Hypothesis about Minrahs role in the story

[Riftwolf]

(I'm not calling it a theory without evidence)

The Giant has previously stated he worked out the broad strokes of the plot some 15 years ago, with Durkon's vampirism being one of the oldest arcs he figured out. While he had the general idea of where the arc would go (and how it'd impact the final book), he didn't have all the details nailed down till he came to write them.
My hypothesis is that Hilgya was meant to have Minrahs role in the story, but when Rich came to actually writing it, he realised that it wouldn't work the way he wanted so introduced a new character to fill the role. If this is correct, it means Minrah is indispensable to the plot.
I don't really have any evidence to back this up, but I get the feeling there were lots of things about Hilgya that played differently due to changing times and the tone of the book altering away from Looney Tunes skit-comedy.

[Ionathus]

I saw

Minrah's role in the story
in the title and came here ready to rant about Women in Refrigerators again. So glad to see that wasn't the case!

Interesting theory -- I suppose it's possible, but my personal guess is that she was a happy discovery while Rich was writing the Firmament arc, and he enjoyed writing her so much that he wanted to keep her around.

I particularly love how she sees The Order with a fresh set of eyes, especially how supportive she is of Belkar (I imagine that dissonance will show up at some point -- maybe when he dies and she's the only one who's sad?). I also notice and deeply appreciate Rich's consistent work to bring the gender ratio closer to even, especially within the heroes' team. I know he's stated before that he regrets having Haley be the only woman on the original team.

Finally, I think she opens up some good dialogue possibilities for Durkon. He gets someone else to discuss the God Stuff with, especially as the story converges on the importance of said God Stuff. I wonder if Rich really enjoyed writing Durkon/Malack dialogue and wanted to replicate that "two clerics" dynamic again.

Plus, I know Rich has several quotes about this in the Utterly Dwarfed commentary plus some Patreon responses, especially about getting "new blood" to keep the jokes fresh. But those could easily back up either of our theories, or any number of others, so I'm not gonna take them as complete proof of anything.

[Darth Paul]

Minrah was certainly an opportunity for Durkon to show off his newer, more assertive side after his extended character arc and realization that he's been acted upon, or reacting, far more than he's been taking the initiative and acting for the majority of the comic. And while suddenly asserting a leadership dynamic would have been awkward with any of the established cast, Minrah is in a perfect position to let him show his leadership chops, as a junior cleric who is already dedicated to the same cause and looks up to Durkon (but let's get this straight, she's not prepared to take any guff off him either!). She's also a sounding board for Durkon's character development, in the same way as Blackwing for V. Through their conversations, we can witness the changes in Durkon's character.

I would sum up her role as "Heroic Sidekick"; Robin to Durkon's Batman.

[KorvinStarmast]

I saw in the title and came here ready to rant about Women in Refrigerators again. My mother taught us, when we were kids, not to play in refrigerators. :smallcool:

[dancrilis]

My mother taught us, when we were kids, not to play in refrigerators. :smallcool:

Your mother (like many mothers) apparently regarded it as her job to try to kill fun and education


I saw in the title and came here ready to rant about Women in Refrigerators again.
... so only men can play in the refrigerator?

To summerise refrigerators are awesome and we should all learn more about them both in our personal and professional lives.

[KorvinStarmast]

To summerise refrigerators are awesome and we should all learn more about them both in our personal and professional lives. To summarize:
beer belongs in refrigerators, not children. :smallwink:

[Riftwolf]

I saw

in the title and came here ready to rant about Women in Refrigerators again. So glad to see that wasn't the case!


Luckily I had an idea marginally more interesting than 'Minrah will be killed by Xykon/Redcloak/Oona/Right-Eye/Brurid from Skyrim to further Durkon's story'

[Ionathus]

... so only men can play in the refrigerator?

To summerise refrigerators are awesome and we should all learn more about them both in our personal and professional lives.

I can't tell if you're sarcastic, but I was referencing the Women in Refrigerators trope (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators): there's a tendency (especially in comic books written by men) for female characters to be killed, not as part of their own narrative arcs, but as a motivating factor for the (usually male) main character.

Given that Rich has specifically poked fun at this trope (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1192.html), I'd say "Minrah dying to make Durkon feel sad/bad/whatever" is probably off the table.

[Precure]

I expect her to be a some sort of "last minute before the finale" replacement for Belkar, who's fated to die.

