to dive into one task and pursue it with single-minded devotion, a lawful trait. That he gives up on them might be considered chaotic, if it wasn't for the fact the he always give up on them to pursue something else in same devoted fashion.


Really though, not enough information.

Fussy
2007-11-03, 08:58 AM
Beastlands or Arcadia.

Although roy seems to assume he will go to Celestia, and he knows him better than we do.

Celestia gets my vote.

Dunamin
2007-11-03, 10:15 AM
Beastlands or Arcadia.
What's your reasoning? :smallconfused:

The Beastlands is halfway between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, while Arcadia is halway between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good.
If you think he is Lawfully inclined I could understand Arcadia, or Chaotically inclined I could understand the Beastlands, but not both simultaneously.

Holammer
2007-11-03, 10:27 AM
I'd say lawful cranky. Him and Roy are so much alike it's a mean streak that runs in the family. Whenever Roy opens his mouth about the old man he near betrays his alignment. They both got issues to resolve, once that's done and Xykon is a goner. I expect him to pass (for real yo!) as lawful good.

Kish
2007-11-03, 10:49 AM
What's your reasoning? :smallconfused:

The Beastlands is halfway between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, while Arcadia is halway between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good.
If you think he is Lawfully inclined I could understand Arcadia, or Chaotically inclined I could understand the Beastlands, but not both simultaneously.
Look at the first post. By Charles' system, saying "Beastlands or Arcadia" would indicate "Eugene is small-good, and either Lawful or Neutral on the law/chaos axis."

(Disclaimer: I am merely explaining why Fussy's post goes off different associations for the planes than those most common in D&D, neither endorsing nor condemning, mainly because I look askance at anyone who presumes planes Rich hasn't specifically mentioned exist in OotS.)

Charles Phipps
2007-11-03, 04:19 PM
Oh, and while we're on the subject, do you have any evidence that he will be re-evaluated? I've got one statement that has a high probability of meaning Eugene will not be re-evaluated.

Your statement, I'm FLAT OUT saying is insufficient evidence.

The Extinguisher
2007-11-03, 04:32 PM
And yet, no evidence for your side.

0.0001 is still > 0.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-03, 06:12 PM
And yet, no evidence for your side.

0.0001 is still > 0.

Yes, I'm arguing that it's open as a point of discussion.

Also, that means zilch because the Giant "Changes the Rules" at will.

Just like with Roy able to visit Heaven.

David Argall
2007-11-03, 07:10 PM
So, has he been evaluated yet? Did he actually go through the process yet or was he just told to hang out in the celestial waiting room every time?


SOD After dying of old age, Eugene gets the LG evaluation and gets a passing grade [apparently easier than Roy does], until the blood oath comes up and sends him to the clouds. Technically this does not say he automatically will get in as soon as the oath is taken care of, but that is very much the impression. Add in the comments from the strip and we can pretty much say any claim of a non-LG destination for Eugene is based on "I don't like Eugene. Therefore he can't go to Heaven."

Charles Phipps
2007-11-03, 08:48 PM
Actually, my argument is that Eugene was probably a perfectly LG guy in life. My argument is that he's increasingly moved away from that as time passes from when he was denied Heaven.

Silverain
2007-11-03, 08:57 PM
I'd put him at True Neutral, personally. He breaks his own promises frequently enough to be non-Lawful, and I don't think he's all that Good.

Julia's neutral, too. You could certainly argue that alignment doesn't run in families, but hey ... maybe it does, since even Roy's little brother (who wasn't old enough to make his own choices when he died) wound up in the LG domain.

... or then again, maybe Eric wasn't LG to begin with ... maybe he just got shuffled over there because his grandfather was his nearest relative. Who knows. What happens to toddlers when they die?

Kreistor
2007-11-04, 11:09 AM
Your statement, I'm FLAT OUT saying is insufficient evidence.

That's a great opinion, but the fact is those statements can be interpreted the way I have done so. You are allowed to believe that it is not intended to be interpreted that way, but that is merely you trying to interpret what is in the mind of the Giant, not the interpretion of the words on the page.

Oh, drat! I have more evidence that people stuck outside their realm get to move directly to the place of their judgement, without re-evaluation.

464.1.4. Soon says, "Even now we are fading to the Celestial Realm."

We know from 490.2.9 ("Welcome to the Celestial Plane.") that the Celestial Plane is the LG post-evaluation afterlife.

Soon and others (since he says "we") fades directly to the LG plane, without being judged for his actions in the Throne Room.

So that's two for my side. And, gee, only speculation on yours. Do you actually have something to back up your belief?

Sylian
2007-11-04, 11:49 AM
Roy thinks that Eugene is Lawful. However, Eugene gave up his quest too fast. SPOILER FOR START OF DARKNESS: He knew where Xykon where but didn't attack him. Instead, he went back to Roy and lied about it. Eugene lies a lot, from what we have seen.

Personally, I'd put him as Neutral, but he's more likely Lawful Neutral.

factotum
2007-11-04, 12:40 PM
Roy thinks that Eugene is Lawful. However, Eugene gave up his quest too fast.

