D&D 5e Base Class Contest XIII Chat Thread

[MoleMage]

Welcome to the chat thread for the thirteenth Base Class Competition for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable).

Current Contest: Based in Science (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620836-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XIII-Based-in-Science)

Voting Thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624021-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-XIII-Voting-Thread&p=24846131#post24846131

1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556338-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-I-Who-needs-Swords-OR-Sorcerery), won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560208-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-expect-a-low-Margin-of-Terror), Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565360-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-III-The-Elements-and-not-the-periodic-ones-(probably-)!), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

4th contest: Does Not Meet Expectations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570496-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Does-Not-Meet-Expectations), won with a tie by Molemage with the Destined and Pygmybatrider's Mesmer

5th contest: Time to Chill out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576131-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Time-to-Chill-Out&p=23567807#post23567807), won by Molemage with the Wintreborn

6th contest: The Monster Mash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581138-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-VI-The-Monster-Mash), won with a three-way tie by Molemage with the Golem, theVoidWatches with the Lycanthrope, and daemonaetae with the Elemental Scion

7th contest: Remix Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587919-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VII-Remix-Mastery&p=23906232#post23906232), won by KOLE with the Ranger Remixed

8th contest: Contest VIII: Magic Without Slots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594571-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VIII-Magic-Without-Slots&p=24070927#post24070927), won by MoleMage with the Cultist

9th contest: It's Time for Time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600537-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IX-It-s-Time-for-Time&p=24361802#post24361802), won by MoleMage with the Clockwinder

10th contest: Blast from the Past (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?606841-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-X-Blast-from-the-Past), won by PairO'DiceLost with the Martial Adept

11th contest: Contest XI: Signature Creation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612097-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XI-Signature-Creation&p=24502355#post24502355) won by MoleMage with the Chef

12th contest: Contest XII: Hybrid Vigor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616515-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XII-Hybrid-Vigor) won by MoleMage with the Witch



1) The class you homebrew should fit the theme. You can interpret the theme as broadly as you like without risk of disqualification, but doing so may reduce your chances of earning votes during the voting period.
2) You may only create one base class. If you create more than one class then you must choose which one to enter and remove all the others from this thread and the contest (making them invalid) . If you do not specify which one you favor by the time voting begins, all of your content is invalid.
3) When you submit your class you must create a post on this thread which either has the content or holds a link to it. You may also optionally create one other individual thread for your class on the homebrew design sub-forum. If it is found that you have revealed your class on another site or on another thread than one on the homebrew design sub-forum, your entry will be considered invalid. If you do make a specific thread for you class, please mention its involvement to the competition in that thread. If you use external formatting resources such as Homebrewery, or GMBinder it is recommended that you also create a PDF of the content and share it here.
4) You may use other homebrew content (such as feats, spells, magical items and monsters) or even features to supplement your class, provided you have permission from the original creator and provide links to the source. Failure to receive permission from the original creation will disqualify you from entry in the current contest.
5) Your class must have fully completed mechanics and descriptions for it to be valid. Entries are due by 11:59 PM Central Time on the deadline. Any submissions after this point are invalid. No changes can be made to your class while voting is taking place. Failure to comply with the previous rule will result in disqualification.
6) Any content which has been declared invalid by the rules above cannot be voted for, but you may decide to remove it from the contest and create another class instead. If you are disqualified then you are not allowed to enter any more homebrew for this competition, though you may still vote and later enter the next competition.
7) Please note that misunderstandings occur, if you break a rule which results in disqualification it might be excused if you can convince the group that it was a result of confusion over the rules.

Contests stay up for 8 weeks unless an extension is requested by participants. Voting threads then go up for 3 weeks before the next contest begins.


Dragons
Heroes from Myths
Partial Casters
Divine Judgment
Other Media
Breakfast Cereal Mascots

Also note that themes that have not been used in at least six contests (anything up to Remix Mastery) are also eligible for voting.

[Edea]

Oof, this one looks hard.

Science is basically the study of the behavior/structure of the physical world through observation and experimentation. Technology is applying the results of this study in a meaningful way.

Well, gotta be honest, but this just sounds like how a bog-standard Wizard operates from the perspective of D&D, and making something 'technopunk' seems overly anachronistic to default setting expectations (and I really don't want to pilfer Starfinder for mechanics). Even the Artificer's a bit of a brow-raiser outside of Eberron.

I got nothin', at the moment. Will wait to see some examples before trying, I think.

[MoleMage]

Oof, this one looks hard.

Science is basically the study of the behavior/structure of the physical world through observation and experimentation. Technology is applying the results of this study in a meaningful way.

Well, gotta be honest, but this just sounds like how a bog-standard Wizard operates from the perspective of D&D, and making something 'technopunk' seems overly anachronistic to default setting expectations (and I really don't want to pilfer Starfinder for mechanics). Even the Artificer's a bit of a brow-raiser outside of Eberron.

I got nothin', at the moment. Will wait to see some examples before trying, I think.

Consider that the theme is also open to classes which are based after some scientific principle, but which themselves are not science-y. You could make a gravity-master or entropy-mancer, something like that. Magnetic powers.

I'm probably going to try to do a Botanist as a minion class that summons short-term attack plants, myself.

[Old Harry MTX]

Uff! Dropped my entry! I feel lighter now!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Actually, a Super Scientist ala Venture Bros. Might not be a bad idea. Mixing chemistry and technobabble with a loose condition application theme for buffs and debuffs. Skip spellcasting altogether.

Have an unlimited resource called Genius, but for every point you spend you also gain Madness, if you hit a threshold your subclass has a flaw, so maybe a chemist Mr. Hydes out while a Physicist explodes?

