OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[FlawedParadigm]

I see Durkon's time as a vampire taught him the utility of Silence.

[dancrilis]

Greyview he was just talking to them and they attacked him - bad dwarves.

[wkwkwkwk1]

I love how you did Greyview's expressions. The confusion and then the determination. Amazing! :smallbiggrin:

[Feytouched]

I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.

[Fyraltari]

I remain impressed by The Giant's ability to predict what people wil ltalk about in the threads.

Also, Greyview, shoot raise the alarm first, then quip.

Also also, Durkon is a true friend, always thinking of what's convenient for his best buddy.

[ChaosOS]

Raising the alarm is apparently not a free action

[Zhorn]

:durkon: "Na sense in makin' it harder fer tha lad"
heh, always the team player

[Windscion]

Well, that explains why Greyview didn't say anything last comic. He was uncertain what to say.

[littlebum2002]

I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.

If Roy would have let Durkon cast Sending, then he could have talked with Redcloak without revealing that they were physically close.

[arverst_aegnar]

That's very accommodating of you, Durkon. Hopefully Roy is as understanding as you seem to be.

So i understand that though Durkon is older than Roy, he's at roughly the same age state (young adult) as him. I've never thought about him calling Roy "lad" before, does he see him as a younger peer or closer to whatever a 20-something dwarf would be? Obviously he looks up to Roy as a leader and treats him as an adult and everything, i'm just curious now that i've noticed it.

[UndertheBridge]

Durkon, Lawful to a fault as always, I see.

[Fyraltari]

If Roy would have let Durkon cast Sending, then he could have talked with Redcloak without revealing that they were physically close.
But Redclaok would have expected them to show up all the same.
besides, you cannot negotiate in 25 words.

That's very accommodating of you, Durkon. Hopefully Roy is as understanding as you seem to be.

So i understand that though Durkon is older than Roy, he's at roughly the same age state (young adult) as him. I've never thought about him calling Roy "lad" before, does he see him as a younger peer or closer to whatever a 20-something dwarf would be? Obviously he looks up to Roy as a leader and treats him as an adult and everything, i'm just curious now that i've noticed it.

Maybe it's not lad as "younger male" but lad as in "go out drinking with the lads"?

[Gift Jeraff]

Nice to see Durkon learning a few tricks from his evil self.

[dancrilis]

That's very accommodating of you, Durkon. Hopefully Roy is as understanding as you seem to be.

So i understand that though Durkon is older than Roy, he's at roughly the same age state (young adult) as him. I've never thought about him calling Roy "lad" before, does he see him as a younger peer or closer to whatever a 20-something dwarf would be? Obviously he looks up to Roy as a leader and treats him as an adult and everything, i'm just curious now that i've noticed it.

Panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) implies he regards them all as young.

[Agi Hammerthief]

he better not murder them at the same time.

[factotum]

Well, if nothing else it appears Durkon realised he just catastrophically messed things up for the rest of the party by attempting to carry out his god's wishes...

[Worldsong]

And that wraps up several questions quite nicely.

Well done Giant.

[Psyren]

It was at least brilliant to put the Silence on Greyview. Now he has to run all the way into the dungeon to warn Team Evil, who hopefully are embroiled in combat with some big nasty that they can't easily get away from. Although this will tip them off about MitD pretty quickly.

If team dwarf is truly lucky, Greyview will end up endangered by something in there too.


If Roy would have let Durkon cast Sending, then he could have talked with Redcloak without revealing that they were physically close.

They know empirically from V though, that a Redcloak expecting attack will set some nasty magical traps though. Tipping him off either way could have been bad.

I don't agree with what Durkon did, but at the end of the day Durkon's true boss is Thor, not Roy.

[One Skunk Todd]

So it IS only Xykon, RC and Oona in that cave. Well, for the moment anyway.

[Fyraltari]

It was at least brilliant to put the Silence on Greyview. Now he has to run all the way into the dungeon to warn Team Evil, who hopefully are embroiled in combat with some big nasty that they can't easily get away from. Although this will tip them off about MitD pretty quickly.

What do you mean?

[RMS Oceanic]

I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.

From Durkon's perspective, getting the drop on Xykon and just defeating him doesn't address the more pressing issue, the existential sword of Damocles. The rifts are already deteriorating, how much longer would it take for the Gods to inevitably unravel the world even if this one gate is protected? He took the only chance he saw to actually fix that problem, and unfortunately it didn't pan out.

[understatement]

Loving these short (no pun intented) but simple solutions the dwarves are tossing out. I also like how they've managed to outgambit Team Evil without the latter having to hold the villain ball.

[Syncrogti]

Great comic, I love that it shows some of the mechanics of spells and the zone of silence. I am curious to see what Roy and the team will do now. Did the wolf not get hit? I don't see any damage.

[Schroeswald]

I hope we get back to the rest of the Order soon, we haven’t seen them in four months, I miss them.

[Jacky720]

But what about Wind Walk?


What do you mean?
If they had put the spell on any part of the area, as soon as Greyview left the radius he'd be able to just call into the dungeon. As it is, he'll need to get within sight or 20ft instead before they notice him.

[Peelee]

Ya know, I can't help but wonder what the tracks inside the cave were that Oona had found.

[Fyraltari]

But what about Wind Walk?


If they had put the spell on any part of the area, as soon as Greyview left the radius he'd be able to just call into the dungeon. As it is, he'll need to get within sight or 20ft instead before they notice him.
And what does this have to do with Monster-san?

Ya know, I can't help but wonder what the tracks inside the cave were that Oona had found.
Serini’s?

[Psyren]

What do you mean?

Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) can be cast on a creature, object, or point in space. Usually you want one of the last two options because there's no will save to overcome it that way. Durkon however, chose the more difficult first option because then, the spell sticks to Greyview and will keep him quiet all the way until he can reach his allies. This was a reasonable tactic since worgs have weak will saves.

[Lord Torath]

Ah Durkon, Always so thoughtful! Love his last line.

Thanks, Rich!

[arverst_aegnar]

Maybe it's not lad as "younger male" but lad as in "go out drinking with the lads"?

Maybe, though "the lad" sounds more like how you refer to a youngster -- which is probably what kickstarted my curiosity.


I hope we get back to the rest of the Order soon, we haven’t seen them in four months, I miss them.

I almost commented on how long it had been since we'd seen the Order, but then i thought, 'How long has it been, really?' and dropped it. Apparently almost 4 months, which considering the rate this comic updates (not a complaint), isn't that long, but is pretty long.

[Fyraltari]

Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) can be cast on a creature, object, or point in space. Usually you want one of the last two options because there's no will save to overcome it that way. Durkon however, chose the more difficult first option because then, the spell sticks to Greyview and will keep him quiet all the way until he can reach his allies. This was a reasonable tactic since worgs have weak will saves.

And this will tip Team Evil off about the MiTD how?

[Psyren]

And this will tip Team Evil off about the MiTD how?

My post had two different things in it:

1) The mechanics of Greview being silenced
2) Team Evil potentially ending up in combat with some tough monsters, impairing their ability to continue chasing the dwarves.

Getting tipped off about MitD referred to the latter. They're in a door with Xs on it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html), so they won't be expecting any monsters. But MitD was falsely painting doors (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html), so there's a nonzero chance they actually all ran into a fresh dungeon teeming with enemies.

[Metastachydium]

And now we have definitive proof that pessimism does in fact pay.

[dancrilis]

What do you mean?

They mean that if there are monsters in the marked door that Xykon and co will notice and deduce that someone has been marking invalid doors.

[The Pilgrim]

Glad to see Durkon is going to come clean on Roy about this.

[Fyraltari]

My post had two different things in it:

1) The mechanics of Greview being silenced
2) Team Evil potentially ending up in combat with some tough monsters, impairing their ability to continue chasing the dwarves.

Getting tipped off about MitD referred to the latter. They're in a door with Xs on it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html), so they won't be expecting any monsters. But MitD was falsely painting doors (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html), so there's a nonzero chance they actually all ran into a fresh dungeon teeming with enemies.


They mean that if there are monsters in the marked door that Xykon and co will notice and deduce that someone has been marking invalid doors.
It's more likely they suspect the order of marking the doors rather than the MitD.

[WindStruck]

If team evil is in combat, they probably won't even know it was the worg with silence casted on it until it is dispelled.

And can they even cast dispel in a field of silence?

Just trying to figure it out and futilely attempting to talk to one another in the silence would probably be a hilarious waste of time.

[Lex]

Poor Roy. All this time spent planning the perfect way to defeat Xykon, and his best friends screws everything up at the last moment. Our party leader is gonna be extremely pissed.

[Metastachydium]

If team evil is in combat, they probably won't even know it was the worg with silence casted on it until it is dispelled.

And can they even cast dispel in a field of silence?

Just trying to figure it out and futilely attempting to talk to one another in the silence would probably be a hilarious waste of time.

I'm fairly certain Greyview can communicate such simple messages as ”follow me, it's important” to Oona without words. Also, his inability to vocalise this message would tell Team Evil he probably ran into the clerics.

[Ghosty]

If team evil is in combat, they probably won't even know it was the worg with silence casted on it until it is dispelled.

And can they even cast dispel in a field of silence?

Just trying to figure it out and futilely attempting to talk to one another in the silence would probably be a hilarious waste of time.

From this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm new creatures entering the Silence field around Greyview, get a Will save and Spell Resistance, if applicable, against the effects.

LOL if it ended up fizzling a spell or two while Team Evil was in combat.

Durkon and Minrah really didn't have an exit strategy beyond running. Wow.

[KorvinStarmast]

From Durkon's perspective, getting the drop on Xykon and just defeating him doesn't address the more pressing issue, the existential sword of Damocles. {snip} The rifts are already deteriorating, how much longer would it take for the Gods to inevitably unravel the world even if this one gate is protected? He took the only chance he saw to actually fix that problem, and unfortunately it didn't pan out.This.

Reasons to love this comic:
1. Greyview is in it. (My nose was very confused just made me laugh. I have two dogs)
2. Tactical use of a low level spell in a high level encounter (high level in the sense that Redcloak and Xykon are the problem)
3. Why they can't stop and heal
4. The last panel: Durkon, always thinking about others. :smallbiggrin:

As to the assertion of 'evil dwarves' that is an ally of their enemy, and all they needed to do was knock him out. (But Minrah missed, so that's moot). Also, if we recall recent history, Greyview chomped down on Minrah's foot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1213.html) ...

[Dion]

Greyview he was just talking to them and they attacked him - bad dwarves.

They didn’t even post signs saying this was their territory.

[Metastachydium]

Poor Roy. All this time spent planning the perfect way to defeat Xykon, and his best friends screws everything up at the last moment. Our party leader is gonna be extremely pissed.

I'd presume that Roy has the tactical prowess it takes to realize that if Xykon's soon to be on them, he should probably leave expressing his anger and dissatisfaction for later.

[Peelee]

It's more likely they suspect the order of marking the doors rather than the MitD.

But the MitD is with them and the Order isn't. Quick and easy to ask Monnie Darko if he did it, and poor Bluff checks and good Sense Motive checks are possibilities.

[Fyraltari]

But the MitD is with them and the Order isn't. Quick and easy to ask Monnie Darko if he did it, and poor Bluff checks and good Sense Motive checks are possibilities.
The MitD isn't with them, he's (presumably) still at the village right now.
Why would they suspect him? Do you think they'll ask Redcloak whether he did it too?

[Peelee]

The MitD isn't with them, he's (presumably) still at the village right now.
Huh. Missed that. Regardless, they know where he is, which is still something they don't have with the Order.

Why would they suspect him?
Because he's been painting doors.

Do you think they'll ask Redcloak whether he did it too?
Why not? Redcloak, of course, has the advantage of not needing a Bluff check. And also has a direct stake in finding the right door while the MitD has no stake in it at all, of course.

[Goblin_Priest]

I was wondering where Greyview went.

Also, I see Durkon likes to prep all these super situational spells in the morning. :P

Also 2, they knew there are intruders in town. They could very well suspect that Durkon drew the extra Xs to hinder their efforts.

[King of Nowhere]

the premature gloat? greyview, i was expecting better from you when your life is on the line.


My post had two different things in it:

1) The mechanics of Greview being silenced
2) Team Evil potentially ending up in combat with some tough monsters, impairing their ability to continue chasing the dwarves.

Getting tipped off about MitD referred to the latter. They're in a door with Xs on it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html), so they won't be expecting any monsters. But MitD was falsely painting doors (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html), so there's a nonzero chance they actually all ran into a fresh dungeon teeming with enemies.

on the other hand, they may also assume that monsters respawn periodically

[b_jonas]

It was at least brilliant to put the Silence on Greyview. Now he has to run all the way into the dungeon to warn Team Evil, who hopefully are embroiled in combat with some big nasty that they can't easily get away from. It's a tradeoff. Greyview probably has some magic resistance, so if Durkon casts Silence on her, there's a risk that the spell fails, and then Greyview has a turn to raise the alarm. If he casts it on the are, the spell will succeed.

[Psyren]

I'm fairly certain Greyview can communicate such simple messages as ”follow me, it's important” to Oona without words. Also, his inability to vocalise this message would tell Team Evil he probably ran into the clerics.

No - only familiars have an empathic link like that. Animal Companions need to be handled like any other animal; worgs are more intelligent and can communicate via speech, but the Silence is stopping that. Oona won't have any way of detecting danger from Greyview mentally.



Durkon and Minrah really didn't have an exit strategy beyond running. Wow.

Yeah, that's what blew my mind the most :smallconfused: I understood them not doing anything but running before, but they definitely have the rounds now to wind walk etc given that they waited until TE was all the way out of sight.


It's a tradeoff. Greyview probably has some magic resistance, so if Durkon casts Silence on her, there's a risk that the spell fails, and then Greyview has a turn to raise the alarm. If he casts it on the are, the spell will succeed.

Casting it on a fixed point in the air would have meant Greyview could simply move 20ft and then howl unimpeded. In other words, not a great plan.

[pendell]

I don't agree with what Durkon did, but at the end of the day Durkon's true boss is Thor, not Roy.

If he can't obey his party leader, he can form his own adventuring party and do what he likes. Thor may be his ultimate boss, but while he's in a party he has to play by the party rules, including taking the orders of the party leader.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Huh. Missed that. Regardless, they know where he is, which is still something they don't have with the Order.

Because he's been painting doors.
Not every time. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html)
And they know the Order is around here and most importantly, that the Order doesn't want them to succeed.

Why not? Redcloak, of course, has the advantage of not needing a Bluff check. And also has a direct stake in finding the right door while the MitD has no stake in it at all, of course.
Because Xykon doesn't want to overthink things. An ennemy appears at the same time as a problem, absent a reason to suspect otherwise, ennemy action is the assumed cause of the problem.

