Power Word spells and balance points

[Sindeloke]

Power Word: Kill is a single-target 9th level spell that deals 100 points of damage or less with no save. It's deeply underpowered - for the same spell slot, you could polymorph into or Gate in a creature that would do that much dpr and have other uses besides - but here's something interesting. If we take from this that an offensive Power Word spell inflicts a level-appropriate condition and substitutes hit points for saving throws....

.... we can actually categorize Sleep as essentially our lowest-level power word spell, a 1st level spell that imposes the Asleep condition with a hit point threshold of ~22.

I have stolen this insight from another thread, which is currently discussing the balance point of Sleep, and the interesting thing is that the consensus I've seen across various forums since 5e came out is that Sleep starts out strong, but scales really poorly. How poorly? Well, if cast as a 9th level spell, it has a hp threshold of ~94. Kinda sounds like the 100 of PW:K, no?

On the other hand, our only other vanilla offensive Power Word spell is Stun, at 8th level, which has a substantially higher threshold of 150 points. It's still probably on the weak end for its level and will lose out to Demiplane, Antimagic Field, or even Dominate Monster (which offers an initial save but no automatic saves after that, and therefore ultimately involves fewer saving throws than PW:S), but it's interesting that the hit point threshold is so out of whack relative to the other two hitpoint-gated spells.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, to be honest. I guess the question is, what would an appropriate threshold be for a given spell level? (And for that matter, what's an appropriate effect? Other spells grant AoE Fear at 3rd level or temporary exhaustion at 4th, but given PW:S is all the way at 8, there's arguably a penalty for the "automatic" nature of the spell... then again asleep is actually pretty strong for 1st level, so idk.)

[Unoriginal]

Power Word: Kill is a single-target 9th level spell that deals 100 points of damage or less with no save. It's deeply underpowered - for the same spell slot, you could polymorph into or Gate in a creature that would do that much dpr and have other uses besides - but here's something interesting. If we take from this that an offensive Power Word spell inflicts a level-appropriate condition and substitutes hit points for saving throws....

.... we can actually categorize Sleep as essentially our lowest-level power word spell, a 1st level spell that imposes the Asleep condition with a hit point threshold of ~22.

I have stolen this insight from another thread, which is currently discussing the balance point of Sleep, and the interesting thing is that the consensus I've seen across various forums since 5e came out is that Sleep starts out strong, but scales really poorly. How poorly? Well, if cast as a 9th level spell, it has a hp threshold of ~94. Kinda sounds like the 100 of PW:K, no?

On the other hand, our only other vanilla offensive Power Word spell is Stun, at 8th level, which has a substantially higher threshold of 150 points. It's still probably on the weak end for its level and will lose out to Demiplane, Antimagic Field, or even Dominate Monster (which offers an initial save but no automatic saves after that, and therefore ultimately involves fewer saving throws than PW:S), but it's interesting that the hit point threshold is so out of whack relative to the other two hitpoint-gated spells.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, to be honest. I guess the question is, what would an appropriate threshold be for a given spell level? (And for that matter, what's an appropriate effect? Other spells grant AoE Fear at 3rd level or temporary exhaustion at 4th, but given PW:S is all the way at 8, there's arguably a penalty for the "automatic" nature of the spell... then again asleep is actually pretty strong for 1st level, so idk.)

Power Word: Kill does not deals damages at all. If the creature has 100 HPs or less, the creature dies. No save, no attack roll, no loss of HPS, no question.

Meaning it bypasses all immunities, all the types of resistances, including Legendary ones, all the features that mitigates saves or attacks, and all the "if you get to 0 HPs X happens" tricks, including a Druid's Wildshape.

[x3n0n]

Meaning it bypasses all immunities, all the types of resistances, including Legendary ones, all the features that mitigates saves or attacks, and all the "if you get to 0 HPs X happens" tricks, including a Druid's Wildshape.

This. In addition, the last Sage Advice clarified that a Wild Shaped/Polymorphed/Shapechanged target dies if the *form* has not enough HP: the base creature's HP are invisible to the spell.

For example, a Druid with 150 HP max and has taken no damage, but is Wild Shaped into a form with 99 HP dies outright to Power Word Kill.

[LordCdrMilitant]

That doesn't make PW:K good.

Kill a target with 100 wounds or less is not particularly impressive for a 9th level spell, particularly because it does nothing if the target has more than that.


It's a great PC killer, which is pretty much the wrong way to use it because a GM shouldn't be aiming to ID their PC's, but kind of generally terrible for a player to use themselves. A Meteor Storm is almost always a better pick, since it does 140 damage with 70 on a pass anyway, and with two damage types it's fairly proficient at still hitting through resistance. Your only concern is catching your fighter in your danger-close bombardment.

Also, at level 17+, most targets that you would consider using your level 9 spell slot against have more than 100 wounds, so it's kind of an adds-clearer which really should be blast.



Sure, you can construct situations where it's the ideal option, but you kind of have to go out of your way to construct those situations so the player has a chance to use their cool point-and-die spell.

[Tanarii]

It's pretty scary if you swap it in on the Archmage (with allies) your level 11 PCs are fighting.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's pretty scary if you swap it in on the Archmage (with allies) your level 11 PCs are fighting.

Chris Perkins did this once (well he didn't exactly use the Archmage stat block, it was Manshoon)on a DCA stream way back in the day. PW:K is one of those spells that is significantly more deadly in the hands of an NPC. By the time a PC has access to it they're facing bigger threats than a "simple" Archmage.

It's also why it would be difficult to increase this threshold at all without consequences. A lot of PC's at the level range your party can encounter (and be expected to defeat) a spellcaster with 9th level spells are still in or very close to the "you die" threshold.

So I guess the threshold and spell level depend on the effect. There's probably no easy answer of what is "fair" with every use case considered.

EDIT: Oh, and if you're calling Sleep as the bottom line, one rung above is Color Spray. It has a less advantageous effect than Sleep, and as a consequence, a slightly higher baseline. ~33 hit points.

[MaxWilson]

Chris Perkins did this once (well he didn't exactly use the Archmage stat block, it was Manshoon)on a DCA stream way back in the day. PW:K is one of those spells that is significantly more deadly in the hands of an NPC. By the time a PC has access to it they're facing bigger threats than a "simple" Archmage.

