Servant of the Fallen + Heretic of the Faith = no consequences?

[Conradine]

If a character takes the Servant of the Fallen feat to gain power from a dead god, then the Heretic of the Faith to strain from the deity's alignment, favored weapon, domains and code of conduct...

does that means he can do more or less whatever he wants, since his dead patron will never send agents to stop him or revoke his powers since he's, well... dead?

[Venger]

Pretty much. You're paying 2 feats for this, so it's hardly game breaking. If your gm wants to give you trouble you might run into other people who are worshipping the same deity you are and disagree with how to do it correctly, but since you're worshipping a dead god in the first place, it's unlikely they'll have much real power to bother you.

[hamishspence]

There's the afterlife consequence of taking Heretic of the Faith - being judged as one of the False. Even if the deity isn't going to judge you, Kelemvor is.

[weckar]

Doesn't Initiate of Amaunator rather assume this combo?

[Venger]

There's the afterlife consequence of taking Heretic of the Faith - being judged as one of the False. Even if the deity isn't going to judge you, Kelemvor is.

Doesn't servant of the fallen prevent you from being nailed to the wall? It lists being nailed to the wall under "normal," implying that you don't do that when you buy this feat.

[hamishspence]

Doesn't servant of the fallen prevent you from being nailed to the wall? Faithless and False are separate things Kelemvor judges you for.

The Faithless go in the Wall. The False don't. Their punishments vary enormously.

Some might just get jobs like "Escort visiting devils around the city" or "Patrol for intruders".

Others might get horribly tortured.

[Ramza00]

Sometimes I ask myself if FR is a horror setting.

[hamishspence]

Kelemvor used to be exceptionally nice to kind False, and exceptionally cruel to nasty False. But eventually he concluded that this was a bad thing.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sometimes I ask myself if FR is a horror setting.

It's not much better than Ravenloft, just more subtle.
Or maybe hiding it behind the veneer of epic adventures is more accurate.

[ATHATH]

Kelemvor used to be exceptionally nice to kind False, and exceptionally cruel to nasty False. But eventually he concluded that this was a bad thing.
What made him conclude that?

[Ramza00]

It's not much better than Ravenloft, just more subtle.
Or maybe hiding it behind the veneer of epic adventures is more accurate.

That is my sense as well. We are going to have an epic adventure to distract us from the fact this is the bad place. Doomed to suffer, thus we push our rock and we imagine ourselves in an epic adventure to distract ourselves from the rock.

[Venger]

I really hate faerun.

[Silent Alarm]

Sometimes I ask myself if FR is a horror setting.
It's a horror setting if you even spend a moment thinking of a world where cities once flew in the air, where the gods actively participate in mortal lives, and where there are mortals among you that can immediately turn you into a frog, or rat, or something horrific and face little to no consequences because mages are usually considered a




Kelemvor used to be exceptionally nice to kind False, and exceptionally cruel to nasty False. But eventually he concluded that this was a bad thing.
What made him conclude that?
The Evil Gods called foul saying how it was unfair that the Goddess of Magic, and the God of Death unfairly sided with Good diminishing the role of Evil in the world. In their defense, they had a very valid point. Good Heroes had no reason to fear death since they knew that if they died, they would be rewarded for their heroism and virtue, whereas Evil Villains had no motivation to actually BE Evil since no matter what, eventually they're going to die and be punished and tortured forever in some dark and dank hell. All of this more or less contributed to Kelemvor shifting more towards Neutral

[hamishspence]

What made him conclude that?

Lots of people taking stupid risks that get them killed, believing that because they "showed valor" he'd reward them in the afterlife.

That was one of the things he'd noticed.

[Saintheart]

Lots of people taking stupid risks that get them killed, believing that because they "showed valor" he'd reward them in the afterlife.

That was one of the things he'd noticed.

So he had a problem with optimisers who rely on RAW? :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

If it harms another deity in the process by weakening them overall.