[SlashDash]

Yes, the door is marked with an X. Yes, it's possible monsters are still inside.
It still doesn't mean they automatically realize what's going on.
First, didn't Oona say they are still leaving monsters behind so that her people can still have food and such?


Second, it could be a mark made by mistake or that the monster isn't the only one who marks doors. We saw him do it once.
In fact, when we saw him do it, he asked for permission. Therefore, it's likely that other people marked doors before that.

So even if team evil suspect things, it's more likely they will suspect each other in general, not the monster in particular.

Heck, they could even suspect that Durkon was running around marking doors for all they know.

To be honest, I think that would have been my way of thinking.
Next time you go door hunting, go over each door already marked.
If they are empty, it would probably take just a couple of minutes. If there are monsters there, might as well go at that particular door. It's as random as anything juts in case Durkon did that on purpose for them.

[Metastachydium]

No - only familiars have an empathic link like that. Animal Companions need to be handled like any other animal; worgs are more intelligent and can communicate via speech, but the Silence is stopping that. Oona won't have any way of detecting danger from Greyview mentally.


I wasn't talking about an empathic link of any sort, though. Real world animals can convey such messages just fine, and Greyview's intelligence is more of the human sort. He has an expressive face and can use any number of gestures which Oona, who knows him well, will understand well enough withoutresorting to some kind of telepathy.

[Psyren]

If he can't obey his party leader, he can form his own adventuring party and do what he likes. Thor may be his ultimate boss, but while he's in a party he has to play by the party rules, including taking the orders of the party leader.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Technically, he did follow Roy's orders :smalltongue: letter, not spirit, but still.



So even if team evil suspect things, it's more likely they will suspect each other in general, not the monster in particular.


That's a possibility.


I wasn't talking about an empathic link of any sort, though. Real world animals can convey such messages just fine, and Greyview's intelligence is more of the human sort. He has an expressive face and can use any number of gestures which Oona, who knows him well, will understand well enough withoutresorting to some kind of telepathy.

Sure, but by the time he's close enough to Oona for that to matter, the Silence would have done its job of delaying the alarm further.

[Peelee]

Not every time. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html)
Never claimed otherwise.

And they know the Order is around here and most importantly, that the Order doesn't want them to succeed.
Yes, and the Order is an unknown distance away and in an unknown location. The MitD is neither of these.

Because Xykon doesn't want to overthink things.
What's to overthink? There are X options. Eliminating Y of them is fast and simple. Plus, it's not like Xykon and Redcloak completely trust Team Evil right now regardless.

[Ghosty]

Technically, he did follow Roy's orders :smalltongue: letter, not spirit, but still....

He is pretty much the epitome of Lawful... So much so, I'd expect him to become whatever the Valhalla equivalent of a Deva is, upon his final death.

As distrusting of each other as X and RC have become, it's not that surprising if each of them were suspecting each other, something in the Bugbear village, or the Order, before they consider the MITD messing with them.

Heck, they may think it's Serini. Depends on what they know about her final disposition, and what covers her section in that diary.

[Metastachydium]

Sure, but by the time he's close enough to Oona for that to matter, the Silence would have done its job of delaying the alarm further.

Quite on the contrary. Oona would still be able to tell that he wants them to follow him, while the effect of the silence spell would make it abundantly clear why he wants them to do so.

[Cazero]

Because he's been painting doors.
Let's say you're police people and are called on a crime scene. At first, do you :
1) check for clues, or
2) ask your partner if he did done it?

[Peelee]

Let's say you're police people and are called on a crime scene. At first, do you :
1) check for clues, or
2) ask your partner if he did done it?

If the crime was someone killed by a gun and my partner had been in that area shooting their gun beforehand, then probably go for #2 right off the bat.

[Psyren]

Quite on the contrary. Oona would still be able to tell that he wants them to follow him, while the effect of the silence spell would make it abundantly clear why he wants them to do so.

...You realize Team Evil is out of sight already right? Greyview has to catch up to them first before Oona can see him, giving Durkon and Minrah more time to escape, and therefore the second-level spell was very beneficial. I genuinely don't understand where the disconnect is coming from.

[Fyraltari]

Never claimed otherwise.
So he's not particularly suspect, then?


Yes, and the Order is an unknown distance away and in an unknown location. The MitD is neither of these.
Durkon and Minrah were in the village two minutes ago!



What's to overthink? There are X options. Eliminating Y of them is fast and simple. Plus, it's not like Xykon and Redcloak completely trust Team Evil right now regardless.
:xykon: I thought we cleared that one!
:redcloak: I don't understand, it was marked!
:xykon: Do you think these dwarves added some crosses on the doors before coming up?
:redcloak: Probably. Although...
:xykon: Although what?
:redcloak: Myabe it's the indecisive goofball, with no attention span who's never taken a decision in his life and thinks we are his friend who's trying to delay us even though he stands to gain nothing from that?
:xykon: ...
:redcloak: ...
:xykon: ...
:redcloak: It's probably the dwarves.

[Peelee]

So he's not particularly suspect, then?
...he is, though? Doors have been painted. The people in charge of painting the doors are suspect. And two of them know it wasn't them (albeit they don't know it wasn't each other).

Also, the dwarves notably didn't have any paint, it's probably easy to tell that the paint is dry and was not put on just beforehand, and the dwarves have no spells to magically make the doors appear painted.

Like, sure, you could complicate it a lot if you wanted to. You could also simplify it a lot if you wanted to. So lengthy hypothetical conversations in your favor do little to sway me.

[Sapphire Guard]

It seems unlikely they're clearing every monster in every dungeon. Getting into battle in itself wouldn't be much of a giveaway.

[Metastachydium]

...You realize Team Evil is out of sight already right? Greyview has to catch up to them first before Oona can see him, giving Durkon and Minrah more time to escape, and therefore the second-level spell was very beneficial. I genuinely don't understand where the disconnect is coming from.

Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. I agree that the silence spell was a clever move on Team Cleric's part and it will delay the alarm. What I originally responded to was a post hypothesizing about how Team Evil won't understand why Greyview ran after them and how they will just stand there squandering time on trying to talk. I disagree with that position.

[137beth]

Ah, good, Durkon can still come up with a joke in the last panel. But the dwarves are running away before they find out that Xykon and Redcloak have been tricked about which dungeons they cleared.

[Hiro Quester]

I love the detail in the second-last panel of Minrah stowing her hammer by putting it behind her back, where it disappears from view and from concern. Just like in video games when a character draws/stows a weapon by reaching behind their back.

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if this is where Durkon and Minrah get picked off by darts from invisible... foes? parties unknown?

[Fyraltari]

If the crime was someone killed by a gun and my partner had been in that area shooting their gun beforehand, then probably go for #2 right off the bat.
And if the crime had been committed at the shooting range you and your partner regularly go to and that around that time a third party was seen stealing from the register, would you still start by asking your partner if he'd murdered the clerk?

...he is, though? Doors have been painted. The people in charge of painting the doors are suspect. And two of them know it wasn't them (albeit they don't know it wasn't each other).
The people with access to the paintbucket actually, which is pretty much everybody in the village.


Also, the dwarves notably didn't have any paint, it's probably easy to tell that the paint is dry and was not put on just beforehand, and the dwarves have no spells to magically make the doors appear painted.
Doesn't their elf wizard friend have one though?


Like, sure, you could complicate it a lot if you wanted to. You could also simplify it a lot if you wanted to. So lengthy hypothetical conversations in your favor do little to sway me.
Seriously, the MitD is the least suspect person for miles.

[WanderingMist]

The MitD isn't with them, he's (presumably) still at the village right now.
Why would they suspect him? Do you think they'll ask Redcloak whether he did it too?
Xykon would probably suspect that he's been stupid and painting the wrong doors when they leave the caves.

[Peelee]

And if the crime had been committed at the shooting range you and your partner regularly go to and that around that time a third party was seen stealing from the register, would you still start by asking your partner if he'd murdered the clerk?
Yes, but calling this a metaphorical shooting range is really stretching.

The people with access to the paintbucket actually, which is pretty much everybody in the village.
They are setting backdrop. The characters all know they're in a comic, after all.

Seriously, the MitD is the least suspect person for miles.
Yep, nothing suspicious, nope, nossirree (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html).

[Metastachydium]

Seriously, the MitD is the least suspect person for miles.

While I tend to agree that the presence of the Order at somewhere around the Tomb is a very convenient explanation for how some doors could be marked when they should not have been, just how suspect the Monster is greatly depends on whether anyone was paying attention when he repeatedly babbled and at a point even sang about how much he loves O-Chul.

[bunsen_h]

Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm) can be cast on a creature, object, or point in space. Usually you want one of the last two options because there's no will save to overcome it that way. Durkon however, chose the more difficult first option because then, the spell sticks to Greyview and will keep him quiet all the way until he can reach his allies. This was a reasonable tactic since worgs have weak will saves.

It continues after he reaches his allies.

"What's that, Lassie? You say that the Dwarves fell down into the stone?"


From this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm new creatures entering the Silence field around Greyview, get a Will save and Spell Resistance, if applicable, against the effects.

That's not how I interpret it. I think it's saying that there would be a Will save and Spell Resistance if it were cast on a person, not that those come into effect when a person comes into the range of a Silence field.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but calling this a metaphorical shooting range is really stretching.
Is it? If painting is shooting, then a place where several people have painted might as well be a shooting range.


They are setting backdrop. The characters all know they're in a comic, after all.
Yeah, I'm sure none of the bugbears have anything going on. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html)

Yep, nothing suspicious, nope, nossirree (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html).
Point. Yet Oona is explictly going along with this to insure Team Evil doesn't kill too many monsters, so she has a vested interest in stopping TE from looking behind too many doors. The Order is more suspect than the Mitd, Xykon and Redcloak ar emore suspect thant the MITD to each other, the bugbears are more suspect than the Mitd. I think the only ones behind him are the roaches.

[KorvinStarmast]

If he can't obey his party leader, he can form his own adventuring party and do what he likes. Thor may be his ultimate boss, but while he's in a party he has to play by the party rules, including taking the orders of the party leader.

Respectfully,

Brian P. The entire last book charted how loyal the Order was to Durkon as they tried to get him back to being Durkon (from being Durkula). Durkon abandoning the Order at this point (as opposed to acting on his own initiative because he's afraid that a dead Redcloak renders Thor's plan moot) is in conflict with his character since about... OoTS_1. No sale.
I wonder if this is where Durkon and Minrah get picked off by darts from invisible... foes? parties unknown? While an intriguing prospect, the two mystery beings were last 'seen' (1) invisibly avoiding notice and (2) moving away from the Rift area. Dragging Minrah and Durkon up into the air while two high level casters (one of them for sure with True Sight) are actively seeking those two dwarves flies in the face of that (unseen) duo's desire to avoid notice. So I'll bet against.

Xykon would probably suspect that he's been stupid and painting the wrong doors when they leave the caves. Betting against Xykon thinking of himself as stupid. Ever. Supreme self-confidence, and arrogance, is one of his trademark personality features.

[Peelee]

Is it? If painting is shooting, then a place where several people have painted might as well be a shooting range.
Huge inaccuracies aside... fine, let's go with that. And then we can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue, your partner has questionable reports in their file, and your partner was shooting at the range within the same time frame that the victim died.

I would not call the partner "the least suspect person for miles" under those circumstances.


Yeah, I'm sure none of the bugbears have anything going on. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html)
Xykon doesn't know about that, so they're set dressing to Xykon. Redcloak does know about that, but likely rules the bugbears out. So we're right back to "not the village bugbears".

Point. Yet Oona is explictly going along with this to insure Team Evil doesn't kill too many monsters, so she has a vested interest in stopping TE from looking behind too many doors. The Order is more suspect than the Mitd, Xykon and Redcloak ar emore suspect thant the MITD to each other, the bugbears are more suspect than the Mitd. I think the only ones behind him are the roaches.

Oona says the monsters regen, and there are a lot of doors. Oona has no vested interest in stopping them - at least, none that we and they have seen. She has only ever been proactively helpful.

[Jason]

Ya know, I can't help but wonder what the tracks inside the cave were that Oona had found.

Oona didn't find any tracks inside the door. When Xykon said "she found a trail," he was referring to the trail to the door left by Durkon and Minrah as a distraction, not any new trail Oona found inside.

[Peelee]

Oona didn't find any tracks inside the door. When Xykon said "she found a trail," he was referring to the trail to the door left by Durkon and Minrah as a distraction, not any new trail Oona found inside.

That's a definite reading I hadn't considered, but I'm not sure.

[Worldsong]

Betting against Xykon thinking of himself as stupid. Ever. Supreme self-confidence, and arrogance, is one of his trademark personality features.

I think Wandering meant that Xykon would assume MitD accidentally painted the wrong doors due to him thinking MitD is stupid.

Which still would mean it's MitD's fault but he wouldn't be accused of intentional misdirection.

[locksmith of lo]

won't silence be really disruptive if greyview ran into range of the spellcasters in the middle a big fight? :smallbiggrin:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

He did sniff them out!

[deltamire]

People are saying (rightly) that Roy's going to blow multiple gaskets when they get back, but one thing I'll be interested in seeing is whether or not that trauma he's got regarding getting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html) people killed on his watch (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html) crops back up. I'm not expecting much of it - we aired a lot of Roy's dirty laundry last book - on account of the dwarves being gone for a far shorter amount of time and the fact that the Order could very easily have been watching most of the conflict, but it could really be interesting to see, especially after all the grief they went through to get Durkon back not 100 pages ago. The fact that Durkon willingly went around his orders (whether or not Durkon was correct in that action notwithstanding) could bump up against Roy's older insecurities regarding leadership, but I wouldn't bank on it. I think he's grown past that. Maybe. Hopefully.

[hroþila]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

[Fyraltari]

Huge inaccuracies aside... fine, let's go with that. And then we can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue, your partner has questionable reports in their file, and your partner was shooting at the range within the same time frame that the victim died.
What inacuracies? Also what is « can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue » supposed to be analogous to? The paint? Because I doubt they can tell red paint from red paint and, again, wizard elf (https://dndtools.net/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/prestidigitation--2901/).


I would not call the partner "the least suspect person for miles" under those circumstances.
Certainly less suspect than the guy who was also there and had motive. Seriously they think they know the MiTD, and what they know of him points away from him being willing or able to deceive them.


Xykon doesn't know about that, so they're set dressing to Xykon.
Oona isn’t.

