Giant Puppet Spell Focus?

[igor140]

I'm DMing again for the first time in several years, and with a lot of new faces at the table. I've got a player wanting to play a Glamour Bard who uses a 7ft puppet as his arcane focus instead of an instrument; the idea being that they put on some kind of ventriloquist act to cast the magic.

I really like the originality and ingenuity of this, so I don't want to take that from him. I've played another campaign with this guy, and he gets really into his characters (voices, drawings, backstories, etc), which is all really good, and I want to encourage that.

My concern is that it's fairly likely to break in the course of a crazy battle. I can play a bit liberal with the "items worn or carried are immune to AoE damage" rule, but if someone attacks it directly...

I'm also concerned that he may try to use the puppet as a meat (wood?) shield during combat.

One way or the other, if/ when the puppet is attacked, I'm planning to treat it as a simple piece of wood that would break under pretty much any solid attack. For plot reasons, I don't want the broken puppet to lose all it's magic, but until it is repaired (which is definitely something I would let him do for some gold and some time), all of his casting abilities would be cut in half. So half DCs, half attack rolls, half damage, etc.

First off, is that reasonable? That seems like a pretty stiff penalty to a bard, but it also seems very reasonable as far as the liability of bringing a 7ft puppet on a battlefield.

Second, would he lose ALL his bard stuff? RAW, it seems that Bardic Inspiration is definitely a form of magic insofar as the rest of the bard's kit is as well. I'd rather not take everything from him if/ when it breaks... so is there a RAW justification for him keeping some of those features, or do I just get to dictate these things as I see fit?

Third, for roleplaying and social encounter purposes, he's going to be walking around with this gigantic terrifying wooden figure with a creepy, painted-on face marred by years of battle and hard use. Should I give him flat-out disadvantage on Persuasion and advantage on Intimidation, or just have NPCs react accordingly?

All the players have been told that they are foreigners in a strange land getting roped into someone else's civil war, and that strategy, investigation, and subterfuge would be important factors in this campaign. How much of a jerk should I be with this? I don't want to dissuade his creativity, but there need to be consequences to such an obvious, ostentatious spectacle wandering around.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm DMing again for the first time in several years, and with a lot of new faces at the table. I've got a player wanting to play a Glamour Bard who uses a 7ft puppet as his arcane focus Just tell him no. Refer them to the other arcane foci.
It's that easy. not every brain fart storm is worth circulating. :smallwink: Yes, there is such a thing as a poor idea. (See also the Ford Edsel ...)
But a hand puppet? (or something Charlie McCarthy sized (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brT6gXdhLWk)) or just a bit smaller). Work with them on that approach. It might fit your sense of verisimilitude better, and also get that whole puppet/bard scheme to work.

[jojosskul]

Personally, I'd just treat it as a very big, very odd spell focus that takes both his hands to use. Making him use two hands for a spell focus is already handicapping himself enough.

In addition, just like if he was using an instrument for his focus, I'd count it as "carried" if it was my table. If you do, however, want to allow it to be targetted (it's larger than most medium creatures, this is a perfectly reasonable position to take) and it is destroyed, the only penalty should be that he's now without his spell focus. If he can grab another one, great! If not he'll have trouble with spells with an M component for awhile (such as Hypnotic Pattern.)

Hell they could still flavor spells with a V component as coming from the broken dummy. Also, maybe allow him to repair it himself during rests if he takes something like Carpenter Tool proficiency.

Hope this helps!

[micahaphone]

First off, Hail Banjo, greatest of the gods. He grows in power every day, look how he has gone from hand puppet to 7 feet in size.

Secondly, I'd just tell the player directly "hey I'm totally down for the giant puppet spell focus, just know that it's not a shield, if it gets hit it will get broken. Might want to have a slide whistle or other backup focus. I won't target your puppet but if you use it as a shield or other stuff it will get broken."

I believe bardic inspiration would still be possible, it just requires noise/sound, even just shouting "hey you got this" works as inspiration.

I wouldn't set a hard and fast "disadvantage persuasion, advantage intimidation", take each scenario as it comes. I'd hope that the bard knows/learns that a giant puppet isn't appropriate for all situations, and they should fold it up / put it into a case / toss a cloth over it, strap it to their back, etc.

[JackPhoenix]

My concern is that it's fairly likely to break in the course of a crazy battle. I can play a bit liberal with the "items worn or carried are immune to AoE damage" rule, but if someone attacks it directly...

I'm also concerned that he may try to use the puppet as a meat (wood?) shield during combat.

Seems those are related. If he uses it as a cover, it's a valid target. If not, why would anyone waste time targetting it when there are actually dangerous enemies to stab first?


