3rd Ed Making Prestige Classes Great [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

liquidformat

2020-10-20, 09:26 AM

So I am always sad when I go through and see PRCs that have really cool flavor or are interesting but just suck because they haven't been designed well. As such I wanted to go through and see what fixes could be done to make these PRCs actually worth taking. I was thinking let's start with DMG, let me know your thoughts and suggestions, always up for cool ideas!

DMG
Assassin: good as is

Arcane Archer: As is this is borderline between 8/10 and 9/10, I think just adding more uses of the daily use arrows and going with 8/10 makes more sense but either would work.

Add casting 8/10
Remove racial prerequisite
Add Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), and Spellcraft
Adding more daily uses of Seeker, Phase, Hail, and Death arrows.
Replace Enhanced Arrow ability with 'Enchanted Arrow' Ability referencing 'Echanted Blade' ability from Blade Dancer, keep access at every odd level. Increase uses per day with each use of the ability
Hail of Arrows is an (Ex) ability all other abilities of the PRC are (Su)

See Arcane Archer Entry (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24766324&postcount=48)

Arcane Trickster:

6+ Int mod skill points/level
Change prerequisite to at least one arcane spell of 2rd level or higher.

Archmage: good as is

Blackguard: maybe ok as is

Change prerequisite to Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, or Improved Sunder
Command and rebuke stacks with other class levels with a similar feature including fallen paladin levels of turn undead.

Dragon Disciple: Going full BaB and how much more powerful breath weapon becomes would really be the deciding factor on the split between 7/10 or 8/10

Change casting to 9/10
Full BAB
Move Wings to somewhere between levels 4-6
Increase breath weapon power each level and usable every 1d4 rounds

See Dragon Disciple Entry (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24766324&postcount=48)

Duelist: seems like full rebuild is best option here
Swashbuckler/Duelist mashup (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wS5zvvhSu-9J2SdbCMVPqr9o-g7OB6--4474dTbwKBY/edit?usp=sharing)
Duelist (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24762833&postcount=12)

Dwarven Defender: seems like dropping down to 5 levels full BAB, all good saves, d12 and adding martial maneuvers and stances is the best way to go. I think adding a few more skills like intimidate and maybe survival jump climb and tumble would be worth while. Also change feat prerequisites to be more useful Honestly I think Endurance and Steadfast Determination might be reasonable and go with the PRC theme. Finally giving it the ability to move is mandatory...
Dwarven Defender (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24762472&postcount=5)
See Dwarven Defender Entry (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24766324&postcount=48)

Eldritch Knight: This is pretty bare bones

Hierophant: I think just removing spell power and making this 4/5 caster progression is fine

Horizon Walker: Honestly this one is quite decent I think just making the attack/damage bonuses scale every other level and the skill competence bonus double every 4 levels after you took it

Loremaster: Fine as is

Red Wizard: Fine as is

Mystic Theurge:

(Gromancer) Mystic Theurge (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24765933&postcount=43)
(Spell Booster) Mystic Theurge (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24766017&postcount=44)
Third option for a very slight boost is adjusting Prerequisites: Ability to cast first level arcane and divine spells, Ability to cast second levels spells

Shadowdancer: This one is a bit of a hot mess and needs quite a bit of help as is it is a great 1 level dip. Start off I think getting sneak attack every other level at a bare minimum maybe give it full casting focused around illusions or some janky shadow magic from ToM or something...
See Shadowdancer Entry (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24766324&postcount=48)

Thaumaturgist: Fine as is

ChaosStar

2020-10-20, 09:51 AM

For the Duelist I'd say redesign it into a Swashbuckler PrC rather than Rogue. Have it progress the Swashbuckler's Grace and Dodge Bonus, maybe change Canny Defense so that it doesn't rely on Duelist levels and instead is just Int to AC when wearing no or Light Armor. Maybe give Precise Strike at 2nd and Advance it at 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th. Probably also remove any reference to shields preventing the use of their abilities.

lylsyly

2020-10-20, 10:05 AM

Arcane Archer:

Drop racial requirements 9/10 casting

Dragon Disciple

at least 8/10 casting
Breath weapon at first and improves by 1d8 every odd level
gives wings earlier say at 4th
change the Int boost to charisma since it's basically for sorcerers anyhoo

The other 3: I have no opinion on

Fouredged Sword

2020-10-20, 10:19 AM

Dwarven Defender - Make it a martial maneuver class with the same progression as other martial maneuver PRCs and granting Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit strikes and stances. Defensive Stance becomes just that - a stance they can take at will. Remove the per day limit and the strength penalty after leaving the stance.

- I mean, this is what Deepstone Sentinel tried to be.

Duelist - Make it a fighter / rogue hybrid class. Leave everything as is with the following changes
- Canny defense is a flat +int to AC when wielding a weapon that qualifies for weapon finesse and wearing no more than light armor and not wielding a shield except a buckler. All duelist abilities work in light armor and with a buckler.
- At 2nd level get 1d6 sneak attack, gains +1d6 sneak attack every even level. This replaces precise strike.
- At level 4 also get evasion.
- At 9th level also get improved evasion

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-20, 10:28 AM

Dwarven Defender
5 levels, full base attack, three good saves, d12 hit die, 4 skill points/level
Requirements: +5 bab, must know Iron Guard's Glare and Defensive Rebuke, Combat Reflexes, proficiency with dwarven warpike, proficiency with heavy armour and heavy shields (dwarves can change their racial weapon familiarity to apply to dwarven warpikes, so it's easier to get in as dwarf, but you don't have to be a dwarf).
First-level ability: While wielding a dwarven warpike, you can also use a heavy shield. Defensive Stance 1 + class level/day (as dwarven defender, but with Mobile Defense built in, and the bonus to saves is typeless).
Second-level ability: extra maneuver known (crusader list).
Third-level ability: While in a defensive stance, you add your class level to the IGG attack penalty.
Fourth-level ability: extra maneuver known (crusader list).
5th-level bonus feat: Defensive Sweep as bonus feat. While in a defensive stance, you grow one size category (no stat change from the size, but you do get an extra +4 strength).

Simple, effective.

ChaosStar

2020-10-20, 10:30 AM

Fouredged Sword

2020-10-20, 10:36 AM

Evasion wouldn't do anything for a Fighter/Rogue PrC as Rogue 2 already gives Evasion. I still say it makes more sense as a Swashbuckler PrC though.

I meant hybrid as in "Has features of both". You can trade it for ray reflection or use duelist to add a splash of rogue to an otherwise non-rogue martial class.

liquidformat

2020-10-20, 11:49 AM

Arcane Archer:

Drop racial requirements 9/10 casting

Yeah dropping racial requirement seems reasonable, but comparing this to Eldritch Knight or even Abjurant Champion you are getting quite a bit, so I still lean towards 8/10 maybe dropping caster level at 4 and 8?

[/B]Dragon Disciple

at least 8/10 casting
Breath weapon at first and improves by 1d8 every odd level
gives wings earlier say at 4th
change the Int boost to charisma since it's basically for sorcerers anyhoo

The other 3: I have no opinion on

What do you think of this:
-7/10 casting (loose 3/7/10); Full BAB; Good Fort/Will; D12
- +1 NA at 1st,4th,7th,10th; +2 Str at 2th,4th,6th,8th and +4 at 10th; +2 Cha at 4th and 10th; +2 Con at 6th; +2 Int at 8th
- Bite Claws at 2nd
- Wings at 6th
- Blindsense 30' at 5th, 60' at 9th
- at 10th acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.
-Breath weapon: At 3rd level, a dragon disciple gains a minor breath weapon. The type and shape depend on the dragon variety whose heritage he enjoys (see below). Regardless of the ancestor, the breath weapon deals 2d8 points of damage of the appropriate energy type. Which can be used once every 1d6 rounds.