Redcloak does know about that, but likely rules the bugbears out
[Citation needed]


Oona says the monsters regen, and there are a lot of doors. Oona has no vested interest in stopping them - at least, none that we and they have seen. She has only ever been proactively helpful.
No she said they come back after a while. Some forumites assume it’s magical, but it might not be. In the same strip she says she only comes with to make sure TE doesn’t kill too many monsters. She’s worried about overhunting. It’d make sense to suspect her of trying to hide some monsters to make sure her tribe is still fed after TE has left.

[Metastachydium]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

I mean, Xykon would not have to be half the mastermind some take him for to figure out where the Monster's true loyalties lie (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html).

[hroþila]

No she said they come back after a while. Some forumites assume it’s magical, but it might not be. In the same strip she says she only comes with to make sure TE doesn’t kill too many monsters. She’s worried about overhunting. It’d make sense to suspect her of trying to hide some monsters to make sure her tribe is still fed after TE has left.
One point in favour of this is that, if they assume this deception started recently, they could think that Oona only started doing it when they went from clearing one door per day to clearing like six, thus seriously increasing the risk of overhunting.

[Jason]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

It's red paint. It's not an uncommon item. Is Redcloak going to analyze samples in his forensics lab to say "this all came from the same bucket" or something?

It seems much more likely that Redcloak will believe the Order has been here for some time marking doors to sabotage his efforts.

[Lex]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.
Exactly. In order for The Order to be the ones painting the doors, a lot of assumptions have to be made: that they were watching Team Evil long enough to learn that they are marking the doors they entered, that they have paint (and similar enough to the one Team Evil use), that they managed to slip into the village completely unnoticed at least one time.
In the Monster's case, if Redcloack remembers the times he showed to be too friendly with the Order and the paladins (like at Girard's Gate, as it was already posted) it's easy to start seeing him as a suspect.

[Cazero]

Huge inaccuracies aside... fine, let's go with that. And then we can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue, your partner has questionable reports in their file, and your partner was shooting at the range within the same time frame that the victim died.

I would not call the partner "the least suspect person for miles" under those circumstances.
More like your pursuit of a burglar leads you to discover a dead body in the armory, right next to a place where those specific police-issue guns are stored, and half the guns are missing, and you have no idea yet how long ago any of that happened because nobody went there for the last five months. An autopsy can innocent the burglar, but he's still the prime suspect until that's done.

[Metastachydium]

Exactly. In order for The Order to be the ones painting the doors, a lot of assumptions have to be made: that they were watching Team Evil long enough to learn that they are marking the doors they entered, that they have paint (and similar enough to the one Team Evil use), that they managed to slip into the village completely unnoticed at least one time.

They were watching Team Evil long enough to know (through the paladins) and if Durkon could just pop out of thin air in the village then last item on your list is sounds like a plausible assumption that Redcloak could make as well as something they could have done.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think Wandering meant that Xykon would assume MitD accidentally painted the wrong doors due to him thinking MitD is stupid. OK.

I mean, Xykon would not have to be half the mastermind some take him for to figure out where the Monster's true loyalties lie (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html). Indeed.


One point in favour of this is that, if they assume this deception started recently, they could think that Oona only started doing it when they went from clearing one door per day to clearing like six, thus seriously increasing the risk of overhunting. Doubly plausible with Oona being some kind of Ranger.

[hroþila]

It's red paint.
All red! (https://www.icolorpalette.com/download/shades/ef3340_color_shades.jpg)

It's not necessarily that easy to get the same colour with pre-industrial pigments (without magic*).

*yes, magic is available, but it's an additional assumption that has to be made on top of all the others

[Fyraltari]

Exactly. In order for The Order to be the ones painting the doors, a lot of assumptions have to be made: that they were watching Team Evil long enough to learn that they are marking the doors they entered, that they have paint (and similar enough to the one Team Evil use), that they managed to slip into the village completely unnoticed at least one time.
In the Monster's case, if Redcloack remembers the times he showed to be too friendly with the Order and the paladins (like at Girard's Gate, as it was already posted) it's easy to start seeing him as a suspect.
They have known MiTD to be friendly with O-Chul since Azure City. If they’d have thought he was capable of turning against them, they’d have done something a long time ago. They think he’s a harmless doofus.

All red! (https://www.icolorpalette.com/download/shades/ef3340_color_shades.jpg)

It's not necessarily that easy to get the same colour with pre-industrial pigments (without magic*).

*yes, magic is available, but it's an additional assumption that has to be made on top of all the others
Prestidigitation (linked to upthread) is a zeroth level spell two members of the order have access to. Okay they probably forgot Elan existed but they remember V.

[Psyren]

Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. I agree that the silence spell was a clever move on Team Cleric's part and it will delay the alarm. What I originally responded to was a post hypothesizing about how Team Evil won't understand why Greyview ran after them and how they will just stand there squandering time on trying to talk. I disagree with that position.

Don't know who you were replying to then because I never said that.



That's not how I interpret it. I think it's saying that there would be a Will save and Spell Resistance if it were cast on a person, not that those come into effect when a person comes into the range of a Silence field.

Agreed.


It continues after he reaches his allies.

"What's that, Lassie? You say that the Dwarves fell down into the stone?"

Sure, but as only clerics can cast it, Redcloak would suss out what happened pretty much instantly.

[Peelee]

What inacuracies?
"Place where shots were fired" is not in any way analogous to "shooting range".

Also what is « can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue » supposed to be analogous to? The paint? Because I doubt they can tell red paint from red paint and, again, wizard elf (https://dndtools.net/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/prestidigitation--2901/).
Yes, I picked "police issue gun" for a reason. It's not like those are only made for police and only police carry them and civilians can't. It's like a cop car - it's just what they use. However, if a Crown Vic ran over a guy and your partner was on that street and the car is a little beat up, yeah, it's time to ask a couple of questions.

Certainly less suspect than the guy who was also there and had motive. Seriously they think they know the MiTD, and what they know of him points away from him being willing or able to deceive them.
Need I link to that strip again?

Oona isn’t.
Again, Oona has only ever been proactively helpful as far as we and they can tell.

I'm not saying that they are immediately going to zero in on MitD like hawks and suss out what has been happening. But you seem to be insisting that they're just going to bury their heads in the sand and I don't buy that for a second.

[Jason]

That's a definite reading I hadn't considered, but I'm not sure.
If she had found a new trail inside the door that was not left by Durkon and Minrah (since they never actually went in) she should be able to tell that it's a different trail. She had no problem discerning between tracks left by Durkon and Minrah when following their actual trail to the door.

[Metastachydium]

Don't know who you were replying to then because I never said that.


WindStruck on page 2.

[hewhosaysfish]

Sure, but as only clerics can cast it, Redcloak would suss out what happened pretty much instantly.

I am smiling as I imagine Redcloak trying to explain it to Xykon (and Oona) while all of them are still inside the area of Silence, flailing his arms with ever-increasing exasperation.

[Ghosty]

...That's not how I interpret it. I think it's saying that there would be a Will save and Spell Resistance if it were cast on a person, not that those come into effect when a person comes into the range of a Silence field.

Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.

[Jason]

All red! (https://www.icolorpalette.com/download/shades/ef3340_color_shades.jpg)

It's not necessarily that easy to get the same colour with pre-industrial pigments (without magic*).

*yes, magic is available, but it's an additional assumption that has to be made on top of all the others
I agree. In fact, because of the problems you're talking about it is unlikely all the marked doors are exactly the same shade of red even with members of Team Evil having made all the marks, because each time they mix up a new bucket of paint it will be a slightly different shade, and the paint is unlikely to be all one uniform shade even in each individual bucket.

Put simply, there's no way for Redcloak to tell that all of the marks were made with the same paint, which was my original point.

[Fyraltari]

"Place where shots were fired" is not in any way analogous to "shooting range".
If you have another example of a place where half a dozen people regularly come to shoot guns, I’ll take it.


Yes, I picked "police issue gun" for a reason. It's not like those are only made for police and only police carry them and civilians can't. It's like a cop car - it's just what they use. However, if a Crown Vic ran over a guy and your partner was on that street and the car is a little beat up, yeah, it's time to ask a couple of questions.
Completely ignoring the guy who had motive to kill the victim and access to the same kind of car?


Need I link to that strip again?
The one where they ignore the MiTD’s actual reasoning to focus on their power games? Because I think Xykon’s take-away from that was « I re-asserted dominance over that nerd » and Redcloak’s « **** that **** corpse-man » not « Hmm, the idiot in the Dark is acting rather strange. Is he turning against us? »


Again, Oona has only ever been proactively helpful as far as we and they can tell.
She literally told them that she only helped them to make sure they don’t kill all the monsters.

[quite]I'm not saying that they are immediately going to zero in on MitD like hawks and suss out what has been happening. But you seem to be insisting that they're just going to bury their heads in the sand and I don't buy that for a second.[/QUOTE]
No. I responded to Psyren stating that « this will tip them off about MiTD pretty quickly » which, as far as my understanding of English goes is exactly equivalent to « immediately zero in on MitD ». I don’t think it will, because it is far more logical to suspect the order until given any reason otherwise. And if they somehow rule that out, then the bugbears are still a more likely suspect than Monster-san.

« Just bury their head in the sand » is a gross mischaracterization if my position. Are we on the same page?

[Peelee]

« Just bury their head in the sand » is a gross mischaracterization if my position. Are we on the same page?

You claimed that literally every person in the village is more suspicious than the monster who acted suspiciously and had been doing most of the painting.

If that's not burying their heads in the sand, I don't know what is.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Great comic again! Thank you Giant!

As for the discussion as to whom Team Evil will suspect of sabotage painting: if there were other people in the valley, wouldn't Greyview have smelled them? How long would scent last in that environment?

[Fyraltari]

You claimed that literally every person in the village is more suspicious than the monster who acted suspiciously and had been doing most of the painting.
Not most. He did it at least once and the wording implied it was the first time.
Because everybody else has a better motive.

If that's not burying their heads in the sand, I don't know what is.
That'd be "Heh, that door shouldn't have been marked. Bah, who cares."

[bunsen_h]

won't silence be really disruptive if greyview ran into range of the spellcasters in the middle a big fight? :smallbiggrin:

That's a very good point.


Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.

My interpretation is that all of those saves apply if the spell is being cast on a person, but not if a person is merely within the area of effect of a Silence spell. I'm not convinced that any of these saves etc. allow one to make noise within a sound-dead area.

[Quartz]

I wonder, is Durkon's Wind Walk still active?

[Peelee]

Not most. He did it at least once and the wording implied it was the first time.
And Redcloak's math suggests that he has been painting the doors most of the time after (unless he marked an enormous number of doors that one time)

Because everybody else has a better motive.
No, they don't. We know practically nothing whatsoever about them, other than that they like the monsters for resources and the monsters always return. Again, this is practically the definition of burying their heads in the sand.

ETA:
That'd be "Heh, that door shouldn't have been marked. Bah, who cares."

That's burying their heads in the sand about what is happening. You are claiming they are going to bury their heads in the sand about who is doing it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder, is Durkon's Wind Walk still active? I'd like to answer this, but after looking at the implementation on the page and not feeling very 3.5e savvy, I'm not sure if it has ended or not.

[Zancloufer]

Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.

The silence spell does not allow a saving throw or spell resistance if it cast on an unattended object or point in space. It only allows SR/Saves if cast on an unwilling creature or item in the direct possession of an unwilling creature. The save/SR isn't to avoid the effect of silence, merely avoid having the spell cast upon someone in the first place.

Also silence prevents casting of spells with spoken components so unless Red Cloak has a silent dispel prepared, or Xylon has both silent spell and a non-epic dispel known they actually can't remove the effect of silence from within it.

[Ramza00]

Was already thinking of a wolf animal companion build, and then I get wholesome Greyview content! :smallbiggrin:

[Jason]

Ignore this post. I was thinking of something else when I wrote it..

[Fyraltari]

And Redcloak's math suggests that he has been painting the doors most of the time after (unless he marked an enormous number of doors that one time)
No, it suggests he has done it again, not that he did it the most.


No, they don't. We know practically nothing whatsoever about them, other than that they like the monsters for resources and the monsters always return.
Which is a better motive than MitD’s got. And, Team Evil has known them for less long than MitD, who they (think they) know to be incapable of betraying them. Who is more likely to do you dirty? The guy you met two months ago who straight-up told you he’ll only help as long as it’s not inconvenient or the guy who has considered you their only friend for the last 3 years and thinks scrabble tiles are a form of currency?

Again, this is practically the definition of burying their heads in the sand.
I find your insistance on reducing my position to a single intenable sentence that you can more easily dismiss to be rude, and I you don’t stop, I am done with this conversation.

[Doug Lampert]

I was wondering where Greyview went.

Also, I see Durkon likes to prep all these super situational spells in the morning. :P

Um, silence is basically a flat NOPE to almost all casters in close quarters (like many places inside a dungeon), and it's only level 2. How many useful spells have no verbal component?

IMAO it's part of a standard cleric loadout for combat. If you want to call it situational, then the situation it's good for is "we're fighting a group or a caster or both in a situation where the enemy is unable or unwilling to run out of the radius of the spell", given that once you're in melee, leaving the area of the spell provokes, this is so common that a high level cleric ought to consider carrying a wand for it.

Then there are ALSO the uses for stealth and concealment, which are legion.

[Doug Lampert]

Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.

It's explicitly NONE for the saving throw when cast on an object. So, yes, casting on a floor tile does in fact completely negate the real target of the spell's high saving throws. That's in the text "Will negates; see text or none (object)".

[Lex]

They were watching Team Evil long enough to know (through the paladins) and if Durkon could just pop out of thin air in the village then last item on your list is sounds like a plausible assumption that Redcloak could make as well as something they could have done.To be fair, Redcloack doesn't know they were spied by the paladins.


They have known MiTD to be friendly with O-Chul since Azure City. If they’d have thought he was capable of turning against them, they’d have done something a long time ago. They think he’s a harmless doofus.

Prestidigitation (linked to upthread) is a zeroth level spell two members of the order have access to. Okay they probably forgot Elan existed but they remember V.
At that time they didn't have any motive to suspect the Monster could turn against them, but with time all his little suspicious behaviours start to add up.

[Theshipening]

Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.

Well yes, that’s the point, neutralize a spellcaster. It’s not like it’s a be-all-end-all, the spellcaster can just move a bit to the side and be fine. Unless you think that Durkon, Durkula (Arguably, hard to tell if the spell affected him), Minrah, and Gontor (all clerics) all failed their will saves against the Silence spell ?

[KorvinStarmast]

At that time they didn't have any motive to suspect the Monster could turn against them, but with time all his little suspicious behaviours start to add up. I am reminded, by your post, of the movie The Usual Suspects and for how long who Keyser Söze was remained a mystery even to the cast. (There was a story going around a few years back that Gabriel Byrne was convinced that Keyser Söze was his character, in the end).