[Metastachydium]

I expect her to be a some sort of "last minute before the finale" replacement for Belkar, who's fated to die.

Dunno. That would feel off.

[Goblin_Priest]

I expect her to be a some sort of "last minute before the finale" replacement for Belkar, who's fated to die.


Dunno. That would feel off.

Well, if we are talking about substitution...

What's in the Order that's the most like a dwarven cleric of Thor?

Oh, right, the other dwarven cleric of Thor.

I'm not saying I think that Durkon will die and she will replace him, though. It feels like we've already dealt with the loss of Durkon, and she's not really powerful enough to replace him. She's also more of a martial-style cleric (I think she has fighter levels? or was it some NPC class like warrior?).

I'm not convinced one of the order's members will face a permanent death. Who could it be? Sure, Belkar has the ''Redemption means Death'' going against him, as he started out as pretty evil and has been for most of the strip.

V dying would kinda null the whole IFCC thing, unless that was meant as a red herring, which seems doubtful. "Never because a third party killed him" being the answer to "when will the IFCC take V next" would not be really satisfying.

Elan and Haley have never died. Never really came close. Elan was put in jail for a short time. Haley... uh... nothing, that I recall?

Haley's also a pretty subpar female marital character like Minrah. So... maybe that's the substitution in mind?

But that scenario doesn't really fit in my head. So I'm not really inclined to go with the whole substitution hypothesis.

[KorvinStarmast]

The IFCC will pull V out twice more before this is all over. I think that's been foreshadowed.

Minrah provides some back up when that happens, though she's multiclassed and hardly a V replacement. Her other role seems to be something Rich mentioned a few years ago about coming up with another strong female character. Hilgya's return was (I thought) that fulfilled but I appear to have missed my guess on that. Minrah, on the other hand, has motive that we see unfold during her "head to Valhalla to have beers with Thor- no, wait, I have unfinished business" strips.

And then there's her work with Belkar - be the new you! - so I think that what Minrah's place in the story is intended to be is a strong female character. We'll see her grow during this book.
I like Minrah, so I hope I am right.
I carry my fists in my heart! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html)
What's not to love? :smallcool:

[deltamire]

Sometimes a late-coming supporting character who comes in during the third act and contributes to the story is just that - a supporting character who comes in during the third act and contributes to the story. She doesn't need to turf any other character out for narrative importance, and I'd be genuinely shocked if anyone in the Order is axed just to let Minrah take their place. There's no rule that we can only have six characters of note! She doesn't need to emulate anyone else's characterisation or replace them, either. Minrah has her own arc and dynamics ticking over quietly in the background, and there's probably going to be enough of this last book to explore her in an acceptable level of detail.

She's fun and zany and driven and she adds a new perspective to the themes explored with characters like Durkon and Belkar. She brings new chances for character interactions and she's genuinely, heartfully weird in a way characters like her usually aren't written as, and she's fun to draw. That's enough for me.

[Metastachydium]

Well, if we are talking about substitution...

What's in the Order that's the most like a dwarven cleric of Thor?

Oh, right, the other dwarven cleric of Thor.

I'm not saying I think that Durkon will die and she will replace him, though. It feels like we've already dealt with the loss of Durkon, and she's not really powerful enough to replace him. She's also more of a martial-style cleric (I think she has fighter levels? or was it some NPC class like warrior?).

I'm not convinced one of the order's members will face a permanent death. Who could it be? Sure, Belkar has the ''Redemption means Death'' going against him, as he started out as pretty evil and has been for most of the strip.

V dying would kinda null the whole IFCC thing, unless that was meant as a red herring, which seems doubtful. "Never because a third party killed him" being the answer to "when will the IFCC take V next" would not be really satisfying.

Elan and Haley have never died. Never really came close. Elan was put in jail for a short time. Haley... uh... nothing, that I recall?

Haley's also a pretty subpar female marital character like Minrah. So... maybe that's the substitution in mind?


Alternatively, Minrah could replace Roy. They both have fighter levels, and neither of them is an arcane caster.
I think we have our new protagonist!

[Goblin_Priest]

Alternatively, Minrah could replace Roy. They both have fighter levels, and neither of them is an arcane caster.
I think we have our new protagonist!