Meh. It's still counterable by a 3rd level Counterspell, 4th level Death Ward, or 3rd level Revivify, not to mention 2nd level Invisibility or plain old Hiding. It's not a bad sucker punch if the party doesn't see it coming (i.e. if you PWK the Revivify caster after the Counterspell dude has used his reaction on Shield and there's no Death Ward up and the Revivify caster has no Glyphs of Raise Dead set up anywhere), but it's not powerful like e.g. Psychic Scream or True Polymorph (Adult Silver Shadow Dragon) or even Invulnerability is.

I wish it were a bonus action or even a reaction (which the caster can take at any time). That would make it feel like a Power Word spell. The whole point is that they are supposed to be weaker, but very quick to cast.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Meh. It's still counterable by a 3rd level Counterspell, 4th level Death Ward, or 3rd level Revivify, not to mention 2nd level Invisibility or plain old Hiding. It's not a bad sucker punch if the party doesn't see it coming (i.e. if you PWK the Revivify caster after the Counterspell dude has used his reaction on Shield and there's no Death Ward up and the Revivify caster has no Glyphs of Raise Dead set up anywhere), but it's not powerful like e.g. Psychic Scream or True Polymorph (Adult Silver Shadow Dragon) or even Invulnerability is.

I wish it were a bonus action or even a reaction (which the caster can take at any time). That would make it feel like a Power Word spell. The whole point is that they are supposed to be weaker, but very quick to cast.

It was Counterspelled in this example, for what that's worth. I didn't mean to make it sound like it was the best option at current either, clearly there are better, even lower leveled spells, that would be a much bigger threat to the PC's.

Honestly, I think I'd be okay with changing it's action economy. I think the only thing about it that could be problematic is if the HP threshold was changed.

Side Note: Having a Glyph of Raise Dead set up in one of the extra rooms in our parties tavern is something I need to have set up later.

[JackPhoenix]

Glyphs of Raise Dead

No such thing. GoW's targetting restriction won't work on a corpse.

[ProsecutorGodot]

No such thing. GoW's targetting restriction won't work on a corpse.

That's okay, Raise Dead does target a creature. A dead creature.

[MaxWilson]

Side Note: Having a Glyph of Raise Dead set up in one of the extra rooms in our parties tavern is something I need to have set up later.

Be careful to set a password or something on it, or you might accidentally start a new urban legend. :-)

[Tanarii]

It's not a bad sucker punch if the party doesn't see it comingYah. Given the strength of the effect at that level, it's a good thing it has some counters if you do see it coming.

Of course, counterspelling it depends on either: counterspelling everything you can (reasonable against an archmage); your DM ruling nicely with the PHB lack of a rule that you know what spell is being cast; with Xanathars having an ally burn a reaction and a DM that lets them yell a warning out of turn. Not to mention having two counterspellers for when they counterspell your counterspell.

But even so ... like you said, it's possible to deal with if you know it's a threat. But that means it's still scary enough to prompt thinking of a counter.

[Eldariel]

It's one of the victims of the asynchronous HP scaling for monsters and PCs. PCs have a hard time getting over 100 HP before the teens while monsters are looking at those numbers in Tier 2. This means it's still a decent spell against level 10 PCs (and always against Druids) but it's pretty horrible in the hands of a PC. Monsters can easily hit half a thousand HP while even a level 20 Barbarian only has 278 max and that's with the innate level 20 Con bonus that's available to no other class. Level 20 Wizard (in their natural form) probably only has slightly under 200 HP (182 with 20 Con or 16 Con and Tough) so it doesn't take too much damage for them to have to Counterspell every Power Word thrown their way. Of course, that's not really how Wizards fight (Shapechange, Magic Jar and company do exist) but it's worth noting as something of a baseline.

[Nhorianscum]

Divine word is low key strong at least?

I do wish the other power words explored a similar space.

[Gtdead]

Powerword: Stun

Too niche. It may be nice against a lich, but there are better spells around to deal with these situations. If it worked at full health it would be nice. At 150 it's useless and only works well in a party vs single enemy scenario.



Powerword: Kill

This one suffers from another problem, namely the 1 spellslot per day. You want your 9th spellslot to be more versatile than that. However if you know that you have to do a boss fight, and you are already prepared with your simulacrums, contigencies etc, PW:K is a good idea because you can calculate the average damage of the party and bring down the big bad in 1 or 2 turns. Dealing with minions then is easier.

For example against a tarrasque (676) as a lvl 20 party with +3 items etc (I'm not an expert on magical items so this will probably not be optimized):

(I've used a damage calculator I've built for most of these values)

The hasted (wizard concentration) samurai can do 130~ dpr with action surge (546) - +3 Bow
A multiclassed (sorc or fighter dip) tempest cleric with call lightning can do 180 damage or 90 if legendary resistances are used. (366 or 456) - Tome of Understanding
An EA hasted (simulacrum concentration) tenser transformed valor bard (Bard concentration) can deal 75~ (291 or 381) - +3 Bow
The simulacrum can try an upcasted disintegration for 96 or 0 (LR) (195 or 381 (no more LR))
A hasted (paladin concentration) vengeance paladin with 2 5d8 smites can deal 110~ (85 or 271) - Fire Giant's Belt, +3 GS

So there is a scenario where a power word kill can seal the deal.

Of course this can all go sideways if the damage rolls don't work that well or the tarrasque rolls 20 on dex saving throws or party can't prebuff or the party gets counterspelled or or or, but it's a possibility and perhaps it's worthwhile to prepare it.

[JackPhoenix]

That's okay, Raise Dead does target a creature. A dead creature.

Dead creature is an object. A specific type of object, so you won't try to use it on a chair or something, but an object nonetheless.


An EA hasted (simulacrum concentration) tenser transformed valor bard (Bard concentration) with foresight + swift quiver can deal 75~ (291 or 381) - +3 Bow

If the bard concentrates on Tenser's Transformation, who's concentrating on Swift Quiver?

[Unoriginal]

Worth noting that Power Word: Kill one-shot NPCs using the Archmage statblock.

[Gtdead]

Dead creature is an object. A specific type of object, so you won't try to use it on a chair or something, but an object nonetheless.



If the bard concentrates on Tenser's Transformation, who's concentrating on Swift Quiver?