At 7th level, it can be used once every 1d4 rounds and damage increases to 4d8, and when a disciple attains dragon apotheosis at 10th level it reaches its full power at 6d8 and can be used once every 1d3 rounds. Use all the rules for dragon breath weapons except as specified here.

The DC of the breath weapon is 15 + Class Level + Con modifier.

A line-shaped breath weapon is 5 feet high, 5 feet wide, and 60 feet long. A cone-shaped breath weapon is 30 feet long.

Dwarven Defender
5 levels, full base attack, three good saves, d12 hit die, 4 skill points/level
Requirements: +5 bab, must know Iron Guard's Glare and Defensive Rebuke, Combat Reflexes, proficiency with dwarven warpike, proficiency with heavy armour and heavy shields (dwarves can change their racial weapon familiarity to apply to dwarven warpikes, so it's easier to get in as dwarf, but you don't have to be a dwarf).
First-level ability: While wielding a dwarven warpike, you can also use a heavy shield. Defensive Stance 1 + class level/day (as dwarven defender, but with Mobile Defense built in, and the bonus to saves is typeless).
Second-level ability: extra maneuver known (crusader list).
Third-level ability: While in a defensive stance, you add your class level to the IGG attack penalty.
Fourth-level ability: extra maneuver known (crusader list).
5th-level bonus feat: Defensive Sweep as bonus feat. While in a defensive stance, you grow one size category (no stat change from the size, but you do get an extra +4 strength).
Yeah this seems quite nice and would play nicely with Deepstone Sentinel

Wildstag

2020-10-20, 12:04 PM

at least 8/10 casting
Breath weapon at first and improves by 1d8 every odd level
gives wings earlier say at 4th
change the Int boost to charisma since it's basically for sorcerers anyhoo

Charisma doesn't really work; it's just a longform version of the Half-Dragon Template, not an entirely unique concept. The template applies a Int boost, so the PrC has to as well... Besides, there are spontaneous Int casters.

Plus, the breath weapon would only end up at 5d8 if it was every odd level, which would make it weaker than just taking the template.

ShurikVch

2020-10-20, 12:14 PM

Dragon Disciple: First off the bonus spell thing is just screwy and should instead just be progressing spell levels like everything other caster class
Note: actually, bonus spells are really valuable at higher levels - when no amount of CL wouldn't give you any bonus spells at all, but levels in Dragon Disciple would...

Besides that I think adjusting the bonus ability scores and class features so that you end up with the Half-Dragon Template by level 10
:smallconfused:
But Dragon Disciple (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm) already gets Half-Dragon template at 10th level (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm#dragonApotheosis)...
Or - is it for Pathfinder (https://www.aonprd.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dragon%20Disc iple)?

lylsyly

2020-10-20, 02:10 PM

Charisma doesn't really work; it's just a longform version of the Half-Dragon Template, not an entirely unique concept. The template applies a Int boost, so the PrC has to as well... Besides, there are spontaneous Int casters.

Plus, the breath weapon would only end up at 5d8 if it was every odd level, which would make it weaker than just taking the template.

1st level 2d8
3rd level 3d8
5th level 4d8
7th level 5d8
9th level 6d8

I just want them to get it earlier and have it scale up over the whole class ;-)

AnimeTheCat

2020-10-20, 02:10 PM

Here's what I would do for Duelist

Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special

1
+1
+0
+2
+0
Canny Defense*, Insightful Strikes*, Grace*

2
+2
+0
+3
+0
Improved Reaction, Narrow Profile**, Elusive Mobility**

3
+3
+1
+3
+1
Precise Strike +1d6*, Deft Counter**, Acrobatic Charge*

4
+4
+1
+4
+1
Deflect Arrows*, AC Bonus +1**

5
+5
+1
+4
+1
Enhanced Mobility*, Elaborate Parry*

6
+6
+2
+5
+2
Precise Strike +2d6*, Rapid Counter**

7
+7
+2
+5
+2
Double Strike**, AC Bonus +2**

8
+8
+2
+6
+2
Perfect Footwork**, Swift Approach**

9
+9
+3
+6
+3
Precise Strike +3d6*, Lightning Counter**

10
+10
+3
+7
+3
Triple Strike**, AC Bonus +3**, Perfect Counter**

* = Original Class ability, but changed
** = New Ability

Canny Defense: When wearing Light or no armor, and with no more than a light load, a Duelist adds their intelligence modifier to their Armor Class. This bonus applies to Touch Armor Class as well. If a Duelist is caught flat-footed, or is otherwise denied their Dexterity modifier to their AC, they lose this bonus.

Grace: A Duelist gainst a +2 competence bonus on all reflex saving throws. If the Duelist also has the Swashbuckler ability of the same name, this is a +4 competence bonus instead. This bonus stacks with any bonus to reflex saves that a Duelist might have from the Swashbuckler class.

Insightful Strikes: A Duelist adds their intelligence modifier to their weapon damage rolls when using a light weapon, or any weapon that may have the weapon finesse feat applied to it. If a Duelist has levels in the Swashbuckler class, the Duelist adds their Duelist class level to damage in addition to their intelligence modifier. Creatures immune to precision damage or critical hits are also immune to Insightful Strikes.

Narrow Profile: At 2nd level, a Duelist has found the most efficient body position to reduce their chance of being hit in melee combat. When a Duelist wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load chooses to fight defensively or use the combat expertise feat, they gain an additional +2 dodge bonus to AC.

Elusive Mobility: At 2nd Level, a Duelist has figured out the most efficient means of navigating a crowded battlefield. While wearing light or no armor and while carrying no more than a light load, a Duelist gains an additional +2 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity when they move out of a threatened space.

Precise Strikes: At 3rd level, a duelist knows where to place attacks to cause the most damage possible. When attacking an enemy who is flanked, flat-footed, or otherwise denied dexterity to their armor class, a Duelist deals an additional 1d6 damage. This bonus damage increases by 1d6 for every 3 levels they possess in the Duelist class (+2d6 at 6th, +3d6 at 9th). Creatures who are immune to precision damage or critical hits are immune to this damage. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and must not be carrying more than a light load to use this ability.

Deft Counter: At 3rd level, a Duelist can react to any minor slip up the enemy has and deliver a vicious counter attack. In melee combat, a Duelist may make an attack of opportunity if the creature attacking them misses. This does not give a Duelist any additional attacks of opportunity, so without the Combat Reflexes feat a Duelist is limited to one Deft Counter per round. When making a Deft Counter attack, a Duelist may add their precise strike bonus damage to the damage roll. A Duelist can't benefit from Deft Counter if they are wearing light or no armor or if they are carrying more than a light load.

Acrobatic Charge: At 4th Level, a Duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where other characters cannot. They may charge over difficult terrain tat normally slows movement. This enables them to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony, or tumble over tables to get to her charge target. Depending on the circumstance, they may need to make appropriate checks (jump or tumble checks in particular) to successfully move over the terrain. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load in order to use Acrobatic Charge.

Deflect Arrows: At 4th Level, a Duelist gains the benefit of the deflect arrows feat when using a light weapon or any other weapon that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat and while wearing light or no armor and while carrying no more than a light load.

AC Bonus: At 4th, 7th, and 10th levels, a Duelist gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class. The Duelist loses this bonus if they are flat footed or otherwise denied their dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus only applies if the Duelist is wearing light or nor armor and while carrying no more than a light load.