As he put it at the time:

"I judged men as if I was yet a man. Good mortals have placed their faith in my fairness instead of in their gods, while the wicked have deserted their churches at the first sign of disfavor. My actions have undermined the worship of every god here, and I was wrong."

"My offence against you, Tempus, has been greatest of all. By favouring courage over cowardice, I have invited brave warriors to hurl their lives away, and given cowards good excuse to hide in their holes. I swear, that was never my intent.”

[Zanos]

Sometimes I ask myself if FR is a horror setting.
As much as any setting where the existence of Evil is a cosmic necessity, I suppose. Most settings will fall into this if you think about it hard enough, because Evil is part of the makeup of reality and enforced by cosmic powers.

[Saintheart]

As much as any setting where the existence of Evil is a cosmic necessity, I suppose. Most settings will fall into this if you think about it hard enough, because Evil is part of the makeup of reality and enforced by cosmic powers.

It's an explicit part of the Dragonlance setting, that's for sure. Outright declared as such by no other than the damn head of the pantheon of good gods.

[Batcathat]

I think most D&D settings (and probably most RPG settings in general) would be pretty horrifying from the point of view of anyone not a PC. Monsters and/or criminals around every corner, the world is about to end every other week, there are people who can single handedly defeat armies or warp reality, dozens of gods and other powerful beings messing around with things and so forth. And that's on top of the plentiful problems and dangers that comes with being a commoner in a medieval-esque society.

[Doctor Awkward]

That's not a far position from considering every Taoist philosophy to be a matter of existential horror. The idea that "light" (good) and "dark" (evil) are fundamental forces that are necessary in some sort of balance in order for reality to exist certainly isn't a concept that originated with Dungeons and Dragons.

[noob]

Kelemvor was not wrong in terms of dnd good vs evil since it did benefit the side of good considerably.(people had an incentive to be good)
He should have not rewarded recklessness(recklessness is just a bad idea in general) but overall it was a good thing for the good side.
It is just that Ao told to stop due to "cosmic balance" because Ao is an awful person and does not deserve its true neutral tag and should probably have the CE tag but gods have alignments unrelated to their actual behaviour(hence why there is so many good gods that are utterly infinitely super ultra awful and makes the moral standards of good so low there is only good aligned people (yes even the brain eating monster that wants only the enslavement of all the people who are not brain eating squids from his group and see the others as cattle) in the entire setting if we use them to measure good).
There is no evidence at all in the setting that having the evil deities weaken is a bad thing nor that high amounts of evil people are needed (and even if you reward good people and punish bad people the number of evil people will be non zero especially since there is tons of way for evil people to easily make a lot of powerful evil people or convert people to evil through force while it is not the case for good people).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think most D&D settings (and probably most RPG settings in general) would be pretty horrifying from the point of view of anyone not a PC. Monsters and/or criminals around every corner, the world is about to end every other week, there are people who can single handedly defeat armies or warp reality, dozens of gods and other powerful beings messing around with things and so forth.
To be fair most non-PCs only rarely have to deal with the worse aspects of living in a fantasy world. Sure, it's there, but it's simply a fact of life for people.
And they have equally powerful defenders to protect them and the benefit of knowing that good people get good afterlifes.

I think our point of view on the setting as players and DMs is rather biased as well since those are the aspects we mostly deal with. Good heroes need worthy enemies after all.
Most commoners won't even know of the existence of most of the worst threats, and gods (and player characters) willing they'll never have to deal with worse than maybe bandits or orc raids unless they go looking for it.

Yeah, there's thieves and maybe even mad wizards kidnapping people, but thieves and serial killers exist in our world too.
Most of the really dangerous conspiracies are generally busy dealing with all the other dangerous conspiracies instead of bothering the average commoner NPC.

The existence of divination magic also probably helps curb some of the worst stuff.
Most small-time criminals probably can't afford to get a full suite of anti-divination gear, so they have to keep their heads down and mostly stick to picking pockets or breaking and entering. Which is a whole lot more dangerous than in our world, seeing how everyone worth stealing from probably has at least some wards and traps around his home, quite a few of which can be lethal.

