ways to make simulacrum qualify for supernatural spell? dweomerkeeper

[newguydude1]

dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell only works on spells with standard casting time or less.
simulacrum has a casting time of 12 hours.

so what are some ways of reducing simulacrum's casting time to standard action so i can apply supernatural spell to it?


methods the work
1. uncanny forethought. selecting simulacrum as a spell mastery spell lets me cast it as a standard action. boom. done.
2. have wish emulate simulacrum.


methods that dont work
1. archmage's sla may reduce casting time to a standard action, but supernatural spells cannot be applied to slas.



why do i need multiple methods? cause source book. some dms allow exemplars of evil. some dont. so i need other methods.

does sudden quicken feat work?


"Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Quicken Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Quicken Spell normally."

so can i sudden quicken a simulacrum to reduce casting time from 12 hours to 1 free action?

[Troacctid]

1. uncanny forethought. selecting simulacrum as a spell mastery spell lets me cast it as a standard action. boom. done.
This doesn't work, actually, because the spell has to be prepared to use it. Uncanny Forethought specifically does not prepare the spell—you leave the slot empty.


does sudden quicken feat work?

so can i sudden quicken a simulacrum to reduce casting time from 12 hours to 1 free action?
No. Spells with greater than a full-round casting time can't be quickened. It'll have no effect. Also, since the spell isn't known or prepared with the feat, it wouldn't be eligible for Supernatural Spell even if it did work.

[newguydude1]

This doesn't work, actually, because the spell has to be prepared to use it. Uncanny Forethought specifically does not prepare the spell—you leave the slot empty.

no it doesnt

that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast

[Troacctid]

The definition of "available to cast" is expounded upon in more detail in Complete Mage, which clarifies that the latter clause applies only to spontaneous casters. So, it doesn't work.

And again, even if it did work, Uncanny Forethought doesn't alter the spell's casting time, so it would be ineligible for Supernatural Spell regardless.

[redking]

The consensus on this is that supernatural spell calls out casting time as given in the spell description.

[newguydude1]

The definition of "available to cast" is expounded upon in more detail in Complete Mage, which clarifies that the latter clause applies only to spontaneous casters. So, it doesn't work.

And again, even if it did work, Uncanny Forethought doesn't alter the spell's casting time, so it would be ineligible for Supernatural Spell regardless.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620318-Supernatural-Spell-(Su)-handbook-for-Dweomerkeeper
theres a lengthy debate there. its muddied by weird arguments but if something alters the time it takes to cast a spell its modifying casting time. and not only does uncanny forethought make a wizard a spontaneous caster but the spell mantle of dweomerkeeper also makes the wizard a spontaneous caster.

it works. if you nit pick raw like a lawyer it works, if you dont it still works, it only doesnt work if you go and say stuff like:
"if it changes the time it takes to cast the spell but doesnt explicitly call out "casting time" by name then it makes a new term called "time it takes to cast" which is not casting time therefore it doesnt work, and ignore the glossary definition of casting time".



ill repeat magicalmagicmans argument here

casting time: The time required to cast a spell, usually either 1 standard action, 1 round, or 1 free action. Spells with casting times longer than 1 round require full-round actions for all the rounds encompassed in the casting time.

so if anything modifies the time required to cast a spell, its modifying casting time. period. end of story.
rapid spell modifies casting time yet it never uses the term "casting time" in its feat description. and it explicitly says you can quicken a rapid spell if you get it down to a standard action.
when in a grapple, you can only cast spells of casting time standard action or quicker. uncanny forethought lets you cast spells as a standard action. therefore you can cast spells with uncanny forethought during a grapple.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want a supernatural simulacrum, go psion with the Magic mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), then get a StP erudite minion who can teach you simulacrum via manifesting psychic chirurgery on you.

Voila.

If you want to cut the manifesting time down to almost nothing, Linked Power will do it. Just make sure it's the second power that's linked to the first. It'll go off in the round after you finish manifesting the first power.

[Darg]

If you are allowed 3.0 content then Simbul's Spell Trigger would let you cast multiple simulacrums as swift actions. Spells are transferred rather than cast into the trigger and are cast on activation. So you just need the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells.

[sreservoir]

If you want a supernatural simulacrum, go psion with the Magic mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), then get a StP erudite minion who can teach you simulacrum via manifesting psychic chirurgery on you.