Enhanced Mobility: At 5th Level, a Duelist has further improved their ability to avoid attacks made against them as they move about a crowded battlefield. They gain an additional +2 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. This stacks with Elusive Mobility.

Elaborate Parry: At 5th Level, a Duelist has figured out how to quickly parry incoming blows with ease. This further improves the bonus granted by Narrow Profile by +2, to a total of +4, when fighting defensively, using combat expertise, or using total defense. A Duelist can only gain this benefit if they are wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load.

Rapid Counter: At 6th level a Duelist may counter more quickly and their counters difficult to avoid. Any time a Duelist is missed as a part of an attack of opportunity, the Duelist may make their own counter attack against the creature that missed them. This counter attack uses the Duelist's Attack of Opportunity for the round, so without the Combat Reflexes feat, a Duelist may not make more than one attack of opportunity per round. Any time a Duelist hits with Rapid Counter, they may add their Precision Strike damage to the damage roll. Finally, a Duelist may add their intelligence modifier to all attacks made using the Rapid Counter, Deft Counter, Lightning Counter, or Perfect Counter class abilities. A Duelist may not use Rapid counter if they are wearing any heavier than light armor or if they are carrying any more than a light load.

Double Strike: As a standard action, a Duelist may make two attacks. Both attacks, an any attack made before the start of the Duelist's next turn, carry a -2 penalty to hit. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and must not be carrying more than a light load to use this ability.

Perfect Footwork: At 8th level, a Duelist has perfected the art of defensive fighting in Melee combat. Any time a Duelist fights defensively, uses total defense, or the Combat Expertise feat, they add their class level as a dodge bonus to their AC, in addition to the benefits granted by fighting defensively, using total defense, or the Combat Expertise feat. This ability replaces the bonus granted by Narrow Profile and Elaborate Parry. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load in order to use this ability.

Perfect Approach: At 8th level, a Duelist has perfect the art of moving around a crowded battlefield. A Duelist adds their class level to the AC granted by the Mobility feat against attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces Enhanced Mobility and Elusive Mobility. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load in order to use this ability.

Lightning Counter: At 8th Level, a Duelist can make a counter so fast that the target of the counter can't react. Whenever a Duelist makes a counter attack using Deft Counter or a Rapid Counter the target of the counter attack is denied their dexterity bonus to AC. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load in order to use this ability.

Triple Strike: A Duelist of 9th Level can make three attacks as a standard action. These three attacks, and all attacks made until the start of the Duelist's next turn, take a -2 penalty to hit. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load in order to use this ability.

Perfect Counter: At 10th level, a Duelist has perfect the art of the counter attack. When performing a counter attack using Deft Counter or Rapid Counter, a Duelist may make their attacks as a touch attack. Additionally, the Duelist is treated as having improved critical any time they make a counter attack with a light weapon, or any other weapon that may be used with weapon finesse. If the Duelist already has Improved Critical, the critical threat range is increased by 1 (i.e. an 18-20 threat range would be a 17-20). Finally, a Duelist adds their class level to attack rolls to confirm critical hits. A Duelist must be wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load in order to use this ability.

sreservoir

2020-10-20, 02:31 PM

Note: actually, bonus spells are really valuable at higher levels - when no amount of CL wouldn't give you any bonus spells at all, but levels in Dragon Disciple would...

For the core full-casters, every spellcaster level gains at least one spell slot of their highest level.

Celestia

2020-10-20, 02:40 PM

Note: actually, bonus spells are really valuable at higher levels - when no amount of CL wouldn't give you any bonus spells at all, but levels in Dragon Disciple would...
I mean, you're right. Full casters stop gaining spells after 20, but I don't think Dragon Disciple is better than epic sorcerer levels. *shrug*

lylsyly

2020-10-20, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=AnimeTheCat;24762833]Here's what I would do for Duelist .... snip ....

Comprehensive and makes Duelist a decent PrC. Nicely done.

NigelWalmsley

2020-10-20, 03:35 PM

The best and easiest change is to simply make any PrC that advances casting advance casting at every level. Partial casting progression is essentially impossible to balance, kicks any partial caster who dreams of PrCing directly in the junk, and is actively insulting in a world where there are PrCs with full casting progression (particularly when Incantatrix is one of them).

Thurbane

2020-10-20, 03:45 PM

I mean, you're right. Full casters stop gaining spells after 20, but I don't think Dragon Disciple is better than epic sorcerer levels. *shrug*

I'm quite fond of Spontaneous Arcane Caster X/Ur-Priest (or other fast progression PrC) 10/Dragon Disciple X: now you can use those extra spells slots for 9th level spells.

Duskblade 3 (for arcane channelling)/Bard 2/Ur Priest 10 (or Ur Priest X/full progression PrC X)/Dragon Disciple 5 can get you 4 extra 9th level Ur Priest spell slots, for instance.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-20, 04:42 PM

Yeah this seems quite nice and would play nicely with Deepstone Sentinel
Glad you like it, and yes, it would!

I mean, you're right. Full casters stop gaining spells after 20, but I don't think Dragon Disciple is better than epic sorcerer levels. *shrug*
This. Also, Wonderworker and unupdated Eunuch Warlock do it better (the former especially for divine casters), and still suck.

lylsyly

2020-10-20, 05:11 PM

Yeah dropping racial requirement seems reasonable, but comparing this to Eldritch Knight or even Abjurant Champion you are getting quite a bit, so I still lean towards 8/10 maybe dropping caster level at 4 and 8?
What do you think of this:

4/5 casting

1st imbue arrow, +1 arrow
2nd +2 arrow
3rd +3 arrow
4th +4 arrow
5th +5 arrow

All the rest are situational and only once a day so .. blah.

Comparing it to Abj Champ is not really a good thing, full bab and loses no CL while offering d10 instead of D6.... not to mention all the other goodness Abj Champ brings to the table.

tyckspoon

2020-10-20, 05:31 PM

Plus, the breath weapon would only end up at 5d8 if it was every odd level, which would make it weaker than just taking the template.

I'd just make it scale by 1/2 character level, not prestige class level, tbh. Assuming you leave it at the same point in Dragon Disciple's progression it would be 4d8 when you first get it, advancing to 10d8 at level 20. Combine with additional uses/day or putting it on a recharge timer instead of 1/day and you might actually have something that is a sort of reasonable thing to use. (And sure, the actual Half-dragon template can get this buff too, the breath weapon is probably the weakest part of the template as is.) Assuming you are also making Dragon Disciple into an actual casting prestige class instead of the weird martial buff class that it currently is, this would mean one of your signature prestige class features can be roughly as useful as casting a fourth level blasting spell by level 20 (literally, ref. Dragon Breath.) Doesn't sound like an overpowered thing to me, and may potentially be actually useful at some points instead of being something of a sad joke.

Thurbane

2020-10-20, 05:52 PM

For the DD breath weapon: Dragon Samurai (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906c) gives a 1/day breath weapon for 1d8/level, so anything up to 10d8 shouldn't be too unbalanced.

Melcar

2020-10-20, 06:04 PM

NontheistCleric

2020-10-20, 06:16 PM

For the DD breath weapon: Dragon Samurai (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906c) gives a 1/day breath weapon for 1d8/level, so anything up to 10d8 shouldn't be too unbalanced.

If you're a Half-Dragon, you can combine that with the Dragon Breath feat (Races of the Dragon) for 16d8 every 1d4 rounds. Be the equal of an Old Blue Dragon (in one area)!

