Who is the most powerful spellcaster in FR?

[Max Caysey]

As on the tin... I know this has probably been done hundreds of times before, but I would was thinking who or what was the strongest spellcaster in FR? It could be either arcane or divine...

Let’s hear it!

Cheers!

[Palanan]

There are several contenders, but two stand out—Larloch the Shadow King and Ioulaum of Netheril, now rocking the illithid lifestyle as the Oracle of Ellyn’taal.

Ed Greenwood has unofficially mentioned that Larloch is “probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard,” although that’s an approximation rather than anything hard-and-fast. Greenwood describes him as an “ultra-lich” who has several dozen other liches serving him. He also has stats in Lords of Darkness listing him as a Wizard 20/Epic 12.

As for Ioulaum, he was a Netherese archwizard who first became a lich and then merged with an elder brain. By the 3.0 era he’s over 4600 years old and is listed as a Wizard 31/Archmage 5/Netherese arcanist 4, so level 41 all told. If you take Ed Greenwood’s estimate for Larloch as unofficial, then Ioulaum pulls ahead.

There are plenty of other ultra-powerful entities hobnobbing around the Realms, but these two seem to be on the higher end of mortal-ish casters.

[Darg]

Before or after spellplague? And what are the parameters for being the most powerful? Godhood? Not being a god? Within or without one's personal domain?

Elminster and Halaster are my top picks without any further elaboration. They are also the two I'm familiar with.

[Max Caysey]

Before or after spellplague? And what are the parameters for being the most powerful? Godhood? Not being a god? Within or without one's personal domain?

Elminster and Halaster are my top picks without any further elaboration.

Ahh sorry for the lack of precision... I’m looking for information regarding the realms pre-spellplague.

In terms of power I regard CL/ level as one parameter, but I know chosen status, lichdom or other templates will influence pure magical output... I’m not looking for deities here... but mortal beings however powerful it might be...

But I’m thinking magical output.. as in how many amps of magical volts can someone deliver? That’s probably the best analogy I can come up with!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mystra, probably. Y'know, given that her body IS the Weave, and all.

[Oberron]

Deities aside I think laloch is up there since iirc him and mystra of more or less an understanding/agreement with one another. Laloch has multiple liches and demi liches under his commands too.he has multiple artifacts and I want to say has even helped sazz tamn out with a few things, and sazz seems pretty scared of him?

[GrayDeath]

Deities aside I think laloch is up there since iirc him and mystra of more or less an understanding/agreement with one another. Laloch has multiple lunches abd demi lunches under his commands too.he has multiple artifacts and I want to say has even helped sax tamn out with a few things?

Lunches under his comand? .....snicker ^^

Jokes aside, not counting gods and pre spell plague and going for pure Power, i agree itll likely be Laloch.
Although why helping out Szass Tam should be particularly important for that....well.

[Eladrinblade]

What level is the Srinshee?

[DarkSoul]

What level is the Srinshee?She was a level 30 wizard/high mage in 2e, around 715 DR (660 years in the past). I don't know if she's been given 3e stats. Still not as powerful as Larloch or Ioulaum. Shaan the Serpent Queen is said to be in a similar league as Larloch, but I'm 90% sure she's never been given stats at all, just a mention in Dragon Magazine and the Spellstorm novel.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Doesn't Pun Pun work best in FR?

[ShurikVch]

Rhaugilath (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Rhaugilath)?
Arthindol (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Arthindol)?
Andoris Derathar (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Andoris_Derathar)?
Telamont Tanthul (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Telamont_Tanthul)?
...
Karsus (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Karsus)?

[GrayDeath]

Rhaugilath?
Arthindol?
Andoris Derathar?
Telamont Tanthul?
...
Karsus?


I`ll give you Arthindol, but the other 4 are either long dead, limited in where/when they can act, or weaker than the abovementioned.

[torrasque666]

Elminster. Because when you're banging the goddess of Magic who can just shut off magic for everyone else, you're top dog.

[ShurikVch]

the goddess of Magic who can just shut off magic for everyone else
It's gross exaggeration: not just Shadow Magic is completely out of her grasp, but raw magic, Epic magic, and Githyanki astral magic too

[Cicciograna]

It's gross exaggeration: not just Shadow Magic is completely out of her grasp, but raw magic, Epic magic, and Githyanki astral magic too

I seem to recall that also Elven High Magic was something different from the Weave, and thus outside the purview of 'ole Mystra, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kurald Galain]

Elminster, because of plot armor.

