Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels? Is it still effective at higher level?

[Ir0ns0ul]

TLDR: Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels (1-4)? Is it still effective at higher levels (5+)?

I'm running a pacifist Wizard who refuses to cause direct damage to any living creature. He is currently at level 3 and needless to say that my bread & butter is the Sleep spell. It's not uncommon for me to ready my action whenever I go first in initiave to finish some mooks or even a BBEG who was severely damaged by my allies. I'm even trying to avoid use the Spell that much in order to not ruin my DM encounters.

Assumptions for the exercise below:

I don't want to factor accuracy, therefore I'll compare Magic Missile x Sleep
Only single targets (I think AoE would complicate the reasoning)
I know some creatures are imune to sleep, but...


If we follow the baseline damage of a Magic Missile:

Level 1-2: 1st lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 3 = 9
Level 4: 2nd lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 4 = 12
Level 5-6: 3rd lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 5 = 15


And apply the same concept using the baseline "damage" of Sleep spell:

Level 1-2: 1st lvl slot Sleep (5d8) = 20
Level 3-4: 2nd lvl slot Sleep (7d8) = 28
Level 5-6: 3rd lvl slot Sleep (9d8) = 36


It seems Sleep is really good and much more effective than Magic Missile. Am I missing something here? Perhaps is it just Magic Missile that sucks? Should I compare Sleep "damage" with the common baseline of EB+AB+Hex? Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels (1-4)? Is it still effective at higher levels (5+)?

[sithlordnergal]

Its gonna depend on your DM...but I find Sleep to be ok at Tier 1, then it becomes more or less useless at Tier 2 and onward. Even in Tier 1, you can feel its power drop off when you start facing more than just Kobolds and Goblins. Enemy HP inflates really, really fast. Consider this, your average bandit is a CR 1/8 and has 11 HP, meanwhile a CR 1/4 skeleton has 13 HP, so you can only knock out one. Not only that, but sleep basically does nothing if you cast it on something that has more HP.

[Amnestic]

It's not overpowered at lower levels. It's good, but...that's fine, it should be good, otherwise it wouldn't get used at all.

It's got its niche, it fills it well. I do think that upcast it should scale better than it does but that's about it.

[Eldariel]

It's "overpowered" on low levels. Automatic damage, AOE, reasonably long range, no save/defensive checks, a completely incapacitating condition, immunity is rare and it beats resistances due to no checks. So as long as you're fighting numerous enemies with like 1-20 HP it's just about the best thing you can have and it's something I prepare on every low level caster of mine that can cast it. Be it Goblins or Kobolds or Wolves or Bandits or Guards or Acolytes or Apprentices or Commoners or Hobgoblins or Grimlocks or Orcs or whatever, the spell is going to be really strong and reliable. It's certainly the best level 1 spell for many purposes on level 1 and when I build a solo character, I make sure they have Sleep so they can take down enemies with near certainty (the amount of dice means that the average tendency is quite strong; it has by far the lowest "fail" rate of any offensive ability of the level aside from Magic Missile which generally does way less).

In short, it's one of the best picks on low levels, or perhaps the best. Whether that's overpowered depends on your frame of reference but it is certainly within the top 1% of options on the first two levels.


It remains extremely strong for the first three-four levels depending on what you face. It's much better against hordes of small things than few big things. It is, however, still pretty good against big things if you can estimate their HP total. This is the tricky part. I've used it against a group of Bulezaus on level 3. I've whiffed once; I had no clue of their HP total. I got a pretty good idea as soon as we dropped one though and I was able to land the next two. The same against a Babau. It's still the largest amount of single target damage you can get out of a first level slot if you have the opportunity to position it properly, and you can guess enemy HP total.

Which leads us to the final point: it doesn't remain a particularly strong pick because enemy HP scales disproportionately to PCs'. This means that unless you mostly face hordes of mooks (in which case simple Thunderwave or Burning Hands is going to be better) it's going to become increasingly hard to use as you level; enemy HP scales ridiculously fast meaning you'll have increasingly difficult time guessing when you can cast it. Add to that the fact that it can't be used as anything but the finisher and it simply isn't that amazing of an option.