Biggus

2020-10-21, 03:38 AM

DMG prestige classes as rated by the Tier System for Prestige Classes (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) thread:

Assassin +1
Blackguard +1
Loremaster +1
Thaumaturgist +1
Archmage +0
Dwarven Defender +0
Eldritch Knight +0
Red Wizard +0
Arcane Trickster -1
Dragon Disciple -1
Hierophant -1
Horizon Walker -1
Mystic Theurge -1
Shadowdancer -1
Arcane Archer -2
Duelist -2

The main reason Blackguard doesn't see much use in my games is not so much the prerequisites as that it's kind of obsolete if the variant Paladins from UA are in play.

As well as a decent casting progression Arcane Archer needs Concentration, Spellcraft and probably Knowledge (Arcana) as class skills.

Duelist is one of the worst "prestige" classes in the whole of 3E, to make it decent I think you're going to end up largely rebuilding it one way or the other.

I don't think Dwarven Defender is so much weak as not suited to PCs, except in very specific adventure types. Giving it the ability to move more while in a defensive stance would do a lot to make it more PC-friendly, as would removing the terrible feat prerequisites.

liquidformat

2020-10-21, 09:16 AM

What are people's thoughts on Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Hierophant, Horizon Walker, and Shadowdancer? Also if you cool ideas for the others keep bringing them!

A while back someone in the forum said the following about skill points which I think is a great idea that puts some logic behind how many skill points a class gets. I think it only reduces the skill points for Beguiler and everyone else stays the same or gets an increase.

Base 2 + Int for being a d20 System creature.
Plus 2 for not having Int as a keystone of your class features.
Plus 2 for having no Spell Slot/Powers progression at all.
Plus 2 for being a skill usage focused class. (20+ without skill combining, 17+ with skill combining, only counting craft and profession once)

Celestia

2020-10-21, 09:28 AM

I'm quite fond of Spontaneous Arcane Caster X/Ur-Priest (or other fast progression PrC) 10/Dragon Disciple X: now you can use those extra spells slots for 9th level spells.

Duskblade 3 (for arcane channelling)/Bard 2/Ur Priest 10 (or Ur Priest X/full progression PrC X)/Dragon Disciple 5 can get you 4 extra 9th level Ur Priest spell slots, for instance.
I don't think it's Dragon Disciple that is the power pick in that build.

NigelWalmsley

2020-10-21, 10:05 AM

Yeah. You could instead go Mystic Theurge for double 9ths.

Also, if you're looking for an improved Blackguard, this homebrew PrC (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Bone_Rider_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)) might fit.

Fouredged Sword

2020-10-21, 10:07 AM

Hierophant just needs 5/5 divine casting to be powerful. The only reason it's junk is because it doesn't progress casting. Even 4/5 casting would be fine.

Darg

2020-10-21, 01:04 PM

smetzger

2020-10-21, 01:32 PM

Arcane Archer

Along with some of the other suggestions... I think imbue arrow needs to be fixed... needs to be usable on non-area spells... why can't I put shocking grasp on it?

liquidformat

2020-10-21, 02:12 PM

Arcane Archer: Gain a +1 enhancement ability at levels 3,7,10 that function similarly to the soulknife and soulbow with an archery list. Seeker arrow gets an additional use at levels 7 and 10. Phase arrow gets an additional use at level 9. Death Arrow has a DC of 10 + class level + casting stat of arcane class used to qualify. Bonus archery feats at level 3,6,9. Spellcasting at 6/10.
Honestly I don't think this is enough to justify 6/10, I think if you scrapped bonus feats then this would be the bump needed to hit 8/10 with the addition of concentration, knowledge (arcane), and spellcraft to the skill list. Even with the 3 bonus feats I am not sure if that would be enough to hit 7/10

I think imbue arrow needs to be fixed... needs to be usable on non-area spells... why can't I put shocking grasp on it?
Yeah that would be very helpful without really breaking the class, maybe can deliver area, touch, ranged touch, and rays?

Blackguard: requirements are waved if you possess a minimum of 4 fallen paladin levels. Feat requirement now only requires cleave OR improved sunder instead of both. Command and rebuke stacks with other class levels with a similar feature including fallen paladin levels of turn undead. Feats that require paladin features that you possess can be traded for fighter feats for which you qualify.
So the standard paladin entry for Blackguard is something along the lines of Paladin5/Rogue1/Shadowbane Inquisitor 6(or 7); Shadowbane Inquisitor requires Power attack and gives you Improved Sunder as a bonus feat and you loose no class features of the PRC when you fall but it counts as Paladin levels for getting Bonuses from Blackguard, that means at 12 you fall and instantly become Rogue 1/Shadowbane Inquisitor 6/Blackguard 5 with all the bonuses of fallen paladin 10. The feat requirements really aren't bad to start with and are even better in this entry mode, but the improvement to turning is a good idea.

Dragon Disciple breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds and qualifies for breath feats. 1 bonus breath feat at level 6. Spellcasting at 5/10.
I don't think that is enough power to be worth loosing 5 caster levels, the idea is to bump these up to being worth playing.

Duelist is actually pretty reasonable honestly. The only thing I see that should be changed is Elaborate Parry being moved to be gotten at 1st level since it is based on class level already. 1 bonus fighter feat at levels 3,6,9. It's really awesome already at using AoO feats to kill things.
Yes it is as awesome at leveraging AoOs as any other class that gives absolutely no benefits to using AoOs...

Dwarven Defender: 2nd level +2 damage reduction and +1 every even level after which stacks with damage reduction from armor (including the specialization feat). Defensive Stance gets a 50% bonus at levels 5 and 9, at level 4 allows movement up to your speed but if you do you can't take or can't have taken a penalty to AC by choice, and at level 8 you can spend a special move action that allows you to redirect attacks to your allies to yourself until your next turn with a penalty of not benefitting from dex and dodge bonuses for those attacks. Bonus fighter feats at level 3, 6, 9.
I think you over value fighter feats...

NigelWalmsley

2020-10-21, 03:54 PM

I don't think that is enough power to be worth loosing 5 caster levels, the idea is to bump these up to being worth playing.

Just make the thing full casting. It's worse than other Gish builds, and if you're not Gishing most of the bonuses are irrelevant. You get small boosts to stats you don't care about, a breath weapon that is substantially worse than blasting spells you already don't cast, and some natural weapons you also don't care about.

GrayDeath

2020-10-21, 04:48 PM

I wold split Dragon Disciple into a Bard and a Sorcerer Entry.

I`d keep what else they give and make it 8/10 for Sorcerers (can still be worth it, given the bonuses), and make it give a full scaling Breath Weapon but keep the rest as is for bards (ergo as a "Make me more martially powerful" Alternative).

But then again, I tend to try doing something like that with most not clearly focussed Prestige CLasses. PF`s Archetypes fault, I guess...

TheStranger

2020-10-21, 08:15 PM

Dragon Disciple needs an identity more than anything else. As-is, you look at the prereqs and think it's a caster PrC, when it really isn't. Somebody upthread described it as a weird martial buff, which sounds about right. it's a class for martials who are willing to dip a caster class to get in, not a class for casters, which is the exact opposite of what it looks like. But once you realize that, I think it's not bad as a martial PrC within a very narrow niche. I once played a Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple that worked just fine. It was very much a "charge, then full attack every round" character, but that's what I signed up for, and for that concept the stat bonuses and bite attack were beneficial, the breath weapon was situationally useful, and free flight is always nice to have. I'm sure there are simpler and more powerful ways to build a melee brute, but I never felt like I had trouble contributing.

