DhanaRagnarok
2020-10-17, 03:09 PM
Hello everyone!
I'm still pretty new to D&D 3.5 compared to most (only 2 years and counting), but even I know that there is so many different types of bonus that it kind of defeat their purpose. More than that though, I find that my players have a hard time remembering what stacks with what, what can't be stacked, and what goes stackity-cheesity into the night. The official SRD list of bonus types is pretty imposing, with 18 types + untyped:
Ability Modifier
Alchemical Bonus
Armor Bonus
Circumstance Modifier
Competence Modifier
Deflection Bonus
Dodge Bonus
Enhancement Bonus
Insight Bonus
Luck Modifier
Morale Modifier
Natural Armor Bonus
Profane Modifier
Racial Bonus
Resistance Bonus
Sacred Modifier
Shield Bonus
Size Modifier
+ Untyped Bonuses
And that's not counting the non-SRD types like divine, exalted, epic...
I've been working on making the list more manageable for beginners. The aim isn't to reduce cheese here, even if some of the changes below should help a bit.
Here are my suggested changes, in order or the easiest to implement to the more complex:
1) Make Size Modifier an untyped bonus
Why exactly to we need a specific type for size bonuses, anyway? :smallconfused: The idea of most bonus type is to prevent you from stacking bonuses of the same type but...How are you going to stack size bonuses? You can't be 2 sizes at the same time, can you? Because I can't remember seeing the spell Schrödinger's Enlarge1 anywhere. Even something like Powerful Build mentions that you keep the best modifier between your actual size and the next larger.
2) Make Resistance Bonus an untyped bonus too
I have only found magical sources for Resistance Bonuses: the spells Resistance, Greater Resistance, Protection against [Alignment] or Circle against [Alignment] all offer Resistance Bonuses, and are used in the creation of magical items like the Cape of Resistance, but no mundane item, race, feat or class I could find gives Resistance Bonuses to saves: Items are mostly Alchemical Bonuses, Races are obviously Racial bonuses, and some feats and classes grant untyped bonuses.
Instead of using a type specifically for a handful of spells, instead add the following to the spells granting Resistance Bonuses, and change them to untyped:
The bonus to saves granted by this spell/item does not stack with any other spell or magical item granting bonuses to all saves. They still stack with any bonus or penalty applying only on Fortitude, Reflexes or Will.
3) Make Racial Bonus also an untyped bonus.
Same thought process as Size: how can you be 2 races at once anyway? Well, there is one situation that fits, and that's a creature with a template: the "vampire" template, for example, grants a Racial Bonus of +8 in several skills like Bluff among others.
If you turn Racial Bonuses into untyped bonuses, you invite anyone willing to spend 2 hours doing the calculations and 2 days writing the backstory to create an absurdly complex character with dozens of templates sending the RNG packing. If you still want to be able to stack templates on top of each others (and there are plenty of reasonable templates that could be stacked without making your DM froth at the mouth, to be fair), you could simply state the following:
Untyped modifiers granted by races and templates do not stack with each other. Only the highest modifier applies. Other untyped modifiers stack, even with untyped modifiers granted by races and templates, unless otherwise specified.
4) Fold Insight and Luck under Circumstance Modifiers.
I can't think of a single spell, item, feat (...or anything really) granting Circumstance Modifiers. Alternatively, I can't think of any non-magical (not spells, items, SLAs, artifacts, magical diseases...) source of Insight bonuses. I think there is a few feats in Complete Scoundrel granting Luck bonuses, but otherwise it is mostly magical in nature too.
Insight and Luck are already quite similar in concept (asking for foresight from gods/magic/nature to get a bonus VS asking for a bonus from gods/nature/magic) and it seems that most of the time you'll get them from Divination spells.
I suggest rewriting the Circumstance Modifier definition as such:
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source. Circumstances bonuses granted by spells, magic items or any other magic effect or ability (including supernatural abilities) are considered as arising from the same source.
I tried my best to keep the definition as clear as possible. This makes stacking Insight and Luck bonuses impossible. Of course, any feat granting Luck bonuses that isn't noted as supernatural should be for this to work as intended, so the Luck Bonus should be replaced by a Circumstance Bonus with this mention tackled under it:
The effects of this feat come from luck granted by a higher power. As such, it is a supernatural ability.
5) Fuse Profane and Sacred into Alignment Modifiers.
