What's a good 4th party member here?

[EphTheorem]

Just wanted some class ideas to fill in a fourth party member. The group has a Moon Druid with Sentinel and Resilient, (Con) they want to play kind of like a tank, keeping the heat off others while they're Wild Shaped. A Way of Shadow Monk, and one player that definitely wants to play a spellcaster, (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Warlock, Bard) just undecided about which at the current moment.

What are some options that round out the party well in your opinion?

[MaxWilson]

Opinion: you need a ranged combat specialist. Could be a Bardlock, or a Hexblade 2/Diviner, or a Sharpshooter Fighter, but... you need someone who can inflict massive pain from 200 yards away.

[Baldin]

As mentioned above, you are missing a ranged specialist, however you also have just 1 frontliner.

If the bloodhunter is available to you I would like to point to the Bloodhunter Lycantrope. I played him as a ranged character (sharpshooter, xbow expert), but you have the option to go into hybrid form to change into a frontliner.

Cheers
Baldin

[Xeko]

I don't necessarily agree that you NEED a ranged specialist, especially if the casting party member hasn't made a decision yet (they may well end up a ranged blaster themselves)... however, it's a solid choice either way, and if you do decide to make a ranged specialist, The Sharpshooter Feat and the Precision Strike combat maneuver from the Battlemaster Fighter subclass go really well together.

[Eldariel]

Well, you frontline is well and truly taken care of by the Druid and you have a reasonable amount of caster muscle already. Thus you can play pretty much anything here: obviously something like a Wizard or a Sorcadin is pretty much never amiss.

Cleric would be great if the last player doesn't go that way (and even if they do; Clerics stack nicely): an additional burly frontliner who can also cast spells to make enemies fall down and brings a lot of defensive and general utility to the table while at it. Alternatively Pally could also do a similar job: less utility and worse control but a lot of numeric power to the party.

Of course, Bard/Wizard is always a good addition to a party and even a second Druid could be pretty strong. There's something to be said for Sorc in this level range as well.

Basically any class can work tho. But optimally you'd probably coordinate with the other undecided player and make two different caster at least one of which can cast Healing Word.


Xbow Expert Swords Bard could be great here (with or without Fighter dip for Archery style) as well as SS Bladesinger. These fit all the holes in the party at once. Some kind of long range Cleric could also work out reasonably well (Arcana wouldn't be bad for instance).

[Waazraath]

I miss skills, especially social, if the caster doesn't go bard (warlock can get 2 extra skills with an invocation as well, but missess expertise). I agree with posters above that most other bases seem to be covered, but to give the most concrete advice, I think we need to know what player 3 plays exactly. There's a huge difference between what e.g. a lore bard, tempest cleric or blastlock bring to the table.

[EphTheorem]

Thanks for all the suggestions, and I will do that. I'll talk to that player and see if they're inclined toward a direction yet and let you all know.

Keep 'em coming, I love seeing all the opinions and ideas you guys have.

[Gtdead]

This is too dependent on the spellcaster choice.

Druid and Monk aren't dpr machines, so if your caster goes lore bard, your sustained damage will be pretty low, but if he goes dragon sorcerer/warlock/bladesinger, it would be ok. If not, you will probably need something like a martial.

Druid is versatile in social situations, and stealth/perception are probably covered, but you lack a face/knowledge guy. Face is more important than knowledge usually. If player picks non knowledge cleric or wizard then you will need something that can take care of it like any CHA class or Rogue.

You don't have a good support class yet since druid can't do everything. I believe arcane support is more important than divine support. If your caster picks sorcerer (especially divine soul)/wizard/bard he will cover this. If he picks cleric or warlock you will need one of the other 3 classes (I think divine soul is the optimal choice).

My preferences would be:
If Wizard (non bladesinger) -> Paladin / If Bladesinger -> Paladin/Divine Soul Sorcerer
If Sorcerer -> Paladin/Fighter/Ranger
If Warlock - > Wizard/Sorcerer
If Cleric -> Sorlock/Sorcerer/Warlock
If Bard -> Paladin/Fighter

[Bobthewizard]

Not that you need a lot of healing in 5e, but having a couple party members with either healing word or cure wounds would be good. If the last party member doesn't take cleric or bard, I'd make one of those. If they take cleric or bard, then either a wizard for utility or a ranged specialist, my favorite being gloom stalker ranger, especially if revised ranger is on the table.

Mostly though, just play what you want. Everything works in 5e.

[Eldariel]

This is too dependent on the spellcaster choice.

