New Critical Role content on D&D Beyond: Paladin Oath and re-done Cobalt Soul Monk

[jaappleton]

The Cobalt Soul was originally released in the Tal'Dorei Campaign Guide by Green Ronin. It appears the contract between the two has since expired, but that's a separate topic.

I believe CR content is free on D&D Beyond. (There's a few editorial errors, like the Paladin Oath's lv7 being listed at lv6 but that'll be fixed shortly)

The Cobalt Soul is now a lot easier to use and doesn't consume to much Ki to do any of its abilities. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/monk#WayoftheCobaltSoul

And the Paladin Oath, the Oath of the Open Sea, is a pretty decent and unique oath. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin#OathoftheOpenSea

[jojosskul]

And the Paladin Oath, the Oath of the Open Sea, is a pretty decent and unique oath. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin#OathoftheOpenSea

That makes sense, Fjord just leveled in the campaign and would be choosing an oath now. Neat that they developed a unique one for his character. However you've now reminded me that they've been on a two week break and I have to listen to either other podcasts or GASP, regular music, on my commute for the next few weeks.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I was pretty interested when they did the bit where Travis took the new Oath.

Quickly glancing at it: I like the channel divinity options, they seem fairly potent. Aura seems good. 15th level is an automatic 1d12 damage with a rider effect.

The capstone, ironically, is probably the least exciting of the options.

The Monk subclass is dense... and currently not ordered properly. Spending a Ki point for an additional reaction seems fantastic, I'm sad that it's so divorced from actually using your intelligence stat though. Probably for the best considering how MAD Monk's are, adding expertise on all those intelligence skills is clunky but ensures the Monk will be good at those things.


That makes sense, Fjord just leveled in the campaign and would be choosing an oath now. Neat that they developed a unique one for his character. However you've now reminded me that they've been on a two week break and I have to listen to either other podcasts or GASP, regular music, on my commute for the next few weeks.
Fair warning, the session is near 5 hours long this week.

[Unoriginal]

The Cobalt Soul was originally released in the Tal'Dorei Campaign Guide by Green Ronin. It appears the contract between the two has since expired, but that's a separate topic.

I believe CR content is free on D&D Beyond. (There's a few editorial errors, like the Paladin Oath's lv7 being listed at lv6 but that'll be fixed shortly)

The Cobalt Soul is now a lot easier to use and doesn't consume to much Ki to do any of its abilities. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/monk#WayoftheCobaltSoul

And the Paladin Oath, the Oath of the Open Sea, is a pretty decent and unique oath. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin#OathoftheOpenSea

Cobalt Soul is nicer now, though I *still* lament how nearly all the INT-based abilities were removed. I also wonder why the possibility to use Extract Truth without dealing damage was removed. Might have been forgotten in the editing.

Still, it's nice that the counterpunch became a better option.

Open Sea Paladin is just bonker, aside from the 20th level stuff. Marine Layer is fine, but Fury of the Tides pushing the enemy 10ft anytime you hit anyone, for 1 min? Aura of Liberation just being a "ahaha, no grappled or restrained, ever" and Stormy Waters being a reaction that *always* deals 1d12 damage if the opponent leave OR enter your controlled space? And a STR save to not get knocked prone?

Open Sea Paladin at lvl 3 [starting at 1:39]:


https://youtu.be/5zkKdJ8d7Vs


That makes sense, Fjord just leveled in the campaign and would be choosing an oath now. Neat that they developed a unique one for his character. However you've now reminded me that they've been on a two week break and I have to listen to either other podcasts or GASP, regular music, on my commute for the next few weeks.

Fjord did choose his Oath this episode.

[Vogie]

The Monk subclass is dense... and currently not ordered properly. Spending a Ki point for an additional reaction seems fantastic, I'm sad that it's so divorced from actually using your intelligence stat though. Probably for the best considering how MAD Monk's are, adding expertise on all those intelligence skills is clunky but ensures the Monk will be good at those things.


It's ordered fine - the third level ability gives you the ability to use your reaction in a new way after you spend a Ki point. Later, they give you an extra reaction for spending a ki point. And since there's no way to say "this is a Int-based Monk instead of a Wis-based one", that's about as good as they're going to get.

[Sception]

"Marine layer is fine"? What? Really?

It's the oft lamented darkness plus devils sight combo once per short rest, only the entire party can see through it, not just you, and it works against devils and warlocks with devils sight, and it lasts for 10 minutes without requiring concentration. That's advantage on attacks for all of your allies and disadvantage on attacks for all enemies with no save and no concentration for an entire encounter per short rest.

I'm not one to scream 'the sky is falling' or to complain when things are a little OP, but come on, that's just silly good. Pushing on melee hits for a minute is a cute joke compared to that.

Otherwise looks fun and flavorful, especially if you throw in the mariner fighting style from that one UA way back when. Kind of feel like water breathing should be on the oath spell list, but w/e.

[Luccan]

Oh cool, I'm watching the Twitch archive now. Can't wait to see what the Paladin actually does.

I will say, the actual Oath part of this Oath only really has two tenants, the last two are just kind of aspirational.

Given how MAD monks are, a truly INT-based monk that still relied on Dex and Wis (and a little Con) was never gonna work. Rogues are significantly less MAD and even their one subclass that branches out between Int and Wis still basically lets you pick one or the other to be good at with very little lost on the one you don't pick.

[Unoriginal]

And since there's no way to say "this is a Int-based Monk instead of a Wis-based one", that's about as good as they're going to get.



Given how MAD monks are, a truly INT-based monk that still relied on Dex and Wis (and a little Con) was never gonna work. Rogues are significantly less MAD and even their one subclass that branches out between Int and Wis still basically lets you pick one or the other to be good at with very little lost on the one you don't pick.

Could just say "[lvl 3 Subclass Ability Name]: you can use your INT instead of your DEX/instead of your WIS/instead of either for your Monk abilities". Make the Monk SADer, not MADer.



"Marine layer is fine"? What? Really?

It's the oft lamented darkness plus devils sight combo once per short rest, only the entire party can see through it, not just you, and it works against devils and warlocks with devils sight, and it lasts for 10 minutes without requiring concentration. That's advantage on attacks for all of your allies and disadvantage on attacks for all enemies with no save and no concentration for an entire encounter per short rest.

Didn't see/forgot it was once per short rest. Yeah in retrospect it's just as too powerful as the rest.


At least choosing an Oath with Expeditious Retreat is 100% in-character for Fjord.

[Amnestic]

"Marine layer is fine"? What? Really?

It's the oft lamented darkness plus devils sight combo once per short rest, only the entire party can see through it, not just you, and it works against devils and warlocks with devils sight, and it lasts for 10 minutes without requiring concentration. That's advantage on attacks for all of your allies and disadvantage on attacks for all enemies with no save and no concentration for an entire encounter per short rest.

I'm not one to scream 'the sky is falling' or to complain when things are a little OP, but come on, that's just silly good. Pushing on melee hits for a minute is a cute joke compared to that.

Otherwise looks fun and flavorful, especially if you throw in the mariner fighting style from that one UA way back when. Kind of feel like water breathing should be on the oath spell list, but w/e.

Marine Layer *does* require the party to be within 5' of you at least which...not really a big restriction but it's something I guess.

I'm not clear if they need to be in 5' when you cast it and then can move away, OR if they need to be within 5' and CAN'T move away OR if they only can see through it when within 5' but can move in and out to get the sight buff. I feel like it's the first one but it might be the third? idk. The second one seems least likely since you can't move together unless everyone's spending their action+reaction doing readied moves.

[x3n0n]

It's ordered fine - the third level ability gives you the ability to use your reaction in a new way after you spend a Ki point. Later, they give you an extra reaction for spending a ki point. And since there's no way to say "this is a Int-based Monk instead of a Wis-based one", that's about as good as they're going to get.

The display on the website is borked for me: the 6th level Int skill feature is listed before the 3rd level ability.

Looks like fun! I just wish there was a ribbon at 3rd.

[CMCC]

Fjord did choose his Oath this episode.

I didn’t watch yet - but why didn’t he take oath of the ancients - given the wild mother connection it seems like the obvious choice to me.

I don’t get the need to home brew this one.

That said, there are some pretty powerful abilities in that home brew.


"Marine layer is fine"? What? Really?

It's the oft lamented darkness plus devils sight combo once per short rest, only the entire party can see through it, not just you, and it works against devils and warlocks with devils sight, and it lasts for 10 minutes without requiring concentration. That's advantage on attacks for all of your allies and disadvantage on attacks for all enemies with no save and no concentration for an entire encounter per short rest.


I had the same thoughts. Unless I’m missing something, that’s insanely powerful.

[CMCC]

Marine Layer *does* require the party to be within 5' of you at least which...not really a big restriction but it's something I guess.

I'm not clear if they need to be in 5' when you cast it and then can move away, OR if they need to be within 5' and CAN'T move away OR if they only can see through it when within 5' but can move in and out to get the sight buff. I feel like it's the first one but it might be the third? idk. The second one seems least likely since you can't move together unless everyone's spending their action+reaction doing readied moves.

The way it’s worded, I would think anyone within 5 feet during that minute duration gets the benefit.

[Yakmala]

I really like the Oath of the Open Sea, and were I still in a Saltmarsh campagin, I'd totally want to play one. I do agree that Marine Layer is a bit overpowered for once per short rest. For Stormy Waters, I'd want to tune it so that a successful save = half damage, since there's no attack roll.

[Wasp]

That Paladin Oath seems insanely powerful. Probably okay for Fjord who seems quite ineffective in the game so far, but for someone at least a little optimized...

[Unoriginal]

That Paladin Oath seems insanely powerful. Probably okay for Fjord who seems quite ineffective in the game so far, but for someone at least a little optimized...

Fjord's relative lack of effectiveness in most cases isn't due to mechanical concerns, though. Main problem is tactical.

Even his Legendary sword can only help so much.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's ordered fine - the third level ability gives you the ability to use your reaction in a new way after you spend a Ki point. Later, they give you an extra reaction for spending a ki point. And since there's no way to say "this is a Int-based Monk instead of a Wis-based one", that's about as good as they're going to get.