Keeping what is essentially "Evil modifiers" and "Good modifiers" separate leads to the rather strange possibility that a character could receive bonus from both, which could work for a Neutral character but seems pretty niche. Especially given that if forces of Good and Evil really want to grant boons to the same character (A LN character facing a Chaotic aberration getting help from both LG and LE entities being the only example that comes to mind) there is nothing stopping them from going for any other bonus type or untyped bonuses.
Still, fusing the two and making them not stack would make anyone with a powerful bonus from a Good source be immune to penalties from an Evil source and vice-versa. To keep this from happening, this new modifier type must work a bit differently from most:
An alignment bonus (or penalty) stems from the powers of good and evil. Multiple alignment bonuses on the same character or object do not stack, regardless of the source of the bonus. Only the highest alignment bonus applies. If alignment bonuses and alignment penalties from opposite side on the morality spectrum apply to the same character or object, the worst alignment penalty stacks with the best alignment bonus.
I find that approach leads to a good balance: Playing both side of the Good vs Evil conflict won't grant you a massive boon compared to dedicating yourself to one ideology, but picking a side won't completely protect you from the other either, merely "cushion the blow" of a curse sent your way.
6) Fuse Armor, Natural Armor and Shield into Physical Defense Modifiers.
That one is going to be a hard sale. We want to let these bonuses stack, but not if we end up with ridiculous-looking but unstoppable tanks wearing seven layers of full-plate. So in addition to that new type definition, we need a few rules.
A physical defense bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor, natural armor and shields. Physical defense bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class. A physical defense bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
I was certain the following rule already existed, but I can't find it online in the SRD and I don't have access to my books rn, so:
If an armor is worn over another armor, only penalties (armor check penalty, arcane spell failure) stack. Only apply the highest physical defense bonus.
Now that we have prevented the full-plate Napoleon cake, we also need to handle shields:
A shield only counts as such when held, otherwise it is classified as armor (Light armor for light and heavy shields, Heavy armor for tower shields).
You can dual-wield light and heavy shields, but not tower shields.
The first rule prevent people from using more shields than they have arms to hold them (+1 if they don't have armor, which seems reasonable, especially given that they make pretty terrible alternatives to actual armor). The second rule prevents from getting a +18 bonus by dual-wielding +5 enhanced tower shields, but won't stop you from getting a similarly powerful +14 dual-wielding heavy shields. Thus, we need to do something about Enhancement Modifiers to shields and armors too:
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor, shields and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Enhancement bonuses on multiple armors worn by the same creature do not stack, the same goes with multiple shields. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor, natural armor or shield effectively increase the armor, natural armor or shield's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
Here. At most, you will get +2 AC by dual-wielding shields compared to what you would get with a similar build using the RAW. You still lose the Physical Defense Bonus to AC of a shield after a shield bash action, so that +2 AC only applies if you are not hitting anything. I'd say it's still powerful at low level, but at mid to high level I think the terrible damage output balances the increased bonus.
The existing rule preventing stacking of enhancement bonus on the same creature already prevents natural armor enhancement abuse.
But quid of spells? Mage armor for example could grant a wizard ridiculously high AC if they decided to burn all of their 1st-level spells on it, each time gaining +4 AC for 1 hour/level, essentially making a high-level wizard impervious to damage for hours on end. How to solve that?
Here is my suggestion:
Spells and magical effects that granted Armor, Natural Armor or Shield Bonuses now grant Enhancement Bonuses. If there is no armor/natural armor/shield to enhance, the target's skin or clothing is considered as a +0 armor/natural armor/shield for the sake of the spell or magical effect.
I find that keeping magical bonuses as Enhancement Bonuses, which are already exclusively (or quasi-exclusively) magical in nature works well.
Because it is an Enhancement Bonus on existing armor/natural armor/shield, it doesn't apply against touch attacks.
Finally, Enhancement Bonuses still do not stack, so no force-plate Napoleon cake either.
Incidentally, it also solves the issue of stacking multiple kinds of natural armors (not enhancements, but straight-up different kinds, like thick fur and scales and a shell) I only just noticed writing this. There can't be that many non-magical ways to add a brand-new kind of natural armor to a creature (maybe some obscure alchemical items? But then you can just rewrite these as alchemical bonuses...).
My main worry with that solution is that you can't combine enchanted armor with a Mage Armor spell effectively (same with an enchanted shield and a Shield spell). That would make spellcasters squishier, as Mage Armor or Shield (and other similar spells) are targeted on self. Your pick if it is a good or bad thing. :smallwink:
In the end, here's the new list of Bonus Types, reduced to 10 types + untyped:
Ability Modifier. Granted by your abilities scores.