Canonically, the Simbul is stronger than Elmy, but yeah, plot armor. Except in 4E where he's explicitly a weakling due to spellplague, but any earlier or later editions it's Elmy hands down.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

All the 3e spellcasters are subject to the Spellplague, so the answer is probably "anyone who leaves before then."

[GrayDeath]

Or who arrives after. After all, FR must not be considered only "born" FR, I am sure there are more than a few "immigrants" of high enough Power.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

FR is a crapsack deathworld. I'd be social distancing right out of there. Coming back after the Spellplague (assuming it's 100% burnt out by then, with zero chance of catching it) would mean you're right on the top of the heap, if you could keep your casting abilities despite the state of the Weave by then.

Otherwise, I'd avoid it like the plague. You know which one I'm talking about.

[Efrate]

Does not the spellplague only change how magic works. I seem to remember catti brie helping folks relearn how it used to be after some time travel/reincarnation shenanigans. Also is it not just the weave users that it affects? Most the netherese mages were off weave were they not? They understood the fundamentals of magic and did not adjust.

Also prince? of shade may be up there but I do not know if he has been statted. Also maybe some phaerim might be up there as well.

Short answer is likely elminster, because of plot armor, Marty stu syndrome.

[Melcar]

Here is an official list of FR casters, pre-spellplague:

Please note: These totals are caster levels, not CR.

Also, I am not the author of this list. I believe I have it off candlekeep forum.