[Gallowglass]

Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.

Yes. Yes that, uh, is the common tactic. That's exactly how the spell is used.

[Psyren]

Which is a better motive than MitD’s got. And, Team Evil has known them for less long than MitD, who they (think they) know to be incapable of betraying them. Who is more likely to do you dirty? The guy you met two months ago who straight-up told you he’ll only help as long as it’s not inconvenient or the guy who has considered you their only friend for the last 3 years and thinks scrabble tiles are a form of currency?


If it was the first instance of weirdness around MitD I'd agree with you. But between this, O-Chul's improbable escape, and his insistence on them not taking out the Order in the desert only to have them show up in the North Pole, I'd say it's reasonable for Redcloak at least to start being suspicious.

[Jason]

Yes. Yes that, uh, is the common tactic. That's exactly how the spell is used.

Yep, sorry. Forgot how silence 3.5 works for a minute there. My mistake.

[Jaziggy]

So i understand that though Durkon is older than Roy, he's at roughly the same age state (young adult) as him. I've never thought about him calling Roy "lad" before, does he see him as a younger peer or closer to whatever a 20-something dwarf would be? Obviously he looks up to Roy as a leader and treats him as an adult and everything, i'm just curious now that i've noticed it.

I think Durkon is the 'party mom'. His paternal feelings towards Roy aren't surprising, even though he thinks of Roy as the strategic/official leader of the group.

[Psyren]

Note that casting it on an object/floor tile/air molecule/etc isn't an auto-win vs. casters either. All they have to do is walk out of it and then cast.

To get a mobile Silence you have to put it directly on the creature, causing the save/SR to apply.

Other useful tactics with Silence include disabling an enemy's bardic music buffs, and hard-countering very dangerous sonic spells like Blasphemy or Wail of the Banshee.

[Metastachydium]

To be fair, Redcloack doesn't know they were spied by the paladins.


Indeed. He does know, however, that the 1) the Order is somewhere close by and 2) he has very good reason to suspect that they were spied on, since Durkon managed to find him at a surprisingly opportune moment when Xykon was not around.
I brought up the paladins mostly to point out that Redcloak would even be right in formulating such a theory, because it was not only possible but also done.


Um, silence is basically a flat NOPE to almost all casters in close quarters (like many places inside a dungeon), and it's only level 2. How many useful spells have no verbal component?


I checked it out in the online SRD out of curiosity, and I only found four spells with no verbal component (Gaseous Form, Mislead, Hide from Animals and Glibness) on all spell lists.

[gatemansgc]

Well, if nothing else it appears Durkon realised he just catastrophically messed things up for the rest of the party by attempting to carry out his god's wishes...

but somehow not enough to make this book short, the giant promised us this would be around as long as the other books so the finale is still a while away!

so somehow the final confrontation won't happen yet!

[Jaziggy]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

I agree with this. I think the baddies would pin the paint on MitD, or at least not totally overlook it as a possibility. It's the same paint, they asked him to do it, and they think of him as a screw-up.

What would surprise me is if they assumed he had intentionally painted the door. It's much easier for them to assume the guy they think of as a screw-up, well, screwed up.

It's the kind of thing that might add some suspicion of his loyalty into the minds of Xykon and RC, but unless MitD simply admits to his motivations, it is unlikely to cause a rupture in their alliance.

[Baine]

I'm a bit confused. Why would Team Evil automatically know it's the exact same paint? It's paint. Red is red. Not that hard to reproduce if you're an adventuring party trying to foil Team Evil's plans.

[WanderingMist]

Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.

But that interpretation doesn't make sense, because Durkon couldn't talk within the radius of the spell either, he's the one who cast it in the first place, there's no reason to think he wouldn't be unwilling to succumb to its effects, and I'm pretty sure clerics have naturally high Will saves.

[Jaziggy]

I'm a bit confused. Why would Team Evil automatically know it's the exact same paint? It's paint. Red is red. Not that hard to reproduce if you're an adventuring party trying to foil Team Evil's plans.

Adventurers are not typically wandering around the landscape with paint. I think if MitD says 'no definitely wasn't me, was probably those adventurers' the baddies would believe it. I think if he says 'oh- yeah I must have painted the wrong door lol my bad!' the baddies would believe it. What they won't do is jump to the conclusion the MitD did it and that he was doing it in order to assist the Order/the cause of Good.

[Gnoman]

Paint is a pretty reasonable thing for adventuring parties to be carrying around, honestly. If your profession routinely sends you into unmapped ruins you don't care about desecrating, paint is a great way to show where you've been!

[Thermophille]

I think Redcloak is the only one likely to suspect MitD. He's more perceptive, and has likely caught onto at least some of MitD's suspicious activities (friendship with O-Chull for example).

I think it's likely that Redcloak raises the possibility that MitD painted additional doors, and Xykon immediately shoots the possibility down as ridiculous, and points to the obvious group of adventurers on their doorstep.

[Jason]

Note that casting it on an object/floor tile/air molecule/etc isn't an auto-win vs. casters either. All they have to do is walk out of it and then cast.

To get a mobile Silence you have to put it directly on the creature, causing the save/SR to apply.

Other useful tactics with Silence include disabling an enemy's bardic music buffs, and hard-countering very dangerous sonic spells like Blasphemy or Wail of the Banshee.

A counter is the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

[Olinser]

It's interesting to me that this is actually a confirmation that Greyview can actually SPEAK Common. We'd only seen him really talking to Oona and MiTD before, I was actually kind of under the impression that he could only be understood by those 2 and that was a clue to MiTD's nature.

But now he's talking to Dwarves :(


Also, in before this door is actually the right one (or alternately, that NO DOOR was correct until the destruction of the Kraagor guardian statute).

Although at this point I still think that there is some kind of combination lock on the Gate - it's not about an individual door, it's about a specific combination of doors, opening in sequence, that gets you to the Gate.

[Psyren]

A counter is the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

While this is true, prepared casters like Redcloak have to apply that to their spells in advance (or use a rod.) So movement is the more common strategy to beat it.


I think Redcloak is the only one likely to suspect MitD. He's more perceptive, and has likely caught onto at least some of MitD's suspicious activities (friendship with O-Chull for example).

I think it's likely that Redcloak raises the possibility that MitD painted additional doors, and Xykon immediately shoots the possibility down as ridiculous, and points to the obvious group of adventurers on their doorstep.

While this is plausible, we're also at or near the story's final act. MitD's duplicity has to surface eventually, so that could start to germinate now.

[Wraithfighter]

A counter is the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

...and you know what? I'd bet that Xykon has access to that, either through a feat or a magic item.

Xykon's combat strategy is blunt, but effective. He favors brute force, highly-flashy attacks absolutely... but also knows Superb Dispelling, an epic spell that's not exactly simple to acquire and, well, isn't flashy. It just means that, if Xykon does go up against an enemy that can protect themselves from his major array of devastating spells, he can open it all up with a single spell, and then get back to spamming Energy Drain.

And to paraphrase one of Xykon's more impressive speeches (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)? If power is something that you can lose by being next to someone targeted by a 2nd level Cleric spell, than it's not something you had in the first place. Xykon's build is all about two things: Overkilling things, and removing barriers that might prevent him from overkilling things. Silent Spell is absolutely something he'd take to cover more bases.

[Jason]

It's interesting to me that this is actually a confirmation that Greyview can actually SPEAK Common. We'd only seen him really talking to Oona and MiTD before, I was actually kind of under the impression that he could only be understood by those 2 and that was a clue to MiTD's nature.

But now he's talking to Dwarves :(

All worgs speak Worg, and the Monster Manual notes that some also speak Common and Goblin.

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?

So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast a Silent version of his maximised Dispel Magic and also dispels the "Mansion" they've been unknowingly delving within revealing the real Tomb of Kraagor?

Is that possible?

Its just those invisible servitors might be part of that spell and that's why they think everything is about to end?

[Thermophille]

Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?

So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast a Silent version of his maximised Dispel Magic and also dispels the "Mansion" they've been unknowingly delving within revealing the real Tomb of Kraagor?

Is that possible?

Its just those invisible servitors might be part of that spell and that's why they think everything is about to end?

Xykon's only dispelling is an epic-levelled spell, and I doubt Redcloak prepared it on a dungeon-delving day.

That also seems unlikely narratively, so I'm going to say this is an unlikely event.

[Hopeless]

Xykon's only dispelling is an epic-levelled spell, and I doubt Redcloak prepared it on a dungeon-delving day.

That also seems unlikely narratively, so I'm going to say this is an unlikely event.

Yes it just struck me after reading this episode that it could explain what's going on and it is fitting given its Serini whose behind this.

[Aegeus]

Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?

So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast a Silent version of his maximised Dispel Magic and also dispels the "Mansion" they've been unknowingly delving within revealing the real Tomb of Kraagor?

Is that possible?

Its just those invisible servitors might be part of that spell and that's why they think everything is about to end?
No, a seventh-level wizard spell is not capable of creating a giant monster maze that can challenge epic-level sorcerers.

More specifically, Mordy's Magnificent Mansion creates a visible extradimensional portal (while the canyon appears to have no limits on how you fly or walk into it), it has a limited volume (much less than the canyon), and it has no combat power whatsoever. Unseen servants are specifically not capable of making attacks, and can't even exert much force. About the only way to hurt someone with them is to trigger a pre-existing trap. They're also mindless, meaning they couldn't have made conversation like the invisible creatures did.

Also, Serini isn't a caster. While she probably hired some mages to help construct the tomb, she's not a caster herself, which limits the tools she would have had available. If there's any trickery going on here, I expect it's a mundane sort of trickery - the gate being in an unexpected location, or a secret hidden within the dungeon crawls - rather than magically faking the whole dungeon.

[Sylian]

If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?

[Thermophille]

On the topic of the residents of the canyon being conjured, illusions, ect; Oona was able to make magic items from the parts of the monsters there, and items with gp values can't be conjured as a rule.

Because of this, we can infer that the monsters are real, though how the tomb is able to attract them is unknown.

[Toper]

I'm hoping we get a comic's worth of failure to communicate among Team Evil as Greyview runs around...

[Psyren]

If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?

Given the lengths Thor is willing to go to to argue about it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html), I'd say it's a toss-up.

For example, you could argue that them attempting to survive so they can try to carry out Thor's orders later is the most honorable thing they could do.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm a bit confused. Why would Team Evil automatically know it's the exact same paint? It's paint. Red is red. Not that hard to reproduce if you're an adventuring party trying to foil Team Evil's plans.

Iron oxide (the usual red pigment up until modern dyes) is amazingly rare.... Well, rust and iron ore and red clay are all amazingly rare some places, like interstellar space.

The binder does matter to both paint texture and color, but yeah, red is not an uncommon paint color because the pigment is so very, very common and consistent. And if we're worrying about problems with getting a consistent binder with medievaloid technology, then we also need to worry about the fact that with the specified medievaloid tech, team evil won't have an airtight seal on their wet paint and will be remixing daily, so if consistent binders are not practical then their paint ALSO will not be consistent day to day.

Paint color is a problem only if we assume that paint color is a problem and that Team Evil is for some reason making their paint by some super-unique special formula. If making red paint, both groups should be using similar binders (probably oil based due to tech limitations and a desire for it to stand up to rain) and identical pigments (iron oxide).

[KorvinStarmast]

If making red paint, both groups should be using similar binders (probably oil based due to tech limitations and a desire for it to stand up to rain) and identical pigments (iron oxide). Will we now discuss daily changes in humidity and temperature, and the impact that has on the painting process? 😁 (Your point on mixing I'll second in spades based on a repaint of our living room five years ago)

[Elkad]

Also, I see Durkon likes to prep all these super situational spells in the morning. :P

He's going to meet a person (or maybe a group) that his entire party can't beat in a fight.

No point in loading any offensive spells at all. All movement, defense, and utility, including a near-random selection of stuff that might be useful.

[Fish]

Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).
This would be extremely over-powered in the hands of a high-level caster. Cast silence 15' radius on enemy casters, knowing that you'll be able to beat the Will save. I'm sure I would have noticed if the spell had this kind of effect.

The "everybody gets a save" reading requires some creative squinting. You have to believe that people don't get a save against the effect when the spell is cast on an object, but they do get a save against the effect when it's cast on some other person?

I favor the reading that the target gets a save against being targeted. Like putting a bell on a cat. Once you get the bell on, everyone can hear it ring. Or not hear it, as the case may be.

[Riftwolf]

Adventurers are not typically wandering around the landscape with paint.

I once spent my entire WBL on goats, don't assume adventurers only carry the neccesities.
(Also doesn't Elan have a bucket of red paint?)
(Checking the class thread, it was a jar of jam he was painting himself with.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think Durkon is the 'party mom'. His paternal feelings towards Roy aren't surprising, even though he thinks of Roy as the strategic/official leader of the group.

We should also remember that Durkon is now a parent, which has been reliably proven to do a number on how you view others (especially non-parents).

As for how Team Evil can figure out the paint thing, divination spells are a thing, and low level ones are ripe for inscribing on a scroll since you don't need them that often. But a single yes/no question can often eliminate dozens of possibilities.

"Did adventurers paint these doors?"

"No."

"Okay, no adventurers involved. That means it's one of us."

[Canisius]

I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.

Well, maybe not nothing. Hopefully the seeds of doubt have been planted in RedCloak, perhaps to make a later appearance.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If they had put the spell on any part of the area, as soon as Greyview left the radius he'd be able to just call into the dungeon. As it is, he'll need to get within sight or 20ft instead before they notice him.
:xykon: : "Why the hells are there monsters in this passage? There was an X on the door!"
:redcloak: : "We have to consider the possibility that our enemies have been sabotaging our—wait, why can't I hear myself talking?"
:xykon: : "Were you saying something? Wait, why can't I hear myself talk?"
:redcloak: : "Xykon, can you read lips? I believe somebody has cast a silence spell."
Greyview: arrives
:xykon: : "Why are you still trying to talk, you moron?"
:redcloak: : "Of course, any lip-reading communication would be one way, since you don't have lips..."
Greyview: scratches Xykon to get his attention
:xykon: : "Gah! Finger of Death! ...Why isn't this thing on fire?"
:redcloak: : "I believe the silence spell may be on the wolf."



If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?
Dwarves go to Thor if they die fighting a tree. I don't think mere humans can comprehend the intricacies of dwarven honor.



Tortured analogies comparing X's painted to one guy being shot
The problem with these analogies is that a lot of people got shot, not just one. Team Evil wanted some of them to be shot, but doesn't remember which ones (which is why they shot them). MitD screwed things up by...um...shooting a bunch of people in the leg? Squirting ketchup on people? This isn't a very good analogy.