Alchemical Bonus. Granted by non-magical substances.
Alignment Bonus (Replaces Profane/Sacred). Granted by Good or Evil sources.
Circumstance Modifier (Includes Luck and Insight). Granted by the specific circumstances of a given roll, including foresight and (supernatural) luck.
Competence Modifier. Granted by one's skill in a given task.
Deflection Bonus. Granted to AC by spells and effects deflecting attacks.
Dodge Bonus. Granted to AC by extraordinary or supernatural agility, which can stack with themselves.
Enhancement Bonus. Granted by spells and other magical sources.
Morale Modifier. Granted by the state of mind of the character.
Physical Defense Bonus (Replaces Armor, Natural Armor and Shield). Granted to AC by the character's body and equipment, which can stack (with limitations) with themselves.
+ Untyped Bonuses (Includes Size, Racial and Resistance). Every bonus not fitting in one of the above types.
That seems streamlined enough to be clear for new players, although after checking a couple Diplomancer builds it doesn't affect them much. The cheese lives! :roach:
Quick notes on Bonus types not in the SRD:
Synergy bonuses: They are untyped in 3.5 and that's great. I'd change the bonus from a flat +2 to a +1+(number of synergies for the same skill), so that instead of getting a +6 synergy bonus to Diplomacy from Bluff, Knowledge (nobility) and Sense Motive, it turns into a more manageable +4.
Inherent bonuses: The bonuses you get from Wish/Miracle or from reading Tomes. I think they are untyped in 3.5, and they are limited to +5 on any ability. Nothing much to say on these.
Exalted, Perfection, Epic...: All these bonuses share the same fate of being confined to, AFAIK, a single book. That should leave them limited enough in scope that a solution similar to my conversion of Resistance Bonuses to untyped should be applicable.
Thank you if you've read all the way down here!
R&R is welcome as this hasn't been playtested yet and could probably use some polish - especially when it comes to obscure sources for a bonus type I might have missed.
1I suddenly find myself in desperate need of a Schrödinger's Enlarge homebrew. I'll add that to the pile...
I'm still pretty new to D&D 3.5 compared to most (only 2 years and counting), but even I know that there is so many different types of bonus that it kind of defeat their purpose. More than that though, I find that my players have a hard time remembering what stacks with what, what can't be stacked, and what goes stackity-cheesity into the night. The official SRD list of bonus types is pretty imposing, with 18 types + untyped:
Ability Modifier
Alchemical Bonus
Armor Bonus
Circumstance Modifier
Competence Modifier
Deflection Bonus
Dodge Bonus
Enhancement Bonus
Insight Bonus
Luck Modifier
Morale Modifier
Natural Armor Bonus
Profane Modifier
Racial Bonus
Resistance Bonus
Sacred Modifier
Shield Bonus
Size Modifier
+ Untyped Bonuses
And that's not counting the non-SRD types like divine, exalted, epic...
I've been working on making the list more manageable for beginners. The aim isn't to reduce cheese here, even if some of the changes below should help a bit.
Here are my suggested changes, in order or the easiest to implement to the more complex:
1) Make Size Modifier an untyped bonus
Why exactly to we need a specific type for size bonuses, anyway? :smallconfused: The idea of most bonus type is to prevent you from stacking bonuses of the same type but...How are you going to stack size bonuses? You can't be 2 sizes at the same time, can you? Because I can't remember seeing the spell Schrödinger's Enlarge1 anywhere. Even something like Powerful Build mentions that you keep the best modifier between your actual size and the next larger.
2) Make Resistance Bonus an untyped bonus too
I have only found magical sources for Resistance Bonuses: the spells Resistance, Greater Resistance, Protection against [Alignment] or Circle against [Alignment] all offer Resistance Bonuses, and are used in the creation of magical items like the Cape of Resistance, but no mundane item, race, feat or class I could find gives Resistance Bonuses to saves: Items are mostly Alchemical Bonuses, Races are obviously Racial bonuses, and some feats and classes grant untyped bonuses.
Instead of using a type specifically for a handful of spells, instead add the following to the spells granting Resistance Bonuses, and change them to untyped:
The bonus to saves granted by this spell/item does not stack with any other spell or magical item granting bonuses to all saves. They still stack with any bonus or penalty applying only on Fortitude, Reflexes or Will.