RoY aLrEaDy DiEd ThO

;)

[Ron Miel]

I think her role in the story will be to act as a spiritual advisor to Belkar, and help him with his character development. Maybe even be his love interest, his first real relationship, not a one night stand, or a sex worker.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think her role in the story will be to act as a spiritual advisor to Belkar, and help him with his character development. Maybe even be his love interest, his first real relationship, not a one night stand, or a sex worker.

Plausible, and I do think we've seen her in a few panels serving this role.

Though I'm kinda of leaning against the love interest angle. I don't think their relationship needs to be romantic to be significant.

[deltamire]

I think her role in the story will be to act as a spiritual advisor to Belkar, and help him with his character development. Maybe even be his love interest, his first real relationship, not a one night stand, or a sex worker.
Making a character who has had a whole, uh . . . three scenes where she interacts with Belkar, one being entirely focused on his relationship with another man (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html) (or dwarf, I guess) and the second being one where he's interrupting her talking to another character (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1188.html) become Belkar's love interest in order to note the fact that he's only recently really begun to treat women who are sexually available to him with respect would certainly be a Choice.

Besides, everyone knows that if Minrah's going to have a romantic tryst with a morally ambiguous ranger she's only recently met after having a super-awkward meet cute with, it's gonna be Oona.

[KorvinStarmast]

Besides, everyone knows that if Minrah's going to have a romantic tryst with a morally ambiguous ranger she's only recently met after having a super-awkward meet cute with, it's gonna be Oona. They for sure did not get off on the right foot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1213.html), but neither did Princess Leia and Han Solo (if we go back to original Star Wars) so it's not as though there's not hope for those who engage in shipping speculation ...

[Ron Miel]

Making a character who has had a whole, uh . . . three scenes where she interacts with Belkar, one being entirely focused on his relationship with another man (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html) (or dwarf, I guess) and the second being one where he's interrupting her talking to another character (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1188.html) become Belkar's love interest in order to note the fact that he's only recently really begun to treat women who are sexually available to him with respect would certainly be a Choice.

Yeah, but look at the third scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html)they share.

Minrah: When you make a change, everyone who meets you from that point on? Only knows the new version of you. And that's nice.

I think this is the beginning of something important.

[Ionathus]

Yeah, but look at the third scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html)they share.

Minrah: When you make a change, everyone who meets you from that point on? Only knows the new version of you. And that's nice.

I think this is the beginning of something important.

You're right, it is the beginning of something important.

Namely, a platonic friendship.

[KorvinStarmast]

You're right, it is the beginning of something important.

Namely, a platonic friendship. That's my read as well. The only emotional attachment that Belkar admits is to Mr Scruffy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html) (bottom left corner panel). He's slowly coming to realize that he cares for Durkon as a friend, so his recent acquaintance and battle buddy, Minrah, is someone he's getting used to even though his first impression was that he didn't want to know their names (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1094.html): any of the three dwarves who were on watch on the night that the Order showed up in Firmament. I think their friendship will become a nice thread in the overall weave of this book until Belkar bites the dust.

Which means that, to me, her role in the story is to sub in for Belkar once he dies doing {something narratively significant}.

[Riftwolf]

I think her role in the story will be to act as a spiritual advisor to Belkar, and help him with his character development. Maybe even be his love interest, his first real relationship, not a one night stand, or a sex worker.

Hm I'm going with no on this. I dislike it when women are paired off with male protagonists to further the man's story at the expense of the woman's (cough Gamora cough)

[understatement]

Hm I'm going with no on this. I dislike it when women are paired off with male protagonists to further the man's story at the expense of the woman's (cough Gamora cough)

I would also like to veto this prospect, on the count of pairing Minrah with a known serial killer.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would also like to veto this prospect, on the count of pairing Minrah with a known serial killer. But aren't all of the PCs known serial killers? :smallbiggrin: (I suspect Redcloak would see them that way)

[Worldsong]

I believe Minrah's role in the story is to be as Minrah as she can be. In fact she might even go Maxrah in her attempt to be maximum Minrah.

[understatement]

But aren't all of the PCs known serial killers? :smallbiggrin: (I suspect Redcloak would see them that way)

I'm pretty sure every notable character in OOTS would get thrown in jail in RL for mass murder.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm pretty sure every notable character in OOTS would get thrown in jail in RL for mass murder. Which makes the term irrelevant for a discussion based on a story based on D&D.