When I looked at it on DnD Beyond the 6th level ability was listed before the 3rd.

It's not supposed to be ordered that way.

[Droppeddead]

At least choosing an Oath with Expeditious Retreat is 100% in-character for Fjord.

It's for when those pesky turtles attack...

As a side note, am I the only one noticing that the Cobalt Soul's proficiencies in extra languages is a bit wasted? You already get Tongue of the Sun and Moon at level 13 so learning an extra language at 11 and 17 doesn't really matter. Also, giving weakness against one damage type for one attack, isn't that something that Caduceous already does and has done for quite some time? Cobalt Soul is a bit "meh". They're still moks though which means that are still badass.

[Unoriginal]

As a side note, am I the only one noticing that the Cobalt Soul's proficiencies in extra languages is a bit wasted? You already get Tongue of the Sun and Moon at level 13 so learning an extra language at 11 and 17 doesn't really matter.

Well it matters for written languages. Tongue of the Sun and Moon is only for talking.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's for when those pesky turtles attack...

As a side note, am I the only one noticing that the Cobalt Soul's proficiencies in extra languages is a bit wasted? You already get Tongue of the Sun and Moon at level 13 so learning an extra language at 11 and 17 doesn't really matter. Also, giving weakness against one damage type for one attack, isn't that something that Caduceous already does and has done for quite some time? Cobalt Soul is a bit "meh". They're still moks though which means that are still badass.

Tongue of the Son and Moon doesn't help you read, it's pretty important for someone researching a broad variety of things to have several language skills. That said, extra languages are largely a ribbon ability to begin with.

As for the vulnerability, Grave Cleric's have that as a Channel Divinity option.

Regarding the monk feature, being able to choose the damage type makes it both more versatile and less potent. More versatile in the fact that you can ensure which attack actually triggers it, so long as you have that diverse option (Hey Caleb, he's weak to Force damage, Disintegrate!) however for attacks that deal multiple types of damage (Fjord's smites, Yasha's Zealot abilities) you won't get full effectiveness from it. One additional thing to note, bludgeoning damage will always be a bad choice because you might not want to assume you'll make your second strike in Flurry of Blows, opting to use this on the first strike that hits (which might be the first strike you make) and choosing Bludgeoning damage would make it so that only Beau's following punch will double in damage, which isn't very efficient.

However, the Grave Cleric's Path to the Grave feature is more potent, but severely limited. It only lasts a single turn, making it very difficult to coordinate, and regardless of what you do the next source of damage from an attack will be doubled. To borrow from my earlier example, Caduceus cannot make Disintegrate more potent with this feature, however a smiting attack from Fjord will be doubled on all dice rather than just the longsword or smite dice.

[Droppeddead]

Tongue of the Son and Moon doesn't help you read, it's pretty important for someone researching a broad variety of things to have several language skills. That said, extra languages are largely a ribbon ability to begin with.

Easily overcome by having someone else read the text out loud to you. Even if they don't understand what they're saying, you will. Yes, it is weird but it is raw. B)

And yes, since extra languages quite often is a ribbon, it feels weird that they get a ribbon at level 17 where other monks get save or die attacks or radiant damage or super flurry of blows.

You are quite correct in your analysis of the weakness ability and you basically said everything that I was too lazy to write. :)

[Unoriginal]

Easily overcome by having someone else read the text out loud to you. Even if they don't understand what they're saying, you will. Yes, it is weird but it is raw. B)

1) No, it isn't, ToS&M does not work on random strings of words the speaker doesn't know the meaning of. ToS&M does not translates the language, you just understand all the languages and the other people understand all you say by your ki touching their mind.

2) And how do you read text out loud if you don't know the language? Even if two different languages use the same alphabet it doesn't give the pronunciation.



And yes, since extra languages quite often is a ribbon, it feels weird that they get a ribbon at level 17 where other monks get save or die attacks or radiant damage or super flurry of blows.

The Cobalt Soul gets the vulnerability-inducement at lvl 17.

[Wasp]

Have they nerfed Marine Layer already? I could swear it was totally a bit different yesterday...

[jaappleton]

Have they nerfed Marine Layer already? I could swear it was totally a bit different yesterday...

I think (but can’t say for certain) it was Heavily Obscured yesterday.

[Droppeddead]

1) No, it isn't, ToS&M does not work on random strings of words the speaker doesn't know the meaning of. ToS&M does not translates the language, you just understand all the languages and the other people understand all you say by your ki touching their mind.

2) And how do you read text out loud if you don't know the language? Even if two different languages use the same alphabet it doesn't give the pronunciation.
Check the rules. It doesn't say anything about the speaker having to know the language, just that it has to be spoken. Which of course is quite logical if you just think about it. Let's say that I know German but you don't and you call me and ask what a German word in a book means and you read it out to me, of course I will be able to understand it even though your pronunciation isn't 100% perfect. It's not like you are magically incapable of reading words in a language that you aren't fluent in. That would just be silly.


The Cobalt Soul gets the vulnerability-inducement at lvl 17.
And they also get another language. {scrubbed}

[ProsecutorGodot]

Have they nerfed Marine Layer already? I could swear it was totally a bit different yesterday...

That appears to be the case, I feel like I remember it saying that allies of your choice could see through it normally before and now it's everything (including yourself) treat it as lightly obscured while within 5ft of you.

It's still a good way to keep ranged attacks off you but it's usefulness in melee (aside from a reach based build) seems significantly less appealing.



And they also get another language. May I suggest actually reading the rules you are commenting on?
The way you worded it made it seem like you were only comparing the additional skill and language to other monk capstones. Also, I feel the need to point out, inflicting vulnerability on something is a rare and powerful ability. The fact that this can be coordinated for any damage type regardless of source is... fun.

Open Hand is actually the outlier here, the only other Monk capstone that can even contend in offensive power is Touch of the Long Death, which has a huge Ki cost attached to guarantee that it matches what Open Hand is guaranteed to do. Monk Capstones are actually fairly ordinary barring these two exceptions.

[Amnestic]

Have they nerfed Marine Layer already? I could swear it was totally a bit different yesterday...

It is changed yes.

Before:
Marine Layer. As an action you can channel the sea to create a thick cloud of fog that surrounds you and heavily obscures the area for 20 feet in all directions, following you as you move. You and any creatures you choose within 5 feet of you can see through the fog and suffer no penalties from being within it. This fog lasts for 10 minutes, spreads around corners and cannot be dispersed.

Now:
Marine Layer. As an action you can channel the sea to create a thick cloud of fog that surrounds you and heavily obscures the area for 20 feet in all directions, following you as you move. You and all creatures within 5 feet of you instead treat this fog as lightly obscured. This fog lasts for 10 minutes, spreads around corners and cannot be dispersed.

It's a definite nerf, but honestly I think it's still pretty damn strong.

[x3n0n]

And they also get another language. May I suggest actually reading the rules you are commenting on?

To me, your original statement sounded like "[it's dumb that] they get a ribbon at 17, compared with other monks that get powerful damage abilities", and that person replied with "they [also] get a powerful damage-increasing ability".

I think you are both right about the facts, and perhaps you disagree about which ones are relevant here?

Edit: ninja'ed

[Unoriginal]

Check the rules. It doesn't say anything about the speaker having to know the language, just that it has to be spoken.

It says that you understand all spoken languages. Someone saying words of a language they don't understand out loud, even assuming they can read the actual words, isn't speaking the language.



Let's say that I know German but you don't and you call me and ask what a German word in a book means and you read it out to me, of course I will be able to understand it even though your pronunciation isn't 100% perfect.

Except that with Tongue of the Moon and Sun, the Monk's comprehension of the language is based on the speaker's comprehension, as the monk is using their ki to touch the speaker's mind.



It's not like you are magically incapable of reading words in a language that you aren't fluent in. That would just be silly.

Can you read those words (without checking the internet)?:

https://cdn.nohat.cc/thumb/f/720/m2H7d3b1K9Z5H7K9.jpg



And they also get another language. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

So you're saying that "it's weird that they get a ribbon at level 17 where other monks get save or die attacks or radiant damage or super flurry of blows" when they're getting a ribbon AND an useful, damage-increasing feature?

[CMCC]

It is changed yes.

Before:
Marine Layer. As an action you can channel the sea to create a thick cloud of fog that surrounds you and heavily obscures the area for 20 feet in all directions, following you as you move. You and any creatures you choose within 5 feet of you can see through the fog and suffer no penalties from being within it. This fog lasts for 10 minutes, spreads around corners and cannot be dispersed.

Now:
Marine Layer. As an action you can channel the sea to create a thick cloud of fog that surrounds you and heavily obscures the area for 20 feet in all directions, following you as you move. You and all creatures within 5 feet of you instead treat this fog as lightly obscured. This fog lasts for 10 minutes, spreads around corners and cannot be dispersed.

It's a definite nerf, but honestly I think it's still pretty damn strong.

It still gives you advantage on your attacks and they get disadvantage on theirs right? They’re effectively blinded if it remains heavily obscured.

[Unoriginal]

So Marine Layer means a Wood Elf can always hide in the fog thanks to their Mask of the Wild feature, correct?


I didn’t watch yet - but why didn’t he take oath of the ancients - given the wild mother connection it seems like the obvious choice to me.

I don’t get the need to home brew this one.

From what I understand, Travis just didn't like any of the existing Oaths enough/didn't think any fit Fjord enough to make his PC swear one of them but still wanted an Oath.

[CMCC]

So Marine Layer means a Wood Elf can always hide in the fog thanks to their Mask of the Wild feature, correct?


They’re heavily obscured so no need to hide. Edit: in melee they would. Good point on the wood elf. I missed that they changed the “creatures you choose” clause too.

Wow they really nerfed this thing.

[Unoriginal]

They’re heavily obscured so no need to hide. Edit: in melee they would. Good point on the wood elf.

Being heavily obscured make you unseen, but it does not make you unheard. You need to hide if you don't want the possibility of enemies locating you by sound.

You're right that Mask of the Wild doesn't change anything at range, though, since it only affects Wood Elves who are lightly obscured.



Wow they really nerfed this thing.

