War Cleric or not...

[DeShurland]

Hello,

In a bit of a quandary. About to start Princes of the Apocalypse (on Roll20). Rolled my numbers (17,15,13,12,12,10) but I have no idea what to do. I was tempted by a cleric, as I quite like hitting things, (Tempest or War seem obvious) but I also quite like a bit of control (Played a bard and he was quite good fun)

My concern with war, is that it seems to be spiritual weapon and spirt guardian spamming. I don't really fancy casting the same 2 spells as soon as combat begins.

FYI, I am not very good at the charisma side of RP, and I am a terrible face, my bard gets by as there are 2 paladins in the party.

Is war actually good? It looks combat heavy 1-4, and then spell focused 5+... which is fine as I would have 20 WIS.

[RogueJK]

My concern with war, is that it seems to be spiritual weapon and spirt guardian spamming.

That's the go-to for nearly all melee Clerics. The combo is just that good. If you really want to irk your DM, get your AC high with a shield and heavy armor, activate Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians, wade into the front lines so a bunch of enemies are in your aura, and then take the Dodge action rather than the Attack action, relying on your Bonus Action Spiritual Weapon to attack each round. You'll still dish out a ton of damage per round, but rarely get hit, and even more rarely lose Concentration.


Is war actually good?

In my opinion, no. It's one of the weakest Cleric subclasses. Their War Priest feature is strictly worse than Spiritual Weapon unless you just happen to only have a moderate WIS, in which case it's just kinda bad instead of really bad. The handful of uses per day totally kills its usefulness; anyone can just dual-wield for a Bonus Action attack unlimited times per day, after all. (It would be much more useful if they were to gain the ability to use it unlimited times per day at 5th level, or even just got the Extra Attack feature.) And their Channel Divinity is only really useful if you invest in something like Great Weapon Master with a maxed out STR, which most Clerics will not, and even then it's only useful a handful of times per day like War Priest.

You can build a noticeably better Cleric using a Forge or Tempest Cleric, who are not only solid melee frontliners but also have other things outside of melee that they will excel at as well. Or, for a non-traditional melee Cleric build, try an Arcana, Life, or Nature Cleric.


If you want to build a traditional melee Cleric, I'd do something like this:
Variant Human Tempest or Forge Cleric, taking Heavy Armor Master.
STR 17 +1 (HAM)
DEX 12
CON 13 +1
INT 12
WIS 15 +1
CHA 10

Use Heavy Armor, a Shield with your Holy Symbol on it, and a Longsword/Battleaxe/Warhammer. At level 4, take WIS +2. At Level 8, take Warcaster.


Or if you want something a bit more outside the norm, try:
Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric
STR 13
DEX 12
CON 15+2
INT 12
WIS 17+1
CHA 10

Use Heavy Armor, a Shield with your Holy Symbol on it, and a Club or Quarterstaff with the Shilelagh Cantrip as your free Druid cantrip (letting you use WIS for your melee attack/damage stat). At Level 4, take WIS +2 or Resilient (CON). At Level 8, take WIS +2 or Resilient (CON). At level 12, take CON +2. You'll have a bunch more HP than other melee Clerics.


Similarly, if you want to a big boost to your Healing while still being a frontliner, how about a:
Variant Human Life Cleric, taking Magic Initiate Druid for Shillelagh, Produce Flame or a utility cantrip of your choice, and Goodberry
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 13+1
INT 12
WIS 17+1
CHA 10

Use Heavy Armor, a Shield with your Holy Symbol on it, and a Club or Quarterstaff with the Shilelagh Cantrip. At Level 4, take WIS +2 or Warcaster. At Level 8, take WIS +2 or Warcaster.


