Skilled Archer maximization, Help/Advice Requested

[broodax]

I would like to make the best archer (loosely defined, other weapon-based ranged combat is acceptable) that I can while retaining a large portfolio of proficient skills and "roguelike" abilities.

Point Buy, PHB+Xanathar's, playing Descent into Avernus, which I understand goes through the low teens in level. I am strongly considering Wood-Elf in order to use Elven Accuracy. The campaign will likely be played in Theater of the Mind, and therefor Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter will be less valuable, as I know from experience that the DM won't be keeping track of cover, range, etc. with any detail.

I've considered fighter, ranger, rogue, cleric, and warlock, and think that I've arrived at:

Rogue 1 - Need to take Rogue first or lose out on multiple skill proficiencies
Ranger (Gloomstalker) 1-5 - Get another skill, Gloomstalker goodies, Ranger basics, first ASI, and Extra attack
Rogue (Scout) 2-3 - Scout goodies (incl. more skills) and a SA die.

There are a number of bothersome tradeoffs with this, however. First, my first ASI is delayed 1 level, and my second will be delayed even more if I don't continue Rogue. For this reason I feel it's almost required that I take Rogue 4, which is a worthless level otherwise. I then have a lot of choices as to whether continue Rogue (SA dice and Wisdom saves), Gloomstalker (more spells and wisdom saves), or Fighter (Samurai) for another skill and free advantage, which I would plan to use with Elven Accuracy, or War Cleric for another limited set of bonus damage dice and more spellcasting.

How is this plan in general? Is it significantly weaker in combat than more traditional archer builds (i.e. Fighter 20), and do the additional skills and rogue/gloomstalker tools make up for it? Am I missing anything obvious, and is there a best path forward if these are actually my first 8 levels?

[Ir0ns0ul]

Sometimes we think that good builds need to have careful and dedicated planning mix matching several specific classes and subclasses.

For what you are trying to accomplish, I would go simpler: Wood Elf and full Rogue progression up to level 8. Grab Elven Accuracy by level 4 and round your DEX to 20 at level 8. If you want to be more skillmonkey, go Scout. If you want to be really powerful and versatile, you can never go wrong with Arcane Trickster. At level 9, jump in Fighter to get Archery FS and be the most reliable shooter of the planet.

You will get everything desired without complication or too much invention.

[stoutstien]

Do whatever feels right. It's extremely difficult to screw up any combination of rogue and ranger unless you purposely do so. Even then the character will still be competent.

-Those first three levels of gloom stalker are really nice but delaying reliable talents hurts if you want to be big on skills.

- scout has been mentioned for the bonus expertise. I will have to add Inquisitive to this as well. Ear for deceit with a halfway solid bonus is amazing in a game set in Neverwinter.

[RogueJK]

Gloomstalker 5/Scout X is definitely a natural combo. IIRC, Avernus goes to 13ish, so that would be 5/8.

Another option for a solid "skilled Archer" is Rogue 1 or 2 or 3/Battlemaster Fighter X. This lets you do more than just cause damage with your arrow hits. (Just pay attention to what Battlemaster Maneuvers you select, since some of them state they're triggered by Weapon Attacks and can be used with ranged weapons, while others are only usable for Melee Attacks.) For this build, you definitely want 1 level of Rogue for skills and Expertise, and probably want 2 for Cunning Action to have something useful to do with your Bonus Action, and possibly 3 levels depending on how badly you want the Skirmisher ability and Survivalist skills in exchange for missing out on gaining our 3rd Attack at Fighter 11 at the tail end of the campaign. The delay to your ASIs from the Rogue levels will be made up at Fighter 6 when you get an extra one.

No matter what combo you pick, even if you won't be playing on a tactical map or keeping track of cover or range, Sharpshooter is a must for the -5/+10 damage boost. With the Archery fighting style from your Ranger/Fighter levels, the attack penalty is only effectively -3. The remaining -3 can be easily negated through Advantage, Bardic Inspiration, the Bless spell, etc. Sharpshooter is basically necessary for all archers to keep your archery damage competitive at higher levels.



-Those first three levels of gloom stalker are really nice but delaying reliable talents hurts if you want to be big on skills.


If he multiclasses more than 2 levels in anything, he won't be able to get Reliable Talent at all, since the campaign ends at 13ish level.

So if he takes 3 levels of Ranger, it not only delays Reliable Talent, but removes it completely. If he wants Reliable Talent (which won't come online until the very end of the campaign anyway), he'd have to go straight Rogue, or something like Fighter1/RogueX or Ranger2/RogueX to get the Archery fighting style. But that means giving up any shot at Extra Attack.

[RogueJK]

Another non-traditional option for a Skilled Archer, especially if your party needs a Face and/or another spellcaster, would be something like Fighter 1 or 2/Valor Bard X. You'd be an even better all-around skill monkey than a Rogue (excepting a Rogue 11+ with Reliable Talent), and would still have Extra Attack and Archery fighting style. Plus you'd have the ability to hand out Bardic Inspiration and cast Bard spells.

In this build, you'd likely want to start with a Fighter level for CON save proficiency since you'll need that to help keep up your Concentration. You'll still end up with the same number of starting Skills, once you multiclass into Bard.

Your spellcasting would lag a little bit, since you'd be initially prioritizing your DEX over CHA and would be a level or two behind from the Fighter level(s). But you could focus on buffing/utility spells to mitigate that. (Besides, most of your enemies in Avernus will have Magic Resistance, so most of the Bard's selection of Save or Suck control/debuff/damage spells aren't going to be a good choice anyway, even if you had a maxed out CHA...)