Yeah, if I'm reading it correctly the Paladin's enemies who are within 5ft of the Paladin are also only treating the fog like light obscurity.

Matt Mercer is a good DM in term of storytelling, and he's extremely skilled at establishing the feel of a scene almost immediately and at making memorable characters, but he does have troubles estimating how powerful X or Y mechanics are, or remembering the definition of various mechanical effects.

Funniest instance of this is when he accidentally made his affable magic item seller an expert at mind control due to not remembering what the Enchantment school was about (and thinking it was about enchanting items/buffing people).

[CMCC]

Being heavily obscured make you unseen, but it does not make you unheard. You need to hide if you don't want the possibility of enemies locating you by sound.

You're right that Mask of the Wild doesn't change anything, though, since it only affects Wood Elves who are lightly obscured.
For combat you’d still have advantage and enemies would have disadvantage in heavy obscurement. No need to hide. But for stealth you’d need to hide.

[ProsecutorGodot]

For combat you’d still have advantage and enemies would have disadvantage in heavy obscurement. No need to hide. But for stealth you’d need to hide.

The thing about this though is that the Paladin oath is heavily tailored towards melee combat, enemies within 5ft of you are also treating this fog as lightly obscured. A reach build is doable but you miss out on one of the better aspects of the already lackluster capstone.

Actually, just forget about the capstone and use a reach weapon. All of the other abilities work with it and it's the only way you have a melee weapon that gets advantage from marine layer. Though I think with this new restriction I would favor Fury of the Tides more unless remaining hidden from far off enemies is a bigger advantage.

Imagining a sea faring Paladin who whips his enemies overboard with a twirling glaive is giving me some good vibes right now.

[Unoriginal]

Actually, just forget about the capstone and use a reach weapon. All of the other abilities work with it and it's the only way you have a melee weapon that gets advantage from marine layer.

A Bugbear would be able to take advantage of it regardless of the weapon used, too.



Imagining a sea faring Paladin who whips his enemies overboard with a twirling glaive is giving me some good vibes right now.

Using a whip to do it would be awesome as well.

EDIT:

Just noticed that Fury of the Tides do work with Whirlwind Attack. And 3 levels of Sea Paladin are hardly wasted on a Ranger.

[ProsecutorGodot]

A Bugbear would be able to take advantage of it regardless of the weapon used, too.
Only downside to the bugbear strategy is that the 15th level feature is a range of 5ft without an actual reach weapon. No reason you couldn't be a bugbear and use a reach weapon though.

Huge major disgusting thing I just noticed about Stormy Waters by the way... it doesn't say willingly or even moves for that matter, just enter or exit. Doesn't that mean you could trigger it from Fury of the Tides? Disengage doesn't prevent it either.


Using a whip to do it would be awesome as well.
Any excuse to use a whip is a good thing.


Just noticed that Fury of the Tides do work with Whirlwind Attack. And 3 levels of Sea Paladin are hardly wasted on a Ranger.

If only I had a campaign to be playing this character in right now, been a while since the sheer novelty of an idea has got me so interested in playing a new character.

[CMCC]

The thing about this though is that the Paladin oath is heavily tailored towards melee combat, enemies within 5ft of you are also treating this fog as lightly obscured. A reach build is doable but you miss out on one of the better aspects of the already lackluster capstone.

Actually, just forget about the capstone and use a reach weapon. All of the other abilities work with it and it's the only way you have a melee weapon that gets advantage from marine layer. Though I think with this new restriction I would favor Fury of the Tides more unless remaining hidden from far off enemies is a bigger advantage.

Imagining a sea faring Paladin who whips his enemies overboard with a twirling glaive is giving me some good vibes right now.

I meant with the original writing of the ability. It was changed to nerf it.

[Droppeddead]

The way you worded it made it seem like you were only comparing the additional skill and language to other monk capstones.
That's just wrong. I was pointing out that they recieved a mostly useless ribbon at level 17, nothing else.


Also, I feel the need to point out, inflicting vulnerability on something is a rare and powerful ability. The fact that this can be coordinated for any damage type regardless of source is... fun.
Never said it wasn't. However, grave clerics get a better version and level 2.


Open Hand is actually the outlier here, the only other Monk capstone that can even contend in offensive power is Touch of the Long Death, which has a huge Ki cost attached to guarantee that it matches what Open Hand is guaranteed to do. Monk Capstones are actually fairly ordinary barring these two exceptions.
Again, not arguing the capstones, pointing out the uselessness of the ribbon.


So, since this is mostly just a bunch of strawmen arguments I'm not sure if I should even reply but for the sake of open dialogue I will just point out a few things.

It says that you understand all spoken languages. Someone saying words of a language they don't understand out loud, even assuming they can read the actual words, isn't speaking the language.
That's quite literally what it is though. I can't speak Russian but I now that the word 'spasiba' means "thank you in Russian". If I say that to a Russian speaking person, they will understand it. If someone says a bunch of Russian words to me including that one, I won't understand the whole of it but I will understand that particular word.


Except that with Tongue of the Moon and Sun, the Monk's comprehension of the language is based on the speaker's comprehension, as the monk is using their ki to touch the speaker's mind.
Can you quote the rules where it says this?


Can you read those words (without checking the internet)?:
Nice strawman and no. However if I did check the internet for a pronunciation guide to read those words out loud, a person who understands the language who, probably, understand me.

I would also like to point out that I've never once claimed that "Tongue of the Moon and Sun" (I'm assuming that you actually mean Tongue of the Sun and Moon, ;) ) helps anyone read alphabets that they do not already know. If they do however they can read languages they don't understand and have what they say be understood by a 13th level Monk. Again, weird but completely RAW.


So you're saying that "it's weird that they get a ribbon at level 17 where other monks get save or die attacks or radiant damage or super flurry of blows" when they're getting a ribbon AND a useful, damage-increasing feature?
Not that useful, but yes. That is what I wrote.

[diplomancer]

That's just wrong. I was pointing out that they recieved a mostly useless ribbon at level 17, nothing else.


Never said it wasn't. However, grave clerics get a better version and level 2.


Again, not arguing the capstones, pointing out the uselessness of the ribbon.


So, since this is mostly just a bunch of strawmen arguments I'm not sure if I should even reply but for the sake of open dialogue I will just point out a few things.

That's quite literally what it is though. I can't speak Russian but I now that the word 'spasiba' means "thank you in Russian". If I say that to a Russian speaking person, they will understand it. If someone says a bunch of Russian words to me including that one, I won't understand the whole of it but I will understand that particular word.


Can you quote the rules where it says this?


Nice strawman and no. However if I did check the internet for a pronunciation guide to read those words out loud, a person who understands the language who, probably, understand me.

I would also like to point out that I've never once claimed that "Tongue of the Moon and Sun" (I'm assuming that you actually mean Tongue of the Sun and Moon, ;) ) helps anyone read alphabets that they do not already know. If they do however they can read languages they don't understand and have what they say be understood by a 13th level Monk. Again, weird but completely RAW.


Not that useful, but yes. That is what I wrote.

It's interesting that you chose German, of the same language group as English, as your example.

Never mind different alphabets (though you should, since D&D even mention different scripts for different languages), read a paragraph in French following pronounciation rules of English and I very much doubt a French speaker would understand (Get a language further away than French, say Croatian, with all the weird signs, and things would get even worse). Have a vague idea of the subject, perhaps, but I'd love to be the DM with players who tried to pull that off, the amount of misdirection you can achieve would be a lot of fun.

Heck, check the Lord of the Rings scene of entering Moria; and that was GANDALF, in a language he understood.

As to the Paladin... I disagree with most people's evaluation, I think it's below average Paladin powerlevelwise. The fog ability is very good, everything else is a bit weak; quite nice if you are planning a Pal 3/Sorc X split, perhaps.

[Droppeddead]

It's interesting that you chose German, of the same language group as English, as your example.
The same point still stands for any language that has the same alphabet. It's just PIE all the way down anyways. ;)


Never mind different alphabets (though you should, since D&D even mention different scripts for different languages),
Again, the claim has never been that you can all of the sudden read alphabets you don't already know. Please refrain from that strawman.


read a paragraph in French following pronounciation rules of English and I very much doubt a French speaker would understand (Get a language further away than French, say Croatian, with all the weird signs, and things would get even worse).
Moving the goalposts but sure, it might take a few times.


Have a vague idea of the subject, perhaps, but I'd love to be the DM with players who tried to pull that off, the amount of misdirection you can achieve would be a lot of fun.

That would be a fun thing to explore, yes.


Heck, check the Lord of the Rings scene of entering Moria; and that was GANDALF, in a language he understood.
Except that he obviously didn't, and he says so himself. ;)


As to the Paladin... I disagree with most people's evaluation, I think it's below average Paladin powerlevelwise. The fog ability is very good, everything else is a bit weak; quite nice if you are planning a Pal 3/Sorc X split, perhaps.
Or maybe a Paladin/Hexblade multiclass? ;)

[diplomancer]

The same point still stands for any language that has the same alphabet. It's just PIE all the way down anyways. ;)


Again, the claim has never been that you can all of the sudden read alphabets you don't already know. Please refrain from that strawman.


Moving the goalposts but sure, it might take a few times.


That would be a fun thing to explore, yes.


Except that he obviously didn't, and he says so himself. ;)


Or maybe a Paladin/Hexblade multiclass? ;)

Gandalf understands Elvish and can read the inscription (which is in Elvish). He still got it wrong at first, because of lack of punctuation.

The problem with "it might take a few times" is the considerable chance of misunderstanding. I'm not sure you realize how tricky language is, how even a pause in the wrong place changes the meaning of a phrase (and consider that punctuation is a relatively recent invention, not to mention the problem with scripts that omit vowel sounds).

The way Tongue of Sun and Moon is written, you have a better case if you say that the monk himself should read out loud whatever he's reading, and everyone, including himself, would undestand it. Nevertheless, since it mentions "to touch the ki of other minds", I would rule that you learn to understand what's being conveyed by the speaker. And if what the speaker is conveying is gibberish to him, it will be gibberish to you (GIGO).