All of that said, making it a true gish class with 8/10 casting would be a definite improvement and do a lot more to justify the caster levels needed to enter it. Making the breath weapon more than 1/day would be nice, but that's a secondary benefit and I don't think it would make or break the class if you wanted to keep it in line with the half-dragon template.

NigelWalmsley

2020-10-21, 08:25 PM

If Dragon Disciple is supposed to be a Martial PrC, it needs more of a buff, not less. Casters are fine at high levels, and can get away with getting totally random class features as long as they continue to have level-appropriate spells. Martials, on the other hand, steadily fall behind as the game progresses and need a lot more help.

Darg

2020-10-21, 09:34 PM

I just don't like solving everything with casting. Just make every prc Ur-priest clones and done.

Biggus

2020-10-22, 02:21 AM

What are people's thoughts on Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Hierophant, Horizon Walker, and Shadowdancer? Also if you cool ideas for the others keep bringing them!

I agree with Fouredged Sword that Hierophant becomes a good class just by adding the casting progression, same as Archmage gets. Maybe remove the good Fort save or make it 4/5 casting if that makes it a bit too good.

Arcane Trickster I give 6 skill points per level and reduce the prerequisite arcane spell level from 3rd to 2nd.

Eldritch Knight is not an especially weak class, it's more that it's just a bit dull. Needs a couple of class features maybe, nothing too powerful, just enough to give it an identity of its own.

I'd be interested to hear people's ideas about Mystic Theurge myself, I love the idea of it but the class is a bit underwhelming.

Dragon Disciple needs an identity more than anything else. As-is, you look at the prereqs and think it's a caster PrC, when it really isn't. Somebody upthread described it as a weird martial buff, which sounds about right. it's a class for martials who are willing to dip a caster class to get in, not a class for casters, which is the exact opposite of what it looks like.

Thank you, I was trying to find the right words to describe my problem with DD when I wrote my last post, this is it: it doesn't fit any class very well. It requires you to be a caster and gives bonus spells, but it gives no casting progression. It's not a terrible class for martials, but the lack of full BAB means it's pretty meh even for that. I think to make it a good class, you need to decide what you want it to be: either it's for martials in which case it gets full BAB (the required caster dip means you're losing at least one point of BAB even before you enter it) or it's for casters, in which case it needs a casting progression.

AnimeTheCat

2020-10-22, 02:50 AM

I'd be interested to hear people's ideas about Mystic Theurge myself, I love the idea of it but the class is a bit underwhelming.

Mystic Theurge is in an interesting position. If you make it too good, it's simply the best class in the game. If you don't make it significantly better, it remains the same. The edge it's trying to balance on is razor thin.

I think the best way to improve it is to give it class features that allow it to use it's spells in fun, creative, unexpected, or otherwise interesting ways that a straight class arcane or divine spellcaster can't. If the game had more creatures that were simply immune to a particular magic type (arcane/divine), giving it the ability to cast arcane spells as divine spells, using their divine spellcaster level, spell slots, and casting stat would be amazing, and so with the inverse of that (divine as arcane using arcane resources).

Another idea might be to allow one of your spellcasting progressions to lose a spell, or more, in order to regain previously cast spells. This is less powerful because of the existence of magic items, so I'm not the biggest fan of this, however in lower wealth situations, or in unexpected circumstances, being able to do this would be powerful. Perhaps allow the Mystic Theurge to expend two spells of the same level, or one of a spell level higher in order to spontaneously cast a spell from the other class's spell list? i.e. expend two burning hands to cast bless if you don't have bless prepared, or expend two shield of faiths to cast magic missile.

Fouredged Sword

2020-10-22, 05:54 AM

Mystic Theurge is in an interesting position. If you make it too good, it's simply the best class in the game. If you don't make it significantly better, it remains the same. The edge it's trying to balance on is razor thin.

I think the best way to improve it is to give it class features that allow it to use it's spells in fun, creative, unexpected, or otherwise interesting ways that a straight class arcane or divine spellcaster can't. If the game had more creatures that were simply immune to a particular magic type (arcane/divine), giving it the ability to cast arcane spells as divine spells, using their divine spellcaster level, spell slots, and casting stat would be amazing, and so with the inverse of that (divine as arcane using arcane resources).

Another idea might be to allow one of your spellcasting progressions to lose a spell, or more, in order to regain previously cast spells. This is less powerful because of the existence of magic items, so I'm not the biggest fan of this, however in lower wealth situations, or in unexpected circumstances, being able to do this would be powerful. Perhaps allow the Mystic Theurge to expend two spells of the same level, or one of a spell level higher in order to spontaneously cast a spell from the other class's spell list? i.e. expend two burning hands to cast bless if you don't have bless prepared, or expend two shield of faiths to cast magic missile.
I honestly think Mystic Thurge needs to be broken into two classes that move towards a similar state without requiring duel progression. Duel progression casting is always problematic because it's based around a bad balance point. 3.5 assumes you will have some spells at some levels and has challenges you need those spells to deal with at that CR. With duel progression you ether enter early and are super powerful or enter with the intended class levels and are super behind but with more spells per day.

Remove the dual progression. Make the class about giving arcane casting a divine flavor to the point that someone looking at the class from the outside would have a hard time telling if it's an arcane or divine caster doing the spellslinging.

Arcane Thurge - The class for wizards who want to be clerics. This class represents those who are intellectually inspired by a deity rather than divinely inspired, who study magic as a intellectual art rather than a divine gift, but who's faith and connection to a deity still shine through. This class is equally relevant for an arcane divine champion of a deity or a dark necromancer who worships an evil god.
Prereqs - Knowledge Religion 9 ranks
Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells
Must worship a deity that grants domains. That deity must itself or through it's agents agree to act as your patron, granting you a spark of divine energy.

10 level long PRC, 1/2 BAB, Good fort and Willsave, bad Reflex, 1D8 HD.

Spellcasting - Each level you gain plus one level of arcane spellcasting except for the first level of this class.
Level 1,5,10 - Divine attunement - You gain the granted power of one of your deity's domains. You gain access to a domain granted by your patron at 5th level of arcane thurge and at 10th level of arcane thurge. You gain the granted power of your patron's domain. Any features of this granted ability that reference cleric level instead use your arcane caster level or HD, whatever is lower. You gain the ability to cast spells that would normally not be on your class list through your devotion and study of your patron deity. You gain access to the spells of your deity's domain. These spells are added to your spells known if you are a spontaneous caster. If you are a prepared caster who writes spells into a spellbook you gain divine inspiration that allows you to copy these spells into a spellbook from memory as if you had an arcane scroll of the spell in question. For all casters you treat these spells as if they are arcane spells of the class you are using Arcane Thurge to progress.

Level 2 - Divine power - You cast spells from your patron's domains that you have selected for divine attunement at +1 caster level. This increases to +2 at level 4, +3 at level 6, +4 at level 8 and +5 at level 10.

Level 3 - Faith casting - At level 3 you gain the ability to substitute faith for parts of your normal spellcasting rituals. You may replace any non-costly material component or focus requirement with the use of a divine focus. To replace the use of a focus with this ability the focus required by the spell must be of lower value than the value of the divine focus used. At level 9 you may also replace the somatic spell component with a divine focus when you use this ability.