Who will Team Evil suspect?
I'm on Team They'll Blame the Order First. I won't deny that Redcloak might question whether the Order has been here long enough to inflate the X count slowly enough that they didn't notice and/or remember that MitD hasn't been acting terribly loyal if he gives it more thought, but the Order will definitely be his first thought...and it's plausible enough that Team Evil may not bother with a second thought before it's too late.

[Shining Wrath]

Silence has a 30' radius IIRC. It will not be long before Xykon and the others are in hot pursuit.

The only thing we can hope is that Team Evil ran into something strong enough to delay them.

[Fish]

The only thing we can hope is that Team Evil ran into something strong enough to delay them.
And that isn't affected by silence.

[Baine]

Do you think we'll ever actually see the inside of the caves, or will we just keep getting regaled with tales of how exciting and complex they look?

[bunsen_h]

I wonder, is Durkon's Wind Walk still active?

It would have been very poor planning to have headed down for this little discussion just as the spell was ending. Its duration is 1 hour/level; how long has it been since Redcloak first saw Durkon, 15 minutes?

[Bilbo Baggins]

My theory is that Durkon has a modified version of Wind Walk that allows it to target more people than usual at the detriment of only allowing a single transformation into wind and back.

Also on an unrelated note, 10 quatloos says that Durkon and Minrah will make their way back to the paladins' cliff only for the rest of the order to be missing.

[Yendor]

It's a stretch for Team Evil to immediately suspect the MitD and not the dwarves they already know were trying to misdirect them.

Incidentally, the Order don't know that the MitD has been marking doors, or even know for sure (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) that Team Evil has been marking doors, because somebody ran off before they could get that info from the paladins. They've been exchanging 25-word Sendings; there's not room for that sort of detail.

[drazen]

Lucky for Durkon and Minrah that they caught Greyview monologuing, however briefly.

[Jacky720]

The problem with these analogies is that a lot of people got shot, not just one. Team Evil wanted some of them to be shot, but doesn't remember which ones (which is why they shot them). MitD screwed things up by...um...shooting a bunch of people in the leg? Squirting ketchup on people? This isn't a very good analogy.
Team Evil has a collection of a few hundred prisoners dungeons, of whom they believe one knows is the location of the Gate. Each night, they interrogate crawl a few prisoners dungeons and then shoot paint them to keep track of them, becuse they're Evil. While the others are heading home, MitD shoots paints a few extra prisoners doors with the same gun paint, which is really crappy and has to be replaced every few nights,* but is of a common model formula, before rejoining them.

When Team Evil uses Speak With Dead on re-enters a corpse dungeon (which they believe to know be the location of two escaping dwarf clerics) to realize some of the corpses doors were not interrogated cleared, do they suspect MitD?

Also, how many people have blue eyes and what do you ask the guard who always lies?

* This clause may be optional as the paint-making methods have not been described and are possibly magical, which would guarantee a more consistent makeup. Actually, a lot of this isn't really important to the analogy.

[Dion]

Do you think we'll ever actually see the inside of the caves, or will we just keep getting regaled with tales of how exciting and complex they look?

Probably. In fact, almost certainly.

[Snails]

Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.

I disagree. There is only one save.

Yes, casting it on the minion or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on works just fine. It forces the enemy caster to move 20 feet, which is usually not a big deal.

The clever cleric has a Ready Action to cast Silence as the enemy begins casting, hoping to spoil a powerful spell.

[unbjorn]

Also on an unrelated note, 10 quatloos says that Durkon and Minrah will make their way back to the paladins' cliff only for the rest of the order to be missing.


High roller! I only bet two on
"the rest of the OOTS has been captured by the unseen duo"

KorvinStarmast (https://forums.giantitp.com/member.php?109395-KorvinStarmast) what are the odds on this now?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

:smalleek: Indeed. It will certainly be interesting to see what Roy's reaction is when this is all done.

[bunsen_h]

So. Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona have gone barrelling into a fight with Big Bad Beasties without buffing themselves. Then suddenly all sound will cut out, taking out most of their casting ability, and a few seconds later Greyview will join them from around a corner..? This may take a little while to untangle.

[PattThe]

Has everyone but Haley, Belkar, and Elan confronted Team Evil on (effectively) their own so far? Roy with the undead dragon, V with Darth V's epic scry and fry, and now Durkon with his negotiation and retreat.

Actually, every assault on Team Evil for brash means has been similar. Roy had the assistance of Belkar's ring of jumping, fought Zykon, died.
Darth V had the assistance of a certain blue boi, fought Xykon, would have died if it weren't for TMITD.
Now Durkon has team dwarf here and narrowly escape a brawl with Redcloak and the rest of current team evil.

Imagine Haley and Elan vs Team Evil.. What could those two even hope to do?
Edit: Inb4 Elan's 'happy ending' is dying alongside Haley, or dying knowing he has given Haley some means of saving the world.

[KorvinStarmast]

High roller! I only bet two on

KorvinStarmast (https://forums.giantitp.com/member.php?109395-KorvinStarmast) what are the odds on this now?
Hmm, that's a very long shot. 30 to 1 against.

[Snails]

So. Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona have gone barrelling into a fight with Big Bad Beasties without buffing themselves. Then suddenly all sound will cut out, taking out most of their casting ability, and a few seconds later Greyview will join them from around a corner..? This may take a little while to untangle.

You could easily be right. It is very plausible for them to get shredded up pretty badly, because they are expecting one kind of enemy and will run smack into something else entirely.

[Yendor]

You could easily be right. It is very plausible for them to get shredded up pretty badly, because they are expecting one kind of enemy and will run smack into something else entirely.

It would be ironic if Minrah's plan ended up getting Redcloak killed. Very unlikely, but still.

[BloodSquirrel]

If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?

I don't think the requirement to "die with honor" requires them to be a bunch of Leeroy Jenkins, charging straight into any hopeless battle that offers itself. If she dies right now, it'll be because she jumped into a fight against an extremely dangerous enemy to save Durkon, and at the moment retreating is the right thing to do by any measure. She's shown plenty enough honor and courage just by being there, so I'm pretty sure this would count as "dying in battle".

[Chijinda]

I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.

He got Redcloak and Xykon to blow some spell slots? In RC's case a 9th level one. If the Order capitalizes on this, in addition to TE being bruised up from encountering monsters behind the door, they may actually have a chance to do something (whether that's the search the tomb themselves, try a follow-up ambush or anything they want while TE's recuperating.

Durkon may have ruined the element of surprise but the situation's not unsalvageable.

[Ionathus]

I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.

Ah, but it was an absolutely perfect move for DRAMA.

A team member going rogue to do what they truly believe is right, and they maybe aren't even all that wrong? That's the kind of constructive conflict I dream of encountering as a player.

I'm firmly in the camp of "Durkon made the right decision." We've already seen Roy tell Julia that he'll kill Redcloak if he has to -- he's a good team leader, but he's not seeing the big (cosmic) picture.

That seed of doubt is going to fester in Redcloak's head, and crop up soon enough. When they have him at their mercy, hopefully he'll remember that negotiation was their opening play.

(NS: I continue to be baffled by predictions that Minrah's going to get Stuffed in the Fridge. It would be such a weird, dissonant story beat.)

[Ace of Rogues]

Regarding MitD, I suspect Team Evil has reached a point where they just screen out most of what he says, particularly in the long term. They'll remember that he treated O-Chul like a pet/teddy bear and was shouting encouragement during his ESCAPE! just like he did when they were dropping him into acid, and that in the desert he babbled something that happened to make sense as a reason to move on, but to them he's been a background character for so long that I suspect all those subtle hints that he's been sabotaging them/helping their enemies won't come to mind unless they really sit down and brainstorm, which Xykon is absolutely not going to be up for right now. That said, if things settle into a lull after this and Xykon and RC start thinking back and examining times where things went wrong they'll probably notice a trend of MitD being involved, particularly if they clue in to the fact that someone has been adding X's. Now, whether they conclude MitD is actually exhibiting independent thought or is just bumbling around causing problems is pretty up in the air. My guess is RC suspects treachery and Xykon brushes it off since stupidity is the easier and more obvious answer.

[Theshipening]

They'll remember that he treated O-Chul like a pet/teddy bear and was shouting encouragement during his ESCAPE!

Not even that. Xykon, only one present at the time, thinks he was asleep https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html

[EyethatBinds]

Is this comic going to be added to the archive list any time soon?

[arimareiji]