Note that this doesn't eliminate the material component, for multiple reasons:


Convert Spell to Power specifically has components, even though powers normally don't
There's no basis whatsoever for Supernatural Transformation getting rid of components that the affected SLA already had as an exception to the normal rules for SLAs, since there's no general rule that Su abilities don't have components (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) in the first place. It's just Supernatural Spell that does that.


Also, you'd need an extra telepath to chirurgery chirurgery to your StP erudite minion, since erudites can't normally learn discipline powers of their highest level.

[Endarire]

Does Alacritous Cogitation (a feat from Complete Mage) work to reduce the cast time?

[newguydude1]

Does Alacritous Cogitation (a feat from Complete Mage) work to reduce the cast time?

only for spells upto 1 round casting time.

simulacrum is 12 hour so i need something to drop it down to 1 round. rapid spell drops it to 1 hour, but thats the best i got.


If you are allowed 3.0 content then Simbul's Spell Trigger would let you cast multiple simulacrums as swift actions. Spells are transferred rather than cast into the trigger and are cast on activation. So you just need the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells.

the 3.5 update in pgtf killed it. but even if it didnt at 9th i got wish.

[Crichton]

Note that this doesn't eliminate the material component, for multiple reasons:


Convert Spell to Power specifically has components, even though powers normally don't
There's no basis whatsoever for Supernatural Transformation getting rid of components that the affected SLA already had as an exception to the normal rules for SLAs, since there's no general rule that Su abilities don't have components (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) in the first place. It's just Supernatural Spell that does that.


Also, you'd need an extra telepath to chirurgery chirurgery to your StP erudite minion, since erudites can't normally learn discipline powers of their highest level.



StP Erudite can eliminate the material component for a mere 2 extra power points expended, so that's pretty much completely trivial. The bigger issue is that Supernatural Transformation doesn't eliminate the XP component, and StP Erudite explicitly offers no help there.

[Troacctid]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620318-Supernatural-Spell-(Su)-handbook-for-Dweomerkeeper
theres a lengthy debate there. its muddied by weird arguments but if something alters the time it takes to cast a spell its modifying casting time. and not only does uncanny forethought make a wizard a spontaneous caster but the spell mantle of dweomerkeeper also makes the wizard a spontaneous caster.

it works. if you nit pick raw like a lawyer it works, if you dont it still works, it only doesnt work if you go and say stuff like:
"if it changes the time it takes to cast the spell but doesnt explicitly call out "casting time" by name then it makes a new term called "time it takes to cast" which is not casting time therefore it doesnt work, and ignore the glossary definition of casting time".
No, I'm sorry, but it still doesn't work, for the reasons I said.

[magicalmagicman]

No, I'm sorry, but it still doesn't work, for the reasons I said.

You don't have to be sorry because it does work. All of your reasons stated are all incorrect.

Your trying to be incredibly nitpicky and split hairs here trying to say reducing the time it takes to cast a spell is not reducing casting time because the feat descriptions don't say the term "casting time" as if d&d is written in legalese, and also trying to change the meaning of the phrase "available to the dweomerkeeper" into a reserve feat definition. But it doesn't work like that.

Even if you are being extremely nitpicky it still works. Whatever definition of "available to cast" described in the Reserve Feat section of the Complete Mage book only applies to Reserve Feats that use the phrase "available to cast" and nowhere else. Because its a rule for Reserve Feats and not all of d&d. If it was it would've been mentioned in a glossary or outside of the section that describes a specific group of feat descriptions only. So when Supernatural Spell says "available to the dweomerkeeper" in a completely different book, it includes his own spell mantle ability, clerics spontaneous cure spell casting, and Uncanny Forethought. The reserve feat section Complete Mage has no authority over what "available to the dweomerkeeper" means in Complete Divine or PHB or DMG or anywhere else.

As for casting time Rapid Spell is proof that my interpretation is correct, as newguydude1 correctly repeated from the other thread.

[newguydude1]

lets not have this debate again. im not interested in arguing whether casting a spell with mantle of spells counts as "available to the dweomerkeeper" because reserve feats said "available to cast" or whatever in a different book.

ways to qualify simulacrum for supernatural spell is what i want to discuss.

[NigelWalmsley]

Archmage's SLA class feature doesn't work with Supernatural Spell, but it does work with Supernatural Transformation.