Or for a very capable Arcana Cleric melee build, check out this thread, and scroll about 1/3 way down Page 1 to "Build 4: Arcana Cleric Frontliner": https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds


If you really want to lean into the melee role, at the expense of your higher level spellcasting, you might consider multiclassing 5 levels of Ranger for Extra Attack, some extra skills, and some additional damage and abilities from the Hunter or Gloomstalker subclass. I've played a Hill Dwarf Gloomstalker Ranger 5/Nature Cleric 5 before, and as long as you're not trying to compete as a primary spellcaster, it was a fun melee build in Tier 1 and 2. (Similar playstyle to a Paladin, focusing on melee + buff spells.) I went Cleric 3 first for the additional Spiritual Weapon attack, then Cleric 3/Gloomstalker Ranger 5 (3x attacks per round with Extra Attack and Spiritual Weapon, and 4x attacks in the 1st round of combat), then Cleric 5/Ranger 5 for Spirit Guardians, and would have continued with just Cleric levels from there if it had progressed further. The Ranger spellcasting not only grants you a few additional lower level spells that the Cleric doesn't usually get access to, but also gets you some higher level spells slots in which to upcast your Spiritual Weapon for additional damage. And since everything is keying off WIS with Shillelagh and Spiritual Weapon, and you not being reliant on STR for attacking or even wearing heavy armor, it doesn't hurt as much to delay you first ASI to 7th level as long as you start out with a high WIS and decent CON.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Rolled my numbers (17,15,13,12,12,10) but I have no idea what to do. I was tempted by a cleric, as I quite like hitting things, (Tempest or War seem obvious) but I also quite like a bit of control (Played a bard and he was quite good fun)

My concern with war, is that it seems to be spiritual weapon and spirt guardian spamming. I don't really fancy casting the same 2 spells as soon as combat begins. Is war actually good? It looks combat heavy 1-4, and then spell focused 5+... which is fine as I would have 20 WIS.

I don't consider War very good. For a melee cleric, there are other subclasses which are just as effective mechanically and more interesting (Tempest, Forge, etc.).

But you're not entirely wrong about SW & SG being overwhelmingly good for clerics. Just like many class spell lists, some spells are just better than others - either more outright powerful or more universally useful in more situations. And trying to do anything other than taking those "best" spells can feel pretty suboptimal. For clerics, SW & SG is just super-effective for melee, especially after you pick up a concentration-enhancing feat. Sure, there'll be times when other spells are better for your concentration. But there'll rarely be a melee encounter where this combo feels like a bad idea. If this really bugs you a lot, look for a different subclass that gets some non-cleric spells from their domain list that you really want, and that seem like they'd be a better use for your concentration in a reasonable number of encounters.

Ninja'd!

[MrStabby]

So is there something that draws you to the war cleric?

By your description a bit of control and hitting things - I would suggest the Conquest Palaldin from Xanathar's Gude to Everything. It hits harderthan a War Cleric, Its tougher but it also gets a lot of control options from level 3 onwards (and command/wrathful smite at level 2 as well I guess). This might be a better fix?


Is war good? Yes... at low levels and as a dip. Actually its perfectly fine all the way up - just that other options are better. Standing in mellee gets less and less attractive the more your concentration spells contribute to your power... and the attack action on the cleric really begins to fall behind so your class features get a bit underused at level 11+.

There is a degree to which you will rely on staple spells, but with enough other options for good things like bless, banishment, protection from evil and good, healing word and so on you should find it mixed up a bit more than other characters

[Frogreaver]

War is good.

One of the coolest things you can do is use your channel divinity to nearly always hit with inflict wounds/guiding bolt. It’s enough to make those spells in a level 2 slot competitive if not better with spiritual weapon.

Heck, due to the near guaranteed nature and burst potential of that combo, there’s going to be scenarios where using one of them is better than spirit guardians.

The bonus action attack then can be used instead of spiritual weapon as you won’t always be opting for spiritual weapon.

It’s not the best though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a tank I'll agree that using those spells is the way to go, in which case Forge is probably your best domain option. Go Hill Dwarf, Str 13, Dex 10, Con 15+2, Int 12, Wis 17+1, Cha 12, and there's no drawback for not having the required Str score for your heavy armor. Use your blessing of the forge to make your armor +1, and try to get a +1 shield fairly soon as they're just uncommon.