This doesn't mean it's useless. Especially when sneaking around and not wanting to kill people, it's one of the few ways to reliably disable people like guards and such. It's also good for when you need to take someone alive: not knocking them down means you can chain them and gag them while they sleep and carry them out. It remains a role player but it's not something you'll routinely prepare on Tier 2+ since it quickly becomes so unreliable and by then you've got better, less situational tools for dealing with hordes of mooks (Fireball works for instance).

In short, it falls off around the time Tier 2 comes around in a normal campaign. You not knowing enemy HP and it only being good for finishing off high HP enemies makes it increasingly unreliable and not worth preparing without a specific purpose for it.

[LudicSavant]

TLDR: Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels (1-4)? Is it still effective at higher levels (5+)?

I'm running a pacifist Wizard who refuses to cause direct damage to any living creature. He is currently at level 3 and needless to say that my bread & butter is the Sleep spell. It's not uncommon for me to ready my action whenever I go first in initiave to finish some mooks or even a BBEG who was severely damaged by my allies. I'm even trying to avoid use the Spell that much in order to not ruin my DM encounters.

Assumptions for the exercise below:

I don't want to factor accuracy, therefore I'll compare Magic Missile x Sleep
Only single targets (I think AoE would complicate the reasoning)
I know some creatures are imune to sleep, but...


If we follow the baseline damage of a Magic Missile:

Level 1-2: 1st lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 3 = 9
Level 4: 2nd lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 4 = 12
Level 5-6: 3rd lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 5 = 15


And apply the same concept using the baseline "damage" of Sleep spell:

Level 1-2: 1st lvl slot Sleep (5d8) = 20
Level 3-4: 2nd lvl slot Sleep (7d8) = 28
Level 5-6: 3rd lvl slot Sleep (9d8) = 36


It seems Sleep is really good and much more effective than Magic Missile. Am I missing something here? Perhaps is it just Magic Missile that sucks? Should I compare Sleep "damage" with the common baseline of EB+AB+Hex? Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels (1-4)? Is it still effective at higher levels (5+)?

There are a few advantages of Magic Missile relative to Sleep that make it remain relevant at low levels:

- Sleep is an easier condition to break (an action from an ally, or any source of damage, will break it).
- Sleep is 'all or nothing.' For example, while the average of 5d8 might be 22.5 hp, if you actually try to use it on a creature with 22 hit points, there's a 50% chance that nothing happens. Whereas Magic Missile is guaranteed to do some heavily bell-curved damage.

[Hellpyre]

There are a few advantages of Magic Missile relative to Sleep that make it remain relevant at low levels:

- Sleep is an easier condition to break (an action from an ally, or any source of damage, will break it).
- Sleep is 'all or nothing.' For example, while the average of 5d8 might be 22.5 hp, if you actually try to use it on a creature with 22 hit points, there's a 50% chance that nothing happens. Whereas Magic Missile is guaranteed to do some heavily bell-curved damage.

It may also be worth noting that sleep has a major problem being used in a general melee. PCs, even at low levels, tend to have fewer hit points than level-appropriate monsters, so even as an opener, you can be forced into avoiding the cast if there's a chance that an ally in the area would have less hit points than your preferred target. Magic missle just hits where you want it, with no risk of friendly fire.

[KorvinStarmast]

TLDR: Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels (1-4)? Sleep sucks. As many HP as many low level creatures have, Sleep mostly sucks as hard as a Hoover vacuum on a naugahyde sofa. Sleep in OD&D was strong. Sleep in AD&D 1e was OK. Sleep in 5e is a very niche spell that is barely worth the slot. It's only value is: no save.

[Yakmala]

In the mid to high levels, it's mostly ineffective. But during those early levels, it's fantastic.

I once built a character around Sleep for a low level series of adventure modules that started with the party at level 1 and did not go beyond party level 4.

The character was a Variant Human War Wizard with the +1's in Int and Dex (16 each) and Alert as the starting feat. At level 2, when Tactical Wit kicked in, he had a +11 to Initiative and couldn't be surprised. This made the typical low-level goblin/kobold/bandit encounters a breeze. Nine times out of ten, I'm going first when combat starts, which means any clustered group of enemies is taking a nap before they get to act.

[RogueJK]

Good but not overpowered at Levels 1-4ish, but fairly useless at higher levels.