[Droppeddead]

Gandalf understands Elvish and can read the inscription (which is in Elvish). He still got it wrong at first, because of lack of punctuation.
"They are wrought of ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth. It is long since I heard them, and I thought deeply before I could recall them to my mind.'"

This is just one of many occassions where Gandalf mention that his memory isn't always the best. Understandable, since he is quite old. This is of course completely irrelevant to the topic at hand but it still proves my point. You can read a text in a language you don't fully understand.


The problem with "it might take a few times" is the considerable chance of misunderstanding. I'm not sure you realize how tricky language is, how even a pause in the wrong place changes the meaning of a phrase (and consider that punctuation is a relatively recent invention, not to mention the problem with scripts that omit vowel sounds).
Not sure what that has to do with level 13 Monks' ability to "understand all spoken languages". Again, it's quite clear what RAW says.


The way Tongue of Sun and Moon is written, you have a better case if you say that the monk himself should read out loud whatever he's reading, and everyone, including himself, would undestand it. Nevertheless, since it mentions "to touch the ki of other minds", I would rule that you learn to understand what's being conveyed by the speaker. And if what the speaker is conveying is gibberish to him, it will be gibberish to you (GIGO).
Again, the case is quite clear. The rules say "spoken languages". It doesn't say anything about bad pronunciation, lack of grammar or weird accents or dialects. The Monks reading the words themself could certainly fit in the RAW.

Suggesting that a speaker have to understand a word for other people to understand them is just preposterous though. If we take this for example, you ask me "hey, you speak German, what does Krankenwagen mean?" and I reply "well, since you don't understand that word, neither can I" you see how weird it gets.

Again, RAW it is very simple and straight forward. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

[diplomancer]

"They are wrought of ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth. It is long since I heard them, and I thought deeply before I could recall them to my mind.'"

This is just one of many occassions where Gandalf mention that his memory isn't always the best. Understandable, since he is quite old. This is of course completely irrelevant to the topic at hand but it still proves my point. You can read a text in a language you don't fully understand.


Not sure what that has to do with level 13 Monks' ability to "understand all spoken languages". Again, it's quite clear what RAW says.


Again, the case is quite clear. The rules say "spoken languages". It doesn't say anything about bad pronunciation, lack of grammar or weird accents or dialects. The Monks reading the words themself could certainly fit in the RAW.

Suggesting that a speaker have to understand a word for other people to understand them is just preposterous though. If we take this for example, you ask me "hey, you speak German, what does Krankenwagen mean?" and I reply "well, since you don't understand that word, neither can I" you see how weird it gets.

Again, RAW it is very simple and straight forward. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

Is a bunch of randomly mispronounced sounds spoken by someone who has no idea what they mean "a spoken language"? You assume it is. If it isn't, as I believe, than the ability doesn't work. What if someone speaks gibberish, like in the improv game, does the monk "translate" it, or does he just realize "those are articulate sounds, but there's no language here".

Now, do the same thing you did with German, but using a whole sentence, with the phonetic alphabet as the sentence would be said, say, by a Japanese speaker who has no idea of German. Would the German speaker understand? Or would he ask the speaker to write the sentence down? Is there any chance the German speaker would hear a word and think it's another word, and thus completely misinterpret everything that's being said?

Coming back to Gandalf- he doesn't remember, immediately, the specific words used to make the Ithildin shine, that doesn't mean he doesn't speak Elvish fluently! He certainly shows no difficulty in reading the words written on the door, he only misinterprets them because there are no punctuation marks (and because he mistakenly, but naturally, assumes the password would be difficult and not just written on the door). It's a small, but significant, example of how tricky reading a language can be, even if you know it.

[Droppeddead]

Is a bunch of randomly mispronounced sounds spoken by someone who has no idea what they mean "a spoken language"? You assume it is. If it isn't, as I believe, than the ability doesn't work. What if someone speaks gibberish, like in the improv game, does the monk "translate" it, or does he just realize "those are articulate sounds, but there's no language here".
Could you please dispense with the pointless strawmen arguments and moving of goalposts? We aren't talking about "randomly mispronounced sounds", we are talking about reading actual words that you just don't know the meaning off.

Gibberish is not a "spoken language"


Now, do the same thing you did with German, but using a whole sentence, with the phonetic alphabet as the sentence would be said, say, by a Japanese speaker who has no idea of German. Would the German speaker understand? Or would he ask the speaker to write the sentence down? Is there any chance the German speaker would hear a word and think it's another word, and thus completely misinterpret everything that's being said?

Completely irrelevant to RAW.


Coming back to Gandalf- he doesn't remember, immediately, the specific words used to make the Ithildin shine, that doesn't mean he doesn't speak Elvish fluently! He certainly shows no difficulty in reading the words written on the door, he only misinterprets them because there are no punctuation marks (and because he mistakenly, but naturally, assumes the password would be difficult and not just written on the door). It's a small, but significant, example of how tricky reading a language can be, even if you know it.
Except for the whole, you know, not reading the words right part, you mean? Which, if we would go by your logic above would turn it into gibberish that no-one would be able to understand.

And again, it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the speaker has to know the language they speak for a 13th level monk to understand it. Or if you think there is, please quote page number and paragraf.

[diplomancer]

Could you please dispense with the pointless strawmen arguments and moving of goalposts? We aren't talking about "randomly mispronounced sounds", we are talking about reading actual words that you just don't know the meaning off.

Gibberish is not a "spoken language"


Completely irrelevant to RAW.


Except for the whole, you know, not reading the words right part, you mean? Which, if we would go by your logic above would turn it into gibberish that no-one would be able to understand.

And again, it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the speaker has to know the language they speak for a 13th level monk to understand it. Or if you think there is, please quote page number and paragraf.

One, I'm not "moving goalposts". If I read alanguage I have no idea of what it sounds like, even if it shares an alphabet that I know, I will mispronounce randomly the sounds. Because that's what it means to not have any idea about the language . Specially vowels, but also several consonantal combinations, diacritical signs, etc. So, what I would be speaking would not be a spoken language, but a mostly random combination of sounds. You are assuming it is a spoken language (or the ability does not work) you haven't made the case that it actually is.

Try to do the exercise I suggested; a whole sentence, as spoken by someone who has no idea what the sounds are like, using the phonetic alphabet. It would be incomprehensible to a native speaker, except for, perhaps, some vague meaning about the general subject. It would NOT solve any situation that might appear in an adventurer's life when knowing what's being said is relevant.

Gandalf reads the words right. He speaks Elvish after all, which is not the case you are suggesting here. Even then, he messes up the punctuation, because there's no punctuation in the door (Tolkien helpfully provides us with a picture of the door. No punctuation there; no commas, like Gandalf says it first, but also no quotes, which the correct reading requires).

My point with the Gandalf example is to point out the difficulties of going from written to spoken language even when you speak the language , specially with text with no punctuation, sometimes no vowels, etc (which is common in many language systems). If you DON'T speak the language, those difficulties are insurmountable.

A spoken language is not "sounds someone says outloud while they are reading a text in a language they don't know anything about". It is oral communication from one mind to another mind. If the first mind is not communicating anything with meaning, that's what the second mind will get.

[x3n0n]

I have lost track. Is this a fair summary of the current debate?

"Learning new languages after Tongue of the Sun and Moon is completely pointless, because spoken language is already taken care of, and any written text can be read aloud by an ally, to be comprehended by the monk."

Current counterpoint under debate: there are relevant texts that cannot be read aloud correctly, unless the reader already knows the language.

All true?

Another counterpoint: you can only write in a language that you know.

That said, the returns on learning a new language decrease significantly later in the game, especially given TotS&M. It's a good thing that's not the only thing they get at 17. :)

[Droppeddead]

I have lost track. Is this a fair summary of the current debate?

"Learning new languages after Tongue of the Sun and Moon is completely pointless, because spoken language is already taken care of, and any written text can be read aloud by an ally, to be comprehended by the monk."
That is what the rules say, yes.


Current counterpoint under debate: there are relevant texts that cannot be read aloud correctly, unless the reader already knows the language.
This is the opinion of a person, yes. That has no support in RAW


All true?
I think that some people are trying to argue that TotSaM doesn't work the way that the rules tells us how it works.


Another counterpoint: you can only write in a language that you know.
Yes. But that's not really a counterpoint since that is not what the ability is about.


That said, the returns on learning a new language decrease significantly later in the game, especially given TotS&M. It's a good thing that's not the only thing they get at 17. :)
Very true. They also get a slightly weaker version of something that grave clerics get at level 2. Nothing terrible but not fantastic for a monk.


One, I'm not "moving goalposts". If I read alanguage I have no idea of what it sounds like, even if it shares an alphabet that I know, I will mispronounce randomly the sounds.
Well you are. What you just mentioned though is a strawman.


Because that's what it means to not have any idea about the language . Specially vowels, but also several consonantal combinations, diacritical signs, etc. So, what I would be speaking would not be a spoken language, but a mostly random combination of sounds. You are assuming it is a spoken language (or the ability does not work) you haven't made the case that it actually is.
*Now* you are moving the goalposts. You not understanding the language of the word you read doesn't magically make it into *not* a language. And there's nothing random about anything since it is a specific word you are reading. And if someone who magically understands every spoken language (or uses the right app) hears it, they will understand it.


Try to do the exercise I suggested; a whole sentence, as spoken by someone who has no idea what the sounds are like, using the phonetic alphabet. It would be incomprehensible to a native speaker, except for, perhaps, some vague meaning about the general subject. It would NOT solve any situation that might appear in an adventurer's life when knowing what's being said is relevant.
Again, can you please quote the page in the book where the rules support this? Also, what if the speaker has a lisp? Or stutters? Or has an accent? Does that mean that anyone who listens to them magically is unable to understand them? Of course not!


Gandalf reads the words right. He speaks Elvish after all, which is not the case you are suggesting here. Even then, he messes up the punctuation, because there's no punctuation in the door (Tolkien helpfully provides us with a picture of the door. No punctuation there; no commas, like Gandalf says it first, but also no quotes, which the correct reading requires).
Except that he quite obviously and literally doesn't. "Speak friend" and "say friend" is not the same thing.