Tempest can be really good if you've got all the things you need for perfect synergy: Ravnica backgrounds (Izzet Engineer for Shocking Grasp and Elemental Weapon) and Tasha's race variants (so High Elf for Booming Blade gets favorable ability score bonuses, and trade the four weapon proficiencies for tool proficiencies). In this case get War Caster asap so you can Booming Blade on an opportunity attack. You can use Shocking Grasp or an attack/BB with Elemental Weapon at 6th+ to knock an enemy away from an ally, allowing that ally to move without taking the disengage action. Sentinel is also good, when you OA they're stuck where they end up, including if you knock them back with lightning damage. For this one I would prioritize Str and Con over Wis starting out.

[Seekergeek]

I played War early on in 5e's existence and had a really good time with it - I think I only played 1-8, so my experience is limited to a lower level run. However, I will say with a high wis, and decent physical attack stat (both totally doable with your rolls) you can treat War Priest as roughly equivalent to a free casting of spiritual weapon. Your CD pairs insanely well with harder-hitters like guiding bolt or inflict wounds depending on your positioning as a ranged or melee striker. You don't have to treat war priest and spiritual weapon as competing resources. They are alternatives, not competitors and War Priest can easily function for you as a free second level spell slot in shorter encounters when you've got five rounds worth of bonus attacks. Also worth noting is that War Priest plays well with heavy crossbows and the loading property.

All this talk of it has me kind of wanting to revist that character after the eight or so years since I played it.

[RogueJK]

War is good.
The bonus action attack then can be used instead of spiritual weapon as you won’t always be opting for spiritual weapon.

You don't have to treat war priest and spiritual weapon as competing resources. They are alternatives, not competitors

They compete for different stat priorities, and therefore conflict when it comes to stats distribution and ASIs. Heck, War Priest competes within itself for stat priorities.

War Priest is usable WISMOD times per long rest. So even if you have a maxed WIS, you're only able to make 5 bonus action attacks per day. That's it. And until high levels, if you've maxed WIS your STR will be lower and you'll have a lower Attack/Damage bonus on those 5x bonus attacks. And if you've maxed STR to maximize your Attack/Damage on those melee attacks, you in turn will get fewer than 5 uses per day.

[Admiral Akbar]It's a trap.[/Akbar]

Spiritual Weapon, even though it uses a spell slot, allows you not only more attacks in general per day than War Priest, but also allows you to prioritize WIS over STR and still be competitive with your attack/damage. And it can be upcast for additional damage. And it can be used at range. And it does Force damage, bypassing practically all resistances/immunities. And, most importantly, unlike War Priest it can still be used to attack on rounds that you don't take the Attack action, like when using your action to Cast a Spell.


If you really want a melee Cleric that focuses on STR over WIS and uses Attack+Bonus Action melee attacks instead of Spiritual Weapon, you're better off choosing a different Cleric domain and taking Polearm Master. Or possibly dual-wielding, especially if you dip 1 level into Fighter or 2 levels into Ranger for Two Weapon Fighting Style. Either Dual Wielding or Polearm Master gets you a Bonus Action attack usable unlimited times per day that doesn't have any innate competition between your STR and WIS.


And if you really want to min/max... Make a Nature Cleric with a Shillelagh'd Quarterstaff, Polearm Master, and maxed out WIS. You now have unlimited Bonus Action melee attacks, and STR doesn't matter for your attack/damage so your spellcasting doesn't have to suffer in order to boost your melee ability. Strictly better than a War Cleric with War Priest.

[x3n0n]

Is war good? Yes... at low levels and as a dip.

Tangent:

War Cleric looks really appealing as a 1-2 level dip for a Kensei Monk. Divine Favor is like Hunter's Mark with better action economy for a BA-heavy class, and the BA weapon attacks let you lean into the kensei weapons a bit more, rather than having your BAs be restricted to unarmed strikes. (Not to mention Cleric spellcasting on a class that doesn't get a lot of "sharing" utility.)