Level 7 - Arcane Channel - You gain the ability to use arcane energy in place of divine energy to turn or rebuke undead. The alignment of your deity determines if this effect turns or rebukes undead the same way it determines a cleric's ability to turn undead. You do not gain a pool of turn attempts as a cleric though. Instead you must expend a spell slot from an arcane spellcasting class to use this ability. This is a standard action and it turns undead as if you had cleric levels equal to your caster level or HD, whatever is lower, plus the spell level of the spell sacrificed. For all effects of this ability that would use charisma you instead use your intelligence plus the level of the spell expended. If you have turn or rebuke abilities from other classes or that are granted by domains you may use this ability to turn or rebuke creatures of that type instead if you wish. You decide what type of creature you are turning or rebuking each time this class feature is used. You qualify for any feats that improve your ability to turn or rebuke undead as if you had that class feature and this class feature benefits from them as if it was turn or rebuke undead, but this feature does not benefit from anything that would grant you extra uses of turn undead per day. Spells expended in the use of this class feature are expended as if cast.

The other way around is likely best tacked by the Archivist class exactly as is or the Favored Soul appropriately granted turn/rebuke and an increasing number of domains as they level.

Or, for fun, here is a class fixed from the other direction

Priest of the Arcane- A replacement for Ur-priest - A divine caster who learns to use arcane power to replace their deity and can fake being a wizard. This class does not actually require you to fall and may be appropriate for any cleric who wishes to study arcane casting alongside the divine, though if you DO fall it allows you to deal with the fact that your patron no longer wishes to grant you the power that is rightfully yours.

5 level long PRC, 1/2 BAB, Good Willsave, bad Fort and Reflex save. 1d6 HD.

Prerequisites
Knowledge Arcane rank 9
Must have the ability to cast 3rd level divine spells.

Class features -
Level 1 - Arcane trickery - You have learned to substitute the divine power of the god who granted you spellcasting with arcane power when required. You gain the ability to add to any divine spell both material and somatic components. This removed the need to use a divine focus for the spell in question. Such a spell new requires the use of a material component pouch and suffers from arcane spell failure of armor as if it was an arcane spell. You can use this class feature to cast spells even if you have fallen out of favor with the source of your divine casting as you are using arcane power to replace their blessing. You no longer lose any class features that are granted to you by any class that would be lost for alignment violations or by falling out of favor with a deity. The deity in question may still send agents to stop you, but cannot remove your powers directly anymore.

Level 2 - Arcane adaptability - Why stop with just faking the power of a single god? You can fake any god. You gain the domain power and domain spells of any domain regardless of your alignment, racial requirement, or if you worship any god that has this domain. You gain a second domain at level 4.

Level 3 - Arcane flexibility - You gain the ability to expend a divine spell slot up to 3rd level to cast the spell "Anyspell". When using this ability instead of being restricted to casting an arcane spell of 2nd level or lower you may cast an arcane spell of one level lower than the spell slot expended. The spell prepaired by the casting of Anyspell occupied the expended spell slot just as it would normally occupy the caster's 3rd level domain slot.

Level 5 - Arcane Mastery - You can now use arcane flexibility by expending any divine spell slot of any level.

NigelWalmsley

2020-10-22, 07:37 AM

Mystic Theurge's problem is that a 3/3 split results in your casting being delayed too much. If you look at optimized Theurge type builds, the accepted split seems to be 3/1 or 4/1. So I would tweak the pre-reqs to allow that, then give them a smattering of class features that are fairly minor. Not sure exactly what.

TheStranger

2020-10-22, 07:54 AM

I like the idea of giving Mystic Theurge some abilities to create synergy between the two classes. The spell-swapping one seems like a good start. Another idea would be using your higher casting stat for bonus spells and save DCs for all spells. Maybe even something that allows you to cast both an arcane and a divine spell at the same time, probably with the limit that one of them must be a lower-level spell.

SirNibbles

2020-10-22, 09:16 AM

I think Arcane Archer needs a full rewrite to remove rules ambiguity in addition to balancing it.

The most broken ability, of course, is Imbue Arrow.

At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Dungeon Master's Guide, page 177

Possible interpretations:

1. You can only choose a single spell to be able to use with Imbue Arrow.
1a. That spell has to be a spell on your class's spell list that you are able to cast.
1b. That spell has to be a spell on your class's spell list.
1c. That spell can be any spell.

2. You can cast any area spell on an arrow.
2a. That spell has to be a spell on your class's spell list that you are able to cast.
2b. That spell has to be a spell on your class's spell list.
2c. That spell can be any spell.

_

3. Since you are using a spell-like ability, you don't consume a use of your spells/day of whatever spell you cast (allowing unlimited blasting with just a two level dip).

4. You consume a use of spells/day of whatever spell you cast (and must thus have the spell prepared if you do not cast spontaneously).

_

5. You are not actually casting a spell, but using a spell-like ability, so you cannot apply Metamagic feats.
a. You can apply feats that affect Spell-Like abilities.
b. You cannot apply feats that affect Spell-Like Abilities because you're not duplicating a spell with the SLA- you're actually casting the spell.

6. You are actually casting a spell as part of the action so you can apply Metamagic feats to that spell.
a. You can apply feats that affect Spell-Like abilities because you're still using a SLA.
b. You cannot apply feats that affect Spell-Like Abilities because you're not duplicating a spell with the SLA- you're actually casting the spell.

_

7. The spell's area is centered on where the arrow lands.

8. The spell's origin is where the arrow lands. For cones, the length of the cone is equal to the original range of the spell.

What I believe to be the correct interpretation:
Imbue Arrow gives you the ability to, as a standard action, cast any area spell you know (and have prepared, for prepared casters) and fire a single arrow. The point at which the arrow lands is considered the origin of the AoE effect. (This means you don't get giant cones).

Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted. If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time.

Rules Compendium, page 118

Regardless of the casting time of the spell, because it is stated to take a standard action, it takes a standard action. If you can apply the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat (which I would argue you can't), it would take a swift action to cast the spell and fire the arrow.

I think classing Imbue Arrow and the other Arcane Archer abilities as SLAs is a mistake. It would be better to borrow from similar abilities which came in later books, such as the Havoc Mage's Battle Cast (Ex) (Miniatures Handbook, page 20) which allows him to make a melee attack and cast a spell as a full round action. Some abilities would be better off as (Su), such as Phase Arrow, Seeker Arrow, and Arrow of Death. Hail of Arrows makes sense as (Ex).

Celestia

2020-10-22, 10:55 AM

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-22, 11:46 AM

Mystic Theurge

Prerequisites:
Ability to cast first level arcane spells
Ability to cast first level divine spells
Ability to cast second levels spells

Features:
Casting progression of 10/10 for both arcane and divine casting

At level 1: Can prepare or spontaneously cast arcane spells in/with divine spell slots at one level higher, and vice-versa. So, for example, you can prepare Magic Missile in a 2nd level cleric slot. Or spontaneously cast Cure Light Wounds with a 2nd level sorcerer slot. The spell counts as arcane/divine and uses the appropriate ability modifier for saves based on the slot the spell came from. So, Magic Missile is cast as a divine spell using wisdom (though, like with metamagic, it still counts as a first level spell for saves).

At level 5: You can use your arcane primary casting ability for your divine spells if it is higher and vice-versa. So, if your sorcerer/cleric has a wisdom score of 17 and a charisma score of 18, then you can use charisma for all your cleric spells.

At level 10: When using your first level ability, you can now use slots of the same level rather than a higher level. So, you can prepare Magic Missile in a 1st level cleric slot, and spontaneously cast Cure Light Wounds with a 1st level sorcerer slot.
Not that this won't work, but I feel like it's a bit... boring. You basically just get more spell slots. If you want to meld the types of spellcasting, just bolt Geomancer onto Mystic Theurge and call it a day (Geomancer really should be a theurge).