Is it just me, or does the story seem to be begging for Durkon and Minrah to run smack into MitD?

~~~~


won't silence be really disruptive if greyview ran into range of the spellcasters in the middle a big fight? :smallbiggrin:

I think it's a safe bet none of this will happen, but a variety of epic hijinks could ensue.

Big nasty fight with a sonic-type who's kicking their butts until Greyview shows up.

Big nasty fight with a tank-type. Xykon quickly figures out the source of the Silence and ends Greyview's existence on this plane, because otherwise they're screwed plus he's just that impatient. (Definitely don't want this happening, I like Greyview and Oona.)

Or... no fight. Slapstick charades ensue, with a Lassie joke certain and Greyview biting the culprit.

[Shirow]

That's a very good point.



My interpretation is that all of those saves apply if the spell is being cast on a person, but not if a person is merely within the area of effect of a Silence spell. I'm not convinced that any of these saves etc. allow one to make noise within a sound-dead area.

The problem with this interpretation is that it could easily be abused in actual play. You could very easily cast it on your willing barbarian who will forfeit her save and then you can send her to hack away at all the enemy casters, who then would not get a save.

Everyone should be getting a save/SR or they game grinds to a screeching halt because of a low level spell. But yeah the way the spell rules are written is ambiguous. Though there might be something like a general rule for magic Area of Effect that you're supposed to assume whenever you read those. At least in 3.5e?

EDIT:
Oh wow, there are some players here who actually do use the spell that way. It just seems like too good of a combo at lower levels so I never applied/interpreted it like that. Since its application seems stronger than Dispel Magic and it is one level lower. Moving away from a Barbarian or a Monk with Silence casted upon them seems like a very tall order for any caster in the lower levels. But I'm getting into RAI territory now and other spells do explicitly state when creatures who enter the emanation's area get a save so I guess I'll stop.

Though if I may say one more thing: a reason why Greg, Durkon and Minrah did not speak within the area of Silence is that it was in their best interests not to make any noise so they voluntarily failed the save when they were first exposed to the effect. It's not a very strong argument, admittedly. :smallconfused:

[Goblin_Priest]

Adventurers are not typically wandering around the landscape with paint. I think if MitD says 'no definitely wasn't me, was probably those adventurers' the baddies would believe it. I think if he says 'oh- yeah I must have painted the wrong door lol my bad!' the baddies would believe it. What they won't do is jump to the conclusion the MitD did it and that he was doing it in order to assist the Order/the cause of Good.

I'm pretty sure prestidigitation would cover "make an X in paint".

I'm not sure why paint is supposed to be so special and distinctive in a world filled with spellcasters.

[Saint-Just]

Team Evil has a collection of a few hundred prisoners dungeons, of whom they believe one knows is the location of the Gate. Each night, they interrogate crawl a few prisoners dungeons and then shoot paint them to keep track of them, becuse they're Evil. While the others are heading home, MitD shoots paints a few extra prisoners doors with the same gun paint, which is really crappy and has to be replaced every few nights,* but is of a common model formula, before rejoining them.

When Team Evil uses Speak With Dead on re-enters a corpse dungeon (which they believe to know be the location of two escaping dwarf clerics) to realize some of the corpses doors were not interrogated cleared, do they suspect MitD?

Also, how many people have blue eyes and what do you ask the guard who always lies?

* This clause may be optional as the paint-making methods have not been described and are possibly magical, which would guarantee a more consistent makeup. Actually, a lot of this isn't really important to the analogy.

OK, that was awesomely done.



NS: I continue to be baffled by predictions that Minrah's going to get Stuffed in the Fridge. It would be such a weird, dissonant story beat.

I have read that as theoretical musings about dwarven afterlives as applied to specific situation, not as prediction that it is likely to happen. I may be wrong.

[danielxcutter]

The problem with this interpretation is that it could easily be abused in actual play. You could very easily cast it on your willing barbarian who will forfeit her save and then you can send her to hack away at all the enemy casters, who then would not get a save.

Everyone should be getting a save/SR or they game grinds to a screeching halt because of a low level spell. But yeah the way the spell rules are written is ambiguous. Though there might be something like a general rule for magic Area of Effect that you're supposed to assume whenever you read those. At least in 3.5e?

I imagine a very significant reason this doesn’t happen is because this means the casters won’t have anything to do on their turn(which is unfun) and also because many enemies tend to be very formidable without casting spells(and in fact may be even more dangerous because your casters can’t cast either.

That being said, if a Cerebremancer PC at my table tried to do this I’d be sent to the ER from Critical Lactose Intolerance from the sheer cheese.

[Metastachydium]

I think it's a safe bet none of this will happen, but a variety of epic hijinks could ensue.

Big nasty fight with a sonic-type who's kicking their butts until Greyview shows up.

Big nasty fight with a tank-type. Xykon quickly figures out the source of the Silence and ends Greyview's existence on this plane, because otherwise they're screwed plus he's just that impatient. (Definitely don't want this happening, I like Greyview and Oona.)

Or... no fight. Slapstick charades ensue, with a Lassie joke certain and Greyview biting the culprit.

Call me a killjoy if you see that fit, but ”Greyview explains to Oona with facial expressions and gestures and without much difficulty that Team Evil should follow him; Redcloak realizes immediately that the clerics are somewhere behind them; he lags behind as Oona and Greyview begin to move back towards the door until he's out of range; he dispels the silence spell; and off they go” sounds a lot more likely than ”Team Evil almost dies and then X. kills Greyview.”
Also, I don't expect that we are going to see how Greyview delivers the message.



(NS: I continue to be baffled by predictions that Minrah's going to get Stuffed in the Fridge. It would be such a weird, dissonant story beat.)

While I find the idea that Minrah is soon to die less than feasible, I would presume that those who believe Minrah will die base that assumption on the fact thet she is not a core member of the Order, and (according to the Giant) not a member of the main cast, either. As such, she is indeed a more likely candidate for getting killed were Team Evil to demonstrate that they are still a deadly threat than any member of the Order (including Belkar). Needless to say, since we know well enough what Team Evil and its individual members are capable of, such a demonstration would be largely gratuitous.

[ZiggyGuy]

Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.

That first part... that's not how the spell works at all o.o
And that second part? That's exactly the common tactic.

I'm not sure what spell you're thinking of, but your complaint is perfectly wrong, as you describe the use of the spell as your assumed-wrong scenario.
Silence only has one save, at the start, and only if you casted it on a living being or an item held by someone wanting to resist it.
You can even cast it on yourself, or an object you're holding, with no save at all. Then move with the silence around you, or throw the item where you want the center of "silence" to be...
Even better to cast it on your melee-based ally, who'd then go melee the casters XD

[Jason]

That first part... that's not how the spell works at all o.o
And that second part? That's exactly the common tactic.
Yes, I realized that about 3 pages ago. I'm going back and deleting that post.

[Mad Humanist]

Is this comic going to be added to the archive list any time soon?


What do you mean?

[Zombimode]

The problem with this interpretation is that it could easily be abused in actual play. You could very easily cast it on your willing barbarian who will forfeit her save and then you can send her to hack away at all the enemy casters, who then would not get a save.

Yes, that is how the rules work. It is not an interpretation, but the intended effect of the spell.

I think you're overreacting. Having a silinced team member going against enemy casters is a good tactic but it does not cause the game to grind "to a screeching halt" nor is it a fail-safe shutdown against casters.

[Schroeswald]

Team Evil has a collection of a few hundred prisoners dungeons, of whom they believe one knows is the location of the Gate. Each night, they interrogate crawl a few prisoners dungeons and then shoot paint them to keep track of them, becuse they're Evil. While the others are heading home, MitD shoots paints a few extra prisoners doors with the same gun paint, which is really crappy and has to be replaced every few nights,* but is of a common model formula, before rejoining them.

When Team Evil uses Speak With Dead on re-enters a corpse dungeon (which they believe to know be the location of two escaping dwarf clerics) to realize some of the corpses doors were not interrogated cleared, do they suspect MitD?

Also, how many people have blue eyes and what do you ask the guard who always lies?

* This clause may be optional as the paint-making methods have not been described and are possibly magical, which would guarantee a more consistent makeup. Actually, a lot of this isn't really important to the analogy.

This the point where an analogy is pointless because this is just the situation (ignoring of course any other suspects some but not all people believe are valid) but with murder.

[mashlagoo1982]

Assuming they run into a door that wasn't cleared, Team Evil is probably going to suspect Team Good of sabotaging the doors if anyone.

All the evidence just lines up too nicely from Team Evil's perspective for it to be anyone else.

The sudden appearance of the dwarves whom seem well prepared and more at-ease then maybe they should for their current situation.
Like they had ample time to prepare and selected this exact moment to make their move.

How the trail would be leading to a false marked door in the first place.
It is more believable it was planned on the part of Team Good instead of just random coincidence.
Follow that up with the dwarves sending a silenced Greyview in right afterwards... this totally looks like an intentional set-up by Team Good.

I don't think X would ever suspect MitD.
RC may... but his distrust/hatred for other races is going to be a block preventing him from coming to that conclusion.
Team Evil is probably going to fall victim to the Correlation Equals Causation Fallacy and Confirmation Bias Fallacy.

Also, would it be impossible for anyone to steal some paint to sabotage the marks?
I don't remember where it is being stored.
Maybe a well prepared rogue with spells buffing could make that possible?
This could be the conclusion RC come to.

[Xlsfd]

Even if Xykon and/or Redcloak suspect the MitD of marking unexplored doors, there's always the question whether or not they could do anything against it. My money is on the "MitD is a young Tarrasque" theory, and in that case, Team Evil would need a Wish spell to rid themselves of the MitD. And while Xykon would certainly be powerful enough to cast Wish, there is no indication at all he has it on his spell list, especially since Wish is pretty much narrative-breaking like True Resurrection.

[Peelee]

How the trail would be leading to a false marked door in the first place.
It is more believable it was planned on the part of Team Good instead of just random coincidence.
Why would that be planned? If anything, that immediately lets Team Evil know that the markings are unreliable, instead of letting them believe they are reliable for an unknown amount of time in the future. It's actively detrimental to Team Good to let them know, assuming Team Good painted them.

[Riarra]

It would be ironic if Minrah's plan ended up getting Redcloak killed. Very unlikely, but still.

I realize it's exceedingly unlikely, but I kind of love the idea of Redcloak dying and Durkon having to raise him right after Redcloak tried to kill him.

[Fyraltari]

I realize it's exceedingly unlikely, but I kind of love the idea of Redcloak dying and Durkon having to raise him right after Redcloak tried to kill him.

That’s an interesting idea... Redcloak would have had a talk with his boss.

[Dion]

Assuming they run into a door that wasn't cleared, Team Evil is probably going to suspect Team Good of sabotaging the doors if anyone.


Or maybe team evil decides they’re random doors, opening to a different inter-dimensional dungeon each time you open them.

Or maybe team evil decides the dungeons repopulate much more quickly than they realized.

Or maybe team evil decides that the unreliable dope with the paint can who paints doors has painted the doors in an unreliable and dopey way.

Or maybe team evil will decide some other bugbear has been painting doors too, because they don’t want their favorite hunting ground messed with.

Or maybe team evil dies, and for the rest of the book is OotS has to figure out how to save the world without them.

What I’m saying is there are hundreds of potential “what next” scenarios, and choosing between either “team evil decides OotS did it” or “team evil decides MitD betrayed them” as the only options is a false dichotomy.

[MaverickMopete]

:roy: : Durkon, didn't I tell you not that long ago that our one single advantage we possess is the element of surprise?

[mashlagoo1982]

Why would that be planned? If anything, that immediately lets Team Evil know that the markings are unreliable, instead of letting them believe they are reliable for an unknown amount of time in the future. It's actively detrimental to Team Good to let them know, assuming Team Good painted them.

I must not have made myself clear, so I will attempt again.

From the perspective of Team Evil, this could look like an attempt from Team Good to bump them off.

All the facts are easily aligned to fit that narrative from their perspective.
Even if Team Evil think back to their past discrepancies (where they started thinking they must have gone into more dungeons but didn't remember doing so), this could look like a trap long in the making that is being sprung now.

How would the good guys know this dungeon was sabotaged and contains super high level monsters still?
Obviously the good guys marked it themselves and just remembered its location as part of their plan.

How would the good guys know when to make contact with RC?
They were watching Team Evil.

Why are these dwarves so brazen with their behavior and relatively unconcerned with their current situation?
Because they put in the time and effort to orchestrated events and lead Team Evil into a scenario that would benefit Team Good.
One even shouted at RC "This is a bad plan we planned for!"

Team Evil could easily and incorrectly leap to the conclusion that Team Good has been watching their actions for sometime and planned this moment to tip their hand with hopes that Team Evil is killed.
Both of RC and X have huge flaws that could play into this assumption.



Or maybe team evil decides they’re random doors, opening to a different inter-dimensional dungeon each time you open them.

Or maybe team evil decides the dungeons repopulate much more quickly than they realized.

Or maybe team evil decides that the unreliable dope with the paint can who paints doors has painted the doors in an unreliable and dopey way.

Or maybe team evil will decide some other bugbear has been painting doors too, because they don’t want their favorite hunting ground messed with.

Or maybe team evil dies, and for the rest of the book is OotS has to figure out how to save the world without them.

What I’m saying is there are hundreds of potential “what next” scenarios, and choosing between either “team evil decides OotS did it” or “team evil decides MitD betrayed them” as the only options is a false dichotomy.

Which is why I used the language "if anyone".

[mashlagoo1982]

Sorry for the double post.

[bunsen_h]

If Silence is cast on a person/creature, and that person/creature is killed, does the spell end? That is, is the spell attached to the body or to some kind of philosophical essence of the being?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes, that is how the rules work. It is not an interpretation, but the intended effect of the spell.

I think you're overreacting. Having a silinced team member going against enemy casters is a good tactic but it does not cause the game to grind "to a screeching halt" nor is it a fail-safe shutdown against casters.

Yeah. Silent Spell is a feat designed pretty much to shut this tactic down. Similar with Still Spell. Or you just put a spell in a spell completion item that doesn't need a command word (Ring of Spell Storing, for example).

It's very hard to inconvenience spellcasters for more than a round or two.

edit:

If Silence is cast on a person/creature, and that person/creature is killed, does the spell end? That is, is the spell attached to the body or to some kind of philosophical essence of the being?
The spell sticks around for the remainder of its duration, which is short enough to not worry about.

[KorvinStarmast]

Both of RC and X have huge flaws that could play into this assumption.

Redcloak was certainly sure that the Sapphire Guard knew more than they did (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). This might have gotten reinforced by the encounter near Girard's recently destroyed gate (when Redcloak summoned the silicon elemental ...)
As seen by team evil:
Pesky heroes annoy them near Durokan's gate (flawed TE assumption being that they were there to mess with the gate or take it from Xykon)
Pesky heroes try to defeat Xykon/stop him from taking the gate that Miko ultimately destroyed. (Failed, granted, but certainly tried)
Pesky Heroes are there when Girard's gate blows up, leaving but one gate for TE ... which TE get to... and WTF, these pesky and annoying heroes are doing it again, getting in the way of TE using the gate for their own purposes.

Xykon and TE can certainly see that trend as part of a larger plan, regardless of whether TE get or don't get the correct reasons behind that plan.

[Fish]

Re: how much Team Evil might guess about the MITD's plan to mark doors

I haven't been trying to follow the convoluted metaphors in this discussion, but if Team Evil encounters monsters here, they have only enough evidence to say that one door was marked incorrectly — this one that they went in.

We know that the MITD has been marking multiple doors. We know that Redcloak has been making calculated assumptions based on their average completion rate.

If we're attempting to declare that it's more or less likely that Team Evil guesses that anyone has been marking doors, plural, then we have to get to the moment of realization that doors, plural, are marked wrong.

[One Skunk Todd]

Although at this point I still think that there is some kind of combination lock on the Gate - it's not about an individual door, it's about a specific combination of doors, opening in sequence, that gets you to the Gate.

Maybe you have to spell out "Sacrifice Forgotten" with open doors.

[Shirow]

Yeah. Silent Spell is a feat designed pretty much to shut this tactic down. Similar with Still Spell. Or you just put a spell in a spell completion item that doesn't need a command word (Ring of Spell Storing, for example).

It's very hard to inconvenience spellcasters for more than a round or two.

edit:

The spell sticks around for the remainder of its duration, which is short enough to not worry about.

Yeah, my misinterpretation comes from the the very limited number of spell slots characters will have at the time this spell will become available. Which to me also limits access to metamagic feats like silent spell. So it felt like an overpowered effect for a level 2 spell. At least I learned something new, better late than never.