[RedMage125]

People saying it's not good at low levels did not fight hordes of kobolds or goblins at low levels.

Against multiple low-level opponents, it's an AMAZING spell. Against individual foes with higher hp totals that you may face (beasts and such), it is less useful.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There are a few advantages of Magic Missile relative to Sleep that make it remain relevant at low levels:

- Sleep is an easier condition to break (an action from an ally, or any source of damage, will break it).
- Sleep is 'all or nothing.' For example, while the average of 5d8 might be 22.5 hp, if you actually try to use it on a creature with 22 hit points, there's a 50% chance that nothing happens. Whereas Magic Missile is guaranteed to do some heavily bell-curved damage.

Upvote this. Also one Magic Missile will cancel sleep and a number of other conditions on 3 creatures. I've got one experienced player who keeps this spell around to whack allies as often as enemies.

[ThorOdinson]

Sleep is a good tool for when your overall goal is to do something like Modify Memory on the opponent.

Also worth mentioning is that Sleep comboes with Magic Jar which is one of the most powerful spells in the game.

Sleep plus Detect Thoughts is unstoppable investigation power.

Sleep plus Charm Person plus Suggestion on a Divination Wizard chassis is unstoppable.

[Zhorn]

Our DM has started to use possessions and mind controls, so rather than getting our allies to 0 hp to break the effects we've turned to using sleep so we can eliminate the threat without having to deal with death saves or healing our ally back up..

Sleep looses its usefulness if all combats are bog standard to-the-death and your opponents are scaling up with your level, but its utility as a non-lethal combat ender is still solid.

[Asisreo1]

Its just less than okay at later levels. As many have said, creatures tend to have more health than would reasonably be covered by sleep round 1 and it also has massive swing with their die.

That said, its a decent fight ender. If you're fighting something, you can end the fight of an average of 80hp early from only a 1st-level spell. (Assuming optimal conditions: the average targets hit (4), the average die roll (20), all creatures get affected).

Even if they aren't "dead," they're still completely unconscious for a whole minute which is plenty of time to do wacky stuff to them. Best part is its non-concentration so you can do things from buff yourself, debuff them, charm them, or just push them off a cliff or into a trap.

[Zhorn]

you can end the fight of an average of 80hp early from only a 1st-level spell. (Assuming optimal conditions: the average targets hit (4), the average die roll (20), all creatures get affected).
I agree it's retains use, but you'll want to doublecheck how sleep works RAW vs how it sounds like your using it.

1st level sleep is 5d8, averaging 22.5 hp, and that's total, not per target. Each target put to sleep deducts their current hp from the remaining value sleep has to inflict.

[Snails]

Probably a pretty optimal situation in the party my PC is in right now:
* Multiple spellcasters who can employ good damaging AoEs
* DM gives us good hints about monster HP

The Bard following up with Sleep to deal with 2-3 very weakened enemies is pretty reliable and very efficient. And since the Bard does not have much in the way of offensive options for 2nd level spells, he is not going to hesitate to upcast Sleep to 7d8 (~31 HP) when it seems appropriate.

We are getting good use of this spell in T2, and I expect it will prove valuable well into T3, even if it will be more situational at the higher levels.

I can see that Sleep will probably not scale up levels when cast by a Wizard in a typical party. But cast by a Bard on the teetering survivors of a pair of Fireballs (Wizard + Light Cleric), that is not going to get old. The Action Economy of knocking multiple weak enemies out of the fight so the meleeists can close and box in the most dangerous enemy is very attractive.

[Asisreo1]

I agree it's retains use, but you'll want to doublecheck how sleep works RAW vs how it sounds like your using it.

1st level sleep is 5d8, averaging 22.5 hp, and that's total, not per target. Each target put to sleep deducts their current hp from the remaining value sleep has to inflict.
True. Sorry, don't have the PHB on me right now and kinda assumed it worked like other AoE's.

I've come to the realization that sleep is the first level equivalent of power word kill.

I don't know why I wanted to mention that, I just did.

[Gtdead]

TLDR: Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels (1-4)? Is it still effective at higher levels (5+)?