I would instead go the Mind Mage route: expend one type of magic to empower the other. For example, anytime you can cast the same spell from both an arcane and divine slot, you can cast it using both slots. The spell then counts as either arcane or divine for any ability it encounters (e.g. it could affect an ethergaunt defiant) and gets a bonus to CL equal to the second slot used to cast it (e.g. plane shift cast using a cleric 5th and wizard 8th is either an 8th-level spell with +5 CL, or a 5th-level spell with +8 CL, player's choice--you get the components, spell effect etc. of the first slot).

You can grant the ability at level 1, since it scales with maximum spell level known. If that's too much at once, say that you can't expend your highest two levels of slots as secondary slots, and allow those at level 4 and 7. Then you've got your capstone at 10 (add both casting stats to the DC of any combined spells you cast), and done.

Oh, and I'd make the class 15 levels long, though without features past level 10 (maybe a bonus feat at 15).

Fouredged Sword

2020-10-22, 11:52 AM

Not that this won't work, but I feel like it's a bit... boring. You basically just get more spell slots. If you want to meld the types of spellcasting, just bolt Geomancer onto Mystic Theurge and call it a day (Geomancer really should be a theurge).

I would instead go the Mind Mage route: expend one type of magic to empower the other. For example, anytime you can cast the same spell from both an arcane and divine slot, you can cast it using both slots. The spell then counts as either arcane or divine for any ability it encounters (e.g. it could affect an ethergaunt defiant) and gets a bonus to CL equal to the second slot used to cast it (e.g. plane shift cast using a cleric 5th and wizard 8th is either an 8th-level spell with +5 CL, or a 5th-level spell with +8 CL, player's choice--you get the components, spell effect etc. of the first slot).

You can grant the ability at level 1, since it scales with maximum spell level known. If that's too much at once, say that you can't expend your highest two levels of slots as secondary slots, and allow those at level 4 and 7. Then you've got your capstone at 10 (add both casting stats to the DC of any combined spells you cast), and done.

Oh, and I'd make the class 15 levels long, though without features past level 10 (maybe a bonus feat at 15).

I have wondered if the game would benefit from a rule that said "All Prestiege classes can continue to be taken after the listed class levels are complete and grant no additional class features but do increase the class level dependent class features the class already has including features that grant bonuses every X levels"

Basically you would be able to just continue taking any PRC once you completed the listed class levels almost like a quasi-epic class progression.

Celestia

2020-10-22, 12:16 PM

Not that this won't work, but I feel like it's a bit... boring. You basically just get more spell slots. If you want to meld the types of spellcasting, just bolt Geomancer onto Mystic Theurge and call it a day (Geomancer really should be a theurge).
You're combining two tier one casters. Even the default Mystic Theurge with a 3/3 entry is more powerful than 98% of all builds. They don't need fancy, power-biosting class features. Besides, getting tons of spell slots is literally the entire identity of the Mystic Theurge. If you want something else, go to a different prestige class.

I would instead go the Mind Mage route: expend one type of magic to empower the other. For example, anytime you can cast the same spell from both an arcane and divine slot, you can cast it using both slots. The spell then counts as either arcane or divine for any ability it encounters (e.g. it could affect an ethergaunt defiant) and gets a bonus to CL equal to the second slot used to cast it (e.g. plane shift cast using a cleric 5th and wizard 8th is either an 8th-level spell with +5 CL, or a 5th-level spell with +8 CL, player's choice--you get the components, spell effect etc. of the first slot).

You can grant the ability at level 1, since it scales with maximum spell level known. If that's too much at once, say that you can't expend your highest two levels of slots as secondary slots, and allow those at level 4 and 7. Then you've got your capstone at 10 (add both casting stats to the DC of any combined spells you cast), and done.

Oh, and I'd make the class 15 levels long, though without features past level 10 (maybe a bonus feat at 15).
That would make Mystic Theurge indisputably the most powerful option. Sacrificing one caster level for a +5 to caster level? Can I say YES loud enough? This is even more obscene than Incantatrix, and it only gets worse with each passing level. Mystic Theurge should stand toe-to-toe with the other casters, not leave them in the dust.

NigelWalmsley

2020-10-22, 01:07 PM

You're combining two tier one casters. Even the default Mystic Theurge with a 3/3 entry is more powerful than 98% of all builds. They don't need fancy, power-biosting class features. Besides, getting tons of spell slots is literally the entire identity of the Mystic Theurge. If you want something else, go to a different prestige class.

"All builds" includes things like "Monk 5/Truenamer 5/Soulknife 5/Marshal 5". The relevant comparison point is casters, and Mystic Theurge clearly falters there. Also, once you start lighting casting on fire, Tier falls fast. At -3 levels, Cleric and Wizard are somewhere at the bottom of T2 if they're lucky, and there isn't really synergy to boost you. Even going down a level puts the Wizard disturbingly close to on par with Dread Necromancers and Beguilers for most of the game.

And, of course, you don't have to play a Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theurge. You could just as easily play a Warmage/Healer/Mystic Theurge. If you balance PrCs to try to keep the best classes in line, you inevitably end up stepping on the little guy.

That would make Mystic Theurge indisputably the most powerful option. Sacrificing one caster level for a +5 to caster level? Can I say YES loud enough? This is even more obscene than Incantatrix, and it only gets worse with each passing level. Mystic Theurge should stand toe-to-toe with the other casters, not leave them in the dust.

How exactly do you expect to use that caster level bonus to break the game to a degree comparable to Incantatrix?

Prime32

2020-10-22, 02:51 PM

Arcane Archer
Duskblade was created in the time since this class, which could provide inspiration. If you don't like the elf prereq, you could borrow from the example of Elven Spell LorePHB2 - add a feat like Alertness to the prereqs, then add a Special entry saying that elves and half-elves can qualify without Alertness.

At lv1, gets the ability to channel rays and ranged touch spells through bows. At higher levels, can convert area and melee touch spells into rays for this purpose.
Remove Enhance Arrow. Instead it can use weapon augmentation, personalECS as a spell-like ability at will (swift action, but lasts for only 1 round). This improves to weapon augmentation at lv5, and greater weapon augmentation at lv9. In all cases, this functions only for a bow wielded by you. Basically you get to temporarily apply any weapon property from +1 to +5 in value, which fits the popular "trick arrows for different situations" flavour.
(Optional) Remove Weapon Focus prereq. Reduce the class to 3/4 BAB, then grant a "Bow Focus" class feature at lv1 which grants Weapon Focus in all bows. At lv5 this improves to Greater Weapon Focus in all bows. At lv10 this improves to Ranged Weapon MasteryPHB2 (piercing).
+1 arcane spellcasting at levels 2-3, 5-6 and 8-9. However, elves and half-elves can enter the class without any levels in a spellcasting class, in which case they gain 10/10 wizard or sorcerer casting (chosen at 1st level).
Arrow of Death save DC = 20 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Even on a successful save, the target is staggered for 1 round.

Dragon Disciple
Should take into account the newer material in Complete Arcane, Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic. There are some nice bonuses in there, like Draconic Claw letting you make a claw attack as a swift action after casting a spell. One option would be to grant them magic of the dragonheartDM as a spell-like ability at will (caster level = 2x class level), which is a spell that exists solely to trigger the effects of draconic feats at enhanced power.

So let's say...