[Frogreaver]

They compete for different stat priorities, and therefore conflict when it comes to stats distribution and ASIs. Heck, War Priest competes within itself for stat priorities.

You are a cleric. Your priorities are Wisdom/Concentration.


War Priest is usable WISMOD times per long rest. So even if you have a maxed WIS, you're only able to make 5 bonus action attacks per day. That's it. And until high levels, if you've maxed WIS your STR will be lower and you'll have a lower Attack/Damage bonus on those 5x bonus attacks. And if you've maxed STR to maximize your Attack/Damage on those melee attacks, you in turn will get fewer than 5 uses per day.

[Admiral Akbar]It's a trap.[/Akbar]

How many 2nd level slots does a cleric have? 3. The bonus action attack feature allows you to get about 1 extra combat of something that does similar damage to spiritual weapon. It's not a competing resource. It's a complimentary one.


Spiritual Weapon, even though it uses a spell slot, allows you not only more attacks in general per day than War Priest, but also allows you to prioritize WIS over STR and still be competitive with your attack/damage.

Irrelevant as the resources don't compete and you will be prioritizing Wisdom either way.


And it can be upcast for additional damage. And it can be used at range. And it does Force damage, bypassing practically all resistances/immunities. And, most importantly, unlike War Priest it can still be used to attack on rounds that you don't take the Attack action, like when using your action to Cast a Spell.

Again, the abilities don't compete in any way. You don't have enough uses of spiritual weapon to cover every encounter in your adventuring day.


If you really want a melee Cleric that focuses on STR over WIS and uses Attack+Bonus Action melee attacks instead of Spiritual Weapon, you're better off choosing a different Cleric domain and taking Polearm Master.

Why do you believe war clerics must focus on strength?


Or possibly dual-wielding, especially if you dip 1 level into Fighter or 2 levels into Ranger for Two Weapon Fighting Style. Either Dual Wielding or Polearm Master gets you a Bonus Action attack usable unlimited times per day that doesn't have any innate competition between your STR and WIS.

Polearm Master is pretty bad on a cleric. It's a very suboptimal recommendation.


And if you really want to min/max... Make a Nature Cleric with a Shillelagh'd Quarterstaff, Polearm Master, and maxed out WIS. You now have unlimited Bonus Action melee attacks, and STR doesn't matter for your attack/damage so your spellcasting doesn't have to suffer in order to boost your melee ability. Strictly better than a War Cleric with War Priest.

You invested into a feat and a specific subclass to be able to do about the same DPR that a cantrip attack would do at level 5. The damage barely scales faster than a cantrip damage even for later levels. And you are calling that an optimized build...

[RogueJK]

Why do you believe war clerics must focus on strength?

Because if you want to be able to successfully utilize their War Priest extra attacks, and the Attack action that is needed to trigger it, you need STR for these melee attacks/damage. As opposed to Spiritual Weapon, which relies on WIS, and can be used along with the Cast A Spell action for a WIS-based cantrip or spell, and is therefore better suited for a WIS focus.


Polearm Master is pretty bad on a cleric. It's a very suboptimal recommendation.

Yes, but War Priest is even more suboptimal. That was an example of how, if someone was dead-set on getting a Bonus Action attack for their Cleric that didn't rely on Spiritual Weapon, there was a better way to do it. Not necessarily a great overall character build option in the grand scheme of optimization, yet still better than War Priest.


You invested into a feat and a specific subclass to be able to do about the same DPR that a cantrip attack would do at level 5. The damage barely scales faster than a cantrip damage even for later levels. And you are calling that an optimized build...

See above. Not optimized overall, but the best option for a "Cleric attacking with a Bonus Action melee attack", compared to a War Cleric with War Priest and STR-based melee attacks. It's not an "optimized build", just a way to min/max that very specific goal with a less bad option than War Cleric, and still allowing you to be a WIS-focused Cleric (as you should be).