[understatement]

Which makes the term irrelevant for a discussion based on a story based on D&D.

I'm aware; I was just kind of amused by the possibility that the most Good and most Evil characters in the story would end up sharing a cell.

In any case, I think Belkar was the only member of the Order to be jailed for a legitimate crime.

[KorvinStarmast]

In any case, I think Belkar was the only member of the Order to be jailed for a legitimate crime. Indeed he was, and he was also jailed in OtOotPCs


I like the idea of a (still) evil Belkar and an obviously good Minrah being friends, but for them to have any kind of heart based relationship would need quite a bit of finding more in common with one another. I don't think there's the time, and I'm not sure Minrah's out looking for love. One could make a joke about being in that rift and an old song from Urban Cowboy "looking for love in all the wrong places" but I just don't see her current arc as romantically directed.

[Yirggzmb]

Indeed he was, and he was also jailed in OtOotPCs


I like the idea of a (still) evil Belkar and an obviously good Minrah being friends, but for them to have any kind of heart based relationship would need quite a bit of finding more in common with one another. I don't think there's the time, and I'm not sure Minrah's out looking for love. One could make a joke about being in that rift and an old song from Urban Cowboy "looking for love in all the wrong places" but I just don't see her current arc as romantically directed.

Also, while V is perhaps not the most reliable of people at the time, Belker was once described as having two buckets "hate and lust". It would be fitting, in my opinion, for him to form a genuine friendship instead, with the first person to know him after he started changing.

Also some personal bias towards the idea that not *every* main character in a work needs a love interest anyway and that forcing the matter is one of the plagues on far too many stories.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, while V is perhaps not the most reliable of people at the time, Belker was once described as having two buckets "hate and lust". It would be fitting, in my opinion, for him to form a genuine friendship instead, with the first person to know him after he started changing.

Also some personal bias towards the idea that not *every* main character in a work needs a love interest anyway and that forcing the matter is one of the plagues on far too many stories. All I could do when I read this post was nod my head in agreement. :smallsmile: Good point on Belkar breaking out of the hate/lust paradigm which was V's hypothesis {IMO done for comedic effect}; in any case, Mr Scruffy's influence has likely voided it.

[Metastachydium]

In any case, I think Belkar was the only member of the Order to be jailed for a legitimate crime.

Well, illegal crossing and battery/assault (for which Roy served time in Bleedingham) sound like legitimate crimes to me-

[Riftwolf]

All I could do when I read this post was nod my head in agreement. :smallsmile: Good point on Belkar breaking out of the hate/lust paradigm which was V's hypothesis {IMO done for comedic effect}; in any case, Mr Scruffy's influence has likely voided it.

I never liked Vs hypothesis on that either. It struck me as intellectual bullying from an arrogant prick who'd rather condescend and belittle than deal with someone as a person. (Not that it struck a nerve with me, or anything)

[Metastachydium]

I never liked Vs hypothesis on that either.

You're not the only one. Especially since we know for certain that V was wrong: Belkar very clearly did not hate Shojo, for instance, and I can't quite imagine him lusting for the guy, either.

[Ron Miel]

I have my own hypothesis about Belkar's brain. Discussion starts here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?142973-Vs-Theory-on-Belkar-s-Brain-and-Mr-Scruffy&p=7942774&viewfull=1#post7942774).

[Riftwolf]

I have my own hypothesis about Belkar's brain. Discussion starts here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?142973-Vs-Theory-on-Belkar-s-Brain-and-Mr-Scruffy&p=7942774&viewfull=1#post7942774).

You extrapolation on the hypothesis actually makes things worse? Like treating characters as deterministic is what puts me off Bioware games (that and their transfers to Xbox are damn near unplayable)

[mjasghar]

My personal take on this is that she is there to be a way for Belkar to show his less evil ways without the cynicism of the rest of the party.
It’s strange but I don’t recall much interaction between Belkar and elan who would be the most supportive of such a turnaround after Durkon.
She also acts as a necessary side character for Durkon’s solo stuff like the Astral journey and the negotiation. She has that slightly looser style that allows her to come up with clever ideas.