My point with the Gandalf example is to point out the difficulties of going from written to spoken language even when you speak the language , specially with text with no punctuation, sometimes no vowels, etc (which is common in many language systems). If you DON'T speak the language, those difficulties are insurmountable.
And again, this is totally irrelevant for Monk's 13th level ability.


A spoken language is not "sounds someone says outloud while they are reading a text in a language they don't know anything about". It is oral communication from one mind to another mind. If the first mind is not communicating anything with meaning, that's what the second mind will get.
And here we have another example of you moving the goalposts (and also not giving us any kind of rules supporting your claims, what so ever). As already pointed out, it is perfectly possible for someone to read a word in, say German without knowing what it means and German speaker would be able to undestand it. That is quite literally how a lot of people learn languages. "Hey Fritz, what does 'merkwurdig' mean?" "It's 'strange'." "Yes, but what does it mean." ( A little humor to lighten the mood.) What you are saying is that Fritz wouldn't be able to understand the word merkwurdig because the person asking him doesn't. Which is of course not how reality works.
Or another example, you meet a young child that doesn't know certain words, simply because they haven't learned those yet. You ask what happened to his friend and the child says "he was taken away in a car that had the word 'ambulance' on the front." Now, with your logic, a monk or even just any person fluent in the language taht the kid speaks wouldn't be able to understand the word "ambulance" if the child doesn't know that specific word. Which is not how anything works.

To sum it up, none of your claims have any support in reality or, which is more important in this case, the actual rules of the game. The rules only have two criteria "spoken", which discludes reading text, and "language" which rules out gibberish, farts and other similar noices. It doesn't say anything about the pronunciation, dialects, accents, speech impediments or anything else you have brought up. "Spoken languages", that's all. "All" spoken languages.

[x3n0n]

I have lost track. Is this a fair summary of the current debate?

"Learning new languages after Tongue of the Sun and Moon is completely pointless, because spoken language is already taken care of, and any written text can be read aloud by an ally, to be comprehended by the monk."

...

Another counterpoint: you can only write in a language that you know.


Yes. But that's not really a counterpoint since that is not what the ability is about.


The ability of learning a language (like at lv17) allows you to write in that language, unlike TotS&M, so it's not *completely* pointless, even if you grant allies the ability to pronounce arbitrary written texts.

(Note that the PHB actually has multiple completely different script systems; I see no reason to think that a random character who only know languages that use elvish script would know how to voice things written in draconic or dwarvish script. I can see a reasonable argument that they should be able to pronounce things written with elvish characters, but wouldn't argue with a DM who said otherwise.)


Very true. They also get a slightly weaker version of something that grave clerics get at level 2. Nothing terrible but not fantastic for a monk.

To be fair, they get the ability to spend 3 ki on the effect, which is significantly different from spending a Channel Divinity, especially when you've got at least 17 ki.

[Droppeddead]

The ability of learning a language (like at lv17) allows you to write in that language, unlike TotS&M, so it's not *completely* pointless, even if you grant allies the ability to pronounce arbitrary written texts.
There's usually nothing arbitrary about how texts are written. Most if not all written languages have grammar. And if the language doesn't have a written version you're out of luck anyways.


(Note that the PHB actually has multiple completely different script systems; I see no reason to think that a random character who only know languages that use elvish script would know how to voice things written in draconic or dwarvish script. I can see a reasonable argument that they should be able to pronounce things written with elvish characters, but wouldn't argue with a DM who said otherwise.)
Not sure why you are building this strawman, no-one has said anything about people being able to read text in alphabets you do not know. However, not knowing the language in which a text is written doesn't magically stop you from reading said text. And yet again, there actual rules says the ability works they way I've described it. Whether or not you think the rules make sense is a different topic. :smallsmile:


To be fair, they get the ability to spend 3 ki on the effect, which is significantly different from spending a Channel Divinity, especially when you've got at least 17 ki.
Yeah, you can use it a bit more often than a cleric can use their ability. The actual effect is objectively worse though. And again, I'm not really commenting on this particular ability, I was commenting on the ribbon ability.

[diplomancer]

There's usually nothing arbitrary about how texts are written. Most if not all written languages have grammar. And if the language doesn't have a written version you're out of luck anyways.


Not sure why you are building this strawman, no-one has said anything about people being able to read text in alphabets you do not know. However, not knowing the language in which a text is written doesn't magically stop you from reading said text. And yet again, there actual rules says the ability works they way I've described it. Whether or not you think the rules make sense is a different topic. :smallsmile:


Yeah, you can use it a bit more often than a cleric can use their ability. The actual effect is objectively worse though. And again, I'm not really commenting on this particular ability, I was commenting on the ribbon ability.

I am positively sure, that, on this very thread, I could pick up any post, and read a sentence from it as a Portuguese speaker (which I am), and you would not know what post and sentence I am referring if you heard it (as long as you don't speak Portuguese). Languages, and phonetics, simply don't work the way you seem to think they do. You want to give monks the ability to undestand randomly spoken sounds, be my guest, it's certainly not overpowered or broken, but that is NOT what Tongue of Sun and Moon does, definitely not by RAI or as the only possible RAW.

[x3n0n]

There's usually nothing arbitrary about how texts are written. Most if not all written languages have grammar. And if the language doesn't have a written version you're out of luck anyways.

My claim: it is useful to write in languages other than Common (especially as a scribe/scholar), and TotS&M does not allow my character to write in languages I don't know, so I get *some* benefit from learning a language even after getting TotS&M.

If I play a CS monk into tier 4, I will treat the ribbon as a ribbon: flavorful, with minimal mechanical value. (I will be happy about the knowledge Expertise.)

I will also hope that I have an ally with a powerful burst damage option of a type other then bludgeoning, like radiant (smite) or piercing (sneak attack) or a burst spell like Disintegrate. If not, then it will be much harder to take advantage of the vulnerability feature. I do like that it can tell a cool story of party teamwork, where you name a specific ally to help.

[Unoriginal]

Except that he quite obviously and literally doesn't. "Speak friend" and "say friend" is not the same thing.

It is in the language Tolkien invented for his elves. "Speak" and "say" are literally the same word in the Sindarin language (in the imperative form, at least).

"Pedo Mellon a Minno" can be translated equally validly into "speak friend and enter" and "say friend and enter".


Another example: the Latin word "acies" means at the same time "edge", "sharp", "point" "battle line", "battle", "engagement" (as in, military engagement) and "steel". Furthermore, Latin does not have articles the same way as English, and written Latin does not have punctuation or capitalization in a sentence, leaving open the possibility of "acies" being used as a name without indicator, or with a definitive article, indefinite article, or no article at all. And since "acies" is a fifth-declension noun, it can be a nominative (singular or plural), an accusative (plural) or a vocative (plural or singular).

Meanwhile, the Latin verb "timeo" means "I fear", "I am afraid of", "I apprehend", or "I am apprehensive of". And the interrogative particle can be present or not depending on style and context

In other words, the Latin sentence "timeo acies" can mean, with equal validity:


-"O Edges, I fear"

-"I am apprehensive of battles"

-"I, Steel, apprehend"

-"I am afraid of the points"

-"I fear the engagements"

-"Am I afraid of battle lines?"


And that's only a fraction of the possibilities.


Now, let's imagine that, as you suggest is RAW, someone who doesn't speak Latin reads "timeo acies" aloud in presence of a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon. What does the Monk hear or understand?

[diplomancer]

It is in the language Tolkien invented for his elves. "Speak" and "say" are literally the same word in the Sindarin language (in the imperative form, at least).

"Pedo Mellon a Minno" can be translated equally validly into "speak friend and enter" and "say friend and enter".


Another example: the Latin word "acies" means at the same time "edge", "sharp", "point" "battle line", "battle", "engagement" (as in, military engagement) and "steel". Furthermore, Latin does not have articles the same way as English, and written Latin does not have punctuation or capitalization in a sentence, leaving open the possibility of "acies" being used as a name without indicator, or with a definitive article, indefinite article, or no article at all. And since "acies" is a fifth-declension noun, it can be a nominative (singular or plural), an accusative (plural) or a vocative (plural or singular).

Meanwhile, the Latin verb "timeo" means "I fear", "I am afraid of", "I apprehend", or "I am apprehensive of". And the interrogative particle can be present or not depending on style and context

In other words, the Latin sentence "timeo acies" can mean, with equal validity:


-"O Edges, I fear"

-"I am apprehensive of battles"

-"I, Steel, apprehend"

-"I am afraid of the points"

-"I fear the engagements"

-"Am I afraid of battle lines?"


And that's only a fraction of the possibilities.


Now, let's imagine that, as you suggest is RAW, someone who doesn't speak Latin reads "timeo acies" aloud in presence of a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon. What does the Monk hear or understand?

Thank you! And let's not get started on tonal languages now...

[Droppeddead]

My claim: it is useful to write in languages other than Common (especially as a scribe/scholar), and TotS&M does not allow my character to write in languages I don't know, so I get *some* benefit from learning a language even after getting TotS&M.
Never said that it wasn't.


If I play a CS monk into tier 4, I will treat the ribbon as a ribbon: flavorful, with minimal mechanical value. (I will be happy about the knowledge Expertise.)
Never even mentioned anything about the expertise.


I will also hope that I have an ally with a powerful burst damage option of a type other then bludgeoning, like radiant (smite) or piercing (sneak attack) or a burst spell like Disintegrate. If not, then it will be much harder to take advantage of the vulnerability feature. I do like that it can tell a cool story of party teamwork, where you name a specific ally to help.
Again, not sure what that has to do with anything that is being discussed. Yes, being able to boost an ally's attack is good, it's just not as good as the grave cleric's level 2 ability.


I am positively sure, that, on this very thread, I could pick up any post, and read a sentence from it as a Portuguese speaker (which I am), and you would not know what post and sentence I am referring if you heard it (as long as you don't speak Portuguese). Languages, and phonetics, simply don't work the way you seem to think they do. You want to give monks the ability to undestand randomly spoken sounds, be my guest, it's certainly not overpowered or broken, but that is NOT what Tongue of Sun and Moon does, definitely not by RAI or as the only possible RAW.
Well, of course I wouldn't because I am not a level 13 Monk tha can also run on water and punch ghosts. Also, when you keep on using the same boring strawman it just gets old and boring. I've never said that *I* want to give monks "the ability to undestand randomly spoken sounds", you are simply lying at this point. A "spoken language" is not "randomly spoken sounds" any more than random letters is a written language. But if you tell me how to arrange a set number of letters I will still be able to write that word even if I don't know what it means and if you know what it means, you will be able to read it.