And such a Polearm Master/Shillelagh Cleric could potentially be leveraged into something workable as a melee character competitive into Tier 2/3, by doing something like Multiclassing into Ranger for Extra Attack, Dueling fighting style, and some additional damage from subclasses.

[solidork]

I joined a Princes of the Apocalypse game as a War Cleric at level 5 and played through the end, at around level 13. I was a half orc and took Resilient: Con at level 8 so I had 16 Str and 16 Wis for most of the game. I didn't really have any complaints as far as effectiveness goes. If you like the flavor of a Cleric who is in some way a student of warfare - a soldier, a tactician, etc. and are interested in playing that kind of character you won't be disappointed. You're right that you're going to be using Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon a lot so try and come up with solid concepts for those spells - do the spirits take the forms of soldiers you've fought beside in the past? Saints of your religion that have personal meaning to you? Your honored ancestors?

The only thing to note is that if your class fantasy involves your character getting in there and hitting people with your weapon as their form of at will damage and it would bother you if doing that isn't the "optimal choice" (ie: your ranged cantrip deals more damage) then you'll need to eventually pick up a melee cantrip. Talk with your GM and see if they are amenable to you finding an item that gives you the ability to cast Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade - my character's motivation for getting involved in the events of Princes of the Apocalypse was that he was chasing after someone who had looted his ancestor's tomb and taken an important relic, which I eventually recovered.

[CTurbo]

War Cleric is one of the worst Domains IMO. As mentioned above, Tempest, Forge, Nature, Life, and even Arcane are better in the tank roll.

War Cleric is great for a 1 or 2 level dip for other martial characters, but that's it. War Priest needs some serious work to be a worthy feature comparable to the other domains.

Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are well known for a reason, but Bless is an amazing spell on which to concentrate on in all tiers of play.

Tempest is always my go-to Cleric. There are some fun control spells on the Tempest domain spell list, and maximizing thunder and lightning damage is great fun.

Go Vhuman with either +1 Con and Wis and start with HAM or +1 Str and Wis and start with Res(Con). Either way you end up with 16 Str, 14 Con, and 18 Wis.

[Blood of Gaea]

You could easily run an Arcana Cleric without needing to grab Shillelagh with that stat set.

Race: Wood Elf

Str: 12
Dex: 15+2
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 17+1
Cha: 10

Wood Elf gets you a good stat set, and some generally nifty abilities (a finesse upgrade from dagger to shortsword, for example).

You'll probably want to take Resilient (Con) at 4th level, then max Wis at 8th level.

After that you can grab whichever Dex half feat takes your fancy.

--

This has decent damage progression, Greenflame Blade scale up at levels 5, 8 (Potent Spellcasting), 11, and 17, making it much more competitive than just normal weapon attacks with a Cleric.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Because if you want to be able to successfully utilize their War Priest extra attacks, and the Attack action that is needed to trigger it, you need STR for these melee attacks/damage. As opposed to Spiritual Weapon, which relies on WIS, and can be used along with the Cast A Spell action for a WIS-based cantrip or spell, and is therefore better suited for a WIS focus.


Dex works fine as the Attack Stat as well....War Priest works with Ranged Attacks in addition to melee attacks. The +10 from Guided Strike can help a Cleric of War connect with the Bonus Attacks from War Priest. One does not need to Max out either Str or Dex.

War Priest's granting of BA attacks are great for those combats when a few extra attacks will end an encounter. How often does the PC group kill everything in 2-3 rounds after casting Spiritual Weapon? I've certainly experienced that....sometimes a little War Priest action saves the need to spend the spell slot.

I do wish the Cleric of War Domain list included some Weapon Attacks spells from the Paladin and Ranger Spell lists.

[Dork_Forge]

War Cleric is good enough at it's job without just slapping Extra Attack into the Cleric chassis.

To boost your melee damage output I recommend taking advantage of Divine Favor and a heavy weapon, ranged weapons work great too but I don't think that fits your desire with the character.

[DeShurland]

Once again I am indebted to the good people here.

Thanks all, some great advice!!