Oh you are right I will edit it out. I used a foresight + SQ build at first, but then changed it to tenser's which performed similarly with less resources. The build only assumes tenser's + simulacrum haste and I just forgot to fix the text.

[Eldariel]

Powerword: Kill

This one suffers from another problem, namely the 1 spellslot per day. You want your 9th spellslot to be more versatile than that. However if you know that you have to do a boss fight, and you are already prepared with your simulacrums, contigencies etc, PW:K is a good idea because you can calculate the average damage of the party and bring down the big bad in 1 or 2 turns. Dealing with minions then is easier.

For example against a tarrasque (676) as a lvl 20 party with +3 items etc (I'm not an expert on magical items so this will probably not be optimized):

(I've used a damage calculator I've built for most of these values)

The hasted (wizard concentration) samurai can do 130~ dpr with action surge (546) - +3 Bow
A multiclassed (sorc or fighter dip) tempest cleric with call lightning can do 180 damage or 90 if legendary resistances are used. (366 or 456) - Tome of Understanding
An EA hasted (simulacrum concentration) tenser transformed valor bard (Bard concentration) with foresight + swift quiver can deal 75~ (291 or 381) - +3 Bow
The simulacrum can try an upcasted disintegration for 96 or 0 (LR) (195 or 381 (no more LR))
A hasted (paladin concentration) vengeance paladin with 2 5d8 smites can deal 110~ (85 or 271) - Fire Giant's Belt, +3 GS

So there is a scenario where a power word kill can seal the deal.

Of course this can all go sideways if the damage rolls don't work that well or the tarrasque rolls 20 on dex saving throws or party can't prebuff or the party gets counterspelled or or or, but it's a possibility and perhaps it's worthwhile to prepare it.

You also have to know enemy HP to do that. And if you just e.g. True Polymorphed your Tenser's Bard into a Marilith and swapped the +3 Bow for a Belt of Fire Giant Strength, you'd have a Marilith with Tenser's absolutely wrecking Big T's ****: 7 attacks at advantage with +12 against AC 25 for 64% hit rate (9,75% crit rate) and you're doing 2d8+7+2d12 = 29 per hit or 31 for the tail. And Haste for the 8th attack. So (29 * 0,5425 + 51 * 0,0975)* 6 + (31 * 0,5425 + 55 * 0,0975) * 2 = 124,23 + 44,36 = 168,59 damage. Which is about equivalent to the extra damage your Power Word: Kill would do but keeps on giving and can be precast (but after the Bard has cast their Tenser's of course) and doesn't run into issues if damage doesn't fall as expected (admittedly in this case you'd have to deal with getting swallowed afterwards but that's fine, you have the Teleport action available and Tarrasque is going down in short order anyways). Of course, he could also disengage with the Haste action and get out. And since we assume buffs are up, the Wizard would still have an action left to do something like shoot Big T in the face with a spell.

Frankly, all those Hastes are kinda wasted; when your characters are doing 8ish attacks in a round, 1 more is just a drop in the bucket. The only case where the Haste may be worthwhile is the Pally where they natively only get 3 attacks (PAM or similar) so an extra for an extra Smite could provide reasonable damage.

[stoutstien]

Most of the big carryover spells from older editions were taken down a few notches. Look what they did to my holy/divine word.

Shifting effects based on HD to HP just didn't work all that well. I think CR would be a better approach. PW: kill being able to instantly kill any CR X and lower feels better IMO.

[Unoriginal]

I think CR would be a better approach. PW: kill being able to instantly kill any CR X and lower feels better IMO.

How would you make it work against PCs?

[Gtdead]

* You also have to know enemy HP to do that. And if you just e.g. True Polymorphed your Tenser's Bard into a Marilith and swapped the +3 Bow for a Belt of Fire Giant Strength, you'd have a Marilith with Tenser's absolutely wrecking Big T's ****: 7 attacks at advantage with +12 against AC 25 for 64% hit rate (9,75% crit rate) and you're doing 2d8+7+2d12 = 29 per hit or 31 for the tail. And Haste for the 8th attack. So (29 * 0,5425 + 51 * 0,0975)* 6 + (31 * 0,5425 + 55 * 0,0975) * 2 = 124,23 + 44,36 = 168,59 damage. Which is about equivalent to the extra damage your Power Word: Kill would do but keeps on giving and can be precast (but after the Bard has cast their Tenser's of course) and doesn't run into issues if damage doesn't fall as expected (admittedly in this case you'd have to deal with getting swallowed afterwards but that's fine, you have the Teleport action available and Tarrasque is going down in short order anyways). Of course, he could also disengage with the Haste action and get out. And since we assume buffs are up, the Wizard would still have an action left to do something like shoot Big T in the face with a spell.

Frankly, all those Hastes are kinda wasted; when your characters are doing 8ish attacks in a round, 1 more is just a drop in the bucket. The only case where the Haste may be worthwhile is the Pally where they natively only get 3 attacks (PAM or similar) so an extra for an extra Smite could provide reasonable damage.

* Yea I assume metagaming knowledge or at least some way to know what you are up against (in game research or something, depends on DM). But no matter if you have that or not, you can always maximize the output of the party and the DM will let you know if you can use PW:K (otherwise it's a completely pointless spell that should never ever be prepared)

Yea with marilith you can do stupid damage. A bladesinger 18/fighter 2 with shapechange can do stuff like that by himself. Get the best belt, a simulacrum with magic weapon and foresight and have fun dealing 300+ damage to the tarrasque in a round. Or cast foresight on yourself 1 second before long rest (yay for cheesing long rest rules) and have the simulacrum cast disintegrate or something.

Having enough damage to kill the tarrasque in two rounds is always fun. Also having 28 AC (bladesong+shield) and defensive advantage, along with resistances to most types of damage and advantage to saving throws isn't too shabby either ^^

I kinda like pitfiend a bit more as a shapechange target.. oh wait, you can do that too next turn.

Wish there was a way to throw a tenser's in here for the 2d12 per attack but alas, I don't see any way. Do you know any? :p

[stoutstien]

How would you make it work against PCs?
Unsure. doesn't really matter IMO. No matter how tactical a table plays PW:K isn't a good use of that slot. Death is just too easily reversed.