And again, do you have anything that disproves the RAW that I have quoted? Page number and paragraf please.


It is in the language Tolkien invented for his elves. "Speak" and "say" are literally the same word in the Sindarin language (in the imperative form, at least). [quote]


[quote]Now, let's imagine that, as you suggest is RAW, someone who doesn't speak Latin reads "timeo acies" aloud in presence of a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon. What does the Monk hear or understand?

And "ring" and "ring" can mean completely different things in English yet most people are fully capable of making the distinction from the context. Are you seriously suggesting that Monks would be completely unable to deal with homonymes? Could you quote a page from the rules that explains this? Again, the RAW are abundantly clear on this.

[Unoriginal]

And "ring" and "ring" can mean completely different things in English yet most people are fully capable of making the distinction from the context.

The context of the words being said is "someone saying the words without understanding the meaning or the context of the sentence."



Are you seriously suggesting that Monks would be completely unable to deal with homonymes? Could you quote a page from the rules that explains this? Again, the RAW are abundantly clear on this.


If the RAW is as clear on the topic as you're saying, then you should have no issue answering the question:

What does a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon hear or understand when someone who doesn't speak Latin reads the sentence "timeo acies" out loud?


Just to make clear, as to avoid people misconstructing other people's point, my claim is that the Monk understands spoken languages because, as the rules say, they're connecting with their interlocutors' minds via ki, and in consequence that it doesn't work if their interlocutors say something without knowing what it means.

[Amnestic]

Again, the RAW are abundantly clear on this.

I think this discussion is needlessly pedantic about a niche situation that will almost never occur in game.

But the core disagreement seems to be what it means to be a "spoken language". From the PHB (pg. 123):

Your race indicates the languages your character can speak by default, and your background might give you access to one or more additional languages of your choice. Note these languages on your character sheet

If you read letters off a page, it's not the same as speaking the language, because to be a 'spoken language', it'd have to be a language you speak, and therefore one you're fluent in anyway. If you're not fluent in it - even if you can read the letters, you can't speak it. That's RAW, right?

Or maybe not. Honestly it doesn't matter. When're you ever going to be running around with a 13+ monk and this situation actually comes up since Comprehend Languages is a 1st level ritual spell which deals with written language. And you've probably also got a half dozen scrolls of it from random loot while you're at it.

[Droppeddead]

I think this discussion is needlessly pedantic about a niche situation that will almost never occur in game.
I agree. It's weird that people can't accept the rules.


But the core disagreement seems to be what it means to be a "spoken language". From the PHB (pg. 123):
I think the main problem is that people can't seem to understand that sometimes the rules as written are a bit weird and open up for a bit of shennanigans every once in a while. Like the peasant railgun.


]If you read letters off a page, it's not the same as speaking the language, because to be a 'spoken language', it'd have to be a language you speak, and therefore one you're fluent in anyway. If you're not fluent in it - even if you can read the letters, you can't speak it. That's RAW, right?[/QUOTE]
Uhm, yes. Saying a word out loud is the literal definition of speaking a language. And no, you don't have to be fluent in a language to be able to speak it. That is both a strawman and moving the goalposts of what "spoken language" means. See my example with teh child who doesn't know what an ambulance is. Does not knowing a particular word in your own language mean that you can't "speak" it? No, of course it doesn't.


Or maybe not. Honestly it doesn't matter. When're you ever going to be running around with a 13+ monk and this situation actually comes up since Comprehend Languages is a 1st level ritual spell which deals with written language. And you've probably also got a half dozen scrolls of it from random loot while you're at it.
Exactly. When I just threw out a comment about monk abilities I didn't imagine that it was this important and personal to so many people.


The context of the words being said is "someone saying the words without understanding the meaning or the context of the sentence."
And, once again for the people in the back, even though the speaker doesn't understand the words they are saying doesn't mean that people listening will magically be unable to understand those same words.



If the RAW is as clear on the topic as you're saying, then you should have no issue answering the question:
You're being intellectually dishonest. I have quoted the sources for my claims, you have not. If you don't answer my questions, why should I answer yours?


What does a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon hear or understand when someone who doesn't speak Latin reads the sentence "timeo acies" out loud?
The same that anyone who understands Latin would hear, of course.


Just to make clear, as to avoid people misconstructing other people's point, my claim is that the Monk understands spoken languages because, as the rules say, they're connecting with their interlocutors' minds via ki, and in consequence that it doesn't work if their interlocutors say something without knowing what it means.
Yes, and the only condition that needs required for the monk to understand the person is that it needs to be a "spoken language". Doesn't say anything about homonyms not working, doesn't say anything about people not being allowed to read or accents or slang anything else you and others claim. And again, refer back to all the numerous examples and demonstrations of how language and communications actually work. If you read a word in a language I know and you don't I will be able to understand you. It's not any different from being in school and asking your teacher "What does Krankenwagen mean?"

[KorvinStarmast]

So Mercer still hasn't a clue about balance (paladin). Stop the presses!

Tolkien digression into Latin
Did Boromir wind1 his horn or wind his2 horn?

Wind1 rhymes with grinned
Wind2 rhymed with fined.

[diplomancer]

RAI is abundantly clear. If designers wanted the ability to work the way you think it does, why add the "spoken" clause? To create a needlessly complicated loophole? Just say "you can understand all language", period.

What about RAW? RAW, as has been pointed out, depends on what a spoken language is. Looking at a text you don't understand and reading it out aloud while horribly mispronouncing every single word until it becomes a complete mess does not constitute "spoken language". That you don't know how languages and phonetics work, specially how somewhat arbitrary phonetic rules are between different language systems, is not my problem.

For instance if you said the Portuguese word "acho" ("I think", or "I find", sounds something like "AH-shu") , using the words of English pronounciation, which might make it sound something like a sneeze, I'd have a hard time understanding that you mean "acho", even being a native portuguese speaker. Now think of that problem for a whole sentence, paragraph, or text. There might be plenty of situations where I simply won't know what you mean, and many others where I might think I understand but it's actually something entirely different (because you mispronounced the word so badly that I understood a different word).

Now think of tonal languages. How does someone who does not speak the language, but knows the script used, COULD say the text correctly when they read it? And if the reader said it wrong, saying A where the text says B, how is "touching other people's mind with his ki" going to help the monk understand it? What about language systems that don't write down vowels (because their speakers simply KNOW, from context, which vowels are supposed to be put where when speaking the word)?


So, RAI, it doesn't work. RAW, it MIGHT work, if DM doesn't know how languages and phonetics work.

[Droppeddead]

RAI is abundantly clear. If designers wanted the ability to work the way you think it does, why add the "spoken" clause? To create a needlessly complicated loophole? Just say "you can understand all language", period.
Irrelevant. We are not discussing RAI. RAW is clear, you have yet to present anything that supports your claim.


What about RAW? RAW, as has been pointed out, depends on what a spoken language is. Looking at a text you don't understand and reading it out aloud while horribly mispronouncing every single word until it becomes a complete mess does not constitute "spoken language". That you don't know how languages and phonetics work, specially how somewhat arbitrary phonetic rules are between different language systems, is not my problem.

Again, you are moving the goalposts as to what makes up a language and you are making a strawman argument about random sounds being a language. If you say a word in a language, even if you don't understand it or doesn't pronunce it perfectly, you are speaking that word. It's really *that* simple.


For instance if you said the Portuguese word "acho" ("I think", or "I find", sounds something like "AH-shu") , using the words of English pronounciation, which might make it sound something like a sneeze, I'd have a hard time understanding that you mean "acho", even being a native portuguese speaker. Now think of that problem for a whole sentence, paragraph, or text. There might be plenty of situations where I simply won't know what you mean, and many others where I might think I understand but it's actually something entirely different (because you mispronounced the word so badly that I understood a different word).
Again, irrelevant. Otherwise you would have to take into account dialects, accents, words changing meaning over time, slang, et cetera. The claim that Monks wouldn't be able to understand homonyms is just absurd and has no support in the rules.


Now think of tonal languages. How does someone who does not speak the language, but knows the script used, COULD say the text correctly when they read it? And if the reader said it wrong, saying A where the text says B, how is "touching other people's mind with his ki" going to help the monk understand it? What about language systems that don't write down vowels (because their speakers simply KNOW, from context, which vowels are supposed to be put where when speaking the word)?
Again, irrelevant.


So, RAI, it doesn't work. RAW, it MIGHT work, if DM doesn't know how languages and phonetics work.
Except for the fact that "RAI" is just your opinion and RAW is abundantly clear and doesn't support your claims. In D&D 5E languages are very simplified and there are no rules for speech impediments, slang, dialects or accents to take into account.

Now please quote a rule that supports your claim or at least admit that there isn't such a rule.

[Luccan]

The ability to sound out a language is not the same as speaking it. If it were, then to go further down this line of reasoning you could use whatever sounds you please as long as you were consistent throughout the reading. It would be as consistent and contain just as much meaning to the speaker (and to any listener without magic or unfamiliar with the language). And even if we ignore that, this situation still requires you to know how phonemes in the language should be pronounced based on the text without actually knowing what the text says. While this is technically possible, it would require familiarity with the script and that still only works if the use of those characters follows similar rules to ones you know. This isn't always the case, which is why most native English speakers can't sound out Welsh words.

[diplomancer]

Irrelevant. We are not discussing RAI. RAW is clear, you have yet to present anything that supports your claim.


Again, you are moving the goalposts as to what makes up a language and you are making a strawman argument about random sounds being a language. If you say a word in a language, even if you don't understand it or doesn't pronunce it perfectly, you are speaking that word. It's really *that* simple.
What if I mispronounce it and so say a different word? Which word am I speaking, the one on the page or the one I'm actually saying? Which one would the monk understand, the one written down or the one he hears?