3) Make Racial Bonus also an untyped bonus.
Same thought process as Size: how can you be 2 races at once anyway? Well, there is one situation that fits, and that's a creature with a template: the "vampire" template, for example, grants a Racial Bonus of +8 in several skills like Bluff among others.
If you turn Racial Bonuses into untyped bonuses, you invite anyone willing to spend 2 hours doing the calculations and 2 days writing the backstory to create an absurdly complex character with dozens of templates sending the RNG packing. If you still want to be able to stack templates on top of each others (and there are plenty of reasonable templates that could be stacked without making your DM froth at the mouth, to be fair), you could simply state the following:
Untyped modifiers granted by races and templates do not stack with each other. Only the highest modifier applies. Other untyped modifiers stack, even with untyped modifiers granted by races and templates, unless otherwise specified.
4) Fold Insight and Luck under Circumstance Modifiers.
I can't think of a single spell, item, feat (...or anything really) granting Circumstance Modifiers. Alternatively, I can't think of any non-magical (not spells, items, SLAs, artifacts, magical diseases...) source of Insight bonuses. I think there is a few feats in Complete Scoundrel granting Luck bonuses, but otherwise it is mostly magical in nature too.
Insight and Luck are already quite similar in concept (asking for foresight from gods/magic/nature to get a bonus VS asking for a bonus from gods/nature/magic) and it seems that most of the time you'll get them from Divination spells.
I suggest rewriting the Circumstance Modifier definition as such:
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source. Circumstances bonuses granted by spells, magic items or any other magic effect or ability (including supernatural abilities) are considered as arising from the same source.
I tried my best to keep the definition as clear as possible. This makes stacking Insight and Luck bonuses impossible. Of course, any feat granting Luck bonuses that isn't noted as supernatural should be for this to work as intended, so the Luck Bonus should be replaced by a Circumstance Bonus with this mention tackled under it:
The effects of this feat come from luck granted by a higher power. As such, it is a supernatural ability.
5) Fuse Profane and Sacred into Alignment Modifiers.
Keeping what is essentially "Evil modifiers" and "Good modifiers" separate leads to the rather strange possibility that a character could receive bonus from both, which could work for a Neutral character but seems pretty niche. Especially given that if forces of Good and Evil really want to grant boons to the same character (A LN character facing a Chaotic aberration getting help from both LG and LE entities being the only example that comes to mind) there is nothing stopping them from going for any other bonus type or untyped bonuses.
Still, fusing the two and making them not stack would make anyone with a powerful bonus from a Good source be immune to penalties from an Evil source and vice-versa. To keep this from happening, this new modifier type must work a bit differently from most:
An alignment bonus (or penalty) stems from the powers of good and evil. Multiple alignment bonuses on the same character or object do not stack, regardless of the source of the bonus. Only the highest alignment bonus applies. If alignment bonuses and alignment penalties from opposite side on the morality spectrum apply to the same character or object, the worst alignment penalty stacks with the best alignment bonus.
I find that approach leads to a good balance: Playing both side of the Good vs Evil conflict won't grant you a massive boon compared to dedicating yourself to one ideology, but picking a side won't completely protect you from the other either, merely "cushion the blow" of a curse sent your way.
6) Fuse Armor, Natural Armor and Shield into Physical Defense Modifiers.
That one is going to be a hard sale. We want to let these bonuses stack, but not if we end up with ridiculous-looking but unstoppable tanks wearing seven layers of full-plate. So in addition to that new type definition, we need a few rules.
A physical defense bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor, natural armor and shields. Physical defense bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class. A physical defense bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
I was certain the following rule already existed, but I can't find it online in the SRD and I don't have access to my books rn, so:
If an armor is worn over another armor, only penalties (armor check penalty, arcane spell failure) stack. Only apply the highest physical defense bonus.
Now that we have prevented the full-plate Napoleon cake, we also need to handle shields:
A shield only counts as such when held, otherwise it is classified as armor (Light armor for light and heavy shields, Heavy armor for tower shields).
You can dual-wield light and heavy shields, but not tower shields.