[Eldariel]

* Yea I assume metagaming knowledge or at least some way to know what you are up against (in game research or something, depends on DM). But no matter if you have that or not, you can always maximize the output of the party and the DM will let you know if you can use PW:K (otherwise it's a completely pointless spell that should never ever be prepared)

Yea with marilith you can do stupid damage. A bladesinger 18/fighter 2 with shapechange can do stuff like that by himself. Get the best belt, a simulacrum with magic weapon and foresight and have fun dealing 300+ damage to the tarrasque in a round. Or cast foresight on yourself 1 second before long rest (yay for cheesing long rest rules) and have the simulacrum cast disintegrate or something.

Having enough damage to kill the tarrasque in two rounds is always fun. Also having 28 AC (bladesong+shield) and defensive advantage, along with resistances to most types of damage and advantage to saving throws isn't too shabby either ^^

I kinda like pitfiend a bit more as a shapechange target.. oh wait, you can do that too next turn.

Wish there was a way to throw a tenser's in here for the 2d12 per attack but alas, I don't see any way. Do you know any? :p

There's no real good way to go about it. About the only way I can think of is have someone Magic Jar possess you (or in general possess you), cast Tenser's, and then vacate your body (with Tenser's still on but Concentrated on by somebody else) and you then return to cast Shapechange on yourself. You could, of course, do this with your Simulacrum but that's a bit bothersome. It's worth noting that Magic Weapon doesn't really work with Marilith: you can only buff one weapon with it, which is pretty useless when you are attacking with 6 others. Actually, one of the weakest parts in Marilith is the difficulty of buffing all the attacks. True Polymorph + Tenser's sidesteps a lot of the issues but of course, that loses you your class features which means you can't combine it with Elven Accuracy or other fun stuff (Shapechange Foresight Elven Accuracy Bladesinger would be plenty of fun).

But yeah, Shapechange is generally better but for Tenser's fun specifically, True Polymorph makes your life a bit easier. Though it's ultimately still the inferior spell probably. One fun way to go about Shapechange is also to Shapechange into a Planetar and use e.g. Crossbow Expert + SS + EA to shoot the living out of something with those sweet +5d8 bonuses on each attack. This is again a good user for Haste since it only gets 3 attacks naturally but all of them are in the neighborhood of 50 damage and with extremely decent crit potential. 4 attacks at...whatever the Hand Crossbow would do + 15 + 5d8 is plenty reasonable (and it can even be a +3 Large Hand Crossbow for +18 instead and with decent hit bonuses): we're looking at maybe 4x 2d6+18+5d8 at +9 with EA and Advantage for 57,81% hit rate vs. AC 25 and of course 14,26% crit rate for (0,4355 * 47,5 + 0,1426 * 77) * 4 = 126,6658 or (0,7324 * 37,5 + 0,1426 * 67) * 4 = 148,3848 so SS is actually not worth using (though you still want it to attack at 120' with Hand Crossbow of course). Nowhere near what a Marilith can achieve due to there not being Dex boosters comparable to Belt of Giant Strength and due to Marilith having that raw doubling of attacks but still pretty decent; Oathbow could probably do more though.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Fighter 2 actually gives you Archery fighting style too. That's actually a pretty big boost to damage; 72,54% hit rate with SS for (0,5828 * 47,5 + 0,1426 * 77) * 4 = 154,6528 with SS or (0,7934 * 37,5 + 0,1426 * 67) * 4 = 157,5348 without it, so still slightly favourable to not SSing but pretty darn close.

[Unoriginal]

Unsure. doesn't really matter IMO. No matter how tactical a table plays PW:K isn't a good use of that slot. Death is just too easily reversed.

Death of a PC often has a domino effect. If one drops at the beginning of the fight everything gets harder.

Not to mention the stakes get higher because death is only reversed if the PCs win.

[x3n0n]

This. In addition, the last Sage Advice clarified that a Wild Shaped/Polymorphed/Shapechanged target dies if the *form* has not enough HP: the base creature's HP are invisible to the spell.

For example, a Druid with 150 HP max and has taken no damage, but is Wild Shaped into a form with 99 HP dies outright to Power Word Kill.

Having thought about it a bit more, PW:K is a very reliable answer to "what can the PCs do to a BBEG after successfully Polymorphing it".

That said, it's still a very bad use of a 9th-level slot and prepared spell.

[stoutstien]

Death of a PC often has a domino effect. If one drops at the beginning of the fight everything gets harder.

Not to mention the stakes get higher because death is only reversed if the PCs win.

eh, its a pretty big gamble on the NPCs part to rely on PW:K to win encounters. by the time your facing lv 9 spells on a regular as a player you almost expect someone to get dropped every once in a while. bringing a PC back to life is cheap and simple where dealing with a MS being dropped on a city can't be fixed with a diamond and spell slot.

[Valmark]

I've seen it repeatedly and am kinda confused- where does it say that somebody Polymorphed or similar dies in their true form too when targeted succesfully by a PW:K or similar effects? (Dunno if there are. I think mindflayers have an insta-kill ability?)

[Gtdead]

@Eldariel

Oh damn, I hadn't thought about the magic weapon problem with Marilith. I'll need to recalibrate :p .I recently started exploring the 9th level transformation spells and they are pretty fun. Changing into a dragon is effectively a 120 range aoe fear. Marilith has all these attacks.

Pit Fiend is probably the best bruiser and Bladesinger abilities scale so well with it. Basically you become end game boss. Running around with 19 Natural AC + 5 (bladesong) + 5 (shield spell) = 29 and resistance to non magical attacks is fun. Add foresights etc and an enlarge to avoid shallow (although I'm not sure if there any point to it anymore), song of victory (all attacks are considered melee weapon attacks) and you can beat the tarrasque senseless by yourself. You kill it in ~8 turns while it needs 12 to kill you, dealing a mere ~25 dpr against foresight + resistance while you do ~85

[x3n0n]

I've seen it repeatedly and am kinda confused- where does it say that somebody Polymorphed or similar dies in their true form too when targeted succesfully by a PW:K or similar effects? (Dunno if there are. I think mindflayers have an insta-kill ability?)

New sage advice compendium:


[NEW] What happens if I’m polymorphed or Wild Shaped into a creature with fewer than 100 hit points and then I’m targeted by power word kill?

You die.