One way or the other, if/ when the puppet is attacked, I'm planning to treat it as a simple piece of wood that would break under pretty much any solid attack. For plot reasons, I don't want the broken puppet to lose all it's magic, but until it is repaired (which is definitely something I would let him do for some gold and some time), all of his casting abilities would be cut in half. So half DCs, half attack rolls, half damage, etc.

First off, is that reasonable? That seems like a pretty stiff penalty to a bard, but it also seems very reasonable as far as the liability of bringing a 7ft puppet on a battlefield.

Second, would he lose ALL his bard stuff? RAW, it seems that Bardic Inspiration is definitely a form of magic insofar as the rest of the bard's kit is as well. I'd rather not take everything from him if/ when it breaks... so is there a RAW justification for him keeping some of those features, or do I just get to dictate these things as I see fit?

No, it's not reasonable. Losing your focus means you can't cast spells with M components unless you have a replacement. It does nothing to your other spellcasting abilities. It also has no impact on any other bardic abilities, and RAW, Bardic Inspiration is definitely *not* magic. And repairing it is as simple as taking a minute (or few, depending on the extent of the damage) to cast Mending (which, notably, has a M component of its own).


Third, for roleplaying and social encounter purposes, he's going to be walking around with this gigantic terrifying wooden figure with a creepy, painted-on face marred by years of battle and hard use. Should I give him flat-out disadvantage on Persuasion and advantage on Intimidation, or just have NPCs react accordingly?

All the players have been told that they are foreigners in a strange land getting roped into someone else's civil war, and that strategy, investigation, and subterfuge would be important factors in this campaign. How much of a jerk should I be with this? I don't want to dissuade his creativity, but there need to be consequences to such an obvious, ostentatious spectacle wandering around.

Appropriate reactions from NPCs, yes. Universal disadvantage, no.

[igor140]

Thanks for the replies!

I'm so used to the way that 5e just hands out foci that I entirely forgot about material components >_> (And my last few characters have been rogue, monk, and hexblade, none of whom need to worry about a focus.)

So that will work fine.

Also, not doing straight advantage/ disadvantage on Persuasion/ Intimidation makes more sense; it also opens up a lot more flexibility for different NPCs to respond differently.

[Silly Name]

I'd be far more concerned about hauling the thing around, really. Yes, you can handwave away the silliness of fitting the 7ft puppet through the inn's door (it happens, just don't devote time to it, think of it as background gag), but when they're walking through a dungeon hallway or crawling on cavern floor? Would be an huge hassle. And don't get me started on climbing on swimming!

I would be very tempted to shoot this down and suggest a more standard-sized ventriloquist puppet, but you may also want to make it clear with the player that carrying a 7ft wooden puppet around would be quite bothersome for his character.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would be very tempted to shoot this down and suggest a more standard-sized ventriloquist puppet, but you may also want to make it clear with the player that carrying a 7ft wooden puppet around would be quite bothersome for his character. or, require that the PC is a Goliath. :smallbiggrin:

[igor140]

I'd be far more concerned about hauling the thing around, really. Yes, you can handwave away the silliness of fitting the 7ft puppet through the inn's door (it happens, just don't devote time to it, think of it as background gag), but when they're walking through a dungeon hallway or crawling on cavern floor? Would be an huge hassle. And don't get me started on climbing on swimming!

I would be very tempted to shoot this down and suggest a more standard-sized ventriloquist puppet, but you may also want to make it clear with the player that carrying a 7ft wooden puppet around would be quite bothersome for his character.

This was my initial response to the player. After going back and forth with him a couple times throughout the day, I think it's based off of some anime (a lot of his characters are). I'm working on a weird subset of rules that will apply to it, but I've made it very clear that it will be a hassle to deal with, and it will get broken (I'm using a homebrew tweak for cover mechanics... probably nothing new, but I've never seen it in a book).

He won't be able to hide it, it occupies an open space within 5ft him (he can choose where, but it has to be SOMEWHERE), and it's going to be very, very conspicuous in a campaign where anonymity would otherwise be very valuable.

There are some more intricate details I'm working in, but there will be pros and cons. I'm going to make it clear that I don't think this is a good idea, but he's free to choose it under these stipulations.

[AHF]

I'd just tell the player directly "hey I'm totally down for the giant puppet spell focus, just know that it's not a shield, if it gets hit it will get broken. Might want to have a slide whistle or other backup focus. I won't target your puppet but if you use it as a shield or other stuff it will get broken."

This is how I'd handle it. Most musical instruments are pretty breakable but that never seems to be an issue for bards. I'd largely treat it as a reskinned traditional foci where he can't use it as a shield, etc. without consequences but if he just wants to act out something with the puppet instead of blowing on a set of pan pipes then have at it. No reason to do extra targeting or complications around it if he is going to use it the same as a traditional foci just with a different flavor.