Features are Principles like Principle of Motion/Conservation etc maybe allowing you to use your other feature as a way to force movement or store damage types as fuel... , and Contraption or Concoction based on subclass. Concoctions aren’t just potions but also cheap if unstable imitations of Silver Adamantine etc.

Contraptions are straight BS like Doc Octopus arms that just add action options like a monster stat block would. You invest Genius into them and roll a failure die each use. The failure eats Genius until there’s 0. If you roll a 1 on the fail die and on any d20 roll while using it, it explodes.


I’m immediately in love with this idea.

[Old Harry MTX]

It is obvious that the Pilot's gadgets (here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24762910&postcount=2) and here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24762914&postcount=3)) are Open Source for anyone who wants to use them, in whichever way.

[MoleMage]

Baseline Botanist is up. The core features should be pretty much stable at this point; subclasses and cultivars are still to come. My hope is to have around 20-25 cultivars by the time it's done, with at least two or three exclusives for each subclass.

[Old Harry MTX]

Baseline Botanist is up. The core features should be pretty much stable at this point; subclasses and cultivars are still to come. My hope is to have around 20-25 cultivars by the time it's done, with at least two or three exclusives for each subclass.

Finished to read it right now, and I like the concept!

Just few words:
Natural Remedy seems to me slightely OP, expecially when you start to have more dice to roll. I haven't done the math, so I might be wrong, but it feels like it have a higher cure output than lay on hands, that also restores its cure pool after each long rests instead of short ones.

Cultivars are cool, I like alternative mechanics like that one! But maybe the damage should scale with the Botanist or player level, like cantrips. Maybe getting a bonus only at 11th level?

Also, you need utility cultivars, like someone that sprouts and became an improvised shelter, or ivy to climb walls, or small bushes that produces berries with various effects...

[theVoidWatches]

I'm having second thoughts about my initial idea for a warlock-shaped Mad Scientist, mainly because... well, I like unique mechanics for classes, and my draft is shaping up to feel very much like a reflavored Warlock. Being able to lend out cantrip-equivalents and invocation-equivalents is cool, and prepared casting instead will also feel different, but... I dunno, I'm not sure what it could bring that's actually new.

Thoughts? Ideas? Opinions?

[MoleMage]

Finished to read it right now, and I like the concept!

Just few words:
Natural Remedy seems to me slightely OP, expecially when you start to have more dice to roll. I haven't done the math, so I might be wrong, but it feels like it have a higher cure output than lay on hands, that also restores its cure pool after each long rests instead of short ones.

Cultivars are cool, I like alternative mechanics like that one! But maybe the damage should scale with the Botanist or player level, like cantrips. Maybe getting a bonus only at 11th level?

Also, you need utility cultivars, like someone that sprouts and became an improvised shelter, or ivy to climb walls, or small bushes that produces berries with various effects...

I am going to bump natural remedy's frequency of use back to long rests and probably fewer charges. I forgot to put that in the last update.

Cultivars don't scale in damage right now because I was afraid of giving scaling to something that takes no action to activate once it's out, but I removed the bonus action summon feature so it is probably safe to add some back in.

Utility cultivars are planned. I wrote a temp HP and an area denial one last night and will be adding a cover one for sure.

[MoleMage]

I'm having second thoughts about my initial idea for a warlock-shaped Mad Scientist, mainly because... well, I like unique mechanics for classes, and my draft is shaping up to feel very much like a reflavored Warlock. Being able to lend out cantrip-equivalents and invocation-equivalents is cool, and prepared casting instead will also feel different, but... I dunno, I'm not sure what it could bring that's actually new.

Thoughts? Ideas? Opinions?

I think I'd have to see it to be sure. Also keep in mind how much of warlock comes from its subclasses, so you could have a lot of variety just by changing a few of those.

[Breccia]

I'm having second thoughts about my initial idea for a warlock-shaped Mad Scientist, mainly because... well, I like unique mechanics for classes, and my draft is shaping up to feel very much like a reflavored Warlock. Being able to lend out cantrip-equivalents and invocation-equivalents is cool, and prepared casting instead will also feel different, but... I dunno, I'm not sure what it could bring that's actually new.

Thoughts? Ideas? Opinions?

If I might offer an opinion, I belive 5E has several "Warlord"-style abilities in which you basically let someone act for you. "Commander's Strike" is my favorite.

I think there would be a problem if one character just gave out (powerful) attacks to others which could be used later, even if the first character wasn't even in the room. Basically, nobody wants to play Q from James Bond, even if they want to play Bond with Q's gadgets. With only one notable exception, Octopussy, Q basically never took the field and never got the girl.

This will be hard to justfiy from a realistic standpoint. Why would a potion or a sword fail to work, without the inventor in the room?

There are some work-arounds.
1) Each Mad Scientist can only create so many at a time, but can replenish quickly. A player who stocks up in town but doesn't bring the Mad Scientist with them will quickly run out of "cantrips".
2) The Mad Scientist is much better with their own toys, and can improve the effect with instructions for users that can see and hear them.
3) The Mad Scientist's toys are basically impossible to use without Proficiency or yelled instructions.
4) The toys spoil quickly without constant care, which only a Mad Scientist can provide.
5) The toys have a high fumble risk, and a Mad Scientist in the room/using the toy reduces or removes that risk.
6) This one is my favorite, but might not be yours, and would be a major class design issue.

The Mad Scientist's toys pull from a pool of random effects. The Mad Scientist can reduce that pool's size, making the outcome more in line with what they want.

Imagine for example, the Mad Scientist's "spell list" is the following:
1) 1d8 acid
2) 1d8 fire
3) 1d8 cold
4) 1d8 poison
5) Heal 1d8
6) Target gets +2 AC this turn
7) Target gets +2 saving throws this turn
8) Target gets +2 to attack rolls next turn

Now imagine, if you had one of those. Do you throw it at an ally or enemy?