[Tanarii]

Worth noting that Power Word: Kill one-shot NPCs using the Archmage statblock.
Yes but a level 17 PC is supposed to eat an Archmage for dinner. (They're a bit big for breakfast.)

(I forget how crazy the high level CR system is sometimes. A single Archmage is Hard for a party of 4 10s. A pair is Hard for a party of 4 18s. It works pretty well in Tier 1 and Tier 2, but whenever I look at the two endgame Tiers I see why people complain.)

--------

The important thing here is PW:K is a primary a DM spell. All high level spells are. DMs are using them on BBEGs when the party just got access to level 6 spells! For PCs, they're endgame spells, either never seen because the campaign ends first, or only used a little before the campaign is over. They need to be balanced appropriately for that.

[stoutstien]

Yes but a level 17 PC is supposed to eat an Archmage for dinner. (They're a bit big for breakfast.)

(I forget how crazy the high level CR system is sometimes. A single Archmage is Hard for a party of 4 10s. A pair is Hard for a party of 4 18s. It works pretty well in Tier 1 and Tier 2, but whenever I look at the two endgame Tiers I see why people complain.)

Not to mention they are glass cannons. ~100 HP with low AC is something most party can chew through with little effort. You really have to customize their spell list to include stuff like contingency.

[HappyDaze]

You really have to customize their spell list to include stuff like contingency.

Do they still hold that customizing the spells known/prepared for monsters/NPCs doesn't impact their CR? I know a few players got mighty pissed at an Arcanaloth with a customized/optimized list of spells prepared.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel

Oh damn, I hadn't thought about the magic weapon problem with Marilith. I'll need to recalibrate :p .I recently started exploring the 9th level transformation spells and they are pretty fun. Changing into a dragon is effectively a 120 range aoe fear. Marilith has all these attacks.

Pit Fiend is probably the best bruiser and Bladesinger abilities scale so well with it. Basically you become end game boss. Running around with 19 Natural AC + 5 (bladesong) + 5 (shield spell) = 29 and resistance to non magical attacks is fun. Add foresights etc and an enlarge to avoid shallow (although I'm not sure if there any point to it anymore), song of victory (all attacks are considered melee weapon attacks) and you can beat the tarrasque senseless by yourself. You kill it in ~8 turns while it needs 12 to kill you, dealing a mere ~25 dpr against foresight + resistance while you do ~85

I think Marilith might just win quicker just because it has so many more attacks. While your hit rate is worse, if you have EA and constant advantage, that's pretty minor. And again, you can make significant use of Belt of Giant Strength while Pit Fiend doesn't, really (at best +1). And Reactive means you can cast Shield on your turn and still have a Reaction open the next turn to e.g. Parry an attack (28 AC and Parry means Big T has significant trouble landing hits at Disadvantage). Of course, this is a lot of resources to beat a glorified dinosaur (two 9th level spells! You'll have to make a new Simulacrum afterwards...though I guess you might get some money for killing Big T if you play your cards right) but at least it's stylish to do it in melee. You do have your Bonus Action open to e.g. Misty Step if you do get grappled at an inopportune time; even Disadvantage and AC 33 isn't a guarantee vs. +19 attacks by any means.

But yeah, 7 EA attacks at +12 with Advantage gives you a solid 78,4% hit rate and while your damage without Tenser's isn't all that, with Belt of Fire Giant Strength you're still looking at 2d8+12 and 2d10+12 for the tail with a total of (0,6414 * 21 + 0,1426 * 30) * 6 + (0,6414 * 23 + 0,1426 * 34) = 126,085. That's of course just Foresight + Shapechange + Bladesong. You've got Action Surge to savage it for ~226 on the first round meaning you need about 5 rounds to kill it again and you're pretty well off defensively as well (you're resistant to its attacks, have nice AC and it has Disadvantage).

[stoutstien]

Do they still hold that customizing the spells known/prepared for monsters/NPCs doesn't impact their CR? I know a few players got mighty pissed at an Arcanaloth with a customized/optimized list of spells prepared.
CR is pretty haphazard to being with.
As far as changing spells in NPC blocks as long as the DM isn't just grabbing the perfect spells to counter the party why would it matter? They have a pretty good list as printed.

[MaxWilson]

Death of a PC often has a domino effect. If one drops at the beginning of the fight everything gets harder.

Not to mention the stakes get higher because death is only reversed if the PCs win.

But you can Revivify with a single action, during a fight.

[Valmark]

New sage advice compendium:

[NEW] What happens if I’m polymorphed or Wild Shaped into a creature with fewer than 100 hit points and then I’m targeted by power word kill?

You die

Yes, I've seen that one. But I don't follow- Polymorph already says that the spell ends early if the target goes to 0 or dies- the result is that you go back to normal with the hp you had, unless you reverted because you went to 0 in which case carryover damage.

Doesn't the Sage Advice just confirm what Polymorph already says?

[Tanarii]

Yes, I've seen that one. But I don't follow- Polymorph already says that the spell ends early if the target goes to 0 or dies- the result is that you go back to normal with the hp you had, unless you reverted because you went to 0 in which case carryover damage.

Doesn't the Sage Advice just confirm what Polymorph already says?

So you're dead with whatever hit points you had before you cast the spell, right?

[Gtdead]

-snip-

Averaging the tarrasque's attacks (along with the legendary action), it deals 19.6+mod per attack at +19. With disadvantage that's 10.66 against 28 AC and 3.63 against 33 AC. Parry works against a single attack, so it's 5x10.66+3.63=56.64 average, half against resistance (28.32)

So the marilith shapechange is expected to last (189/28.32 = 6.67 rounded up) 7 turns.

Depending on what you use parry on, it may change the results a bit, but won't be anything drastic statistically.

You are right, Marilith makes shorter work of the encounter.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, I've seen that one. But I don't follow- Polymorph already says that the spell ends early if the target goes to 0 or dies- the result is that you go back to normal with the hp you had, unless you reverted because you went to 0 in which case carryover damage.

Doesn't the Sage Advice just confirm what Polymorph already says?

Some people ask questions the game already answer.

In the case of Polymorph, dying or getting to 0 HPs result in the same (so you can't ust Polymorph an enemy into a chicken then drown them). This isn't true for all of the shape-changing effects.