[Mercureality]

Just tell him no. Refer them to the other arcane foci.
It's that easy. not every brain fart storm is worth circulating. :smallwink: Yes, there is such a thing as a poor idea. (See also the Ford Edsel ...)
But a hand puppet? (or something Charlie McCarthy sized (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brT6gXdhLWk)) or just a bit smaller). Work with them on that approach. It might fit your sense of verisimilitude better, and also get that whole puppet/bard scheme to work.

Or, let him use puppet(s) as his bardic instrument, because that's cool? Not one, giant 7ft puppet, but puppetry in general. As for his focus, I agree that a giant 7 ft creepy puppet just doesn't make sense. But, perhaps the focus itself is a mystical eye that he slots into each puppet that enables him to use it as a focus? (There's a delightfully eerie image here of a gloomy wagon interior, festooned with dozens of limp puppets, ranging from a tiny princess in a frothy pink dress, to a looming, scarecrow-esque apparition. All of them have one thing in common: they are missing their left eye.)

Otherwise I see no issue with using different sized puppets to make the magic work. A bard could conceivably use an instrument of any size to use as a focus, provided they have proficiency no? Excepting portability, a pipe organ would work just as well as a flute, though perhaps a cello is a more apt comparison in this case.

Otherwise I wouldn't let him do anything with his puppets that another bard couldn't do with a musical instrument. Same mechanics, different flavor. When players try to insist on different mechanics to go with their crazy ideas, I generally say no. "My cool idea needs special mechanics" usually isn't a flavor consideration, it's a way of conniving for more power. In this case, the 7ft puppet should provide neither cover nor a shield--unless they want to get shield proficiency somehow and re-flavor the shield into the puppet. I'd be fine with that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or, let him use puppet(s) as his bardic instrument, because that's cool? Not one, giant 7ft puppet, but puppetry in general.
I like how you approach this. Nice one. :smallsmile:

[da newt]

I would suggest treating it exactly the same way you would if he said his focus was a base drum, cello, tuba, or any other large instrument. Or the same way you treat the wizard's silly pointed hat or any other object your PC's carry that isn't designed to stand up to melee (like a long bow or Xbow).

Do your PC's rations, water skins, oil in clay pots, tent poles, scrolls, lanterns, and other things take damage during battles? Does the Fighter's wooden shield catch on fire and get smashed to bits by the giant's hammer? Do bow strings snap mid battle? Why would you impose special rules on the puppet that did not apply to everything else? If you are playing gritty realism, then yeah - stuff will get broken. If you are playing normal fantasy, nothing breaks - we suspend belief.

Most puppets and muppets made to be operated by one person are very light even if they are large. It will be super conspicuous and require two hands to operate, but normal walking around is no big deal. I'm hoping he plans to have a way to pack it up when not in use though.

[Grey Watcher]

(There's a delightfully eerie image here of a gloomy wagon interior, festooned with dozens of limp puppets, ranging from a tiny princess in a frothy pink dress, to a looming, scarecrow-esque apparition. All of them have one thing in common: they are missing their left eye.)

A Princess Peach Amiibo and one of the animatronics from Five Nights at Freddy's?

[igor140]

Weirdly enough, after talking to the player, he wants me to be brutal about this. So we're tweaking a couple rules, but in short he cannot use anything other than the puppet as a focus, it can indeed break in combat (if it's attacked directly).

I am going to let him use it as cover, but based upon how I'm doing cover in this campaign, it will definitely get hit and break.

When it breaks, he wants me to impose the 1/2 DC/ attack bonus/ damage/ etc penalty. I'm going to give him early and easy access to some lodestones for Mending... but this is basically the system he wants: badass focus he can use as a one-time shield, but cripples him if it's broken.

I also told him if he gets sick of having to fix it constantly and not being able to use magic effectively while it's down, we can find a way for him to train under a more traditional bard to be able to use other foci.

All told, I'm pretty excited about this character. I still think the risks outweigh the benefits, but that's what the player wanted. I suggested Valor or Swords instead of Glamour... but he actually insisted on changing it to Lore. So this will be interesting.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses!

[PhantomSoul]

When it breaks, he wants me to impose the 1/2 DC/ attack bonus/ damage/ etc penalty. I'm going to give him early and easy access to some lodestones for Mending... but this is basically the system he wants: badass focus he can use as a one-time shield, but cripples him if it's broken.

I also told him if he gets sick of having to fix it constantly and not being able to use magic effectively while it's down, we can find a way for him to train under a more traditional bard to be able to use other foci.


Or just a smaller puppet that will mean he doesn't stop having access to a focus after the first round... there are lots of M spells!