He gave up his quest after he already had a wife and family to worry about. Is it Lawful to go running off after evil when you have a young child and another one on the way? Also, not only Roy thinks Eugene is Lawful--Sara does, too, and presumably so does the deva who did Eugene's "test" to enter Mount Celestia, because the only problem he brought up was the Blood Oath.

In fact, that last one is proof positive that Eugene is LG as far as the powers of OotS-world are concerned, and since they make the rules, that's about as definitive as it gets...

Dalboz of Gurth
2007-11-04, 03:12 PM
The intentions of your resulting actions are a major contribution to the determination of alignment.

Eugene didn't give up his quest because he had a family and was thinking of their welfare. He gave up his question because he got tired and bored with it.

That puts him 1 mark closer to neutral. If he's lawful or good it's only because he barely fulfills the requirements necessary for it, and does not actually fulfill the spirit of it. But a player who'd play that type of nonsense in my campaigns would definitely have a couple of marks toward neutral on his scales.

The powers of OoTS are clearly in doubt as to his nature, otherwise they wouldn't have stuck him in noman's land for so long. If he had been unquestioningly Lawful Good then he wouldn't be stuck there. His actions of Breaking his Oath prevented him from entering the gates. If someone else fulfills the oath then he will move to his review session and probably will enter. If no one fulfills the oath then he'll never enter the gates. That's definitely on the cusp, bud.

Moriato
2007-11-04, 03:34 PM
When Eugene was telling Roy where they were, he said it was "where the souls of recently deceased folks of good alignment come to be judged". He only says good, not lawful good.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

In fact...

No one ever said he'd be getting into Celestia after the oath was fulfilled. Maybe he hasn't even been judged yet, or been judged and told that he's going to one of the other "good" afterlifes. That may well be why he so easily and quickly agreed to never go see his wife and other son again. He already knows he's not going to Celestia anyway.

factotum
2007-11-04, 04:19 PM
The intentions of your resulting actions are a major contribution to the determination of alignment.

Eugene didn't give up his quest because he had a family and was thinking of their welfare. He gave up his question because he got tired and bored with it.


I don't think there's any proof of that. It's entirely possible that, when Roy was born, Eugene gave up his oath to look after his family, and by the time he had any inclination to take it up again, it just didn't seem worth it. In any case, the point I made about the Deva who tested Eugene still stands--the Powers that Be were quite willing to let him into Celestia, and it's only the unfulfilled Blood Oath that stopped him.

Dalboz of Gurth
2007-11-05, 10:28 AM
We have proof that his father gave up his blood oath because of other interests:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

As you can clearly read inpanels 6 and 7 he gave up not because he had children, but because he just didn't want to finish it.

Not only that but the angel person clearly chastises the father because he didn't "give up the blood oath for good reasons"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html

Eugene clearly gave up his blood oath because he had no interest in it. This is stated as the main reason why Eugene hasn't been processed. This has been stated as the main reason by the mother why Eugene is irritated, self absorbed, and grumpy.

IF Eugene is Lawful it's only because he barely made it over the bar. Being barely over the bar is not something to pride yourself on. He's a punk. Quite frankly, if he were a player in one of my games he'd have had at least one major alignment check due to the whole blood oath thing.

Libra
2007-11-05, 10:42 AM
I'd say his alignment is. . .Human.

The man has made mistakes, he has quite clearly failed to live up to a Blood Oath, yet imposes it upon his son, he's hijacked a being of Pure Law and Good, but on the other hand he has at least tried to help Roy stop Xykon and he seems to have genuinly loved his wife, even if only for the duration of his mortal life.

I'd say that if he cleans up his act and helps stop Xykon he can scrape into Lawful Good Heaven, even if only for the odd visit to see his younger son.

Purgatory is a means to redemption, not eternal punishment, after all.

Messenger
2007-11-05, 11:50 AM
I'd say his alignment is. . .Human.

The man has made mistakes, he has quite clearly failed to live up to a Blood Oath, yet imposes it upon his son, he's hijacked a being of Pure Law and Good, but on the other hand he has at least tried to help Roy stop Xykon and he seems to have genuinly loved his wife, even if only for the duration of his mortal life.

I'd say that if he cleans up his act and helps stop Xykon he can scrape into Lawful Good Heaven, even if only for the odd visit to see his younger son.

Purgatory is a means to redemption, not eternal punishment, after all.
It's only Purgatory if the folks running Celestia say so. Purgatory implies that he's being punished but otherwise is going up the mountain anyway when it ends.

But we don't know that. That Eugene is acting so far away already from being LG is making all us readers doubt it's going to be that straightforward for him if/once the Blood Oath is fulfilled. Many of us are of the opinion he's in for a reevaluation and for very valid reasons.

And let's note Roy's words: "But if everything you've been through with Mom and Eric and Grandpa and the literal forces of the cosmos hasn't made you want to be a better man, I doubt a one-liner from me is going to do the trick."