*Note that if you go this Skilled Archer Fighter/Bard route, DO NOT take the Swift Quiver spell as one of your Magical Secrets, as is recommended by most "Archer Bard" guides online. It only produces nonmagical ammo. Nearly every enemy you'll be fighting in Avernus will have Resistance to damage from nonmagical weapons.

[loki_ragnarock]

Arcane Archer isn't beloved, but it is pretty good at being an archer.

Third level ability nets you a skill. Feat heavy progression lets you invest in the less beloved skill feats *and* sharpshooter. The 7th level ability lets you potentially hit even when you miss, incentivizing the use of sharpshooter. Arcane shot lets you apply some interesting debuffs in addition to smashing through enemy hp like the Kool-Aid Man. Because you've got a minor in intelligence, you're better than the average at things like investigation and knowledge checks, and being able to maintain distance means you don't have to pump con as much as a typical fighter. Play a human and pick up Prodigy for some super skill goodness.

It's pretty Plane Jane, but sometimes simple gets the job done. No mobility power, but two levels of rogue solve that pretty well.

[Kemev]

How is this plan in general? Is it significantly weaker in combat than more traditional archer builds (i.e. Fighter 20), and do the additional skills and rogue/gloomstalker tools make up for it? Am I missing anything obvious, and is there a best path forward if these are actually my first 8 levels?

The plan in general is OK; Rogue + Gloomstalker dovetail together pretty well, and you will get a strong skill/spell toolbox to play with.

But is it weaker in combat? Yeah, probably. As you've accidentally highlighted, there's some core weaknesses to multiclassing when you also want a feat-focused build. You want to build around Elven Accuracy, but getting there ASAP requires taking a class to level 4, which is otherwise a dead level. Or if you want the A-list class features, you have to put off the feat.

There's not really a good way around this... most optimal multiclass builds don't really come "online" until level 7 or 8, which is a long time if you're playing a character up from level 1.

Elven Accuracy is especially tricky in this regard. Not only do you need the feat itself, but you need some sort of payload to go with it (otherwise you're just really accurate in delivering 1d8+4 a pop, which is kinda lame). That payload could be either a pile of sneak attack dice, or the Sharpshooter -5/+10. Which means either leaning into rogue for the SA dice, or fighter for the extra feat.

So while I don't think the Gloomstalker multiclass is bad, I'd say your best path forward early on is single class either rogue (if you want more skills/expertise), or samurai (if you just want the raw damage). Let Gloomstalker be your endgame. Rogue has a few different good stopping point (depending on your preferred archetype), or Level 11 is an ideal endpoint for Samurai.

[broodax]

Sometimes we think that good builds need to have careful and dedicated planning mix matching several specific classes and subclasses.

For what you are trying to accomplish, I would go simpler: Wood Elf and full Rogue progression up to level 8. Grab Elven Accuracy by level 4 and round your DEX to 20 at level 8. If you want to be more skillmonkey, go Scout. If you want to be really powerful and versatile, you can never go wrong with Arcane Trickster. At level 9, jump in Fighter to get Archery FS and be the most reliable shooter of the planet.

You will get everything desired without complication or too much invention.

This is not unattractive to me. I don't get everything... but I do get a lot. Missing out on Gloom Stalker attacks and hiding ability isn't great, nor is not having extra attack. The tradeoff is that, of course, I get more SA dice and don't slow ASI.

I am quite enamored of the Gloom Stalker, though, and may want to fit it in just for flavor's sake.

[broodax]

The plan in general is OK; Rogue + Gloomstalker dovetail together pretty well, and you will get a strong skill/spell toolbox to play with.

But is it weaker in combat? Yeah, probably. As you've accidentally highlighted, there's some core weaknesses to multiclassing when you also want a feat-focused build. You want to build around Elven Accuracy, but getting there ASAP requires taking a class to level 4, which is otherwise a dead level. Or if you want the A-list class features, you have to put off the feat.

There's not really a good way around this... most optimal multiclass builds don't really come "online" until level 7 or 8, which is a long time if you're playing a character up from level 1.

Elven Accuracy is especially tricky in this regard. Not only do you need the feat itself, but you need some sort of payload to go with it (otherwise you're just really accurate in delivering 1d8+4 a pop, which is kinda lame). That payload could be either a pile of sneak attack dice, or the Sharpshooter -5/+10. Which means either leaning into rogue for the SA dice, or fighter for the extra feat.

So while I don't think the Gloomstalker multiclass is bad, I'd say your best path forward early on is single class either rogue (if you want more skills/expertise), or samurai (if you just want the raw damage). Let Gloomstalker be your endgame. Rogue has a few different good stopping point (depending on your preferred archetype), or Level 11 is an ideal endpoint for Samurai.

This may be the best thought process, just taking all the rogue levels I want first... and I could still hop into Gloom Stalker after Rogue 8 or 9.

[broodax]

I calculated some DPR, etc. and came to the conclusion that delaying extra attack is just not worth it. I think what I'm going to do is start Ranger (losing one skill over the life of the character) and go straight to 5, then do 3-4 Rogue. The earlier access to Hunter's Mark, Extra attack, Gloom Stalker features, and an ASI; and STR vs. INT save proficiency will, I think, outweigh not having Sneak Attack for those first five levels and losing one skill proficiency.

It'll also allow me to see how the campaign is going and determine whether those rogue levels are needed, or whether I want to do something else.

[Edea]

The 'skilled' part throws a wrench into this idea, but as far as 'archer' is concerned...man, Hexbow rocks, IME. Probably would go with Bard for the 'skilled' part, if doing that.

[broodax]

The 'skilled' part throws a wrench into this idea, but as far as 'archer' is concerned...man, Hexbow rocks, IME. Probably would go with Bard for the 'skilled' part, if doing that.

If there wasn't a ranged warlock in the party already, I would absolutely be doing this.