[Valmark]

So you're dead with whatever hit points you had before you cast the spell, right? Logically you'd be alive. I don't think the spell makes you an undead.


Some people ask questions the game already answer.

In the case of Polymorph, dying or getting to 0 HPs result in the same (so you can't ust Polymorph an enemy into a chicken then drown them). This isn't true for all of the shape-changing effects.

Yeah, I didn't mean that it's universally true- just in the scope of Polymorph which I saw referenced.

[LordCdrMilitant]

How would you make it work against PCs?

In my opinion, this is a spell that you should never use on a NPC. it's obviously most powerful on an NPC, but using it as a GM is basically just doing a "rocks fall, you die" on a party member.

It doesn't matter what kind of game you're running, as a GM you're not in competition with the players. This is almost exclusively a mechanism to re-fluff a rocks fall you die.

[Tanarii]

Logically you'd be alive. I don't think the spell makes you an undead.Whats undead got to do with the price of milk?

Having hit points doesn't make you ambulatory, conscious, and powered by negative energy just because you're also dead.

[MaxWilson]

In the case of Polymorph, dying or getting to 0 HPs result in the same (so you can't ust Polymorph an enemy into a chicken then drown them).

As far as I can tell from the PHB rules, you _can_ do the drowning trick in deep water because when you've drowned you can't regain HP until you can breathe again. If they're still underwater once they return to normal form, and they can't breathe underwater, then they're still drowned.

You can't drown the chicken in a fishbowl and expect that to work on a huge demon, but you could drown it in a lake.


In my opinion, this is a spell that you should never use on a NPC. it's obviously most powerful on an NPC, but using it as a GM is basically just doing a "rocks fall, you die" on a party member.

It doesn't matter what kind of game you're running, as a GM you're not in competition with the players. This is almost exclusively a mechanism to re-fluff a rocks fall you die.

I think if you telegraph it as part of the monster lore, it's fine (e.g. Orcus). Unlike Rocks Fall there is still counterplay possible (Revivify, Counterspell, Death Ward, illusions/decoys). It's still weak but that's okay as long as it fits the monster lore instead of being a spell that a wizard NPC deliberately learned on purpose in place of something good. If Orcus doesn't even have the OPTION to know Invulnerability instead, then PWK has no opportunity cost for him.

[x3n0n]

Yes, I've seen that one. But I don't follow- Polymorph already says that the spell ends early if the target goes to 0 or dies- the result is that you go back to normal with the hp you had, unless you reverted because you went to 0 in which case carryover damage.

Doesn't the Sage Advice just confirm what Polymorph already says?


So you're dead with whatever hit points you had before you cast the spell, right?


Some people ask questions the game already answer.

In the case of Polymorph, dying or getting to 0 HPs result in the same (so you can't ust Polymorph an enemy into a chicken then drown them). This isn't true for all of the shape-changing effects.

Based on the SAC ruling, I assumed something like: you die and revert to your native form, but you're dead in that form (as described in Tanarii's post).

[Valmark]

Whats undead got to do with the price of milk?

Having hit points doesn't make you ambulatory, conscious, and powered by negative energy just because you're also dead.

Which is... What I said. With less words.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Based on the SAC ruling, I assumed something like: you die and revert to your native form, but you're dead in that form (as described in Tanarii's post).

Yeah. Being brought to 0HP is the most common way of getting dead, but not the only one. You can be dead at full HP.

[Eldariel]

Yes but a level 17 PC is supposed to eat an Archmage for dinner. (They're a bit big for breakfast.)

(I forget how crazy the high level CR system is sometimes. A single Archmage is Hard for a party of 4 10s. A pair is Hard for a party of 4 18s. It works pretty well in Tier 1 and Tier 2, but whenever I look at the two endgame Tiers I see why people complain.)

Yeah, if an Archmage can't wipe the floor with a level 10 party, the DM is playing them far under their potential or the party is obscenely lucky. Of course, their statblock doesn't include any longterm defenses (they should at the very least have their Contingency active and preferably some stuff from Wish like Greater Steed and some such) and their spell loadout is highly suspect. Simple Meteor Swarm from above 60' away is extremely hard for a 10th level party to even survive; a 10th level Hill Dwarf Barbarian with 16 Con has 115 HP so on average they barely survive while raging with 10 HP (Totem Barb would do better of course) but basically everyone else autodies if they fail the save (even with Absorb Elements) and some might drop even on a successful save. So it's straight-up DC 17 Dex-or-die for basically the whole party to start off the fight and it's not getting much easier from there.

[Sindeloke]

Most of the big carryover spells from older editions were taken down a few notches. Look what they did to my holy/divine word.

Shifting effects based on HD to HP just didn't work all that well. I think CR would be a better approach. PW: kill being able to instantly kill any CR X and lower feels better IMO.

I've kicked around the idea of "target's [target attribute] < caster's [casting attribute]" (say, con < int when wizard casts PW:K), but with bounded accuracy and the attribute range being what they are, that swings too far in the other direction.

I wonder if the problem isn't just that it's aiming at the wrong use case? What if it weren't a single-target nuke, but a chaff-clearing spell that just kills everything that hears it up to a certain power threshold? Makes it much easier to balance for NPC use, as a threat against mounts, familiars, minions, but not an unfair oneshot on the PCs themselves, and it can be tweaked stronger for PC use until its actually competitive with a Marilith blender.

[Unoriginal]

How about this: turn Power Word: Kill into "if the target's is lower than your casting stat, they die".

[Samayu]

PWK is a tough spell. Definitely unfun. At a boss battle at 16th level, I was killed with one of those. The DM says, "he casts Power Word Kill. You're dead. I was like "wait, what? Oh. OK, I guess I'll just go sit down over there, until it's time to leave." We'd spent quite a while learning how to balance healing magic, but as the cleric, I was the only one with revivify and whatnot.

[MaxWilson]

PWK is a tough spell. Definitely unfun. At a boss battle at 16th level, I was killed with one of those. The DM says, "he casts Power Word Kill. You're dead. I was like "wait, what? Oh. OK, I guess I'll just go sit down over there, until it's time to leave." We'd spent quite a while learning how to balance healing magic, but as the cleric, I was the only one with revivify and whatnot.

Heh. If I were the DM it would be, "You're dead." (Hands you a character sheet.) "This is the guy who killed you. You're now playing him, and your job is to kill everyone else."