54 Srinshee (NG Female Sun Elf 54) (Annotated Elminster)
46 Larloch (LE Male Human Lich 47) (Annotated Elminster)

41 Ioulaum (LN elder brain lich Wiz31/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 Qysar Shoon VII (NE male human demilich Necromancer31/Acm5) (p121 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 The Skulls (CN advanced flameskull Sor26/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p111 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
35 Telamont Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz20/Acm5/Sha10) (p82 Lords of Darkness)
33 Rhangaun (NE male human lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic8) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
32 Larloch (LE Male Human lich Wiz20/Epic12) (p161 Lords of Darkness)
32 Aumvor the Undying (CE augmented elite Netherese human lich Necromancer (15/Acm5/Epic7/NethereseArcanist5) (p127 Champions of Ruin)
32 The Simbul (CN female human Sor20/Acm2/Wiz10) (p112 Unapproachable East)
31 The Keeper of Thaal (NE male human demilich Wiz31) (p179 Underdark)
31 Kartak Spellseer (CE male augmented human lich Nec20/Acm5/Epic6) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
30 Arthindol (N male sarrukh lich Wiz25/Acm5) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
30 High Lord Planner Illis Khendarhine (LN male deep Imaskari Sor4/Wiz20/Acm6) (p138 Underdark)
30 Lady Saharel (CG female Netherese human ghost Wiz20/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p90 Anauroch: The Empire of Shade)
30 Halaster Blackcloak (male human Wiz25/Acm5) (p6 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
29 Elminster (CG male human Chosen of Mystra Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4)(p7 FRCS)
29 Szass Tam (NE male lich Necromancer10/RedWizard10/Acm2/Epic7) (p169 Unapproachable East)
29 Lord Apprehender Ebrul Naramixna (N male deep Imaskari Sor10/Wiz15/Acm4) (p138 Underdark)
29 Zalathorm Kirkson (LN male human Diviner20/Loremaster4/Halruaan Elder5) (p133 Shining South)
29 Rhaugilath the Ageless (LG male human archlich Wiz22/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist2) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
28 Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (LE male human lich Wiz20/Acm3/Netherese Arcanist5) (p111 Lost Empires of Faerun)
27 Shradin Mulphor (NE nishruu [augmented male human] Necromancer22/Acm5) (p110 (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (LN male human Chosen of Mystra Wiz24/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Shangalar the Black (LE male tiefling lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic2) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
27 Priamon "Frostrune" Rakesk (CE male human lich Wiz20/Acm4/Epic3) (p178 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
26/11 Danchilaer the Mad Mage (LN male Halruaan human Wiz21/Sor6/Acm5) (Dapplegate) [http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060628a]
26 Ardanthe (LN female human Wiz24/Acm2) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight) [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041124a]
26 Belaurant (CN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Mardamaun (LN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Brennus Tanthul (NE male shade Diviner12/Loremaster8/ShadowAdept6) (p61 Power of Faerun)
26 Lamorak Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz19/Sha7) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
25 Meleghost Zoaster (CN male human Illusionist20/Acm5) (p116 Serpent Kingdoms)
25 Ygnaroth the Necroseer (CE phaerimm Sor25) (p166 Underdark)
25 Daurgothoth (CE male great wyrm black dracolich Wiz20/Acm5) (p42 Dragons of Faerun)
25 Malchor Harpell (NG male Illuskan human Wiz20/Acm5) (p76 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
25 Mattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Vattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Manshoon (LE male human Wiz20/Acm5) (p156 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
25 Izazrem Thal (LN male Rashemi human Wiz16/RedWizard9) (p145 Power of Faerun)
24 Alustriel (CG female human Chosen of Mystra Wiz20/Sor2/Acm2) (p54 Silver Marches)24 Marune the Masked (NE male Tethyrian human Necromancer5/ShadowAdept14/Acm5) (p68 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Nevron (NE male human Cjr10/Red10/Acm2/Epic2) (p278 FRCS)
24 Phaeldara (CN female human Sor16/Wiz8) (p111 Unapproachable East)
24 Telbran Nelarn (CN male Netherese human Sor24) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Pharos (N male moon elf baelnorn Wiz24) (p124 Lost Empires of Faerun)
24 Keiler Twistbeard (CE male Chondathan Wiz20/Planeshifter4) (p115 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Druxus Rhym (NE male human Tra10/Red10/Acm4) (p278 FRCS)
24 Immirton "Redcloak" Loaden (NG male Tashalar human Wiz14/Master Transmogrifist10 [formerly a LG transmuter]; Str 17, Int 18, Wis 17)
23 Tabra (NG female human Wiz18/Acm5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
23 Dethud Tanthul (LE male shade Nec15/Sha8) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
23 Laeral Silverhand (CG female human Wiz19/Sor4/Rgr7) (p280 FRCS)
23 Aznar Thrul (CE male Mulan human Evoker10/RedWizard10/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
23 Phourkyn One-Eye (NG male human Wiz20/Acm3) (p161 FRCS)
23 Skouloun (CN male human Wiz22/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
23 Ilcanorr of Luthcheq (NE male Turami human Wiz20/Acm1/Epic2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060510a)
23 Shyressa (NE female human vampire Wiz20/Acm3) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
23 Gulgath (CN male human Wiz23) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
23 Maskar Wands (LN male Tethyrian human Wiz20/Acm3) (p63 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
###DECEASED###
23 Scalmarel the Sage (LE phaerimm Sor23) (p166 Underdark)
22 Nezram the World-Walker (LN male human Mulan Wiz22) (p80 Lost Empires of Faerun)
22 Ornar of the Claw (CE male human Wiz19/Acm3) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
22 Scsilda Starshield (LN female Cali****e human Sor19/ElementalSavant3 [lich of unique status: unturnable]) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20061122
22 Guldor Zauviir (NE male drow Wiz20/Acm2) (p175 Underdark)
22 Lauzoril (NE male human Enc10/Red10/Acm2) (p278 FRCS)
22 Sylune (NG female human spectral harpist Wiz20/Sor2/Ftr2) (p280 FRCS)
22 Yhelbruna (LN female human Clr6/Wiz12/Hatran10) (p147 Unapproachable East)
21/6 Yusendre (CG female human Wiz20/Sor6/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
21 Lallara (CE female human Abj10/Red10/Acm1) (p278 FRCS)
21 Deltagar Zelhund (LE male human Wiz18/Lor2/Acm1) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
21 Rhodea Firehair (NG female human Evoker18/Halruaan Elder3) (p134 Shining South) ###DECEASED###
20/3/1 Dyrr the Lichdrow (NE male drow lich Sor20/Wiz3/Clr1 of Velsharoon) (p161 Underdark)
20 Talatha Vaerovree of Innarlith (Female human Wiz17/Acm3) (p187 Magic of Faerun)
20 Malaggar Xarann (CE male drow Enchanter20) (p175 Underdark)
20 Srivven (NE male Mulan human Wiz18/Acm2) (Adaerglast, the Land of Mages)
20 Flammuldinath "Firefingers" Thuldoum (CG male human Wiz20) (p161 FRCS)
20 Antatlab of the Shaking Stones (LE male drow Wiz13/Elemental Savant7) (p175 Underdark)
20 Gromph Baenre (NE male drow Diviner 16/Acm4) (p161 Underdark)
20 Hadrhune (NE male shade Wiz10/Sha10) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
20 Jaluth "Snakeface" Alaerth (CE female human Wiz20) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
20 Slarkrethel (NE male kraken Sor20) (p74 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Thurndan Tallwand (CE male human Wiz20) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
20 Savengriff (LG male Illuskan human Wiz20) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Othur Roonsundyr (CN male human Wiz20) (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Phindounma the Abominable (NE phaerimm Sor20) (p166 Underdark)
20 Mythrellaa (CE female human Ill10/Red7/Sha3) (p278 FRCS)
20 Durendair "Greenshadow" Hammask (NG male Illuskan human Wiz14/Horizon Walker4/MysticTheurge2; Str 17, Dex 16, Int 18, Wis 18)
20 Kappiyan Flurmastyr (NG male Tethyrian human Wiz7/MasterAlchemist10/Loremaster3) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Amaryth Delbara (CG female Illuskan human Sor14/Incantatrix6) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060705a)
20 Flyndara Rildar (CN female Tethyrian human Wiz14/Sor6)
20 Melegaunt Tanthul (LE male shade Div16/Sha4) (p83 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
20/8 The Farseer (LN male Tashlutan human Clr8 of Savras/Diviner10/MysticTheurge10) (p126 Serpent Kingdoms)
20 Zannaster (LE male Chondathan human Necromancer5/Wearer of Purple10/Acm5) (p55 Dragons of Faerun)
20 Alathene Moonstar (CG archlich [augmented Illuskan human] Wiz15/ArcaneDevotee5[Selune]) (p62 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)