Part of punishment is repentance, recognizing your faults. Eugene isn't showing any of that at all, despite the hurt he's inflicted. His wife, his two sons (one of which died a boy), his father, even the very heavens weren't enough for him to concern him with his own flaws as a human being. He wasn't even fazed by the idea of eternal separation from these people! He's just that selfish and arrogant.

Remember: this is why Miko wasn't destined for Celestia with the rest of the LG Sapphire Guard. Miko at least desired to serve the gods and Azure City, no matter how much harm she did and how fanatical she was- Eugene is out for himself only.

Oslecamo
2007-11-06, 06:53 AM
It's only Purgatory if the folks running Celestia say so. Purgatory implies that he's being punished but otherwise is going up the mountain anyway when it ends.

But we don't know that. That Eugene is acting so far away already from being LG is making all us readers doubt it's going to be that straightforward for him if/once the Blood Oath is fulfilled. Many of us are of the opinion he's in for a reevaluation and for very valid reasons.

And let's note Roy's words: "But if everything you've been through with Mom and Eric and Grandpa and the literal forces of the cosmos hasn't made you want to be a better man, I doubt a one-liner from me is going to do the trick."

Part of punishment is repentance, recognizing your faults. Eugene isn't showing any of that at all, despite the hurt he's inflicted. His wife, his two sons (one of which died a boy), his father, even the very heavens weren't enough for him to concern him with his own flaws as a human being. He wasn't even fazed by the idea of eternal separation from these people! He's just that selfish and arrogant.

Remember: this is why Miko wasn't destined for Celestia with the rest of the LG Sapphire Guard. Miko at least desired to serve the gods and Azure City, no matter how much harm she did and how fanatical she was- Eugene is out for himself only.

Hmmm, I don't know if you remember, but...MIKO KILLED HIS OWN MASTER, AT COLD BLOOD, AND THEN WENT INTO A RAMPAGE, WICH ENDED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF THE GATE AND THE DEFEAT OF THE SAPHIRE GUARD, PLUS ALLOWING XYKON TO ESCAPE.

Eugene may be a jerk. But at least he doesn't go around killing his good aligned superiors and ruining entire nations. He may be selfish and arrogant, but then so is Roy. He's in the waiting grounds of the good people, and the only reason he can't enter it's because of the oath. Heck, there was even another person in there who also was stuck due to some blood oath.

Let's see what he did in life:

-Made a women happy for several years.
-Was part of a party dedicated to fighting evil.
-Took care of his family and assured Roy and his sister the best education money could buy.

Yeah, sounds soooo evil to me. Heck, I would like to live in a world where all people were this evil.

Then, even after dead, he used his powers to give valuable advice to Roy and the party. He persuaded the lord of the saphire guard to help them.

Many people here say he does things only for himself. But the fact is, ALL his actions thus far wielded good results for the good guys. While Roy's arrogance more than once almost lead the party to a wipe(and ended with is own death, the irony).

Or has our mentality dropped so much? You want to throw a man in the fires of hell after he spent his life doing good just because his social capacities suck?

Studoku
2007-11-06, 08:14 AM
MIKO KILLED HIS OWN MASTER
Miko is female. Unless of course you believe the gender threads.


AT COLD BLOOD
Killing in cold blood implies a pre-meditated murder for personal gain. Miko killed Shojo because she was really really pissed off.


AND THEN WENT INTO A RAMPAGE, WICH ENDED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF THE GATE
During said rampage, only evil creatures (with the exception of Miko herself) were harmed. Destroying the gate prevented Xykon from accessing it. Perhaps if she'd waited then Soon might have destroyed it but she couldn't have known that.


AND THE DEFEAT OF THE SAPHIRE GUARD, PLUS ALLOWING XYKON TO ESCAPE.
The saphire guard were going to be defeated anyway. After Redcloak charged the breach in the wall, there wasn't really any way to save the city that didn't involve Gandalf showing up.

Kreistor
2007-11-06, 10:15 AM
During said rampage, only evil creatures (with the exception of Miko herself) were harmed. Destroying the gate prevented Xykon from accessing it. Perhaps if she'd waited then Soon might have destroyed it but she couldn't have known that.

Hinjo was almost killed. He was never even close to evil, even in Miko's eyes, so yes, she did harm a Lawful Good person in her "rampage". Her explanation justifying her attack is less than stellar -- she denies him because she doesn't trust the court system, not because he is evil.

WuanAnselm
2007-11-06, 10:42 AM
SOD After dying of old age, Eugene gets the LG evaluation and gets a passing grade [apparently easier than Roy does], until the blood oath comes up and sends him to the clouds. Technically this does not say he automatically will get in as soon as the oath is taken care of, but that is very much the impression. Add in the comments from the strip and we can pretty much say any claim of a non-LG destination for Eugene is based on "I don't like Eugene. Therefore he can't go to Heaven."


I would put him as TN now, because of the reasons that other people have mentioned and because he and Julia seem so alike, but I can't ignore that piece of evidence in SoD, LG afterlife then, was he much of a different person while he was alive?