[Tanarii]

Heh. If I were the DM it would be, "You're dead." (Hands you a character sheet.) "This is the guy who killed you. You're now playing him, and your job is to kill everyone else."
Yeah I've done that too. It's amazing how much better players can be at trying to kill their teammates with an enemy than I am. :smallamused:

[Thunderous Mojo]

PWK is a tough spell. Definitely unfun. At a boss battle at 16th level, I was killed with one of those. The DM says, "he casts Power Word Kill. You're dead. I was like "wait, what? Oh. OK, I guess I'll just go sit down over there, until it's time to leave." We'd spent quite a while learning how to balance healing magic, but as the cleric, I was the only one with revivify and whatnot.

*Emphasis Added*

Not to diminish at all the dismay at being killed early in a session, but being at 100 HP or under puts you in danger of being dusted by a lucky damage roll of an 7th level Disintegrate spell.

I'm with Max Wilson here...as the DM I'm going to let you, (or whomever else died first to PWK), play the Creature.

I'd also allow you to spend Inspiration and have "Advantage" on the Divine Intervention roll. My grognard heart misses percentile dice.

[Dark.Revenant]

*Emphasis Added*

Not to diminish at all the dismay at being killed early in a session, but being at 100 HP or under puts you in danger of being dusted by a lucky damage roll of an 7th level Disintegrate spell.

I'm with Max Wilson here...as the DM I'm going to let you, (or whomever else died first to PWK), play the Creature.

I'd also allow you to spend Inspiration and have "Advantage" on the Divine Intervention roll. My grognard heart misses percentile dice.

A 16th level Cleric with 12-13 Con (not unreasonable if you're a healer/blaster type) will have 99 HP.

[Eldariel]

A 16th level Cleric with 12-13 Con (not unreasonable if you're a healer/blaster type) will have 99 HP.

I'd never play a caster with under 14 Con, not primarily for HP but rather Concentration checks and Con-saves, both of which are fairly huge. 16 Con is generally the target for baseline.

Of course, characters do often take damage so that's no safeguard.

[HappyDaze]

PWK is a tough spell. Definitely unfun. At a boss battle at 16th level, I was killed with one of those. The DM says, "he casts Power Word Kill. You're dead. I was like "wait, what? Oh. OK, I guess I'll just go sit down over there, until it's time to leave." We'd spent quite a while learning how to balance healing magic, but as the cleric, I was the only one with revivify and whatnot.

After one game ended in a TPK, my players make sure every character can lend in some healing. Last party was bard, cleric, druid, and paladin. Three of four had healing word, and taking anyone out for more than a round was unlikely unless everyone went down. It really changes the challenge of the game from easy to very easy.

[Tanarii]

I'd never play a caster with under 14 Con, not primarily for HP but rather Concentration checks and Con-saves, both of which are fairly huge. 16 Con is generally the target for baseline.So Con is either your secondary stat, or you secondary stat raised by at least one ASI?

What happens when you play a Medium armor wearer (like 4/9 of Cleric domains) as well. Dex 12-13?

[x3n0n]

After one game ended in a TPK, my players make sure every character can lend in some healing. Last party was bard, cleric, druid, and paladin. Three of four had healing word, and taking anyone out for more than a round was unlikely unless everyone went down. It really changes the challenge of the game from easy to very easy.

Just to make sure I follow: that shouldn't be relevant here, right? The thread topic spell kills (not just KOs) so traditional pop-up healing doesn't fix it.

[Eldariel]

So Con is either your secondary stat, or you secondary stat raised by at least one ASI?

What happens when you play a Medium armor wearer (like 4/9 of Cleric domains) as well. Dex 12-13?

Point buy does allow 16/15-16/13-14/etc. Use Res: Con to reach 16/16/14.

[MaxWilson]

A 16th level Cleric with 12-13 Con (not unreasonable if you're a healer/blaster type) will have 99 HP.

And Death Ward, and Aid.

[Segev]

This doesn't necessarily say much about power word: kill by itself, but one of the nastier traps in the Tomb of Annihilation is in Kubazan's tomb. Trigger it, and certain PCs turn into frogs, as if polymorphed, no save, just as a trio of wraiths appear and start to attack. Wraiths have an attack that, if it reduces you to 0 hp, forces you to make a Constitution save or die. While you're a frog with 1 Constitution and so few hp that any hit will drop you to 0 hp. In my run of it, only the Barbarian fell victim to this, and thus all of her hp, her features protecting her from bad saves, and her high constitution, were worthless.

[Thunderous Mojo]

And Death Ward, and Aid.

The Death Ward Spell, I do not believe, is an effective defense against PWK.
Death Ward protects you from dropping to zero Hit Points from damage.

PWK is not doing damage....you just die, if you meet the criteria.

An upcast Aid spell helps of course.

PWK is a nasty spell.

Placing A Regenerate spell on a cleric, usually means that barring outright death from Massive Damage or Crits when unconscious, the Cleric is going to pop back up. PWK shuts Regenerate down.

[MaxWilson]

The Death Ward Spell, I do not believe, is an effective defense against PWK.
Death Ward protects you from dropping to zero Hit Points from damage.

PWK is not doing damage....you just die, if you meet the criteria.

An upcast Aid spell helps of course.

PWK is a nasty spell.

Placing A Regenerate spell on a cleric, usually means that barring outright death from Massive Damage or Crits when unconscious, the Cleric is going to pop back up. PWK shuts Regenerate down.

Death Ward directly counters PWK and other death magic. Emphasis mine:

Death Ward
You touch a creature and grant it a measure of Protection from death. The first time the target would drop to 0 Hit Points as a result of taking damage, the target instead drops to 1 hit point, and the spell ends. If the spell is still in effect when the target is subjected to an effect that would kill it instantaneously without dealing damage, that effect is instead negated against the target, and the spell ends.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Excellent! I remembered paragraph one, and not paragraph two of Death Ward.

Sorry, away from books.

Power Word Kill has not aged well. In 1e, the spell only took 1 Segement to cast which is approximately a Bonus Action in 5e terms. PWK took the least amount of time to cast.

There also was no Death Ward spell.

[Eldariel]

Excellent! I remembered paragraph one, and not paragraph two of Death Ward.

Sorry, away from books.