Now imagine, if the Mad Scientist was in the room, you could cross off 2 of the possible effects and roll a 1d6 instead. Rather helps the odds, doesn't it?

Now imagine, if the Mad Scientst uses the toy, they can cross off 3 or even 4 of the possible effects.

You have a lot of options, but simply put, please don't design a character class whose main purpose is to hand their "spells" to another player and then stay home playing Dragon Chess with the cat. At least make a character whose main purpose is to say "NO NO NO, pull the YELLOW wire, THEN throw!"

[theVoidWatches]

That's a good point. I'm not thinking that the entire point of the class is to pass out stuff though - just that it's something interesting that they could do. If it's sharply limited... maybe it's something they can do for ten minutes at a time before the thing they passed out stops working until a short rest? That way it's not a thing you do constantly.

[Old Harry MTX]

I'm having second thoughts about my initial idea for a warlock-shaped Mad Scientist, mainly because... well, I like unique mechanics for classes, and my draft is shaping up to feel very much like a reflavored Warlock. Being able to lend out cantrip-equivalents and invocation-equivalents is cool, and prepared casting instead will also feel different, but... I dunno, I'm not sure what it could bring that's actually new.

Thoughts? Ideas? Opinions?

Yes, as you have described it now it looks like a reflavored warlock, but you can change it in various ways, without going crazy in inventing completely new mechanics. For example, you could equip yourself with a limited number of gadgets at a time, based on your level, and each of them could have a distinct number of charges. Gadgets could have cooldown or warmup times, or unlock strongest effects if you use them for more subsequent turns, could be turrets or drones, or create environmental interactions.

Breccia's observation makes sense, but you could just solve it by limiting the number of gadgets donated to 1, while you can have equipped many more.

[Breccia]

That's a good point. I'm not thinking that the entire point of the class is to pass out stuff though - just that it's something interesting that they could do. If it's sharply limited... maybe it's something they can do for ten minutes at a time before the thing they passed out stops working until a short rest? That way it's not a thing you do constantly.

Cool :)

The idea of having "power" in some way they lend out is definitely still a good one, and should come in many flavors. My concern was polluted with history. In my (cough) years of playing games, I've played and/or played with a PC whose primary role was to do this like ten times, and sadly, it never really worked out as well as hoped. It's a common narrative theme, no question, but in a game situation that's not enough.

Looking forward to the result!

[Breccia]

So I just uploaded the Chirurgeon (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ClKLVM8XA3eB) in the contest thread.

I know, the Field Medic is an idea that's come up, oh, "once or twice" on these forums and in these contests, but I haven't tried it yet, so I figured, now's good. I actually think the base class contest was the right place to put this, since it gave me options to make archetypes to broaden the class's overall abilities.

It's most heavily based on the Rogue of course, but I took pains to make it play significantly differently. Please let me know what you think -- it's certainly a lot more detailed than my last contest entry, currently sitting in last place where it belongs.

[MoleMage]

Mini-update for the Botanist.


Natural Remedy now gets fewer overall charges and recovers on long rest. It should be roughly competitive with Lay on Hands, though it will be ahead or behind at various levels since its progression isn't as smooth.
Added Cultivar Potency. It lets your sproutlings add your Intelligence to damage once per activation (per sproutling, so at 11th level, you get it twice per round, and at 17th level, three times once you're set up).
Upon research into ferns, I discovered that as far as dynamic themes go, ferns are boring. So I swapped Field of Pteridology out for Field of Dendrology. It is keeping the mystic themes, while changing out medicine for sturdiness. All Dendrology exclusive cultivars produce large sproutlings instead of medium (a trait shared with the generally-available Corpse Flower).



I have also introduced a few new cultivars.

Blastnut tree is Dendrology exclusive. It flings small explosive seeds and is loosely inspired by eucalyptus.
Chillbloom is an area denial plant inspired by nothing in particular.
Lashwillow is a dendrology exclusive with an exceptional 15-foot reach on its melee attack.
Shade Frond creates an area of foliage that attempts to blend in with local foliage, looking as natural as possible. It's thick enough to hide in and can be activated to assist in hiding.
Vileyew is the last Dendrology exclusive. It deals poison and piercing damage to two nearby targets when activated.
Vitalily Grants a decent boost of temporary hit points to a nearby target, but the hit points are lost when the lily is dismissed or destroyed. Good for shoring up your frailer party members.


My week is looking pretty hectic overall, but I'm going to try and sit down and write feedback on everything no later than Thursday. No promises, but I'm going to try.

[Old Harry MTX]

Mini-update for the Botanist.


Natural Remedy now gets fewer overall charges and recovers on long rest. It should be roughly competitive with Lay on Hands, though it will be ahead or behind at various levels since its progression isn't as smooth.
Added Cultivar Potency. It lets your sproutlings add your Intelligence to damage once per activation (per sproutling, so at 11th level, you get it twice per round, and at 17th level, three times once you're set up).
Upon research into ferns, I discovered that as far as dynamic themes go, ferns are boring. So I swapped Field of Pteridology out for Field of Dendrology. It is keeping the mystic themes, while changing out medicine for sturdiness. All Dendrology exclusive cultivars produce large sproutlings instead of medium (a trait shared with the generally-available Corpse Flower).



I have also introduced a few new cultivars.