The first rule prevent people from using more shields than they have arms to hold them (+1 if they don't have armor, which seems reasonable, especially given that they make pretty terrible alternatives to actual armor). The second rule prevents from getting a +18 bonus by dual-wielding +5 enhanced tower shields, but won't stop you from getting a similarly powerful +14 dual-wielding heavy shields. Thus, we need to do something about Enhancement Modifiers to shields and armors too:
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor, shields and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Enhancement bonuses on multiple armors worn by the same creature do not stack, the same goes with multiple shields. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor, natural armor or shield effectively increase the armor, natural armor or shield's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
Here. At most, you will get +2 AC by dual-wielding shields compared to what you would get with a similar build using the RAW. You still lose the Physical Defense Bonus to AC of a shield after a shield bash action, so that +2 AC only applies if you are not hitting anything. I'd say it's still powerful at low level, but at mid to high level I think the terrible damage output balances the increased bonus.
The existing rule preventing stacking of enhancement bonus on the same creature already prevents natural armor enhancement abuse.
But quid of spells? Mage armor for example could grant a wizard ridiculously high AC if they decided to burn all of their 1st-level spells on it, each time gaining +4 AC for 1 hour/level, essentially making a high-level wizard impervious to damage for hours on end. How to solve that?
Here is my suggestion:
Spells and magical effects that granted Armor, Natural Armor or Shield Bonuses now grant Enhancement Bonuses. If there is no armor/natural armor/shield to enhance, the target's skin or clothing is considered as a +0 armor/natural armor/shield for the sake of the spell or magical effect.
I find that keeping magical bonuses as Enhancement Bonuses, which are already exclusively (or quasi-exclusively) magical in nature works well.
Because it is an Enhancement Bonus on existing armor/natural armor/shield, it doesn't apply against touch attacks.
Finally, Enhancement Bonuses still do not stack, so no force-plate Napoleon cake either.
Incidentally, it also solves the issue of stacking multiple kinds of natural armors (not enhancements, but straight-up different kinds, like thick fur and scales and a shell) I only just noticed writing this. There can't be that many non-magical ways to add a brand-new kind of natural armor to a creature (maybe some obscure alchemical items? But then you can just rewrite these as alchemical bonuses...).
My main worry with that solution is that you can't combine enchanted armor with a Mage Armor spell effectively (same with an enchanted shield and a Shield spell). That would make spellcasters squishier, as Mage Armor or Shield (and other similar spells) are targeted on self. Your pick if it is a good or bad thing. :smallwink:
In the end, here's the new list of Bonus Types, reduced to 10 types + untyped:
Ability Modifier. Granted by your abilities scores.
Alchemical Bonus. Granted by non-magical substances.
Alignment Bonus (Replaces Profane/Sacred). Granted by Good or Evil sources.
Circumstance Modifier (Includes Luck and Insight). Granted by the specific circumstances of a given roll, including foresight and (supernatural) luck.
Competence Modifier. Granted by one's skill in a given task.
Deflection Bonus. Granted to AC by spells and effects deflecting attacks.
Dodge Bonus. Granted to AC by extraordinary or supernatural agility, which can stack with themselves.
Enhancement Bonus. Granted by spells and other magical sources.
Morale Modifier. Granted by the state of mind of the character.
Physical Defense Bonus (Replaces Armor, Natural Armor and Shield). Granted to AC by the character's body and equipment, which can stack (with limitations) with themselves.
+ Untyped Bonuses (Includes Size, Racial and Resistance). Every bonus not fitting in one of the above types.
That seems streamlined enough to be clear for new players, although after checking a couple Diplomancer builds it doesn't affect them much. The cheese lives! :roach:
Quick notes on Bonus types not in the SRD:
Synergy bonuses: They are untyped in 3.5 and that's great. I'd change the bonus from a flat +2 to a +1+(number of synergies for the same skill), so that instead of getting a +6 synergy bonus to Diplomacy from Bluff, Knowledge (nobility) and Sense Motive, it turns into a more manageable +4.
Inherent bonuses: The bonuses you get from Wish/Miracle or from reading Tomes. I think they are untyped in 3.5, and they are limited to +5 on any ability. Nothing much to say on these.
Exalted, Perfection, Epic...: All these bonuses share the same fate of being confined to, AFAIK, a single book. That should leave them limited enough in scope that a solution similar to my conversion of Resistance Bonuses to untyped should be applicable.
Thank you if you've read all the way down here!
R&R is welcome as this hasn't been playtested yet and could probably use some polish - especially when it comes to obscure sources for a bonus type I might have missed.
1I suddenly find myself in desperate need of a Schrödinger's Enlarge homebrew. I'll add that to the pile...