[KorvinStarmast]

an arrogant prick who'd rather condescend and belittle than deal with someone as a person. Yeah, that's pretty much V through the first few books; remember when Elan wanted to MC into Wizard? FWIW, I've met quite a lot of very intelligent people IRL who are that arrogant and that condescending. It's not like Rich didn't have a lot of RL models to work from; I will take a wild guess and opine that he's had similar experiences. All he had to do was make a slight caricature of a common personality type and voila: V.

@Ron: wow, that thread's ten years old. :smalleek:

[DaLucaray]

I would say her purpose is more than to be there for any one character, but to as a whole show a new perspective on the order, how they've grown, and how the story has grown with them. It looks like there won't be any new allies in the final arc, just the order and the two paladins. Minrah is there to prove a new non-antagonist for the Order to have new interactions with, like Wrecan, or Ian, or (for a time) Malack and Tarkin, or Hinjo, or (for a time) Miko. It would be a little bit more dull if Oona and the two invisibles were the only people in the final arc that we haven't known for 10+ years.

[AceOfFools]

If you really want to know what role Minrah has in the story it gets a paragraph or two in one of the commentaries for book six.

Shameless plug: https://www.ookoodook.com/products/gipots06

[Sky_Schemer]

Minrah: When you make a change, everyone who meets you from that point on? Only knows the new version of you. And that's nice.

I think this is the beginning of something important.

Agreed, though I think this page (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html) is more significantly so.

Minrah is an outside observer. She's here to stomp bad guys, sure, but she's also seeing all of this for the first time, and that means she has unique insights into what is going on that the others don't. Including Redcloak.

I suspect she's important because she complements Durkon. At some point, Durkon has to convince Redcloak to turn on Xykon, and accept what the goblins in this world have, right now. That would be a difficult task on his own, but now there is Minrah, too. And her contribution so far has been to force Redcloak to see that he's taken his eye off the ball. It's almost a good cop/bad cop (polite cleric/blunt cleric?) relationship.

And she's not just here to help. She's here so that she and Durkon can do this together.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah, that's pretty much V through the first few books; remember when Elan wanted to MC into Wizard? FWIW, I've met quite a lot of very intelligent people IRL who are that arrogant and that condescending. It's not like Rich didn't have a lot of RL models to work from; I will take a wild guess and opine that he's had similar experiences. All he had to do was make a slight caricature of a common personality type and voila: V.

@Ron: wow, that thread's ten years old. :smalleek:

People who have put a lot of time and effort into something typically resent others taking shortcuts to achieve the same thing. And that's in all fields, not just the more intelligence-driven fields like academia. Just think of how universal "back in my days" is.

Part of that is driven from a sense of justice (equal results should stem from equal investment), another part from egoism (this new person challenges my status), another part from pride/sunk-cost (this new easier solution suggests I was stupid to put all the investment I did).

It's human nature.

[urbanwolf]

If a sudden whirlwind romance dose break out.
It could be another point for the "B" lives by changing his name argument.

[Riftwolf]

If a sudden whirlwind romance dose break out.
It could be another point for the "B" lives by changing his name argument.

Is that honestly an argument? Because that's water-milk-teabag levels of weak.

[dancrilis]

Is that honestly an argument? Because that's water-milk-teabag levels of weak.

Oracle: He ceased to be Belkar Bitterleaf and became Darth Vader when that happened the evil halfling who was colleague was destroyed, so what I told you was true - from a certain point of view.

[Precure]

:belkar: "From this day forward, I'm no longer Belkar Bitterleaf. From now on, please call me Bullcrap Bitchleaf!"

[Ron Miel]

I've always predicted "Rakleb".

[Saint-Just]

Count Stabbula? Unbelkar? Goodkar? Reedemy Goodshoes? Posi-Halfling? Belkzarro? The Halfling Previously Known as Belkar? Brad?

[Riftwolf]

Oracle: He ceased to be Belkar Bitterleaf and became Darth Vader when that happened the evil halfling who was colleague was destroyed, so what I told you was true - from a certain point of view.

Luke:... OK Obi you know that's total bantha-crap but I'm gonna let it slide. What I'm really pissed about is that you didn't tell me the Princess was my freakin' sister, and the new films left out my Holo-Jedi girlfriend!

[KorvinStarmast]

Count Stabbula? Unbelkar? Goodkar? Reedemy Goodshoes? Posi-Halfling? Belkzarro? The Halfling Previously Known as Belkar? Brad? The Belkster or The Sexy Shoeless God of War fit better.