Blastnut tree is Dendrology exclusive. It flings small explosive seeds and is loosely inspired by eucalyptus.
Chillbloom is an area denial plant inspired by nothing in particular.
Lashwillow is a dendrology exclusive with an exceptional 15-foot reach on its melee attack.
Shade Frond creates an area of foliage that attempts to blend in with local foliage, looking as natural as possible. It's thick enough to hide in and can be activated to assist in hiding.
Vileyew is the last Dendrology exclusive. It deals poison and piercing damage to two nearby targets when activated.
Vitalily Grants a decent boost of temporary hit points to a nearby target, but the hit points are lost when the lily is dismissed or destroyed. Good for shoring up your frailer party members.


My week is looking pretty hectic overall, but I'm going to try and sit down and write feedback on everything no later than Thursday. No promises, but I'm going to try.

Good job! You have also added a level prerequisites, right? Nice move! IMHO you still need more entries to use outside of combat, but the new ones are cool.

What about something dandelion-like that gives you a sort of feather fall? Or something like poison ivy's spores capable to charm a creature and give you, who knows, advantage on charisma checks against it?

Also, I dream of a subclass that gradually gives to the PC plant traits, maybe capable to sprouts cultivar directly on itself...

[MoleMage]

I'm only two days behind (NaNoWriMo is taking a lot of my mental energy this month), but feedback time is now!


Alright, so it's engineering meets golemancy. Makes sense, fits the theme, should be pretty fun.


The subclasses being multiclassing is a little weird to think of but I'll see how it works in practice I guess.
Hit points: that's a pretty skinny class. I assume the golem is supposed to handle most of this while you're piloting it?
Saving throws: None? And skills get only one? If you gave them specialization at first level maybe, but I'd rather see them get unique features here.
Golem: The section that explains getting extra hit dice should be closer to the hit dice in the description.
Golem: I don't like that it's locked into small size characters. Such narrow restrictions (using published races, that gives you only...four options?) are generally against 5e's design aesthetic. You don't need to make the golem larger for medium creatures, it could just be a powered golem suit instead of a golem with a piloting cockpit inside.
Engineering: Mechanics seem fine, depending on the actual gadgets. Though I'm not certain why you didn't go with a standard Save DC calculation of 8 + Stat + Prof.
I'm not sure what the point of Comfortable Suit is. Being forced to stay in seems like a non-penalty if there aren't any other penalties for staying in.
Pilot Specialization: After reading it, I think the mechanics are probably okay, but I'm not a fan. I'd rather have unique traits for golems that mimic different archetypes (martial golem, spellcasting golem, sneaky golem) as subclasses instead. It also isn't clear what happens when you reach 8th and 16th level; do you just get nothing from Pilot Specialization if your chosen class only has an ASI at that level?




Gadgets: 1st level looks pretty weak. No weapons over 1d6 and no cantrips that don't cost steam points. On a class that has to wait for 2nd level to get saving throw proficiencies...I don't think I'd every play a solo class pilot unless I was starting at at least level 2.
Gadgets: Magitronic Ward is fairly weak. I'd give it a default starting value after regaining Steam Points at the very least.
Gadgets: In general any gadget that is duplicating a cantrip should probably not have a cost (or maybe a one-time cost to use that cantrip for a minute). The exception are ones where you can use the cantrip in a way that wouldn't normally be possible by action economy (like using Shocking Grasp on a melee attack from Taser Smite).
Gadgets: You have several gadgets that replicate class features. I feel like those clash with your current version of Pilot Specialization. For example, most of the spell duplicating gadgets are made redundant for a Wizard Specialization. On the other hand, Adrenal Injector for a Barbarian Specialization pilot is actually considerably stronger than for any other Specialization because you get the higher damage (and by level 4, the Reckless Attack) that synergize so well through barbarian.



Overall I think you have a good start, but the class is relying a bit too much on borrowing from other classes with Pilot Specialization. I'd like to see more of the "borrowing" shifted into gadgets, and unique builds for Pilot Specialization and some more identity features in the base class. I didn't do a careful read of every last gadget, but it seems like their Steam costs are a little steep.



This is what I'm going to name my alchemical Rogue subclass when I get around to writing it. It's such a fun word to say.


Formatting: On page 2 (at least in my browser), Medic's Rush is overlaid on top of the image, making it difficult to read.
Anatomic Knowledge's only mechanical benefits appear to be Expertise in Medicine and increased poison DC, though it looks like other features refer to its excluded creature types. I'd note it as something like "some of your other features refer to creatures that you have Anatomic Knowledge of" or something like that so that it's clear that this feature is meant to be referenced by others.
Bleeding Wound could have its wording trimmed a lot. The section about tracking creatures by their blood probably doesn't need to be explicitly called out, and you clarify that bludgeoning weapons can cause bleeding wound twice. The Medicine check also refers to a Standard Action, which is no longer used in 5e (they're either Actions or Bonus Actions).
Triage: A nice little bonus, but it could be stronger. Compare it to Bards' Song of Rest, which is healing on top of the hit dice healing instead of just raising the average roll of the hit dice healing. The bonus against disease is nice though.
For my preference, Extra Attack's and Ability Score Improvement's text is copied into homebrew that has it, just like it's listed in every base class in the PHB. We all know what they do though.
Critical Wounds doesn't seem to do anything. I assume Bleeding Wounds was updated since it was written. If not, Bleeding Wound only has one DC listed and it's for using Medicine to remove them.
Red Mist is an odd name for what it does. In my experience, that term refers to a blood spray from a violent attack, not a healing potion being aeresolized.
Anemic Wound's Poisoned duration should probably be "Until the Bleeding Wound expires", so that healing that stops the bleeding also stops the sickening.