It's hardly perfect but it's not like people in most places have to expect to be murdered any second.


And that's on top of the plentiful problems and dangers that comes with being a commoner in a medieval-esque society.
I think here at least FR has it better. Good rulers are actually a thing, and clerical magic is a significant increase to quality of life.
Stuff like the church of Chauntea using magic to improve and protect harvests, general access to healing and disease removal (iirc those are generally free to worshippers, or at least affordable, among the good faiths), rulers who answer to actual gods for their actions (not a guarantee, sure, but if your ruler follows a good god you can generally expect to be treated fairly) and so on.

Yeah, living in Thay - or worse, drow society - is probably not great, but it's worth noting that that's hardly the only or even most likely option.

[noob]

To be fair most non-PCs only rarely have to deal with the worse aspects of living in a fantasy world. Sure, it's there, but it's simply a fact of life for people.
And they have equally powerful defenders to protect them and the benefit of knowing that good people get good afterlifes.

I think our point of view on the setting as players and DMs is rather biased as well since those are the aspects we mostly deal with. Good heroes need worthy enemies after all.
Most commoners won't even know of the existence of most of the worst threats, and gods (and player characters) willing they'll never have to deal with worse than maybe bandits or orc raids unless they go looking for it.

Yeah, there's thieves and maybe even mad wizards kidnapping people, but thieves and serial killers exist in our world too.
Most of the really dangerous conspiracies are generally busy dealing with all the other dangerous conspiracies instead of bothering the average commoner NPC.

The existence of divination magic also probably helps curb some of the worst stuff.
Most small-time criminals probably can't afford to get a full suite of anti-divination gear, so they have to keep their heads down and mostly stick to picking pockets or breaking and entering. Which is a whole lot more dangerous than in our world, seeing how everyone worth stealing from probably has at least some wards and traps around his home, quite a few of which can be lethal.

It's hardly perfect but it's not like people in most places have to expect to be murdered any second.


I think here at least FR has it better. Good rulers are actually a thing, and clerical magic is a significant increase to quality of life.
Stuff like the church of Chauntea using magic to improve and protect harvests, general access to healing and disease removal (iirc those are generally free to worshippers, or at least affordable, among the good faiths), rulers who answer to actual gods for their actions (not a guarantee, sure, but if your ruler follows a good god you can generally expect to be treated fairly) and so on.

Yeah, living in Thay - or worse, drow society - is probably not great, but it's worth noting that that's hardly the only or even most likely option.
If you look at the actions of most of the "good gods" you will notice a pattern of atrocities that makes you doubt they would judge fairly the rulers or push them toward the right actions.
Better hope your ruler is not following the rules of the gods and just doing their best (which is likely if they are not powerful since in that case you need to be really skilled at ruling to not have your kingdom fall to the tons of kingdom spanning threats that exists. You do not have time to accept corruption if you also fear to be replaced by in ice statue and also fear that the evil demonologists summon a Balor tomorrow that will probably make the money you gained from corruption moot).
You essentially have kingdoms falling under the rule of the skilled (someone ruling efficiently enough for their kingdom to manage threats and to avoid being replaced/killed and so on) or the rule of the powerful (ex: the red mages of thay: the ones ruling have a lot of power they can use to both stay alive and keep what they have) (not mutually incompatible: you can have someone skilled at ruling that is also powerful)
If someone is neither they get replaced by someone who is either after a catastrophe happens (which will eventually happen if they are not skilled or powerful) or when they are killed or have their kingdom taken by the neighbouring kingdom.
Or magically they survive for a whole life because they do not make setting consistency checks because let us not forget it is FR and not consistent realms.

[Necroticplague]

I think most D&D settings (and probably most RPG settings in general) would be pretty horrifying from the point of view of anyone not a PC. Monsters and/or criminals around every corner, the world is about to end every other week, there are people who can single handedly defeat armies or warp reality, dozens of gods and other powerful beings messing around with things and so forth. And that's on top of the plentiful problems and dangers that comes with being a commoner in a medieval-esque society.