I will give a simple example; coco. In Portuguese, if the stress is in the first syllable, it means coconut, if it's in the second syllable, it means excrement. If you read out loud "eu amo coco" ("I love coco") and mispronounce the word, hilarity would ensue, specially if the person hearing you only has the magical ability to understand what you say, but does not know about the existence of the other meaning (and so cannot realize that you mean something else, and unlike a teacher who knows the language would, cannot correct you).

Now, this is a VERY simple word. And still there's room for misunderstanding. Imagine now that I'm a Turkish-only speaker, and when I read "coco" I say "djodjo" (because that's how those letters are translated into sounds in Turkish). A Portuguese speaker who is familiar with Turkish rules of pronounciantion and how they differ from Portugues rules of pronounciation might figure out what was meant. Everyone else, the Monk included, would hear "djodjo" and have no idea what it means. It would be, as I've said before, "a meaningless combination of sounds", not "a spoken language"


Again, irrelevant. Otherwise you would have to take into account dialects, accents, words changing meaning over time, slang, et cetera. The claim that Monks wouldn't be able to understand homonyms is just absurd and has no support in the rules.


Again, irrelevant.


Except for the fact that "RAI" is just your opinion and RAW is abundantly clear and doesn't support your claims. In D&D 5E languages are very simplified and there are no rules for speech impediments, slang, dialects or accents to take into account.

Now please quote a rule that supports your claim or at least admit that there isn't such a rule.

You know, calling people's arguments "irrelevant" does not make it so. Why did designers add "spoken" if they wanted Monks to understand all languages, whether written or spoken? Why have this needlessly complicated loophole? The intent of the rule is, very obviously, to enable person to person, oral, communication (as has been pointed out already, dealing with written text, in D&D, by the time the ability becomes available, is trivial).

Please quote the rule that proves your claim "In D&D 5E languages are very simplified". Languages are as complicated or as simple as the DM wants to make them. What IS very simplified is how to measure PROFICIENCY in the different languages (a yes/no switch). But as to how complicated they are, well, PHB says that it takes 250 days with 8 hours study to learn one. 2000 hours to learn a language means that ALL languages in D&D are VERY complicated (slightly less than category 5 "languages which are exceptionally difficult for English speakers" , far more than category 4 "languages with significant linguistic and/or cultural differences from English" which are the most complicated categories here: https://www.clozemaster.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/fsi-foreign-service-institute-language-difficulty.png

Considering how complicated D&D languages are, according to the RAW at least, it is ludicrous to believe that, just by virtue of knowing a different language that shares their script, a non-speaker would be able to read out loud a text and make it in anyway coherent (and, as it is incoherent , it is not a "spoken language")

[Droppeddead]

Since most of this is just repetition of things that has already been adressed, I'll just add a few quick comments and point out that you still haven't cited any rules that support any of your claims.



You know, calling people's arguments "irrelevant" does not make it so. Why did designers add "spoken" if they wanted Monks to understand all languages, whether written or spoken?
Please stop lying about what I have said. I've never claimed that monks understand all written languages. But the fact of how reality works means that once you read a written text out loud, it is then "spoken". You are literally arguing against how sound works.


Why have this needlessly complicated loophole? The intent of the rule is, very obviously, to enable person to person, oral, communication (as has been pointed out already, dealing with written text, in D&D, by the time the ability becomes available, is trivial).
Or you know, it could just be an oversight, like with the peasant rail gun.


Please quote the rule that proves your claim "In D&D 5E languages are very simplified". Languages are as complicated or as simple as the DM wants to make them. What IS very simplified is how to measure PROFICIENCY in the different languages (a yes/no switch). But as to how complicated they are, well, PHB says that it takes 250 days with 8 hours study to learn one. 2000 hours to learn a language means that ALL languages in D&D are VERY complicated (slightly less than category 5 "languages which are exceptionally difficult for English speakers" , far more than category 4 "languages with significant linguistic and/or cultural differences from English" which are the most complicated categories here: https://www.clozemaster.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/fsi-foreign-service-institute-language-difficulty.png
So once more, instead of following the rules as written you choose to go off on a tangent. Yes, the DM can make things more complicated, the DM can do anything they want. That is not the topic of this discussion though.


Considering how complicated D&D languages are, according to the RAW at least, it is ludicrous to believe that, just by virtue of knowing a different language that shares their script, a non-speaker would be able to read out loud a text and make it in anyway coherent (and, as it is incoherent , it is not a "spoken language")
Well, first of all, they're not. Second of all, what actually is ludicrous is your claim that someone must be able to perfectly speak a language, without dialects, speach impediments, slang or accents, to be able to read a word in that language.

When are you going to quote a rule that supports any of your claims?

[diplomancer]

Since most of this is just repetition of things that has already been adressed, I'll just add a few quick comments and point out that you still haven't cited any rules that support any of your claims.


Please stop lying about what I have said. I've never claimed that monks understand all written languages. But the fact of how reality works means that once you read a written text out loud, it is then "spoken". You are literally arguing against how sound works.


Or you know, it could just be an oversight, like with the peasant rail gun.


So once more, instead of following the rules as written you choose to go off on a tangent. Yes, the DM can make things more complicated, the DM can do anything they want. That is not the topic of this discussion though.


Well, first of all, they're not. Second of all, what actually is ludicrous is your claim that someone must be able to perfectly speak a language, without dialects, speach impediments, slang or accents, to be able to read a word in that language.

When are you going to quote a rule that supports any of your claims?

Please, don't put words in my mouth. I have never claimed "someone must be able to perfectly speak a language, without dialects, speach impediments, slang or accents, to be able to read a word in that language". Making a strawman of other's arguments does not strengthen your own.

"Djodjo" is, in Portuguese, a meaningless combination of sounds. "Eu amo djodjo" makes no sense at all, it is not a question of dialects, speech impediments, slang or accents, it's simply wrong and entirely meaningless; if someone says that sentence, the Monk CAN'T understand it; at best, he will understand the speaker loves something, he will not know what it is (whether it is excrement, coconuts, or something else entirely different, perhaps "bobó", a delicious Brazilian dish- don't mix it up with "bobo", " a fool").

Again, please quote where it says that D&D languages are simplified. I have indicated the rules that imply they are actually quite complex and difficult (and entirely unrelated between each other, since knowing one language does not, by RAW, help you learn others... another indication that sharing a script does not mean that the letters translate to the same, or similar, sounds).

[Unoriginal]

It's not "rules as written", it's "rules as read".

You've read "spoken languages" and deduced it meant "any language that is vocalised, even if the vocalisation is wrong".

That is not what "spoken languages" means to me. A kid who asks what "Krankenwagen" means is not speaking German, someone who reads "timeo acies" out loud with no idea which of the potential dozens of meanings it can have is not speaking Latin, and to use diplomancer's example a Turkish person pronouncing "coco" as "djodjo" is not speaking Portuguese.

If you want to argue that your reading of the rule is the Correct One, do it, but stop claiming that you're following RAW and we're not. We haven't quoted a rule because we're using the same rule as you.

A Monk understand all spoken languages by connecting to the speaker's mind with ki. That is the rule for Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I don't know why one would argue that it can give knowledge that isn't present in anyone present's mind.

[Sception]

Have they nerfed Marine Layer already? I could swear it was totally a bit different yesterday...

Twice. They nerfed it twice already. Unless I'm losing my marbles (possible I guess, I am getting up in years), it originally said you and creatures you choose can see through the fog normally with no penalties (not even lightly obscured).

Then they nerfed it to say you and creatures you choose /within 5 feet/ can see through it normally with no penalties.

Then they nerfed it to say you and /all creatures/ within 5 feet of you treat the entire area as lightly obscured instead of heavily obscured.

Who knows what it will say tomorrow.

[micahaphone]

To make a real world analogy of the "Tongue of the Sun and Moon" bit,

If me and my friends only know english, spanish, german, and french, but one of us can understand any spoken language, I don't think any of us could read aloud russian, mandarin, thai, vietnamese, or other languages with a different script. Your workaround would allow our universal speaker to understand swedish or italian, which uses the same alphabet and it's maybe possible for a non speaker to sound it out, if they have learned some details about the language ("double c means a ch sound here" for italian, for example).

I believe the confusion in the arguments is whether finding a document written in a language no one knows is readable or not is like asking if it's written in swedish or in japanese, to continue our real world language analogy.

I know from the player's handbook that dwarvish has its own script, but it's also used for the orcish language, so perhaps someone proficient in dwarvish may be able to read aloud some orcish writing. I'm not sure - if dwarvish and orcish are like italian and spanish, then it'd probably be feasible. If it's more like italian and polish, then I doubt sharing the same alphabet will matter.

[Unoriginal]

To make a real world analogy of the "Tongue of the Sun and Moon" bit,

If me and my friends only know english, spanish, german, and french, but one of us can understand any spoken language, I don't think any of us could read aloud russian, mandarin, thai, vietnamese, or other languages with a different script. Your workaround would allow our universal speaker to understand swedish or italian, which uses the same alphabet and it's maybe possible for a non speaker to sound it out, if they have learned some details about the language ("double c means a ch sound here" for italian, for example).

I believe the confusion in the arguments is whether finding a document written in a language no one knows is readable or not is like asking if it's written in swedish or in japanese, to continue our real world language analogy.

I know from the player's handbook that dwarvish has its own script, but it's also used for the orcish language, so perhaps someone proficient in dwarvish may be able to read aloud some orcish writing. I'm not sure - if dwarvish and orcish are like italian and spanish, then it'd probably be feasible. If it's more like italian and polish, then I doubt sharing the same alphabet will matter.

My point: someone who speak Dwarvish and who reads a text in Orcish aloud isn't speaking Orcish.

Or in other words: a spoken language is not someone reading text of that language aloud without understanding the meaning of the words.

[Droppeddead]

Please, don't put words in my mouth. I have never claimed "someone must be able to perfectly speak a language, without dialects, speach impediments, slang or accents, to be able to read a word in that language". Making a strawman of other's arguments does not strengthen your own.
Well, you do since you keep talking about different pronunciations.