Butcher: Gushing Wound could also be trimmed. "You can now apply Bleeding Wound with any type of melee weapon that isn't heavy, using a d6 for the damage of the bleeding instead of the weapon's die if it is not a Finesse weapon. Whenever you apply a Bleeding Wound it now lasts a number of rounds up to your proficiency bonus, instead of ending at the end of your victim's next turn. It can still be ended early by magical healing or a Medicine check." Since Gushing Wound inherits all of the Bleeding Wound upgrades anyway there's no need to categorize it as a separate thing.
Butcher: Blood in the Water. Temporary hit points do not stack already by default. Also, if you don't specify a duration for temp HP, it lasts until you complete a long rest.



Overall it's a cool class concept, but it falls a little short in combat until it gets Improved Bleeding Wound and Anemic Wound, and even those depend on targets with less than half health to work until level 18. In general, its features could be stronger, and I think maybe Gushing Wound's longer duration should be standard for the baseline Bleeding Wound, or that Bleeding Wound should be allowed to stack. Its support potential with the boosted poison DC and Field Medic crippling is pretty solid, so maybe it makes up for it, but the other two subclasses are completely dependent on having access to poison in-game (and the poison rules in the DMG are pretty sparse).

[Breccia]

I'm only two days behind (NaNoWriMo is taking a lot of my mental energy this month), but feedback time is now!


This is what I'm going to name my alchemical Rogue subclass when I get around to writing it. It's such a fun word to say.


Formatting: On page 2 (at least in my browser), Medic's Rush is overlaid on top of the image, making it difficult to read.
Triage: A nice little bonus, but it could be stronger. Compare it to Bards' Song of Rest, which is healing on top of the hit dice healing instead of just raising the average roll of the hit dice healing. The bonus against disease is nice though.




Thank you for your feedback.

When doing one of these, I generally err on the side of "too weak" than "too strong". I'd rather uptune than downtune -- I've seen too many OP classes over the years (not here really, but I've been playing for 30 years and I saw stupid OP stuff in the early nineties) so I'll likely make a few changes you suggested. And I have no problem cleaning up wording or clarifying.

However, it is my intention for Song of Rest and Triage to stack, and I don't see the Formatting error so I can't fix that. Sorry.

[MoleMage]

However, it is my intention for Song of Rest and Triage to stack, and I don't see the Formatting error so I can't fix that. Sorry.

It's probably on my end. Homebrewery looks different on different computers. When it's finished you might try making a PDF, usually solves it. It's a bit of pain during editing though (I must have made a dozen Alchemist PDFs).

[Breccia]

It's probably on my end. Homebrewery looks different on different computers. When it's finished you might try making a PDF, usually solves it. It's a bit of pain during editing though (I must have made a dozen Alchemist PDFs).

I've updated the file to this one (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ClKLVM8XA3eB).

I upped the damage a bit, specifically, removing the Con saving throw for Bleeding Wound so the damage is closer to the bonus damage of a ranger or warlock. Most of the cleanups you asked for were also added. I'll reserve other or more major changes utnil more feedback is given from other people.

[Old Harry MTX]

I'm only two days behind (NaNoWriMo is taking a lot of my mental energy this month), but feedback time is now!

Alright, so it's engineering meets golemancy. Makes sense, fits the theme, should be pretty fun.


The subclasses being multiclassing is a little weird to think of but I'll see how it works in practice I guess.

Yes, it's pretty weird, but as you may have guessed, I purposely ignored the normal dictates while creating this class. The goal is precisely to try to create a system, or more systems, outside the box, but still try to be able to make everything work organically with the rest.

Whether I succeeded, or that I will succeed after any changes, it is all to be seen ^^


Hit points: that's a pretty skinny class. I assume the golem is supposed to handle most of this while you're piloting it?
Saving throws: None? And skills get only one? If you gave them specialization at first level maybe, but I'd rather see them get unique features here.
Golem: The section that explains getting extra hit dice should be closer to the hit dice in the description.


Yes, I will change this part. I'm going to move the choice of specialization to 1st level, but getting only saving throws, skills and maybe, but i said maybe, proficencies, and starting with the actual features at 2nd level. Therefore, I specify right away that the golem's hit die is the same as the one of the chosen Specialization.

Maybe, in order not to have the first level of the class too loaded, I could consider creating a dedicated table for the golem, in which to move Steam Source, and the progressions of Steam Points and Footprints.


Golem: I don't like that it's locked into small size characters. Such narrow restrictions (using published races, that gives you only...four options?) are generally against 5e's design aesthetic. You don't need to make the golem larger for medium creatures, it could just be a powered golem suit instead of a golem with a piloting cockpit inside.

Yes, it's against 5e's design aesthetic, but it's also true that Racial Classes are a thing in the Homebrew Universe. Anyway, I'm considering this variant, tell me if you like it: Open the class to all races, and keep the "mech" feeling rather than just "ironman suit" giving the golem a trait similar to the Powerful Build of the old 3.5e Goliath.

However, I would like the golem to be as neutral as possible, while with this change I am afraid of giving too much a martial/brawler feeling. I have to study well how to do it.


Engineering: Mechanics seem fine, depending on the actual gadgets. Though I'm not certain why you didn't go with a standard Save DC calculation of 8 + Stat + Prof.

Because I want the base class to be as neutral as possible. If, hypothetically, I asserted the Save DC = 8 + Int + Prof, the specializations based on Intelligence would be an obligatory choice.


I'm not sure what the point of Comfortable Suit is. Being forced to stay in seems like a non-penalty if there aren't any other penalties for staying in.

This is almost a tribute to the old topic from which I took inspiration to create this class. Maybe it should be removed, or deepened to make it an effective penalty, but right now it have only a roleplay purpose.