Obviously some of them are from the very early days of 3.0 and so are awefully built but this is an official list non the less!

[KoDT69]

I'm just taking a wild stab at this because I only know a fraction of the FR life, but given what I do know Is say:

#1 Elminster - because the Chosen of Mystra powers, plus his level (assuming 40+), age, and overall actual experience would make him pretty tough to contend with.

#2 Kharsus - because what other mortal caster not only forced a deity's power to be channeled into himself, and caused every other mortal like forever to be limited to 9th level spells?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are there any FR spellcasters who actually use the magic system like most people here would?

[Biggus]

There are several contenders, but two stand out—Larloch the Shadow King and Ioulaum of Netheril, now rocking the illithid lifestyle as the Oracle of Ellyn’taal.

Ed Greenwood has unofficially mentioned that Larloch is “probably a 46th level evil-aligned wizard,” although that’s an approximation rather than anything hard-and-fast. Greenwood describes him as an “ultra-lich” who has several dozen other liches serving him. He also has stats in Lords of Darkness listing him as a Wizard 20/Epic 12.

As for Ioulaum, he was a Netherese archwizard who first became a lich and then merged with an elder brain. By the 3.0 era he’s over 4600 years old and is listed as a Wizard 31/Archmage 5/Netherese arcanist 4, so level 41 all told. If you take Ed Greenwood’s estimate for Larloch as unofficial, then Ioulaum pulls ahead.

There are plenty of other ultra-powerful entities hobnobbing around the Realms, but these two seem to be on the higher end of mortal-ish casters.

Pretty much this. Officially Ioulaum and Karsus are the highest-level casters in recorded history, tied at 41. Then there's a big drop to 36 (Shoon VII).

The most powerful non-deity overall is definitely Ioulaum, as a CR25 elder brain with 41 additional spellcaster levels.

[schreier]

It's gross exaggeration: not just Shadow Magic is completely out of her grasp, but raw magic, Epic magic, and Githyanki astral magic too

I was just reading over the History of Magic in the Wiki, and was thinking that might be how epic magic worked in the realms, but then I see this reference. Is there a direct discussion of how raw magic works in the realms? Does it still use the weave?

[sreservoir]

Are there any FR spellcasters who actually use the magic system like most people here would?

If they did, they'd hardly be in the running for most powerful spellcaster in FR, now, would they?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If they did, they'd hardly be in the running for most powerful spellcaster in FR, now, would they?Well, they'd definitely be somewhere else, assuming they knew about the Spellplague and didn't actually like the place.

We know there're links between FR and Earth; possibly via the Plane of Shadow. So getting here would be possible, although maybe not easy. I wonder if Lev (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/in-the-shadow-of-zero.183345/) ever figured that out. Probably not, given he never did come back.

