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kemmotar
2007-11-02, 11:03 PM
According to the dmg, an appropriate CR encounter with a difficulty of challenging, is one monster equal the average ECL of party of 5...

Now from what i have witnessed, too many DMs make encounters too hard by trying to make it not be a pushover for players with better than average skills and abilities than what was contemplated in DMG...

Now my guess would be that if you raise the EL by one for a party of five should be enough...

But if you increase the party by one member then increasing the EL further by one wouldn't be a viable solution since the target of the monster will probably die in a few rounds without having much choice...

Now using more monster of lower level according to the EL table could be more viable in an encounter. But in essence the EL does not change...so what is the best way to get a challenging encounter?

I'm thinking using the CR=ECL-1 and using 2 monsters, but instead using one extra monster of the appropriate CR...Thus increasing the EL without "forcing" a player to die for the sake of party survival...

Furthermore, how would you change the CR for a party without a healer?
Does CR change the higher you go by level?How much increase in EL would a higher level encounter merit?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-02, 11:13 PM
According to the dmg, an appropriate CR encounter with a difficulty of challenging, is one monster equal the average ECL of party of 5...

Now from what i have witnessed, too many DMs make encounters too hard by trying to make it not be a pushover for players with better than average skills and abilities than what was contemplated in DMG...

Now my guess would be that if you raise the EL by one for a party of five should be enough...

But if you increase the party by one member then increasing the EL further by one wouldn't be a viable solution since the target of the monster will probably die in a few rounds without having much choice...

Now using more monster of lower level according to the EL table could be more viable in an encounter. But in essence the EL does not change...so what is the best way to get a challenging encounter?

I'm thinking using the CR=ECL-1 and using 2 monsters, but instead using one extra monster of the appropriate CR...Thus increasing the EL without "forcing" a player to die for the sake of party survival...

Furthermore, how would you change the CR for a party without a healer?
Does CR change the higher you go by level?How much increase in EL would a higher level encounter merit?

I don't care for the CR system and I use it more of guidelines. It is much easier for me to figure out my party's strengths and weaknesses then put them up against monsters that will challenge them, but still lose. I use a very free form system and very few monsters out of a book, most are just NPCs with class levels. Of course, I haven't read most of the DMG, so I don't totally understand th CR system, but I've never needed to.

triforcel
2007-11-02, 11:18 PM
I've only used CR for two things. One is easy calculation of experience, and this is automatically balanced for more or less party members because it's devided evenly. Another is a ballpark estimate of what's appropriate for the encounter level.

If you want to have an appropriately challenging encounter, you need to worry more about the abilities of the monsters and party members than any EL, ECL, or CR calculations. If it's a melee creature it should be hittable by the fighter but not easily hittable by the wizard. If it has spell like abilities, the party should have a way of overcoming them, ie if it can cast wall of force the party should have access to disintegrate. Stuff like that. It takes a little experimentation for each party to find the right level of challenging and fun.

Temp
2007-11-02, 11:57 PM
The CR system is flawed. It's just too ambitious of a mechanic--there are going to be vast differences in group power levels and there will always be other considerations (how prepared the group is, whether they have characters who can play to an enemy's weaknesses, that sort of thing).



Just do your best to eyeball opponents that'll be an even match for the party. It takes a bit of experience to do well, but it's really the most accurate method.

greenknight
2007-11-03, 12:11 AM
According to the dmg, an appropriate CR encounter with a difficulty of challenging, is one monster equal the average ECL of party of 5...

It's a party of 4. That is, 4 characters should be able to survive 4 challenging encounters per day (although their resources should be stretched by the last one).


Now from what i have witnessed, too many DMs make encounters too hard by trying to make it not be a pushover for players with better than average skills and abilities than what was contemplated in DMG...

This opens up a whole can o' worms with regard to class balance and play style. But ideally, the first such encounter per day should be fairly easy for the PCs (since they're fresh and at full power), while each successive encounter becomes more difficult for them because their resources are being worn down.


Now my guess would be that if you raise the EL by one for a party of five should be enough...

The DMG specifies a range of encounters, from easy to difficult (up to 4 higher than the average party level). One really difficult (average party level +4) encounter per day can often drain all the party's resources (and can even result in a TPK if the DM does it when the party is fairly low level).


But if you increase the party by one member then increasing the EL further by one wouldn't be a viable solution since the target of the monster will probably die in a few rounds without having much choice...

That's another problem with the CR/EL rating method. It's not easy to work out what's an appropriate challenge when you don't have a 4 member party, although with experience most DMs can eyeball it fairly well.


Furthermore, how would you change the CR for a party without a healer?
Does CR change the higher you go by level?How much increase in EL would a higher level encounter merit?

CR doesn't change depending on party composition, although the abilities of some party members might make an otherwise challenging encounter easy. The DMG does a pretty good job of explaining the rest of it, although whether that really works in game is another matter.