Pilot Specialization: After reading it, I think the mechanics are probably okay, but I'm not a fan. I'd rather have unique traits for golems that mimic different archetypes (martial golem, spellcasting golem, sneaky golem) as subclasses instead. It also isn't clear what happens when you reach 8th and 16th level; do you just get nothing from Pilot Specialization if your chosen class only has an ASI at that level?

Yes, I realize it's such a strange mechanic that may not like, but at the moment I prefer to leave it as it is. Let's say that if you want to limit the subclasses to the three main archetypes you can use Generic Classes (warrior, expert, and spellcaster) as specializations, of which you can surely find examples around, or that I would have fun creating personally! ^^

As for the 8th and 16th level, yes, the idea is that if a class at the 4th and 8th level only provides the ASI, the relative specialization gives nothing, but the ASI is directly provided by the Pilot.
Perhaps for the sake of simplicity I could remove this level distinction and also remove the ASI provided by the Pilot at 8th and 16th level, getting them directly from the specialization. I think the whole thing would get cleaner.


Gadgets: 1st level looks pretty weak. No weapons over 1d6 and no cantrips that don't cost steam points. On a class that has to wait for 2nd level to get saving throw proficiencies...I don't think I'd every play a solo class pilot unless I was starting at at least level 2.

You're right. I will likely change the Acid Sprayer and Carpenter Torch by replacing the cost in Steam Points per use with a single allocated Steam Point.

Regarding Nail Gun and Punching Press I thought I would do this:
Nail Gun. By allocating a Steam Point you remove the loading property AND the damage die becomes 1d8.
Punching Press. By allocating a Steam Point the damage die becomes 1d8 and you get 3 charges. When you make a melee attack with it, after the attack roll, you can choose to expend 1 charge and deals an additional damage die. You recover all charges spent at the end of a short or long rest.

The aim would be to make Nail Gun and Punching Press weapons usable at all levels, also considering that they leave the hands free.


Gadgets: Magitronic Ward is fairly weak. I'd give it a default starting value after regaining Steam Points at the very least.

I was inspired by Arcane Ward. The idea is that a Pilot who specializes in Wizard (Abjurer), and who therefore has both Arcane Ward, whose life points depend on double the Wizard levels (ideally half Pilot level), and Magitronik Ward, whose life points depend on Pilot levels, does not have a bonus higher than that of a normal Wizard's Arcane Ward.

I will definitely change the text so that the ward is full when installed and automatically refills after each long rest, keeping the "charge via spells" mechanic for upkeep only.


Gadgets: In general any gadget that is duplicating a cantrip should probably not have a cost (or maybe a one-time cost to use that cantrip for a minute). The exception are ones where you can use the cantrip in a way that wouldn't normally be possible by action economy (like using Shocking Grasp on a melee attack from Taser Smite).

It can certainly be a way, perhaps keeping the mechanics of allocating a Steam Point to be able to use them.


Gadgets: You have several gadgets that replicate class features. I feel like those clash with your current version of Pilot Specialization. For example, most of the spell duplicating gadgets are made redundant for a Wizard Specialization. On the other hand, Adrenal Injector for a Barbarian Specialization pilot is actually considerably stronger than for any other Specialization because you get the higher damage (and by level 4, the Reckless Attack) that synergize so well through barbarian.

You know, the idea is precisely that of being able to replicate, within certain limits, mechanics typical of a class (metamagic, maneuvers, sneak attack, rage, auras ...) to other classes, to try to create interesting combinations. Yes, probably a Wizard, who has almost no limits to the number of spells known, can get less benefits from certain gadgets, but it must be considered that a Pilot only gets half the Wizard levels (and spell slots), and it is with gadgets that it compensates this slower progression.

I did not understand your note on Adrenal Injector instead. It may not be clearly written, but, as intended, the gadget gives to the Pilot the Rage feature that a Barbarian gets at 1st level, and, if it already has it, gives it only an extra use.

EDIT: I think I understand your point about Adrenal Injector. You were referring to the fact that only by specializing in the barbarian class you have a progression of Rage Damage, right? I rewrote it. I don't really like making lists, but it should be clearer now.


Overall I think you have a good start, but the class is relying a bit too much on borrowing from other classes with Pilot Specialization. I'd like to see more of the "borrowing" shifted into gadgets, and unique builds for Pilot Specialization and some more identity features in the base class. I didn't do a careful read of every last gadget, but it seems like their Steam costs are a little steep.

Thanks for all the advice! As I said, I'm still pretty sure to keep the Pilot Specialization mechanic, both because of its quirkiness and the combinations it can lead to.
I try to explain: Creating three subclasses that emulate the three basic archetypes is certainly feasible, but I am convinced that being able to choose a standard class binds the character in a direction with an identity, rather than just creating a cauldron of stronger gadgets.

However, I have in the works the creation of gadgets that emulate the religious effects of a cleric or a paladin, the otherworldly power of the warlock, and perhaps even the connection with nature of a druid or a ranger. The problem is the number, as I am trying to keep the same number of gadgets + upgrades for each part of the golem (currently 13 per part).

For the cost of Steam Points I agree that it is a bit high, even if they fill up after each long rest, and you still recover a number equal to your proficency bonus after each short rest, however I think I will increase the number. I also have to do further tests to see if the Footprints are enough or not.

[Old Harry MTX]

It's probably on my end. Homebrewery looks different on different computers. When it's finished you might try making a PDF, usually solves it. It's a bit of pain during editing though (I must have made a dozen Alchemist PDFs).

As far as I know, Homebrewery only works well with Chrome.


I've updated the file to this one (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ClKLVM8XA3eB).

I upped the damage a bit, specifically, removing the Con saving throw for Bleeding Wound so the damage is closer to the bonus damage of a ranger or warlock. Most of the cleanups you asked for were also added. I'll reserve other or more major changes utnil more feedback is given from other people.