Druid and Monk aren't dpr machines, so if your caster goes lore bard, your sustained damage will be pretty low, but if he goes dragon sorcerer/warlock/bladesinger, it would be ok. If not, you will probably need something like a martial.

Druid is versatile in social situations, and stealth/perception are probably covered, but you lack a face/knowledge guy. Face is more important than knowledge usually. If player picks non knowledge cleric or wizard then you will need something that can take care of it like any CHA class or Rogue.

You don't have a good support class yet since druid can't do everything. I believe arcane support is more important than divine support. If your caster picks sorcerer (especially divine soul)/wizard/bard he will cover this. If he picks cleric or warlock you will need one of the other 3 classes (I think divine soul is the optimal choice).

My preferences would be:
If Wizard (non bladesinger) -> Paladin / If Bladesinger -> Paladin/Divine Soul Sorcerer
If Sorcerer -> Paladin/Fighter/Ranger
If Warlock - > Wizard/Sorcerer
If Cleric -> Sorlock/Sorcerer/Warlock
If Bard -> Paladin/Fighter

One important thing to note here: if the third player doesn't go Cleric or Lore Bard, the party completely lacks access to Revivify. Which is just a massive spell as soon as it comes online as it completely changes fight dynamics. Same goes with many kinds of status removal; Druid can do some but much of the important ones are on Cleric list only (Pally can also do some but much worse than a Cleric). As such, if they go Wiz/Sorc, I'd definitely put Cleric near the top of the list - you really want a second Healing Word user to yoyo the Druid should they go down (they're in the frontline so this is super-important) and Revivify in case they get focused down to death. Many classes can yoyo but only Cleric comes with the full package of status removal and resurrection magic (though Mark of Healing Halfling allows for any caster to do this; Mark of Healing Wizard would thus also work perfectly well).

Optimally you thus want the long range + the support magic + the arcane support magic. Long range isn't that important; the party isn't a long range party no matter how you swing it so even if you build a super long range killing machine, the party will want to avoid engaging at long ranges and you alone will still not kill a CR-appropriate Dragon at extreme ranges no matter how good your DPR is since the rest of the party can't contribute. Thus I think that consideration is secondary to being able to ensure you won't have to fight at long ranges (e.g. Dimension Door is a great spell to this end). Which is why I'd consider a Cleric; even Arcana Cleric with Spell Sniper can only fight at 240' and that in a mediocre manner but it brings a set of other good tools to the table that covers other bases and the range issue is something you'll want to solve in another means anyways.


All of this leads me to consider range a somewhat secondary consideration to the other two, though it's still definitely useful.

[nickl_2000]

Personally I would say a Paladin/Bard of a Paladin/Sorcerer (depending on the other caster). One will give you more skills, the other will give ranged attacks and more melee damage. Either way you can be an additional tank for when the Moon Druid is knocked into caster form, and you can use your charisma based skills. If you choose divine soul sorcerer, you are also an effective healer.

[Gtdead]

One important thing to note here: if the third player doesn't go Cleric or Lore Bard, the party completely lacks access to Revivify. Which is just a massive spell as soon as it comes online as it completely changes fight dynamics. Same goes with many kinds of status removal; Druid can do some but much of the important ones are on Cleric list only (Pally can also do some but much worse than a Cleric). As such, if they go Wiz/Sorc, I'd definitely put Cleric near the top of the list - you really want a second Healing Word user to yoyo the Druid should they go down (they're in the frontline so this is super-important) and Revivify in case they get focused down to death. Many classes can yoyo but only Cleric comes with the full package of status removal and resurrection magic (though Mark of Healing Halfling allows for any caster to do this; Mark of Healing Wizard would thus also work perfectly well).

Optimally you thus want the long range + the support magic + the arcane support magic. Long range isn't that important; the party isn't a long range party no matter how you swing it so even if you build a super long range killing machine, the party will want to avoid engaging at long ranges and you alone will still not kill a CR-appropriate Dragon at extreme ranges no matter how good your DPR is since the rest of the party can't contribute. Thus I think that consideration is secondary to being able to ensure you won't have to fight at long ranges (e.g. Dimension Door is a great spell to this end). Which is why I'd consider a Cleric; even Arcana Cleric with Spell Sniper can only fight at 240' and that in a mediocre manner but it brings a set of other good tools to the table that covers other bases and the range issue is something you'll want to solve in another means anyways.


All of this leads me to consider range a somewhat secondary consideration to the other two, though it's still definitely useful.

These are great considerations. I think the healing word issue can be worked around with a familiar and potions. But you are absolutely right about revivify. Divine Soul will most likely not get it and I'm not a fan of suggesting very nuanced builds (like Mark of Healing).