Power Word Kill has not aged well. In 1e, the spell only took 1 Segement to cast which is approximately a Bonus Action in 5e terms. PWK took the least amount of time to cast.

There also was no Death Ward spell.

Also massive HP bloat since then.

[Segev]

What if knowing or having prepared a Power Word automatically gave you knowledge of when creatures in range were at few enough hp to be affected?

[Ionathus]

I'd like to leap into this discussion to mention that I've had PWK cast on me as a PC, by the DM, and my ally counterspelled it with a clutch check. It was a cool moment at the table.

And if that counterspell had failed, it would have been a garbage moment for me. 5e has completely done away with practically every other Save or Die effect -- so why leave a single, impossible-to-resist insta-kill effect in the spellbook? It doesn't belong in any NPC's repertoire, except for use against other NPCs to scare the party. I don't want instakill of PCs in the games I play or run, but maybe other people want different playstyles.


What if knowing or having prepared a Power Word automatically gave you knowledge of when creatures in range were at few enough hp to be affected?

That's a nice moment for the Battlemaster Fighter to shine with Know Thy Enemy! Otherwise, I don't think it's a good idea because it removes what is arguably the fun part for me as a player: "I have an ace up my sleeve, but is now the right moment to play it? Do I wait for better odds after some more damage, but potentially miss my shot?"

[MaxWilson]

Excellent! I remembered paragraph one, and not paragraph two of Death Ward.

Sorry, away from books.

Power Word Kill has not aged well. In 1e, the spell only took 1 Segement to cast which is approximately a Bonus Action in 5e terms. PWK took the least amount of time to cast.

There also was no Death Ward spell.

Yes, 5E's adaptation of the Power Word spells is not ideal. They don't feel power word-y. I tend to believe PWK should have been a reaction, which you can take at any time in response to any stimulus. To me that is a reasonably-good way to give the same feel of ultra-quick casting time.

It also goes without saying that AD&D does not have quick and easy resurrection like 5E does. In 5E, PWK may work perfectly and kill you, and yet potentially you're still back in action six seconds later thanks to Revivify. In AD&D there's a good chance PWK renders you perma-dead, and even if it doesn't it still costs you a permanent point of Constitution, not to mention all of your spells memorized and your ability to fight for several days (maybe a week? AFB). It's a serious liability.


Also massive HP bloat since then.

Yeah, by a factor of 1.5x to 6x I believe, depending on whether you're measuring monsters or high-level wizards or low-level fighters.


What if knowing or having prepared a Power Word automatically gave you knowledge of when creatures in range were at few enough hp to be affected?

It's an interesting idea but I think that mechanic shouldn't be a one-off. In games derived from (A)D&D, having a given spell memorized shouldn't do anything unless you cast the spell, unless you mod the system so that ALL spells have passive effects when memorized. Which some people have done, I guess.

[sithlordnergal]

That's a nice moment for the Battlemaster Fighter to shine with Know Thy Enemy! Otherwise, I don't think it's a good idea because it removes what is arguably the fun part for me as a player: "I have an ace up my sleeve, but is now the right moment to play it? Do I wait for better odds after some more damage, but potentially miss my shot?"

I don't think Know Thy Enemy would actually be of any help in this situation...You need to spend a full minute observing/interacting with a creature outside of combat to use it.

[Samayu]

What if knowing or having prepared a Power Word automatically gave you knowledge of when creatures in range were at few enough hp to be affected?
In my case, we were fighting a deity with a high INT. The DM (fairly, I think) could tell I was a valid target. And yes, as someone mentioned, at L16 I had 99 HP. And I was hurt.

A few people commented on my battle and death...
I can't remember the Death Ward situation. I wonder if I didn't realize it would counter PWK. Or didn't have it up? First time I'd ever played a character over L12. BBEG was killing everyone who went below zero, as of about halfway through the combat. And BBEG was the boss of the final battle, and the only enemy in the room, and the DM knew its abilities far better than I, so he would not have handed control over to me.

Also, we spent four rounds not being able to relieve him of his final hit point, during which time he killed three of us. The last guy standing took him out and escaped.

[Asisreo1]

Yes but a level 17 PC is supposed to eat an Archmage for dinner. (They're a bit big for breakfast.)

(I forget how crazy the high level CR system is sometimes. A single Archmage is Hard for a party of 4 10s. A pair is Hard for a party of 4 18s. It works pretty well in Tier 1 and Tier 2, but whenever I look at the two endgame Tiers I see why people complain.)

--------

The important thing here is PW:K is a primary a DM spell. All high level spells are. DMs are using them on BBEGs when the party just got access to level 6 spells! For PCs, they're endgame spells, either never seen because the campaign ends first, or only used a little before the campaign is over. They need to be balanced appropriately for that.
Let's not forget that archmages needn't be played as the main force of attack, they could easily be working under a lich in order to become one, a dragon as an ally, or a fiend as their slave.

In such cases, instantly and unambiguously removing a combatant may prove beyond useful considering the effects it has with action economy. It makes it doubly better since now there won't be a caster to counterspell your or your allies spells when facing the big honcho.

[Thunderous Mojo]

It doesn't belong in any NPC's repertoire, except for use against other NPCs to scare the party. I don't want instakill of PCs in the games I play or run, but maybe other people want different playstyles.


If I was going up against a dark cabal of Wizards, like Death Eaters or the Arcane Brotherhood, and found out that the cabal held the secrets to a Death Curse...(Cough, Power Word: Kill)....I would find it flavorful to fall to the ravages of the forbidden knowledge.

Death is easy to cure. Resurrection cures disease and poison. You can drink yourself to death, and be fresh as a daisy after the spell.
A 9th level Bestow Curse, that follows you past death.



In AD&D there's a good chance PWK renders you perma-dead,
Just adding the clause that a death caused by PWK is only reversible by a Wish spell makes an interesting change. I might houserule that change.

Death Spell was always strictly better then PWK in AD&D, sometimes too good.

Death Spell, Disjunction, and the Summon Monster series are the spells I miss most.

[zinycor]

It's a great PC killer, which is pretty much the wrong way to use it because a GM shouldn't be aiming to ID their PC's,

I disagree on this, at the level where players are facing monsters with 9th level spells, death is more of a condition the party will probably be ready to handle.

Now, a very effective condition of course.