As soon as I'm done making the changes suggested by MoleMage to the Pilot I should have time to have a look at your entry!

[Breccia]

As soon as I'm done making the changes suggested by MoleMage to the Pilot I should have time to have a look at your entry!

Thanks! And no rush, the party just started. I'll be looking over other entries soon myself.

[Old Harry MTX]

Hi guys.
I am considering making major changes to the gadget mechanics. My doubts are mainly related to the footprint points and the allocation of the steam points.

Although I like the mechanics of giving a footprint cost to each gadget, plus an additional cost based on the number of gadgets with the same position tag, I'm afraid that keeping track of all these variables could be tedious, how and perhaps more than preparing individually each spell slots of the bard. So I'm considering removing the position tag and relative additional cost from the gadgets.

Regarding the allocation of the steam points, I am concerned that the gadgets already have a fixed cost (the footprint), and therefore could be redundant. On the other hand, this adds a distinction to the effects of gadgets, and can lead to interesting choices by the player, who may prefer a build all aimed at instantaneous consumption of steam points, allocate all points and receive constant bonuses, or a middle ground between the two. I will probably tend to remove or decrease some allocation costs, or to increase the number of steam points available.

Alternatively, I am also considering combining footprint and steam points together, assigning to each gadget a cost in allocated points, and a possible instant cost at the time of use. This could simplify the mechanics a lot, and maybe I could consider keeping the additional cost due of position tags, but I have to do some tests.

EDIT - Here are the changes made:
Removed Positions Tags and Footprint Points.
Added Gadget Slots. From now on, each gadget takes up only one slot, similarly to the prepared spell lists of the Wizard or the Cleric.
Tweaked Gadgets Slots and Steam Points progressions.
Tweaked various allocated Steam Points requirements.


Now that I have removed the Position tags I also have much more freedom in creating new gadgets, I can't wait to go back to the workshop and get back to work!

[MoleMage]

I did another update of the Botanist last night. Should have subclass features now. Still need to make another half-dozen or so Cultivars before I'll consider it done but I'm feeling good about it.

EDIT: Wrote some more cultivars. Created the changes spoiler (includes yesterday's and today's).

Added features for all three subclasses.
Changed Cycle of Decay. No longer grants temporary hit points, but instead grants the ability to bolster the damage of one sproutling as a reaction when you or one of your sproutlings defeats a creature.
Made level prerequisites generally higher for cultivars that had them.

New Cultivar: Ancient Ginkgo (Paleobotany). Deals psychic damage.
New Cultivar: Tarspitter (Paleobotany). Deals fire damage and slows movement.
New Cultivar: Devil's Snare. Grapples and damages all creatures that share its space (including allies). Huge. Obvious reference here.
New Cultivar: Featherdown. Can grant one creature immunity to the next source of fall damage.
New Cultivar: Cat's Eye Creeper. Can grant two creatures darkvision.
New Cultivar: Riverbell. Can grant three creatures water breathing.
New Cultivar: Crushvine. Deals bludgeoning damage.
New Cultivar: Manticore Fern. Makes three ranged attacks, but then needs to recharge for a turn.
New Cultivar: Somnis Poppy. Makes creatures sleepy. Works similar to a sleep spell that builds up over time, though a creature can shake off the effects with an action.


With today's additions, I think I have a sufficient number of cultivars to be happy, though if I think of more I'll add them. The charm plant I did not include, partly because there's no way to balance at-will charm and partly because Cordyceps already covers the "direct control" niche and I don't want to diminish its role (especially since it's a Field exclusive).

Next up, the introductory paragraphs and quick build guide (Int, then Con/Dex or Wis if planning to take the Field of Dendrology).

[Old Harry MTX]

Made some fixes and added some new gadget to The Pilot:
Resonating Weapon: A mix between Shillelagh and Weapon Bond. Designed for gish.
Hydroponic Totem: Similar to other gadgets that replicate a handful of some similarly themed spells. In this case they are all related to nature. Unlike other gadgets, spells are not fixed but can be chosen at each upgrade, and can only be cast as a ritual.
Adaptive Camouflage: Minor changes. Now the effect does not end if you move, but you are visible while doing so.
Clockwork Idol: Replicates within certain limits the mechanics of Channel Divinity. It has different behaviors depending on whether or not the PC knows that feature.
Spell Amplifier: A boost to spellcasting.
Ray Gun: One per long rest, high costly in steam points, Disintegrate Spell. The gadget can break after use.
Diviner Navigator: I originally wanted to tie this gadget to Sputnik's Sidereal Gizmo, and call it Satellite Divinator, but it didn't suit well with levels. However it replicates the effects of Find the Path once every 2 days.

[MoleMage]

Taking a look at the changes to Pilot, I think your new gadget mechanic is much cleaner than your old one, and having all of the "core" combat gadgets (cantrips and weapons) be investment instead of expenditure definitely gives you a leg up.

It looks like you patched up Pilot Specialization to be a little more forgiving at level 1 and for ASIs, as well, which I like.

I didn't notice any updates to Chirurgeon, and Mad Scientist is yet to come. Does anyone need an extension?

[Old Harry MTX]

Taking a look at the changes to Pilot, I think your new gadget mechanic is much cleaner than your old one, and having all of the "core" combat gadgets (cantrips and weapons) be investment instead of expenditure definitely gives you a leg up.

It looks like you patched up Pilot Specialization to be a little more forgiving at level 1 and for ASIs, as well, which I like.

Yes, your advice has been of great help!

[noob]

I am trying to make a ridiculous inventing class based on some nonsense as style powered inventions.
Technically it is not a science based class but since people already made a lot of nonsense I might as well add this class in.
Does it looks too much powerful?
I plan to make inventions be in line with spells in term of power.