Going by the RAW demographics and statblocks of monsters, you end up in a world where it's basically entirely possible to whole villages to just become complete ghost towns over the course of a single night. Whether it's multiply incorporeal undead against villages where the most magic is a single cleric with orisons and one turn undead use, or a just the sheer, raw might and hunger of more aggressive giants and trolls, many settlements are just one day away from being ruins.

[Doctor Despair]

Going by the RAW demographics and statblocks of monsters, you end up in a world where it's basically entirely possible to whole villages to just become complete ghost towns over the course of a single night. Whether it's multiply incorporeal undead against villages where the most magic is a single cleric with orisons and one turn undead use, or a just the sheer, raw might and hunger of more aggressive giants and trolls, many settlements are just one day away from being ruins.

I'd imagine a lot of settlements would then exist in areas that are separated by distance from the dens/hunting grounds of the more aggressive creatures (e.g. here there be dragonnes), such that it's not worth the effort to trounce all the way over to the village for a snack.

Alternatively, villages might spring up under the protection of stronger creatures like dragons? Protection in exchange for tribute and worship?

Honestly, though, that's also assuming an absence of divine intervention.

[noob]

I'd imagine a lot of settlements would then exist in areas that are separated by distance from the dens/hunting grounds of the more aggressive creatures (e.g. here there be dragonnes), such that it's not worth the effort to trounce all the way over to the village for a snack.

Alternatively, villages might spring up under the protection of stronger creatures like dragons? Protection in exchange for tribute and worship?

Honestly, though, that's also assuming an absence of divine intervention.

There is also adventurers.
And if the ruling cast is filled with backstabbing people it raise in levels and becomes strong enough to protect their villagers (and oppress them) despite them being humanoids.

[Silent Alarm]

Ao is an awful person and does not deserve its true neutral tag and should probably have the CE tag

Ao is "Status Quo" True Neutral because APPARENTLY (not sure if this is exactly canon anymore), he needs to be otherwise the world gets thrown into disarray. Ultimately the Gods aren't even worth being spat on most of the time in FR. How can Mystra be a "Good" goddess if she allows her magic to be used for unspeakably horrific acts? This is why Boccob at least makes sense as a deity.

[Saintheart]

Ao is "Status Quo" True Neutral because APPARENTLY (not sure if this is exactly canon anymore), he needs to be otherwise the world gets thrown into disarray. Ultimately the Gods aren't even worth being spat on most of the time in FR. How can Mystra be a "Good" goddess if she allows her magic to be used for unspeakably horrific acts? This is why Boccob at least makes sense as a deity.

And mind you, that's after Ao got so snitted with their behaviour he yeeted the whole lot, bar Helm, out of celestial rank and down to the Prime Material Plane during the Time of Troubles. Of course, said actions also then unleashed a few dozen beings of considerable magical power and with all the emotional maturity of two year olds on a world of people that couldn't meaningfully control them, so you have to wonder about Ao's own damn alignment too.

[redking]

Servant of the Fallen should allow you to violate your deity's code of conduct as long as you maintain a compatible alignment, because the deity, being dead, cannot intervene to deny you spells. While you can't be quite as heretical are Heretic of the Faith, you should be able to engage in all kinds of heterodoxy.

[hamishspence]

How can Mystra be a "Good" goddess if she allows her magic to be used for unspeakably horrific acts?

She used to Deny The Weave a lot. But got in enough trouble for it, that she stopped. After that, she tried to be Good in other ways.

[Falontani]

I wouldn't mind living in Eberron. It's mostly not as bad as the 1300s. But yea if your a commoner, it will suck in FR. Even if your in a safer spot, your qol will be nowhere near as good as being lower-middle class in most first world countries. I don't know much about any others than my own, but it's definitely entertaining!