I'm sold on Arcana Cleric. He brings okish damage and staying power, revivify and spellbreaker.

As for damage: I think that maximizing damage is important on a strategic level. More damage means less rounds which means less chances to die and this party lacks in damage. It's a very "macro" thing but really works. However it requires a lot of optimization. Also it's way easier to apply this rule to white room analysis/video games rather than PnP where the individual skill and combat awareness matters. I do however think that the ability to force the enemy to come to you through superior range is a very good tactical option that can applied easily.

[carrdrivesyou]

I might suggest a DEX based paladin. Use a rapier and light armor, take the alert feat, and the dueling fighting style. you will have a +10 to initiative, solid to hit and damage modifiers, a good spell selection, a healing pool, stealth, and plenty of other neat tricks. Be everywhere the party needs you to be without getting dropped immediately. best part is you can pick up a bow and still contribute to the fight in a meaningful way.

[Frogreaver]

No level given makes this hard. Are you starting at level 1? At level 20? Somewhere in between?

[Joe the Rat]

With a tanker, a mobile melee striker, and an unknown caster, I'd go Rogue or Dex Fighter.

If your ambivicaster makes a good support or generalist caster? Focus on ranged.
If your caster settles into a primarily blasty configuration, you can go melee.

And really, you can do either well. Rogue has zero need for specialization at 1 - you can show up with two shortswords and a crossbow, and you are ready to go.
Dex Fighter is a Longbow and either a rapier & shield or a pair of blades. Pick the fighting style you will need primarily (Archery, Duelist, TWF), but you are readily able to flex to the other. If you absolutely, positively cannot settle on one, take Defense.

If they definitely aren't Bard, do Rogue, or take Half-Elf or Kenku (or be a Half-Elf Rogue) for skill monkeying. You can cover whatever is needed - Knowledge and Social are the up-in-the-air areas (but a touch of stealth/perception can help Team Quiet Guy and Tiny Animal on scouting if needed).

You have a few levels to figure out what is needed most, and can upgrade gear and pick archetypes and feats to support.

On the assumption that the party is already at 2 Feats levels (folks have a tendency to talk about builds even if they are starting at 1), Variant Human, Crossbow Expert, Artificer 2, and level up in your preferred mode from there. Shield, Hand Crossbow with Repeating Infusion, and you are equally effective 0-30', 0-120' once Sharpshooter fits in. Infusions give you some added flexibility to support the party - magic your shield for more defense, or make a Returning Spear to give the monk a little more flexibility.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just wanted some class ideas to fill in a fourth party member. The group has a Moon Druid with Sentinel and Resilient, (Con) they want to play kind of like a tank, keeping the heat off others while they're Wild Shaped. A Way of Shadow Monk, and one player that definitely wants to play a spellcaster, (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Warlock, Bard) just undecided about which at the current moment.

What are some options that round out the party well in your opinion?
I suggest Rogue or Ranger. If the latter, take the archery fighting style.

I think you need a skill monkey, unless the final aracne caster is a bard. If that is the full caster pick, I'd say Ranger to complement the bard's spells and offer ranged. Any other caster? Go rogue for skill monkey role .

[kaervaak]

Battlesmith Artificer would be a good choice here. Crossbow expert and sharpshooter with repeating shot infusion on a hand crossbow is a nice damage set up. Plus you can front-line, protect the squishies with your steel defender, help with int skill checks, and you're a master of tools (thieve's tools expertise at level 6!).

[MaxWilson]

Optimally you thus want the long range + the support magic + the arcane support magic. Long range isn't that important; the party isn't a long range party no matter how you swing it so even if you build a super long range killing machine, the party will want to avoid engaging at long ranges and you alone will still not kill a CR-appropriate Dragon at extreme ranges no matter how good your DPR is since the rest of the party can't contribute. Thus I think that consideration is secondary to being able to ensure you won't have to fight at long ranges (e.g. Dimension Door is a great spell to this end). Which is why I'd consider a Cleric; even Arcana Cleric with Spell Sniper can only fight at 240' and that in a mediocre manner but it brings a set of other good tools to the table that covers other bases and the range issue is something you'll want to solve in another means anyways.

With a Shadow Monk in the party though, having a long ranged specialist lets you put enemies between a rock and a hard place: either stay behind cover where the Shadow Monk (and possibly some conjured animals too) has the upper hand and can pick them off one at a time like teenager girls in a slasher movie, or come out into the open and face the Sharpshooter like American and British (and Canadian/Australian) troops charging the German machine guns on D-Day.