[newguydude1]

Archmage's SLA class feature doesn't work with Supernatural Spell, but it does work with Supernatural Transformation.

the problem is that supernatural transformation doesnt say you get to ignore xp costs. and the general rules for supernatural abilities doesnt say it doesnt use components. so as far as we can tell in pure raw, dweomerkeeper's supernatural ability is the exception to the norm that ignores components, and all other supernatural abilities could have components.

and even worse, technically the xp cost in archmage sla is not a component. so even if we got it to work with supernatural spell it arguably wont do anything.

[Thurbane]

Archmage's SLA class feature doesn't work with Supernatural Spell, but it does work with Supernatural Transformation.

There is much debate as to whether class abilities count as "innate spell-like abilities". FWIW, the official FAQ forbids this.


Can a warlock qualify for the Supernatural Transformation feat (SS 39) and change one of his invocations into a supernatural ability?
No. The warlock’s spell-like abilities are learned (from class levels), not innate (that is, part of his racial traits).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There is much debate as to whether class abilities count as "innate spell-like abilities". FWIW, the official FAQ forbids this.And yet psionics is explicitly innate, regardless of source.

ie, that is not official RAW and should be disregarded as such.

[Troacctid]

"Innate" doesn't have any special rules meaning, so it's up to DM discretion; however, any SLA that is explicitly called out as innate—such as warlock invocations or psionic powers—ought to qualify. (This is another instance where Complete Mage helps resolve definitional issues, in this case by classifying warlock invocations as both arcane and innate. I believe it was published after that FAQ entry.)

[newguydude1]

"Innate" doesn't have any special rules meaning, so it's up to DM discretion; however, any SLA that is explicitly called out as innate—such as warlock invocations or psionic powers—ought to qualify.

the faq is not denying that warlock invocations are innate. he is saying supernatural transformation only works on racially innate abilities and not classially innate abilities.

but the rules never differentiate between classially innate and racially innate.

imo the faq only matters when it talks about raw. if it doesnt you ignore it. thought bottle for example, faq says you cant use it to restore spell cost xp or item creation xp because it wasnt intended to do that. not talking about raw but intent.

cant help but think its the same here. but if we take the faq as a 1st party official ruling then i guess we do treat it as raw.


(This is another instance where Complete Mage helps resolve definitional issues, in this case by classifying warlock invocations as both arcane and innate. I believe it was published after that FAQ entry.)

a cleric is a spontaneous caster regarding his cure spells and can use versatile spellcaster and healing reserve feats just like a sorcerer can use reserve feats with the arcane preparation feat even though sorcerer is classified as a spontaneous caster.

the reserve feat rules dont address characters who acquires the ability to prepare or spontaneously cast spells via class features or feats and your trying to claim that this lack of address somehow... i dont know what your logic is.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want simulacrum without being terribly expensive, use one of the planar binding spells, call up a genie with 3 (XP-less) wishes, and use one of them to get your casting of simulacrum. No XP cost, no material components. Or get yourself a one-time use item (such as a scroll) of simulacrum using your wishes that already has the XP and subject of the spell specified and included. Then you can cast it yourself.

Mirror mephits also get simulacrum 1/day, and I think you can get one as an improved familiar. Have it take Supernatural Transformation, and bam.

[magicalmagicman]

the reserve feat rules dont address characters who acquires the ability to prepare or spontaneously cast spells via class features or feats and your trying to claim that this lack of address somehow... i dont know what your logic is.

She's saying because it didn't address it, by squinting real hard you can say by RAW it doesn't count as available to cast even though the spells are available, you have the spell slots, and you can cast it, because wizards are "prepared casters" and any ability to spontaneously cast spells they acquire don't count as "available to cast" because they are classified forever as "prepared casters" and "prepared casters" only. But if you're squinting this hard then the ye old "prc class features are not lost upon no longer qualifying for prerequisites except for PrCs in complete adventurer" logic applies and you can say by RAW anything talked about in reserve feat sections of the rules only applies to reserve feats and nowhere else.

For the record, I also disagree that not addressed means illegal. Using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a metamagic spell you don't have the spell slots for wasn't addressed in the rules, yet the FAQ explicitly said yes you can do that. Uncanny Forethought is "Available to the dweomerkeeper" and "Available to cast" no matter how you look at it.