I'm running a pacifist Wizard who refuses to cause direct damage to any living creature. He is currently at level 3 and needless to say that my bread & butter is the Sleep spell. It's not uncommon for me to ready my action whenever I go first in initiave to finish some mooks or even a BBEG who was severely damaged by my allies. I'm even trying to avoid use the Spell that much in order to not ruin my DM encounters.

Assumptions for the exercise below:

I don't want to factor accuracy, therefore I'll compare Magic Missile x Sleep
Only single targets (I think AoE would complicate the reasoning)
I know some creatures are imune to sleep, but...


If we follow the baseline damage of a Magic Missile:

Level 1-2: 1st lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 3 = 9
Level 4: 2nd lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 4 = 12
Level 5-6: 3rd lvl slot MM (1d4+1) x 5 = 15


And apply the same concept using the baseline "damage" of Sleep spell:

Level 1-2: 1st lvl slot Sleep (5d8) = 20
Level 3-4: 2nd lvl slot Sleep (7d8) = 28
Level 5-6: 3rd lvl slot Sleep (9d8) = 36


It seems Sleep is really good and much more effective than Magic Missile. Am I missing something here? Perhaps is it just Magic Missile that sucks? Should I compare Sleep "damage" with the common baseline of EB+AB+Hex? Is Sleep spell overpowered at lower levels (1-4)? Is it still effective at higher levels (5+)?

The main problem with comparing it to damage spells, is that sleep is an "all or nothing" ability. Which means you have to consider the health thresholds. You won't get far by comparing it to cantrips cause they are free while sleep is a resource, and upcasted is a very scarce resource.
You need to compare it to other spells of that level and consider what you are going to use it against.

As a lvl 3 spell, sleep will barely work against the higher health CR 1 creatures (things like bugbears, beasts etc).
Is a single CR1 creature important enough to use a 3rd level spellslot against as a lvl 5 character? I think the answer is crystal clear on that one. Fireball can potentially kill every CR1 monster in the radius and even if it doesn't, they are left with low health so another can make short work of them. Sleep can potentially control 1 of them.

And yes, sleep it's better than magic missile in a sense, but MM damage is low by design. If you ever encounter a 30 AC monster, MM is the best offensive spell in the game. If not it's a niche spell that can only be used efficiently by few builds with the tools to boost it.

[Eldariel]

Sleep sucks. As many HP as many low level creatures have, Sleep mostly sucks as hard as a Hoover vacuum on a naugahyde sofa. Sleep in OD&D was strong. Sleep in AD&D 1e was OK. Sleep in 5e is a very niche spell that is barely worth the slot. It's only value is: no save.

That "No save" is huge though: it makes your spell 100% (okay, 99,9%; there's that slightly under 0,1% chance of rolling extremely low and not even getting one Goblin but it's still way less likely than rolling a natural 1 on any given attack to the tune of 0,01%) to do something instead of ~50%-75%. Which, considering how few spells you have on low levels and how important the action is, is extremely big. Take the first encounter in LMoP for example: the stealthy Goblins can outright kill most parties with a reasonable chance but simple Sleep will take them down pretty effortlessly since it doesn't require sight and you're basically never going to roll low enough to not get them. It makes a "Party dies 50% of the time" into "Party spends a 1st level spell or two" - they aren't even in position to wake each other up reasonably (and if they try to, they just bunch up for another Sleep).

I've run the encounter for both, parties with no Sleep and parties with multiple Sleep casters and the difference is just astounding. Same goes for the next dungeon and the first Phandy stuff as well and even the Castle. And same goes for HotDQ as it happens. So at least far as the official adventures go, Sleep is one of the best tools bar none in the game on low levels (Thunderwave is occasionally better but it's much more challenging to position).

[Sigreid]

Good but not overpowered at Levels 1-4ish, but fairly useless at higher levels.

This depends on the campaign/DM. For example, if the dragon you are fighting is supported by some kobolds, it can be a really cheap way to take them out of the fight for a bit.

[Mr Adventurer]

I have it on my Arcane Trickster and have used it to put out a handful of humanoids we've already whittled down in Tier 1. I took it originally because of how few choices ATs have, but also because it seemed like it might be useful for breaking and entering if there are guard dogs.