I find that Shadow Monks and ranged combatants complement each other nicely.



As for damage: I think that maximizing damage is important on a strategic level. More damage means less rounds which means less chances to die and this party lacks in damage. It's a very "macro" thing but really works. However it requires a lot of optimization. Also it's way easier to apply this rule to white room analysis/video games rather than PnP where the individual skill and combat awareness matters. I do however think that the ability to force the enemy to come to you through superior range is a very good tactical option that can applied easily.

Yes, ranged firepower lets you spend distance instead of HP, and distance is a lot easier to regain. But, you still need a way to make waiting behind cover painful for them too. That's the Shadow Monk's job. He doesn't have to do a lot of damage--one arrow every two minutes from a new position will still kill them eventually if they don't deal with him.

(Monk's assets include: Minor Illusion's ability to create suspicious sounds to mess with readied actions, plus Pass Without Trace, Shadow Jump, eventual wall-climbing, and patience.)

[Eldariel]

With a Shadow Monk in the party though, having a long ranged specialist lets you put enemies between a rock and a hard place: either stay behind cover where the Shadow Monk (and possibly some conjured animals too) has the upper hand and can pick them off one at a time like teenager girls in a slasher movie, or come out into the open and face the Sharpshooter like American and British (and Canadian/Australian) troops charging the German machine guns on D-Day.

I find that Shadow Monks and ranged combatants complement each other nicely.

That's true but OTOH Shadow Monk and team with other sources of teleportation (like if the team has access to DD-type effects) and CC (to split the enemy; Sleet Storm is great for instance) are also real strong complements for one another so either way you go, you're bound to get something good. Though SS Swords Bard or Bladesinger is also a really solid pick and you can add XBE (and potentially Archery fighting style from a dip to really good effect). So there are certainly really efficient ranged builds available even if you also want to slot into the missing caster slot (I'm thinking SS/XBE Swords Bard is a top tier build for damage dealers; Swords maneuvers work for ranged types and it gets really solid benefits out of the spellcasting - though obviously the Wizard list is again better). Hell, the 600' Eldritch Spear Sorlock bears mentioning too even if it doesn't quite have the damage of a Sharpshooter; 1d10+5 at +5+Prof x Tier is quite decent at long range especially since most things can't fight back.

I do agree that the party could use ranged attackers but I think it does need someone to pick up the Druid and someone providing magical utility of the type not provided by the unknown player a bit more. And every party is better with a Bard so unless they play a Bard, playing a (Lore) Bard is certainly a solid pick [Lore so that it can make up for whatever the party is missing].

[MaxWilson]

That's true but OTOH Shadow Monk and team with other sources of teleportation (like if the team has access to DD-type effects) and CC (to split the enemy; Sleet Storm is great for instance) are also real strong complements for one another so either way you go, you're bound to get something good. Though SS Swords Bard or Bladesinger is also a really solid pick and you can add XBE (and potentially Archery fighting style from a dip to really good effect). (A) So there are certainly really efficient ranged builds available even if you also want to slot into the missing caster slot (I'm thinking SS/XBE Swords Bard is a top tier build for damage dealers; Swords maneuvers work for ranged types and it gets really solid benefits out of the spellcasting - though obviously the Wizard list is again better). - - - , the 600' Eldritch Spear Sorlock bears mentioning too even if it doesn't quite have the damage of a Sharpshooter; 1d10+5 at +5+Prof x Tier is quite decent at long range especially since most things can't fight back.

I do agree that the party could use ranged attackers but I think it does need someone to pick up the Druid and someone providing magical utility of the type not provided by the unknown player a bit more. And every party is better with a Bard so unless they play a Bard, playing a (Lore) Bard is certainly a solid pick [Lore so that it can make up for whatever the party is missing].

Swords Bard would be better off with Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear IMO rather than weapons. Spell Sniper Necrolock is also quite strong in this role even though skeletons get disadvantage at long range. Hexblade/Diviner is another one I'd like to play someday. (Diviner lets you still Planar Bind efficiently at high levels even if you never max Int.)

So yes, I agree that it doesn't have to be a Fighter, can still be a caster if you want it to be. I said as much in post #2:

Opinion: you need a ranged combat specialist. Could be a Bardlock, or a Hexblade 2/Diviner, or a Sharpshooter Fighter, but... you need someone who can inflict massive pain from 200 yards away.

The advantage of a Sharpshooter Fighter is higher DPR and nova damage even at extreme range, plus more feats and a Conan/Aragorn vibe. The advantage of a bardlock or wizardlock is more versatility, getting to play with summoned elementals and demons, etc. They are both fun IMO depending on your mood.