[gogogome]

She's saying because it didn't address it, by squinting real hard you can say by RAW it doesn't count as available to cast even though the spells are available, you have the spell slots, and you can cast it, because wizards are "prepared casters" and any ability to spontaneously cast spells they acquire don't count as "available to cast" because they are classified forever as "prepared casters" and "prepared casters" only. But if you're squinting this hard then the ye old "prc class features are not lost upon no longer qualifying for prerequisites except for PrCs in complete adventurer" logic applies and you can say by RAW anything talked about in reserve feat sections of the rules only applies to reserve feats and nowhere else.

For the record, I also disagree that not addressed means illegal. Using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a metamagic spell you don't have the spell slots for wasn't addressed in the rules, yet the FAQ explicitly said yes you can do that. Uncanny Forethought is "Available to the dweomerkeeper" and "Available to cast" no matter how you look at it.

I'd like to add that you decide to apply Supernatural Spell at the moment of casting. Calling a spell that you are about to cast as not "available to the dweomerkeeper" is highly ludicrous no matter how you look at it.

[sreservoir]

Using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a metamagic spell you don't have the spell slots for wasn't addressed in the rules, yet the FAQ explicitly said yes you can do that.

The FAQ is wrong. It lets you cast a spell you know. You probably don't know the metamagic version of the spell you want to cast. Spirit shamans might have metamagic spells in their spells known (because their spells retrieved are expressly "spells she knows", "like a sorcerer", but have special treatment wrt metamagic), I guess, though.

[magicalmagicman]

The FAQ is wrong. It lets you cast a spell you know. You probably don't know the metamagic version of the spell you want to cast. Spirit shamans might have metamagic spells in their spells known (because their spells retrieved are expressly "spells she knows", "like a sorcerer", but have special treatment wrt metamagic), I guess, though.

The rules never say whether you "know" Heightened Fireball. or Maximized Fireball. Or Heightened Maximized Fireball. Or Heightened Maximized Empowered Fireball. So you can't conclude whether you "know" a metamagic spell or not.

But then the FAQ says yes you can. So that's what we conclude. Unless you have a RAW citation that says otherwise.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. the OP, Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow also has verbiage enabling transforming spells into standard action casting times. However, this only applies to 'area spells' and I don't see a way to make that work. (It is quite impressive when you bomb a battlefield with Blinding Glory or Erupt...)

[Thurbane]

Don't know if Anima Mage 10 (Vestige Casting) would work? 1/day cast any spell you have memorized as an immediate action, and also Silent and Stilled.

[newguydude1]

W.r.t. the OP, Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow also has verbiage enabling transforming spells into standard action casting times. However, this only applies to 'area spells' and I don't see a way to make that work. (It is quite impressive when you bomb a battlefield with Blinding Glory or Erupt...)

oof. close but no cigar. happens a lot to me too. way to make simulacrum an aoe spell. ill keep an eye out.


Don't know if Anima Mage 10 (Vestige Casting) would work? 1/day cast any spell you have memorized as an immediate action, and also Silent and Stilled.

it does! but. well. you get this and supernatural spell after you get wish. not entirely familiar with vestiges but 4 levels of dweomerkeeper, 10 levels of anima mage, 3 levels of wizard and 3 levels of binder thats 20.

[Thurbane]

it does! but. well. you get this and supernatural spell after you get wish. not entirely familiar with vestiges but 4 levels of dweomerkeeper, 10 levels of anima mage, 3 levels of wizard and 3 levels of binder thats 20.

You can enter Anima Mage with a single level of Binder + 1 feat; or (arguably), no levels of Binder, using feats only.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Add simulacrum to an unhallow spell? The list of spells is inclusive, not exclusive, after all.

[newguydude1]

You can enter Anima Mage with a single level of Binder + 1 feat; or (arguably), no levels of Binder, using feats only.

if your right about arguably then i guess the combo happens at level 17. same level as wish, that is if the feats only method doesnt conflict with single class dweomerkeeper entry.

ok were getting somewhere now.


Add simulacrum to an unhallow spell? The list of spells is inclusive, not exclusive, after all.

interesting. unhallow is 24 hours casting time but can be spell stitched so we can ignore that.

i dont understand how the simulacrum effect would interact with unhallow. simulacrum cannot leave the area or something? does it even make sense?

another question, does unhallow let you bypass xp costs of spells? theres no mention of needing to cast the spell effect you intend to apply to the area.