"Djodjo" is, in Portuguese, a meaningless combination of sounds. "Eu amo djodjo" makes no sense at all, it is not a question of dialects, speech impediments, slang or accents, it's simply wrong and entirely meaningless; if someone says that sentence,
the Monk CAN'T understand it; at best, he will understand the speaker loves something, he will not know what it is (whether it is excrement, coconuts, or something else entirely different, perhaps "bobó", a delicious Brazilian dish- don't mix it up with "bobo", " a fool").
Again, gibberish is not a language. If it can't be understood by someone who speaks the language, it can't be understood by the Monk. That goes without saying but no-one has ever claimed that it does. COuld you please answer the questions instead of delfecting with these neverending strawmen and moving of the goalposts?


Again, please quote where it says that D&D languages are simplified. I have indicated the rules that imply they are actually quite complex and difficult (and entirely unrelated between each other, since knowing one language does not, by RAW, help you learn others... another indication that sharing a script does not mean that the letters translate to the same, or similar, sounds).
I said that, because that's how languages work. You don't have a sliding scale, you either have proficiency or you don't and, thank you for making my argument for me, knowing one language doesn't help you learn others. Again, I am talking strictly about the rules as they are written. If you want to talk about your own personal opinions of the game, this is not the place.


My point: someone who speak Dwarvish and who reads a text in Orcish aloud isn't speaking Orcish.

Or in other words: a spoken language is not someone reading text of that language aloud without understanding the meaning of the words.
Except that that is quite literally the what speaking is. You are trying to change the definition of everyday words to suit your narrative.


It's not "rules as written", it's "rules as read".
Well, the rules are read as they are written, are they not?


You've read "spoken languages" and deduced it meant "any language that is vocalised, even if the vocalisation is wrong".
Now, that is your interpretation. Please don't make things up. And basically what you are saying is that monks can't understand speech impendiments, slang or dialects and we've already covered that.


That is not what "spoken languages" means to me.
Well, if you want to change the definitions of words and phrases you are of course welcome to do so. But that doesn't make it relevant to the topic.


A kid who asks what "Krankenwagen" means is not speaking German,
So what language are they speaking? Or are you saying that if you use a word you don't know teh meaning of you are no longer speaking? What are you doing then? Singing? Miming? Farting?


someone who reads "timeo acies" out loud with no idea which of the potential dozens of meanings it can have is not speaking Latin,
Are you seriously suggesting that homonyms are not a part of spoken languages? :O


and to use diplomancer's example a Turkish person pronouncing "coco" as "djodjo" is not speaking Portuguese.

And no-one ever said it did. Please don't strawman.


If you want to argue that your reading of the rule is the Correct One, do it, but stop claiming that you're following RAW and we're not. We haven't quoted a rule because we're using the same rule as you.
That's just a lie. There is nothing in the rules that says anything about the speaker being able to understand the words they say or that you can't use Turkish pronunciations. I have never said anything about me "following RAW". I have merely stated what RAW is. And RAW only requires it to be "spoken languages". Everything else is just you making things up.


A Monk understand all spoken languages by connecting to the speaker's mind with ki. That is the rule for Tongue of the Sun and Moon. I don't know why one would argue that it can give knowledge that isn't present in anyone present's mind.
Again, the requirement of the rule is that the language is "spoken". The how (connecting through ki) is just that, a flavour text on how it is done.

Honestly, I'm quite amazed that so many people feel that a badly worded rule is such an issue. If you don't like the rules as written, just change them.

[Unoriginal]

Except that that is quite literally the what speaking is. You are trying to change the definition of everyday words to suit your narrative.

"Speaking" isn't the same as "spoken language", and saying words out loud isn't the same as speaking a language.



Well, the rules are read as they are written, are they not?

Of course not. What one understand while reading is an interpretation of what is written by the reader.

Otherwise it would be impossible for two different people to read the same sentence and understand it differently.



Now, that is your interpretation. Please don't make things up. And basically what you are saying is that monks can't understand speech impendiments, slang or dialects and we've already covered that.

They can, if the person whose mind they're connecting with via ki knows the meaning of what they're saying.



So what language are they speaking?

Assuming they're asking "what does 'Krankenwagen' means?", they're speaking English.



Are you seriously suggesting that homonyms are not a part of spoken languages?

No, I'm not.

1) those are NOT homonyms, they're polysemic words. "Acies" is one word with multiple meanings, homonyms are different words of different origins that end up written/pronounced the same.

2) polysemic words are part of spoken languages, and people who understand the language in question will know the different meanings. Someone who doesn't know what the word means at all due to not speaking the language will not know the multiple, equally valid of the word, and so Tongue of the Sun and Moon cannot pick up a meaning.



And no-one ever said it did. Please don't strawman.



That's just a lie. There is nothing in the rules that says anything about the speaker being able to understand the words they say or that you can't use Turkish pronunciations.

So now someone who is using Turkish pronunciations for Portuguese words is speaking Portuguese?



Again, the requirement of the rule is that the language is "spoken". The how (connecting through ki) is just that, a flavour text on how it is done.

Please show me where it's written "it's flavour text, ignore it".

This isn't 4e, there is no separation between "flavor text" and rules.



Honestly, I'm quite amazed that so many people feel that a badly worded rule is such an issue. If you don't like the rules as written, just change them.

I haven't seen anyone have issues with the rule, everyone who has been debating you have been debating your assertions on the rule and on languages in general.

[diplomancer]

Well, you do since you keep talking about different pronunciations.


Again, gibberish is not a language. If it can't be understood by someone who speaks the language, it can't be understood by the Monk. That goes without saying but no-one has ever claimed that it does.

Thank you. That's my point. Sharing a script does NOT, by RAW, give anyone the ability to read out loud languages they don't understand and produce anything different from gibberish. If you will notice, those alphabet correspondence tables, in the PHB, DON'T come with an assigned phonetic value. You may want to give your players that ability if you want, perhaps because, in your setting, languages that share the same script assign the same phonetic value and have the same rules of pronounciation to their letters, but that's nowhere in the rules. Specially since, by RAW, D&D languages are about as distant to each other as English is from Mandarin, even if they happen to share the same script, so the odds of them assigning the same phonetic value to the letters are pretty low.



COuld you please answer the questions instead of delfecting with these neverending strawmen and moving of the goalposts?


I said that, because that's how languages work. You don't have a sliding scale, you either have proficiency or you don't and, thank you for making my argument for me, knowing one language doesn't help you learn others. Again, I am talking strictly about the rules as they are written. If you want to talk about your own personal opinions of the game, this is not the place.


Except that that is quite literally the what speaking is. You are trying to change the definition of everyday words to suit your narrative.


Well, the rules are read as they are written, are they not?


Now, that is your interpretation. Please don't make things up. And basically what you are saying is that monks can't understand speech impendiments, slang or dialects and we've already covered that.


Well, if you want to change the definitions of words and phrases you are of course welcome to do so. But that doesn't make it relevant to the topic.


So what language are they speaking? Or are you saying that if you use a word you don't know teh meaning of you are no longer speaking? What are you doing then? Singing? Miming? Farting?


Are you seriously suggesting that homonyms are not a part of spoken languages? :O


And no-one ever said it did. Please don't strawman.


That's just a lie. There is nothing in the rules that says anything about the speaker being able to understand the words they say or that you can't use Turkish pronunciations. I have never said anything about me "following RAW". I have merely stated what RAW is. And RAW only requires it to be "spoken languages". Everything else is just you making things up.


Again, the requirement of the rule is that the language is "spoken". The how (connecting through ki) is just that, a flavour text on how it is done.

Honestly, I'm quite amazed that so many people feel that a badly worded rule is such an issue. If you don't like the rules as written, just change them.

Let's say you are a 13th level monk who speaks only Arabic. And I'm a Turkish -only speaker. We are adventuring together when we suddenly come into a scription in the Latin alphabet; it says "eu amo coco". You ask me: "Hey, you know that script, right? What does it say?", and I answer "it says 'eu amo djodjo". In this particular case, would you understand that the inscription says "I love coconut"? Would you, in fact, be even able to understand "I love...", as I don't know what "eu amo" means? What if "eu amo" means something else entirely different in another, unrelated, language? How does touching my mind with your ki would help you understand the sentence?

Isn't it interesting how you dismiss as "flavor text" written rules that go against your interpretation of how the rule works, though those who follow that flavour text are mostly in agreement about what the ability does?

This whole argument shows how tricky language actually is, even when people are speaking the same language. The very fact that so many people read the same paragraph you do, in the same language, and come to different conclusions about what the RAW is, is a strike about your interpretation of RAW... if only our ki could touch the mind of the designers through their written text....

[x3n0n]

Again, the requirement of the rule is that the language is "spoken". The how (connecting through ki) is just that, a flavour text on how it is done.

Honestly, I'm quite amazed that so many people feel that a badly worded rule is such an issue. If you don't like the rules as written, just change them.

Just so we are all on the same page:



Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Starting at 13th level, you learn to touch the ki of other minds so that you understand all spoken languages. Moreover, any creature that can understand a language can understand what you say.


The second sentence is irrelevant to this debate, so we can just look at the first sentence.

Everyone agrees that "you understand all spoken languages", just leaving the question of what constitutes spoken language that can be understood.

Extreme positions:

* Vocal utterances made correctly by a competent speaker to express some thought in that person's mind, conveying the meaning of that thought.
* Any vocal utterance that has syllables (but what meaning does gibberish have)?

The first may be too strict, although the "flavor text" suggests that the "mind" of the speaker is relevant. The last is too lenient, to the point of being clearly nonsensical.

You seem to think there is some intermediate position that is the "obvious" definition, but I can't tell what it is.

Can you describe the necessary and sufficient conditions for some utterance to constitute an example of spoken language, and with what meaning? (For example, one definition might be "An utterance with perfect auditory correspondence to a native speaker's sentence, carrying the same meaning as that sentence.")

Consider how your definition interacts with this example: I do not understand the pronunciation rules for Hungarian, even though it uses a similar alphabet to English. I attempt to read a Hungarian text aloud and a native Hungarian cannot understand what I say because I pronounce things incorrectly. What will a TotS&M Monk hear?

Edit: ninja'ed

[CMCC]

Well... this thread went off the ****ing rails.