Note: picking up the Moon Druid from zero HP can also be done by 50 gp healing potion instead of investing in a class. Then the Moon Druid can heal themself more or wildshape or Polymorph.

[Chugger]

A divine soul/hexblade sorlock would be great.

You'd have charisma for social skills. You'd have very good ranged single target damage. If you get attacked you have good AC and can cast Armor of Agathys on yourself. If swarmed you can AoE - fireball and such. Or you can control - hypnotic pattern. You're not a cleric but can cast key cleric spells - heal and revivify.

If you do this, lvl 1 go sorc for the con prof, then lvl 2 and lvl 3 go hexblade - then lvl 4 on go back to sorc.

The other thing is cleric. A light cleric can heal and rez and buff and remove curse and all the good things any normal cleric can do - and turn undead (very important!) - but you can also fireball when that makes sense. Radiance of Dawn is actually pretty good, too. You can make either work.

[Eldariel]

Swords Bard would be better off with Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear IMO rather than weapons. Spell Sniper Necrolock is also quite strong in this role even though skeletons get disadvantage at long range. Hexblade/Diviner is another one I'd like to play someday. (Diviner lets you still Planar Bind efficiently at high levels even if you never max Int.)

So yes, I agree that it doesn't have to be a Fighter, can still be a caster if you want it to be. I said as much in post #2:

Opinion: you need a ranged combat specialist. Could be a Bardlock, or a Hexblade 2/Diviner, or a Sharpshooter Fighter, but... you need someone who can inflict massive pain from 200 yards away.

The advantage of a Sharpshooter Fighter is higher DPR and nova damage even at extreme range, plus more feats and a Conan/Aragorn vibe. The advantage of a bardlock or wizardlock is more versatility, getting to play with summoned elementals and demons, etc. They are both fun IMO depending on your mood.

Note: picking up the Moon Druid from zero HP can also be done by 50 gp healing potion instead of investing in a class. Then the Moon Druid can heal themself more or wildshape or Polymorph.

Swords Bard built for attacking can make great use of Tenser's or Haste or Holy Weapon though which are great spells for hitting things hard (or Magic Jar if you can get appropriate bodies). Which is a significant advantage over cantripping, not to mention it doesn't need a dip (which I think hurts way more than a feat or two since you miss out on your high level stuff). XBE/SS is two feats while Spell Sniper/Eldritch Spear/Agonizing Blast is two levels and a feat (the two levels costing an additional ASI but also two levels of Bard progression including the high level Magical Secrets that can produce stuff like Holy Weapon or Tenser's or whatever). IIRC a level 11 Swords Bard (raised to level 11 to give the Fighter the third attack) attacking from concealment at that range with Holy Weapon active can surpass an equivalent Fighter's damage (obviously Fighter does have Action Surge to surpass the Bard for one turn) in spite of lacking Archery style or the third attack.

Yeah, healing does work with items but getting it at range as a bonus action while doing other stuff is just convenient. Too often I've been in a situation where the other PCs have to make serious sacrifices to get to the downed ally when they could've just pressed the "raise" button instead. We actually played a party predicated on item healing once on level 3 and ended up with 3/5 dead before we had a chance to craft/buy any healing potions. The campaign was pretty brutal and on a tight schedule. We never did have time to craft any Potions in the end, though we did get a chance to buy some after a second near-TPK.


Regarding the ranged combat clause, I think that depends. I don't think a party with a single ranged combat specialist is all that good; the single character is unlikely to be able to defeat a ranged combat specialised enemy and thus the party somehow needs to close in anyways. I generally want for most of the party to be able to operate at range somewhat, but in parties where that is not the case I'd prefer that the whole party focus on making it difficult for enemies to maintain distance/make it easy for the party to close distance. If the party features characters with some long range capability (melee-specced Dex warriors, casters with long range cantrips, etc.) then I find a ranged specialist to be much more valuable than in a party like this with zero ranged capability, where the rest of the party will want to avoid ranged engagements entirely. This easily leads to a conflict of style between the characters if one is very ranged and the others are totally melee making it difficult to agree on a tactic for the party and which fights to take and how to approach them and so on. This is not an insurmountable issue but one that does make life a bit difficult for especially less well integrated and less tactical parties. For such parties, I'd generally prefer that the party has a focus on either making sure long range engagements don't happen or on everyone being comfortable at range (this is in part for the players too; it's not fun engaging in an encounter where you can do nothing, like fighting a breath-strafing Dragon as a Pally while your allies are raining hell on it).