Having the ranger etc. guard the casters seems way more important during the low levels now.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe you have to spell out "Sacrifice Forgotten" with open doors. Or "Mellon" since this is a self aware stick figure comic ...

OBTW: I like your idea. :smallsmile:

[Arkain]

Ah, our dearest Durkon is always so thoughtful.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah, my misinterpretation comes from the the very limited number of spell slots characters will have at the time this spell will become available. Which to me also limits access to metamagic feats like silent spell. So it felt like an overpowered effect for a level 2 spell. At least I learned something new, better late than never.
Having the ranger etc. guard the casters seems way more important during the low levels now.

Wizards and sorcerers don't have a ton of feats, though, and wizards need to anticipate which spells they'd need silent. A metamagic rod comes in handy for this, though.

Still, a spell that makes a hostile caster unable to cast his spells on you for two rounds is a great investment. Especially if it requires such a low level slot.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything about the caster's friends with their shiny metal sticks.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

:roy: : Durkon, didn't I tell you not that long ago that our one single advantage we possess is the element of surprise?

Roy, you of all people should know better than to rely on ANY of the Order, including you, to be capable of making plan A work from start to finish without shenanigans, unexpected turns of fate, or at least one (eu)catastrophe.

If anything, Durkon is acting in the proper OOTS tradition of running away from the threat. Just be glad the whole party's still alive to disappoint you.

[Riftwolf]

Imagine Haley and Elan vs Team Evil.. What could those two even hope to do?

Elan vs Team Evil
Elan: Hi! I'm Elan!
Redcloak:... And?
Elan: I'm a bard. I can, like, sing and stuff.
Redcloak:...
Elan: And I wondered if... I dunno... You needed something put into a song?
Redcloak: Why would I want a song...
Elan: Maybe a historic epic about goblinoid triumphs, or something.
Redcloak: no, no, I'm not having humans capitalising on our cultural...
Elan: Oh, goblinoid musical cultures? Like Bugbear Throat Singing, or Hobgoblin Battle Hymns?
Redcloak: I... Wait you know about them?
Elan: I don't normally play them, I'm very aware of appropriation. But if you have any Goblin Bards, then I could teach them what I've learnt and restore the cultural heritage that was lost.
Redcloak: I don't get it, what's in it for you?
Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines.

Haley vs Team Evil
Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it!

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines. Which reminds me, I can't wait for the next Witcher season.


Haley vs Team Evil
Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it! 👏

[Peelee]

I must not have made myself clear, so I will attempt again.

From the perspective of Team Evil, this could look like an attempt from Team Good to bump them off.

All the facts are easily aligned to fit that narrative from their perspective.
Even if Team Evil think back to their past discrepancies (where they started thinking they must have gone into more dungeons but didn't remember doing so), this could look like a trap long in the making that is being sprung now.

How would the good guys know this dungeon was sabotaged and contains super high level monsters still?
Obviously the good guys marked it themselves and just remembered its location as part of their plan.

How would the good guys know when to make contact with RC?
They were watching Team Evil.

Why are these dwarves so brazen with their behavior and relatively unconcerned with their current situation?
Because they put in the time and effort to orchestrated events and lead Team Evil into a scenario that would benefit Team Good.
One even shouted at RC "This is a bad plan we planned for!"

Team Evil could easily and incorrectly leap to the conclusion that Team Good has been watching their actions for sometime and planned this moment to tip their hand with hopes that Team Evil is killed.
Both of RC and X have huge flaws that could play into this assumption.

That's a terrible plan, though.

[Petrocorus]

I am reminded, by your post, of the movie The Usual Suspects and for how long who Keyser Söze was remained a mystery even to the cast. (There was a story going around a few years back that Gabriel Byrne was convinced that Keyser Söze was his character, in the end).
That's sound odd to me since ever when i first watch it i never believed Byrne's character would be Söse. The movie and notably Palminteri's character are just pushing too hard toward it, i knew clearly it would be someone else.


Yes. Yes that, uh, is the common tactic. That's exactly how the spell is used.
Indeed. The one reason people don't always use it, it's because it can hinder your own spellcasters.


It's interesting to me that this is actually a confirmation that Greyview can actually SPEAK Common. We'd only seen him really talking to Oona and MiTD before, I was actually kind of under the impression that he could only be understood by those 2 and that was a clue to MiTD's nature.
That was also my impression for a long time.


Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?

You're thinking about Maze or Hallucinatory Terrain, but none of them has such a powerful effect.



So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast
No. You're thinking 5E Sorcerers. In 3.5, Sorcerers didn't have Sorcery points and had to pay for metamagic with upper spell slots like everyone, and needed to first have the feat.


I'm pretty sure prestidigitation would cover "make an X in paint".

Every effect other that cleaning and soiling last for only one hour. That includes painting.


I realize it's exceedingly unlikely, but I kind of love the idea of Redcloak dying and Durkon having to raise him right after Redcloak tried to kill him.
Couldn't the Order put the Cloak on a low-level bugbear shaman who would be more willing to discuss and try to carry a message to TDO?

[pendell]

Couldn't the Order put the Cloak on a low-level bugbear shaman who would be more willing to discuss and try to carry a message to TDO?

The Order doesn't yet know how the cloak works, to my knowledge. For the second problem, there's no guarantee a low-level shaman would cooperate any more than the current bearer would. For a third, the bearer still has to level up to gain spell levels, and it could take a long time before they were in a position to use a ninth-level spell slot.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jacky720]

This the point where an analogy is pointless because this is just the situation (ignoring of course any other suspects some but not all people believe are valid) but with murder.
And the problem with that would be..?

...don't answer that. Is it "because the point of using an analogy is to simplify the situation"? I could definitely cut a lot of the irrelevant crap from that. Is it "because the point of using an analogy is to use more familiar terms that people can mentally convert back (like a Fourier transform)"? I don't see how guns are more familiar than paint buckets, and in any case that applied to the original analogy too- Or was it the direct inclusion of Team Evil and Speak With Dead that ruined the immersion in those familiar terms? Was it the first one because even though I could cut it down, I didn't, so it still ruins the point? Actually, I agree with analogy definition 2 but... what IS the point of an analogy?

[Anitar]

[SPOILER=Usual Suspects]
Every effect other that cleaning and soiling last for only one hour. That includes painting.

Soil it with bloodstains in the shape of an X.

[Petrocorus]

The Order doesn't yet know how the cloak works, to my knowledge.

I'm a bit fuzzy on what the Order know about the Cloak.
Between what Hinjo may have told about it, and what Thor told Durkon, they may know how it work, but i'm certainly not sur.



For the second problem, there's no guarantee a low-level shaman would cooperate any more than the current bearer would.

Well, facing high level adventurer that just killed the previous bearer may at least make him ready to listen.



For a third, the bearer still has to level up to gain spell levels, and it could take a long time before they were in a position to use a ninth-level spell slot.

Not sure why the Order would need him to cast a ninth level spell. What they need is for him to try to talk to the Dark One. I think praying could do the trick. Maybe an Augury spell can be used, by phrasing the question right.

[understatement]

I'm a bit fuzzy on what the Order know about the Cloak.
Between what Hinjo may have told about it, and what Thor told Durkon, they may know how it work, but i'm certainly not sur.

They are unlikely to know beyond the ritual aspects. Also, the cloak isn't needed for the rift-sealing ritual.



Well, facing high level adventurer that just killed the previous bearer may at least make him ready to listen.


Not sure why the Order would need him to cast a ninth level spell. What they need is for him to try to talk to the Dark One. I think praying could do the trick. Maybe an Augury spell can be used, by phrasing the question right.

Good for the shaman, but he's not powerful enough. It's not about the TDO receiving this information (he, in fact, could be witnessing the negotiation) it's about the mortal themself having enough power to channel a 9th level equivelent into sealing the rifts. Only mortals can permanently seal the rifts without the world needing to be destroyed, and pretty much only Redcloak has the power.

[Chijinda]

Not sure why the Order would need him to cast a ninth level spell. What they need is for him to try to talk to the Dark One. I think praying could do the trick. Maybe an Augury spell can be used, by phrasing the question right.

Thor mentions that to seal the rift, they need Redcloak to contribute a 9th level spell slot. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

[QUOTE=Petrocorus;24763336] That's sound odd to me since ever when i first watch it i never believed Byrne's character would be Söse. The movie and notably Palminteri's character are just pushing too hard toward it, i knew clearly it would be someone else. I read an article some years back about the tight time schedule and how it was shot out of sequence; it would be quite believable that until it was edited and cut, the actors themselves would not quite know how it all fit together (except perhaps Spacey, since he seemed to have been a bit of a catalyst in getting other actors to buy into it ... but that may be more rumor than fact)

[Dion]

That's a terrible plan, though.

Then it must be right!

[Petrocorus]

Thor mentions that to seal the rift, they need Redcloak to contribute a 9th level spell slot. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

I stand corrected.

[danielxcutter]

Elan vs Team Evil
Elan: Hi! I'm Elan!
Redcloak:... And?
Elan: I'm a bard. I can, like, sing and stuff.
Redcloak:...
Elan: And I wondered if... I dunno... You needed something put into a song?
Redcloak: Why would I want a song...
Elan: Maybe a historic epic about goblinoid triumphs, or something.
Redcloak: no, no, I'm not having humans capitalising on our cultural...
Elan: Oh, goblinoid musical cultures? Like Bugbear Throat Singing, or Hobgoblin Battle Hymns?
Redcloak: I... Wait you know about them?
Elan: I don't normally play them, I'm very aware of appropriation. But if you have any Goblin Bards, then I could teach them what I've learnt and restore the cultural heritage that was lost.
Redcloak: I don't get it, what's in it for you?
Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines.

Haley vs Team Evil
Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it!

*wheezes hysterically*

[bunsen_h]

To add to the incipient confusion: Shortly before Greyview joins Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona, they will experience the effects of the Silence spell. But they believe that Durkon and Minrah are in the dungeon with them, and will assume that the Silence will have been cast by them from inside the dungeon.

[Wraithfighter]

My thoughts on this are based on, well, that this is a Story, its fine for contrivances to happen if they benefit the story, particularly if they're well executed.

We already know that Team Evil is very likely heading into a fight in the cave. This seems likely to be Chekov's Gun firing off, a reason why mispainting the door is so key (beyond MITD's general path towards the good guys continuing).

Grayview could've easily just followed Oona in if Team Evil was unlikely to be bothered by the enemies in the cave. Him sprinting towards them with a caster-negating spell effect when they're in hostile territory seems tailor made for a bit of chaotic conflict.

And Chekov has another gun loaded and primed: Xykon's Phylactery. Xykon thinks its in a planar prison, but it got swapped out with an imposter by Redcloak. The whereabouts of it are currently unknown, but also probably not too close at hand, too great a risk of Xykon discovering the swap if its kept near the Lich (where Redcloak's going to be).

And finally... Team Evil isn't the main villain. Oh, they're a major enemy that needs to be stopped. But there's also the IFCC and what their plans are (which, who knows!). We have the wildcards in the unknown pair that spirited away Lien and O'chul. And there's, well, the real Big Threat: The Snarl... or whatever it is now. That's the thing we know the least about, because between the lore of the Sapphire Guard, the infernal knowledge of the IFCC, and the even the Gods themselves... none of them seem to have a clue about what's going on behind those rifts, and what's the deal with the planet within.

So, my theory? It's........ well, I dunno, exactly. But I'd wager one of four things is going to happen, because I'm a coward and I like hedging my bets:


Due to Grayview's arrival, Xykon and Redcloak's spells fail at the wrong moment, and Xykon's body is destroyed... leaving Redcloak's secret revealed, putting the Goblin on a race to either destroy the Phylactery or seek shelter before a pissed-off Xykon comes a calling.
Somehow, the MITD's betrayal is unveiled, leading to chaos there (but feels too minor and doesn't account for enough Chekov's Guns ready to fire).
They stumble upon the final Gate and either Team Evil grasps some great truth about the Snarl or, as a result of Grayview's unexpected arrival disrupting a winnable battle, the Gate is destroyed, starting to unveil things all by itself.
Rich is just ****ing with us all with all this set-up and it's going to be a comedic beat where Team Evil sorts everything out on their end fine, they actually did explore that tunnel already, but are still unable to catch up to the Dwarves who escape back to the party for round 2.


...option 4 just feels like a good fall-back for potentially overthinking things. But gun to my head? I think Option 1. It disrupts Team Evil, giving the IFCC their chance to make their play while the heroes deal with the Wild Card Ghosties.

[arimareiji]

To add to the incipient confusion: Shortly before Greyview joins Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona, they will experience the effects of the Silence spell. But they believe that Durkon and Minrah are in the dungeon with them, and will assume that the Silence will have been cast by them from inside the dungeon.

Nice point.

For anyone wondering, I still think this resulting in an extremely weird game of charades with Greyview will never happen but would be fun. (How would you play charades when no one can speak, anyway?)

[Rinazina]

The Order doesn't yet know how the cloak works, to my knowledge. For the second problem, there's no guarantee a low-level shaman would cooperate any more than the current bearer would. For a third, the bearer still has to level up to gain spell levels, and it could take a long time before they were in a position to use a ninth-level spell slot.


I just got a strange vision...

we need someone with a 9 level spell slot,
we need someone willing to collaborate and likely to sacrifice their current life, for this Thor-plan.

that person is: :vaarsuvius:

F.A.Q. (I mean, nobody ever asked them. I'm just assuming now):

Hir has still to revindicate all the XP for the familicide, yes, we remember panel three (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), and emphasis on very unlikely. We talk about one-quarter of all the black dragons globally, plus the humanoids related to Draketooth.

Hir current life plan is already screwed up precisely because of familicide. What complete utter sacrifice is, to fry everything you are and give up what you work for?

For the rule of narration, the XP of a high-level wizard can be converted in a high-level priest because of the crimson mantle artifact.

the order does not know anything about the crimson mantle, but Durkon would commute with Thor and/or other Godly faction will join this, make proper estimations, and YOLO vaarsuvius, wear it!

[Aasimar]

You know what would have been clever?

Closing the door.

[danielxcutter]

I just got a strange vision...

we need someone with a 9 level spell slot,
we need someone willing to collaborate and likely to sacrifice their current life, for this Thor-plan.

that person is: :vaarsuvius:

F.A.Q. (I mean, nobody ever asked them. I'm just assuming now):

Hir has still to revindicate all the XP for the familicide, yes, we remember panel three (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), and emphasis on very unlikely. We talk about one-quarter of all the black dragons globally, plus the humanoids related to Draketooth.

Hir current life plan is already screwed up precisely because of familicide. What complete utter sacrifice is, to fry everything you are and give up what you work for?

For the rule of narration, the XP of a high-level wizard can be converted in a high-level priest because of the crimson mantle artifact.

the order does not know anything about the crimson mantle, but Durkon would commute with Thor and/or other Godly faction will join this, make proper estimations, and YOLO vaarsuvius, wear it!

Please tell me this is just a joke. I hate people trying to write Redcloak out of the story, or at least a lot of the motivations behind doing so.

[Rinazina]

Please tell me this is just a joke. I hate people trying to write Redcloak out of the story, or at least a lot of the motivations behind doing so.

Yes, of course, is a joke. We are page 3+ of the comments; what you expect :smalltongue: ?
Still, i don't exclude Redclock might die before the Snarl threat gets solved.

Also, I want to goblin be free and integrated and would be, even in a fantasy scenario, impossible all the worldwide cultures accept a new level of fairness towards them - without all the pantheon agreeing on this-.

Redclock it is not meant to be part of the solution in this plan; he is the one that makes the problem mainstream.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, of course, is a joke. We are page 3+ of the comments; what you expect :smalltongue: ?
Still, i don't exclude Redclock might die before the Snarl threat gets solved.

Also, I want to goblin be free and integrated and would be, even in a fantasy scenario, impossible all the worldwide cultures accept a new level of fairness towards them - without all the pantheon agreeing on this-.

Redclock it is not meant to be part of the solution in this plan; he is the one that makes the problem mainstream.

Unless the Giant decides to end this on a depressing “and the cycle was never broken” note, I doubt that. Yes, Redcloak has committed numerous atrocities. But he is a far more complex character than that and ignoring all that potential to pull a Deus Ex Machina out of Rich’s ass would be stupid.

There have been people unironically saying that everything Redcloak represents is objectively wrong and therefore he needs to be taken out with extreme (and presumably speciesist) prejudice and I do not like that. And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.

[Goblin_Priest]

They are unlikely to know beyond the ritual aspects. Also, the cloak isn't needed for the rift-sealing ritual.