[Old Harry MTX]

I am trying to make a ridiculous inventing class based on some nonsense as style powered inventions.
Technically it is not a science based class but since people already made a lot of nonsense I might as well add this class in.
Does it looks too much powerful?
I plan to make inventions be in line with spells in term of power.

In my opinion it reflects the theme of the contest well, also I like the mechanics that allow you to get bonuses from failures, it makes sense for a scientific approach. Maybe I will deepen it even more.

For the balance I do not know, I should study it a little. Have you done any test calculations?

[noob]

In my opinion it reflects the theme of the contest well, also I like the mechanics that allow you to get bonuses from failures, it makes sense for a scientific approach. Maybe I will deepen it even more.

For the balance I do not know, I should study it a little. Have you done any test calculations?

Sorry I was not talking about your class.
I will read it a bit now.
Balance matters only among the 10 first levels in 5e: afterwards casters get abilities that makes it pointless so people can feel free beyond level 10 to do silly stuff.
Anyway I started reading your class.
It is weird to see that you can simultaneously use superiority dice and shocking grasp on an attack at level 4 but you have only one attack unless using limited resources so over time you become essentially good at nova and bad at sustained fighting.
The number of allowed gadgets is incredible.
Is it allowed to pick the same gadget multiple times?

[Old Harry MTX]

Sorry I was not talking about your class.
I will read it a bit now.
Balance matters only among the 10 first levels in 5e: afterwards casters get abilities that makes it pointless so people can feel free beyond level 10 to do silly stuff.
Anyway I started reading your class.
It is weird to see that you can simultaneously use superiority dice and shocking grasp on an attack at level 4 but you have only one attack unless using limited resources so over time you become essentially good at nova and bad at sustained fighting.
The number of allowed gadgets is incredible.
Is it allowed to pick the same gadget multiple times?

I think you misunderstood, probably due to my awful English... I was referring to your class, not mine. ^^

As for your question, no, you can't have multiple identical gadgets, but you regain a limited amount of steam points at the end of short rests too.

[noob]

I think you misunderstood, probably due to my awful English... I was referring to your class, not mine. ^^

As for your question, no, you can't have multiple identical gadgets, but you regain a limited amount of steam points at the end of short rests too.

The problem was not your English it is just that you mentioned benefits on failure and I did not have that in my class.
I found out that you probably did read the class just above mine which is a class that have such mechanic.

[Old Harry MTX]

The problem was not your English it is just that you mentioned benefits on failure and I did not have that in my class.
I found out that you probably did read the class just above mine which is a class that have such mechanic.

You are right! Forgive me, but the main topic has been stuck for some time and seeing two new entries so close together confused me.

As soon as I can I also read yours!

[noob]

You are right! Forgive me, but the main topic has been stuck for some time and seeing two new entries so close together confused me.

As soon as I can I also read yours!

What do you think about the branches I did create?
Should I make more branches like for example a mad laboratory branch?
Also do you think the subclasses have overtuned features?
I made the calculation and a thunder focused musician could deal roughly 44 lightning damage (average assuming the opponents do not have resistance or immunity) per turn to 6 opponents in range at level 20 then I figured out "which caster plays at that level and does not have similarly broken options?"

[MoleMage]

I was supposed to put up the voting thread today but ended up being a little busier than I usually am on a Monday. Voting thread coming a day late (AKA tomorrow).

[MoleMage]

It's time to vote on class and theme!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624021-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-XIII-Voting-Thread&p=24846131#post24846131

Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year to everyone, as well, since the new contest will start in January.

[MoleMage]

It's the last day to vote! I'll be getting mine cast this evening but just thought I'd send a reminder.

Hope everyone had a good New Year!

[Breccia]

2. Chirugen by Breccia. While firmly being the least work into a "subsystem" able to expand in that it seems to have literally no centralized mechanic (I assume the studying of creatures was intended to operate along those lines, but no crunch was given to that fluff), it is actually written out properly and doesn't have any readily apparent breakage in its use. While the lack of any external functions leaves it very "penned in", what it has to work with is a very bluntly useful "support Rogue" operational area, even if the scale of either leaves much to ask for.

This is at least 90% valid.

I fully intended to work more on the class/submission but finals/holidays got in the way and I just lost track of it.

The idea of studying creatures, adding to the types of monsters you could affect, was one I ended up discarding, however, because it's part of another class I made and the contest rules suggested I shouldn't do that. So it ended up being "this subclass gets every monster, the rest don't". Which out of context makes the class unfixably weak in some situations/campaigns. So you're right to call it out. If I (or anyone else) used this in a campaign, adding some kind of "autopsy record book" would make a ton of sense.

[MoleMage]

Voting time is over, new contest on the way!

Our bronze medal this time goes to the master of plants, MoleMage's Botanist! Summon sproutlings, then shoot your crossbow while they go to town on your foes! The Botanist earned 10 points, the same as the Chirurgeon, but the Chirurgeon earned it through more 1st-place votes, meaning...

Our silver medal this time goes to the devious medic, Breccia's Chirurgeon! Heal your friends, and sever your foes' arteries with extreme precision. The Chirurgeon also earned 10 points but won through the 2nd tiebreaker.

And finally, our gold medal, our blue ribbon, our 1st place winner, is none other than Old Harry MTX's Pilot! Wear your golem suit and craft golem gadgets to go with it! Want a flamethrower or a counterspell shield! There's (probably) a gadget for everything! The Pilot earned 12 votes, securing its victory!

With two last-minute votes, Monster Mash is our next theme. Looking forward to seeing what you guys do with some monsters. Look for the new contest shortly.

Votes are tallied! New contest imminent!