[Waazraath]

In my experience: decent to good, but in no way the 'encounter ender' that it is sometimes sold to be. Best I've seen it do is take out a few mooks, after which other mooks needed to spend actions to wake 'em up, or take down an already weakend bigger critter. But ymmv, if you often have encounters where you can surprise groups of weaker creatures (or win initiative) that are nicely clusters, it is much better.

[Zhorn]

It's also worth noting that while higher CR creatures will have more hp to be initially outside of Sleep vulnerability, that will not be true for the whole fight.

Take the CR1+ examples mentioned above. Spend the opening round softening them up a bit (AoE with Fireball or Shatter opener as a standard), and next round you are a lot more likely to catch a few with a 1st level Sleep follow up.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's also worth noting that while higher CR creatures will have more hp to be initially outside of Sleep vulnerability, that will not be true for the whole fight.

Take the CR1+ examples mentioned above. Spend the opening round softening them up a bit (AoE with Fireball or Shatter opener as a standard), and next round you are a lot more likely to catch a few with a 1st level Sleep follow up.

You know, gauging hit points might be the only good reason to train Medicine skill! ;)

(Need DM buy in obviously)

[KorvinStarmast]

People saying it's not good at low levels did not fight hordes of kobolds or goblins at low levels.
yes we did, in our first campaign. A few goblins go to sleep and then the one's in the back wake them up on the next round. I can see kobolds being more vulnerable since their raw HP is lower.

The one time I saw sleep be even close to what it used to be was at level 1 versus a bunch of stirges.

[Amnestic]

Sleep can also hit your allies. Of course, you know their current HP total, but it can be a contributing factor to where/how you can deploy it. If your group's in a desparate fight and someone's gone down already but been picked up by a healing word, sleep could very well knock them out and take valuable 'sleep HP' away from affecting the enemy.

[Pex]

I never liked the Sleep spell, any edition I played. I always found it inefficient. It's great at first but loses effectiveness as the levels progress. In 2E and 3E it does become useless. In 5E it can be used as a finishing move. Whether you want to keep the bad guy alive for questioning or not, after the party pummels him for awhile you can use the spell as a no save to incapacitate. Of course it can also incapacitate multiple opponents. It's a tactic. Don't know how effective it would be in actual play. I like 5E's version best only because it can at least have a use as the levels progress, but I'm still not a fan.

[Lord Vukodlak]

yes we did, in our first campaign. A few goblins go to sleep and then the one's in the back wake them up on the next round. I can see kobolds being more vulnerable since their raw HP is lower.

The one time I saw sleep be even close to what it used to be was at level 1 versus a bunch of stirges.

It takes an action to wake someone up how did one goblin wake up all the others? Or did he wake one goblin who woke another goblin who woke another goblin?
In the latter case sleep still stopped the goblins from attacking the party for a turn which is still a victory.

[Gtdead]

I personally have used sleep to end 4 encounters. Rolled high enough to put everyone to sleep. But it was always against cr1/8 monsters. I think past lvl 2 this spell doesn't really have any reason to be in the spell list anymore.

[Eldariel]

Sleep can also hit your allies. Of course, you know their current HP total, but it can be a contributing factor to where/how you can deploy it. If your group's in a desparate fight and someone's gone down already but been picked up by a healing word, sleep could very well knock them out and take valuable 'sleep HP' away from affecting the enemy.

That's often solvable with placing the AOE so that it doesn't hit any low HP allies though.

[Amnestic]

That's often solvable with placing the AOE so that it doesn't hit any low HP allies though.

Sure, it's possible, but you do that and maybe you only end up including one enemy in the AoE instead of the two you wanted, depending on how they're interspersed among your group. It's not always a factor, there are ways around it, but it is something that can diminish the spell's effective cover which other spells don't have to consider.

[KorvinStarmast]

It takes an action to wake someone up how did one goblin wake up all the others? Or did he wake one goblin who woke another goblin who woke another goblin?
In the latter case sleep still stopped the goblins from attacking the party for a turn which is still a victory. You are free to argue with our DM if you can time travel back to 2014.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You are free to argue with our DM if you can time travel back to 2014.
So basically your post was "My DM nerfed sleep so it wasn't as effective as raw said it should be." Just so we're all clear. The DM broke the rules so the Goblin could wake up multiple allies at once.