It isn't? I don't think we know that. I suspect that the cloak acts as some sort of divine focus for the ritual. While it's entirely possible that the cloak simply gives all the required knowledge to the bearer, that remains once removed, D&D items tend not to do that, because... well... you could just pass the cloak around to everyone to give everyone the perk.

The ritual is god-level, though it requires mortal spellcasting as components. I'm not inclined to believe the god-given cloak artifact is optional.


And finally... Team Evil isn't the main villain. Oh, they're a major enemy that needs to be stopped. But there's also the IFCC and what their plans are (which, who knows!). We have the wildcards in the unknown pair that spirited away Lien and O'chul. And there's, well, the real Big Threat: The Snarl... or whatever it is now. That's the thing we know the least about, because between the lore of the Sapphire Guard, the infernal knowledge of the IFCC, and the even the Gods themselves... none of them seem to have a clue about what's going on behind those rifts, and what's the deal with the planet within.

Wait, what? They aren't?

The Snarl is more of a plot device than a villain. We even have a load of evidence that it isn't even a villain, or at least not exactly as it's described to be.

Without Team Evil to jeopardize the gates, the Snarl isn't really significant. The Order can't even do anything about the rifts without Team Evil's Redcloak.

I'm not sure at which point the IFCC will swoop in to become meaningful, and what their foreshadowing will unfold into, but I can't fathom the thought of the Order defeating Team Evil and then the story continuing for a bunch more books, equating Xykon with Nale, basically.

[Rinazina]

[...] Yes, Redcloak has committed numerous atrocities. But he is a far more complex character than that and ignoring all that potential to pull a Deus Ex Machina out of Rich’s ass would be stupid.
[...] And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.

I feel you, and the coffee mug 'resistance' is indeed a good auspice, but, I don't know, really Redclock might end up collaborating with the Order and do what Thor expect? I mean, a strategy spoken out of loud can't work even if it seems so.

Also, are the last 15 strips to show the most lower starting point of a new possible scenario? Maybe, but I hardly expect so.

[mashlagoo1982]

That's a terrible plan, though.

Maybe, but I have bore witness to plans that would be considered much worse and still produced good results.

How bad the plan would be if it were the action OotS was taking isn't really relevant.
I'm just pointing out that this seems to be a more likely interpretation of the situation Team Evil would arrive at if they were to blame the incorrectly marked door on anyone.

Team Evil: Why is this door marked wrong? Probably the heroes did it as part of this trap.

Also, depending on many factors, this may actually be a good plan.

[Rinazina]

It isn't? I don't think we know that. I suspect that the cloak acts as some sort of divine focus for the ritual.

Let me nip-tick a bit. The subject of understatement (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620805-OOTS-1217-The-Discussion-Thread&p=24764002#post24764002) was "sealing ritual," and the cloak isn't required to do that. Be a priest of the dark one is because of quiddity color. The cloak is indeed necessary for the second half of the week(s?)-long ritual that moves the gate.

[danielxcutter]

I feel you, and the coffee mug 'resistance' is indeed a good auspice, but, I don't know, really Redclock might end up collaborating with the Order and do what Thor expect? I mean, a strategy spoken out of loud can't work even if it seems so.

And will Xykon get control of the Gates because the Order has planned to do so on-panel? I doubt that. It’s the same thing really; the plan not working doesn’t mean the protagonists still can’t manage to achieve their objectives some how in another way.


Also, are the last 15 strips to show the most lower starting point of a new possible scenario? Maybe, but I hardly expect so.

I dunno, we’ll have to see.

[Peelee]

Maybe, but I have bore witness to plans that would be considered much worse and still produced good results.
Truth is stranger than fiction. The real world doesn't need to make sense. Stories do.

How bad the plan would be if it were the action OotS was taking isn't really relevant.
It is incredibly relevant, since how bad the plan is directly reflects the likelihood that it is true.

I'm just pointing out that this seems to be a more likely interpretation of the situation Team Evil would arrive at if they were to blame the incorrectly marked door on anyone.
Its not more likely, though. That's my point.

Team Evil: Why is this door marked wrong? Probably the heroes did it as part of this trap.
Team Evil: I've seen better plans in the M. C. Escher Functional Architecture school. This can't be their doing.

Also, depending on many factors, this may actually be a good plan.
Depending on many factors, the Order going home and trusting Redcloak to eventually do the right thing may actually be a good plan. But as of what we know right now, that's a terrible plan.

[danielxcutter]

Who’s M. C. Escher?

[understatement]

Unless the Giant decides to end this on a depressing “and the cycle was never broken” note, I doubt that. Yes, Redcloak has committed numerous atrocities. But he is a far more complex character than that and ignoring all that potential to pull a Deus Ex Machina out of Rich’s ass would be stupid.

There have been people unironically saying that everything Redcloak represents is objectively wrong and therefore he needs to be taken out with extreme (and presumably speciesist) prejudice and I do not like that. And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.

+1.

Incidentally, if Redcloak did die he would really get away with his crimes, considering he just goes straight to his god's domain.


It isn't? I don't think we know that. I suspect that the cloak acts as some sort of divine focus for the ritual. While it's entirely possible that the cloak simply gives all the required knowledge to the bearer, that remains once removed, D&D items tend not to do that, because... well... you could just pass the cloak around to everyone to give everyone the perk.

The ritual is god-level, though it requires mortal spellcasting as components. I'm not inclined to believe the god-given cloak artifact is optional.

Rinazina already answered this, but I'm pretty sure the rift-sealing ritual has nothing to do with the rift-warping ritual.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Who’s M. C. Escher?

Famous guy (https://mcescher.com/) whose drawings either are visual paradoxes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_(M._C._Escher)), or blend into each other (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._C._Escher#/media/File:Study_of_Regular_Division_of_the_Plane_with_R eptiles.jpg) (not to sell the guy short, he also has other drawings and works that don't fit into either of those categories; but he is most famous for them). You may know him from how his drawings inspired the staircase scene in Labyrinth.

https://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/mp/AfeGrybE7opx.jpg

Grey Wolf

[Ionathus]

Elan vs Team Evil
Elan: Hi! I'm Elan!
Redcloak:... And?
Elan: I'm a bard. I can, like, sing and stuff.
Redcloak:...
Elan: And I wondered if... I dunno... You needed something put into a song?
Redcloak: Why would I want a song...
Elan: Maybe a historic epic about goblinoid triumphs, or something.
Redcloak: no, no, I'm not having humans capitalising on our cultural...
Elan: Oh, goblinoid musical cultures? Like Bugbear Throat Singing, or Hobgoblin Battle Hymns?
Redcloak: I... Wait you know about them?
Elan: I don't normally play them, I'm very aware of appropriation. But if you have any Goblin Bards, then I could teach them what I've learnt and restore the cultural heritage that was lost.
Redcloak: I don't get it, what's in it for you?
Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines.

Haley vs Team Evil
Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it!

Dear lord, this is delightful. Thank you for this glimpse into an alternate reality!

[Jason]

There have been people unironically saying that everything Redcloak represents is objectively wrong and therefore he needs to be taken out with extreme (and presumably speciesist) prejudice and I do not like that. And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.
You are exaggerating. There are people on the forum who have said that they find the whole goblin oppression subplot suspicious, but not as far as i can tell because of a personal dislike of Redcloak the character. You have repeated that argument many times but I'm not seeing it. There is also plenty of evidence in the comic that Redcloak's view of goblin oppression and how the gods treat the other races is fundamentally flawed, to say the least.

Redcloak and his obsession with The Plan is the single biggest threat to the continued existence of goblinkind in Stickworld. He is a deplorable racist against anything non-goblin. He willingly condones slavery. To protect his secrets he murdered a co-worker in a truly horrifying fashion while lecturing her about how stupid she was. He stripped Xykon of his remaining humanity and made him an undead abomination in the service of the Plan. He has enslaved and sacrificed innumerable goblin and hobgoblin lives for the Plan. He willingly enslaved his own family and murdered his younger brother for the Plan. He attempted to murder Durkon, while acting as an emissary, for offering him an alternative to The Plan.

The "he had no choice" argument doesn't fly. He has had several clear decision points and has chosen Xylon and The Plan each time.

I wouldn't call him irredeemable but he's pretty close, to the point that it probably wouldn't be dramatically satisfying for him to not die even if he does eventually throw out the Plan and takes action towards redeeming himself.

I like Redcloak. His backstory and his refusal to let go of his obsession are tragic. But he is unquestionably a villain and he therefore deserves a villain's reward.

[mashlagoo1982]

It is incredibly relevant, since how bad the plan is directly reflects the likelihood that it is true.

Its not more likely, though. That's my point.

Team Evil: I've seen better plans in the M. C. Escher Functional Architecture school. This can't be their doing.



I guess we just disagree on this point.

I don't believe Team Evil will suspect MitD when OotS is right there front and center easier to blame.

If RC wasn't so hung up on his distrust and hatred of other races... maybe (I would give it 50/50 odds then if they were to try and place blame).
As it stands, I don't think they will make that leap.

[Ionathus]

You are exaggerating. There are people on the forum who have said that they find the whole goblin oppression subplot suspicious, but not as far as i can tell because of a personal dislike of Redcloak the character. You have repeated that argument many times but I'm not seeing it. There is also plenty of evidence in the comic that Redcloak's view of goblin oppression and how the gods treat the other races is fundamentally flawed, to say the least.

Redcloak and his obsession with The Plan is the single biggest threat to the continued existence of goblinkind in Stickworld. He is a deplorable racist against anything non-goblin. He willingly condones slavery. To protect his secrets he murdered a co-worker in a truly horrifying fashion while lecturing her about how stupid she was. He stripped Xykon of his remaining humanity and made him an undead abomination in the service of the Plan. He has enslaved and sacrificed innumerable goblin and hobgoblin lives for the Plan. He willingly enslaved his own family and murdered his younger brother for the Plan. He attempted to murder Durkon, while acting as an emissary, for offering him an alternative to The Plan.

The "he had no choice" argument doesn't fly. He has had several clear decision points and has chosen Xylon and The Plan each time.

I wouldn't call him irredeemable but he's pretty close, to the point that it probably wouldn't be dramatically satisfying for him to not die even if he does eventually throw out the Plan and takes action towards redeeming himself.

I like Redcloak. His backstory and his refusal to let go of his obsession are tragic. But he is unquestionably a villain and he therefore deserves a villain's reward.

(Serious question: have we stopped tagging SoD spoilers?)

I don't think anyone is arguing Redcloak isn't a villain. All the stuff you listed against him? That all still holds true.

But we've had multiple threads debating Goblinoid Oppression push into the dozens of pages before being locked, and I saw a ton of personal dislike for Redcloak motivating those discussions. Of course nobody's gonna outright state "I dislike Redcloak so I want him to be wrong about goblinoids, because then I don't have to reconcile my dislike with how he has a point" because people don't think like that, and it's always more complicated than that, so nobody would ever write that sentence. But several arguments essentially boiled down to how evil and hypocritical Redcloak is, and therefore "he must personally be removed from the story and maybe they can get Jirix to cast the spell to seal the rift? I don't care that he can't cast 9th level spells, the narrative could wait a few years while he levels up. What do you mean, 'that would be a confusing and narratively-jumbled conclusion'?"

EDIT:
I don't believe Team Evil will suspect MitD when OotS is right there front and center easier to blame.

Agreed, maybe they'd have questioned it if Durkon & Minrah hadn't shown up, but now that Team Evil knows OotS is there, it makes sense for the blame to shift over to them.

[danielxcutter]

(Serious question: have we stopped tagging SoD spoilers?)

I don't think anyone is arguing Redcloak isn't a villain. All the stuff you listed against him? That all still holds true.

But we've had multiple threads debating Goblinoid Oppression push into the dozens of pages before being locked, and I saw a ton of personal dislike for Redcloak motivating those discussions. Of course nobody's gonna outright state "I dislike Redcloak so I want him to be wrong about goblinoids, because then I don't have to reconcile my dislike with how he has a point" because people don't think like that, and it's always more complicated than that, so nobody would ever write that sentence. But several arguments essentially boiled down to how evil and hypocritical Redcloak is, and therefore "he must personally be removed from the story and maybe they can get Jirix to cast the spell to seal the rift? I don't care that he can't cast 9th level spells, the narrative could wait a few years while he levels up. What do you mean, 'that would be a confusing and narratively-jumbled conclusion'?"

Oh, and I’ve seen at least one actual argument that “goblins are supposed to be Always Evil because that’s how D&D works”. I imagine that is an minority even among the “throw Redcloak under the bus” party, though.

[Dion]

Agreed, maybe they'd have questioned it if Durkon & Minrah hadn't shown up, but now that Team Evil knows OotS is there, it makes sense for the blame to shift over to them.

Yeah, why blame the paint on the useless dope with the paint who’s been painting things?

[Jason]

But we've had multiple threads debating Goblinoid Oppression push into the dozens of pages before being locked, and I saw a ton of personal dislike for Redcloak motivating those discussions. Of course nobody's gonna outright state "I dislike Redcloak so I want him to be wrong about goblinoids, because then I don't have to reconcile my dislike with how he has a point" because people don't think like that, and it's always more complicated than that, so nobody would ever write that sentence. But several arguments essentially boiled down to how evil and hypocritical Redcloak is, and therefore "he must personally be removed from the story and maybe they can get Jirix to cast the spell to seal the rift? I don't care that he can't cast 9th level spells, the narrative could wait a few years while he levels up. What do you mean, 'that would be a confusing and narratively-jumbled conclusion'?"
The threads keep get locked because people seem to have trouble separating their feelings about real world racism from the fictional goblin suppression subplot and things keep getting too heated. Personally I think there are perfectly valid reasons to be skeptical of Redcloak's views on the subject.

It's also entirely possible to like Redcloak and still believe he is an evil hypocrite.

Yeah, the people who think Jirix should take over don't have a leg to stand on, but I don't think that means they hate Redcloak. More that they understand that Redcloak is a serious obstacle to the goblins improving their lives and hasn't shown any signs that his attitude will change anytime soon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, why blame the paint on the useless dope with the paint who’s been painting things?

Because he a) isn't the only one in TE that has been painting things and b) paint is easy to obtain. If TE assumes this whole scenario is an attempt to weaken them by leading them into a non-explored cave before they were ready and after forcing them to expend resources attacking the CODzillas (as Xykon already is predisposed to think, given his strangely cautious approach to the fight), then the logical suspects is not MitD but the CODzillas.

GW

[Jason]

Oh, and I’ve seen at least one actual argument that “goblins are supposed to be Always Evil because that’s how D&D works”. I imagine that is an minority even among the “throw Redcloak under the bus” party, though.
Well, it is how D&D works that goblins are in the game primarily to be low-level opponents, and they are therefore usually evil. That doesn't mean players are justified in cruelly slaughtering non-combatant goblins, though.

[Peelee]

I guess we just disagree on this point.

I don't believe Team Evil will suspect MitD when OotS is right there front and center easier to blame.

If RC wasn't so hung up on his distrust and hatred of other races... maybe (I would give it 50/50 odds then if they were to try and place blame).
As it stands, I don't think they will make that leap.

I should point out that I'm not saying that I thin they will have a confrontation with the MitD over this just yet. But I do think that they will figure its more him and less the Order (at the very least, Redcloak will, since there's no tactically logical way I can think of for the Order to do it and then immediately give up the game for zero benefit, and Reddie is a very tactical thinker). I think it will heighten distrust that will have payoff later.

[Petrocorus]

The threads keep get locked because people seem to have trouble separating their feelings about real world racism from the fictional goblin suppression subplot and things keep getting too heated.


Well, there are indeed some people who read the comic through their real-life political lens.
I remember notably the threads about Sidgi's potential regeneration being quite heated, for this reason notably.

The more recent threads in the 5E forum about Tasha's new racial rules got quite heated too, for the same reason.

[danielxcutter]

Well didn’t Rich specifically state that the goblinoid subplot was about real-life racism? Also maybe there was more than one thread but wasn’t it closed off partly because we got off-topic and wandered into sensitive stuff?

[Ionathus]

I should point out that I'm not saying that I thin they will have a confrontation with the MitD over this just yet. But I do think that they will figure its more him and less the Order (at the very least, Redcloak will, since there's no tactically logical way I can think of for the Order to do it and then immediately give up the game for zero benefit, and Reddie is a very tactical thinker). I think it will heighten distrust that will have payoff later.

If I were Team Evil, I would just assume that the Order has been secretly misleading us with the paint while they wait to gather their strength. MitD already planted the idea that this team is capable of splitting their forces (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) so I'd figure the paint was just a delay until everyone arrived.

Maybe some members only arrived today, and they didn't feel comfortable revealing themselves until the team was 100% ready for a possible fight?

It's not an incredibly plausible plan, but were I in their shoes I'd default to that assumption rather than believe the MitD has had a Heel-Face turn.