[hamishspence]

Pretty much this. Officially Ioulaum and Karsus are the highest-level casters in recorded history, tied at 41. Then there's a big drop to 36 (Shoon VII).


When was Karsus ever officially given 41 character levels? In 3.0 to 3.5 that is? I don't recall ever seeing it. He's described as "a genius of Ioulaum's caliber" but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were exactly the same level.



The "Epic12" thing for Larloch, does have the problem of it being from very early 3.0 when you could take Improved Spell Capacity instead of taking any of the other benefits of an extra level. So Larloch only had 20 Wizard levels, saves and BAB as appropriate for a 20th level wizard, a Caster Level of 20, etc.

Elminster was built the same way, with "Epic4" But when the Epic Handbook came out, those were replaced with regular wizard levels.

Presumably, an "fully updated" version of Larloch would be Caster Level 32 instead of Caster level 20, have Netherese Arcanist levels, etc.



Regarding Ioulaum - wouldn't "merging with an elder brain" count as possessing it, so he doesn't get to use his own saves, Hit Dice, etc, and has to use the Elder Brain's instead of his own?

If it was more like a magical version of Mind Switch and True Mind Switch:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm


some of the Elder Brain's stats would be replaced with his own.

But one wouldn't expect him to have all the powers and hit dice of an elder brain plus all the powers and hit dice of a 41st level caster. Most ways of taking another being's body, mean a tradeoff.

[Biggus]

When was Karsus ever officially given 41 character levels? In 3.0 to 3.5 that is? I don't recall ever seeing it. He's described as "a genius of Ioulaum's caliber" but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were exactly the same level.


It appears you're correct, I must have been remembering something from 2E (where they were both listed as level 41).

[Melcar]

When was Karsus ever officially given 41 character levels? In 3.0 to 3.5 that is? I don't recall ever seeing it. He's described as "a genius of Ioulaum's caliber" but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were exactly the same level.
Karsus is mentioned in the old Netheril Boxed Set as being level 41 arcanist - the same level as Ioulaum is given in the same book. Karsus didn't get a writeup in 3.X



Regarding Ioulaum - wouldn't "merging with an elder brain" count as possessing it, so he doesn't get to use his own saves, Hit Dice, etc, and has to use the Elder Brain's instead of his own?

If it was more like a magical version of Mind Switch and True Mind Switch:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm


some of the Elder Brain's stats would be replaced with his own.

But one wouldn't expect him to have all the powers and hit dice of an elder brain plus all the powers and hit dice of a 41st level caster. Most ways of taking another being's body, mean a tradeoff.

Well, IIRC its described as him creating the elder brain - and wanting psionics because the fragility of the weave being connected/part of an entity - so he created a creature who was exactly that... which he permanently merged with... and became a lich. (True Mind Switch would fit the bill here)... In my world he is has 67 HD, and is a CR 70 NPC. Because there is no reason he should loose his casting, and officially he still retains 41 levels of arcane spellcaster (31 wiz/ 5 Acm/ 5 Netherese Arcanist). Rule wise your are probably right, but I've always just accepted that the greatest magical genius of his time was able to gain all the benefits of a mastermind creature... Officially he's a elder brain lich with 41 levels of spellscaster = 67d12 HD.

There is a rule somewhere, cant remember where, where you take the creatures stats and reduce them by 10 or 11 depending on whether its a even number or not and that is then the racial bonus to a stat. I did that, the one time I tried to stat him out, and ended up with some very high stats, (68 in Int including items) but in all fairness, he is IMO one of the three greatest spellcaster of Realmspace, the other being Karsus (however I see Karsus as being more like an autistic savant, that a great genius) and the Srinshee... So I thought it fitting that he had staggering stats...

[hamishspence]

Well, IIRC its described as him creating the elder brain - and wanting psionics because the fragility of the weave being connected/part of an entity - so he created a creature who was exactly that... which he permanently merged with... and became a lich.

He was a lich before he did the merger.

Presumably the "undead elder brain" was not a lich before the merger (liches have to be humanoid) but the merger was done in such a masterful way that he was able to bring the template with him and confer every bit of the lich template on a creature that normally can't have it.

[Melcar]

He was a lich before he did the merger.

Presumably the "undead elder brain" was not a lich before the merger (liches have to be humanoid) but the merger was done in such a masterful way that he was able to bring the template with him and confer every bit of the lich template on a creature that normally can't have it.

That, or he made the elder brain of Alhoons which are undead mindflayers...