Remove the Spellcasting prereq. Change Race to "Must have the dragonblooded subtype (cannot have the Dragon type)" and include a note that the Dragontouched feat provides easy access to this subtype.
Swap the positions of the lv1 natural armor bonus and the lv2 Strength bonus. This establishes your combat focus earlier on.
At 1st level you gain Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat (or a bonus draconic feat of your choice, if you already have Draconic Heritage). Since this requires you to select a dragon variety, the "Special" section can be removed from prereqs.
Remove bonus spells. Instead gains "+1 spontaneous arcane spellcasting" at every even level. You can always gain sorcerer casting at these levels, even if you had none before entering the class.
Greater Draconic Power: At 2nd level you gain Draconic Power as a bonus feat, except that the bonus = half your dragon disciple level, plus half your levels in classes which don't provide spellcasting. This means that even though your casting doesn't advance much, the CL and save DCs of your low-level spells will be high enough to stay relevant.
If you have the Draconic Claw feat, your claws and bite deal damage as one size larger.
Breath Weapon deals 1d8 damage per character level (not class level) and can be used every 1d4+1 rounds.

Dwarven Defender
Start over. Replace its abilities with stuff like:

Change feat prereqs to "Endurance, Steadfast DeterminationPHB2".
Combat Reflexes based on Constitution, or +1 AoO/class level.
Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike as a crusader of 3 + your class level, stacking with levels of crusader.
Larger than Life: At 1st level a dwarven defender can adjust his stance in order to take up more space than normal. This functions as the enlarge person spell, except that it is a nonmagical effect which stacks with actual size changes. The dwarven defender takes none of the drawbacks of his larger size (e.g. he doesn't take a size penalty to attack rolls or AC, and can fit into spaces of his original size without penalty).
When a dwarven defender takes the total defence action, he can still make attacks of opportunity, and threatens as if wielding both a normal and reach weapon.
Fortified Defence: When a dwarven defender takes the total defence action, or when he moves 5ft or less, until his next turn he also gains Evasion and Mettle.
Covering: If the dwarven defender or one of his allies is targeted by an attack or special attack which passes through one of his threatened squares, they receive a +4 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus on all saving throws against it. This bonus is similar to, but stacks with, the effects of cover.

Shadowdancer
Has a bunch of legacy weirdness, including the barren non-evil shadow. Nowadays has to compete with shadow magic, warlocks and the Shadow Hand discipline for its thematic niche.

Requirements: Remove the feat prereqs. Add Evasion and "ability to cast darkness or deeper darkness as a spell or spell-like ability. The warlock's darkness and hungry darkness invocations count as the darkness spell for this purpose.". These are more thematic, yet easier to pick up at the last minute - you can handle the magical angle with a 1-level dip, or by being a drow or tiefling.
1st level grants the darkness and devil's sight invocations as a warlock. Move Hide in Plain Sight to lv2, replacing Darkvision and Evasion.
1st level also grants Silent Spell on all your spells for free. It's not a major benefit (even if you have spells to apply it to, you lost levels picking up evasion) but it's flavorful.
Sudden Strike progression of +1d6 every three levels.
Summon Shadow functions as a familiar with the stats of a Medium Shadow Elemental.ToM
Shadow Illusion: Silent image is an lv1 spell with a duration of Concentration. It's okay to make it at-will, honest; especially at character level 10+.
Make Shadow Jump usable at-will, but keep the maximum distance limitation. At 6th level you can use it without ending your turn. At 9th level you can use it as a move action.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-22, 04:05 PM

That would make Mystic Theurge indisputably the most powerful option. Sacrificing one caster level for a +5 to caster level? Can I say YES loud enough? This is even more obscene than Incantatrix, and it only gets worse with each passing level. Mystic Theurge should stand toe-to-toe with the other casters, not leave them in the dust.
Well.... no, it wouldn't.

First of all, to get the CL boost, you need to get the same spell on both spell lists, and sacrifice two spell slots. Not only is that not trivial, it also encourages theurge builds where the cleric is clearly arcane-inclined, with e.g. the Divine Magician ACF, or the wizard is clearly divine-incipled, with e.g. Arcane Disciple. Getting the most out of Mystic Theurge means picking options that make sense, flavour-wise. Always a nice benefit.
Second, Circle Magic boosts CL more for cheaper, so at the very least Halruaan Elder and Hathran are still ahead of Mystic Theurge.
Third, consumptive field (+death knell, if you want to be pedantic) already provides a minimum of +spell slot CL to any cleric with at least 4ths, and all it takes to make that last all day is three excellent feats.
Fourth, even friggin' Archmage can provide +5 CL for five 5th-level slots. You know what else provides +5 CL? Suffer the flesh, second-level spell, requires a rod of bodily restoration and Persist, but that's cheap enough to get. +10 CL all day long, no sweat.
Fifth, Ultimate Magus provides +4 CL and the ability to apply metamagic by expending slots--even Persistent Spell is on the table. Would you consider a metamagic feat that provides +1 CL/extra slot level to be "indisputably the most powerful option?". Because that's the equivalent this Mystic Theurge is getting.
Sixth, I disagree that the point of Mystic Theurge is to have a ton of spell slots. That's what it's good for now, because that's all you get from the class. But just because it's a boring class now, doesn't mean the point is to be boring. In my view, it's supposed to blend the character's arcane magic and divine magic into a (stronger) whole. So that's why I took the "tons of slots" feature and said: 'Let's have a way to set slots on fire for a boost that isn't too powerful'. I deliberately avoided the free metamagic for this one :smalltongue:.

A build along the lines of illumian wizard 4/sorcerer 1/ultimate magus 10 already gets +4+5 CL for all spells with a three-feat investment (and a 3100 gp rod). Plus the ability to Persist 7 more spells each day. Is the Mystic Theurge stronger than that?

I mean, it's undisputably a huge buff to the Mystic Theurge. But even then, there's a host of classes that are still way more powerful.

liquidformat

2021-01-11, 03:40 PM

Hey finally had time to hop back into this one, updated the initial post with some changes so take a look and let me know your thoughts.

Eldritch Knight: This is pretty bare bones

Add Arcane Channeling as the duskblade ability at level 2
Arcane Channeling can use ray spells at level 4
Arcane Channeling use ranged touch spells at level 6
Arcane Channeling use ray spells at level 8
Arcane Channeling full attack level 10
Duskblades qualify for PRE once they have Arcane Channeling, they gain a bonus fighter/metamagic feat at level 2 in place of the arcane channeling they already have
add bonus fighter feats at 5,7,9?

What about doing a change like this for Eldritch Knight? It does step on Duskblade's toes but also helps duskblades. I almost debate if there is a way to make this more focused on duskblades, like adding bonus spells that are chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that must be touch, ranged touch, or ray spells?

Thank you, I was trying to find the right words to describe my problem with DD when I wrote my last post, this is it: it doesn't fit any class very well. It requires you to be a caster and gives bonus spells, but it gives no casting progression. It's not a terrible class for martials, but the lack of full BAB means it's pretty meh even for that. I think to make it a good class, you need to decide what you want it to be: either it's for martials in which case it gets full BAB (the required caster dip means you're losing at least one point of BAB even before you enter it) or it's for casters, in which case it needs a casting progression.
You can actually get into DD with just taking Magical Training feat and a second Educated, Knowledge Devotion or any other feat that gives you Knowledge arcane as a class skill as is.

Any other thoughts on Shadowdancer?

Wildstag

2021-01-11, 06:39 PM

liquidformat

2021-01-11, 07:18 PM

I'll be honest, I love the idea of Duskblade getting rays and ranged touch attacks in a full attack channel, but also the Duskblade gets Enervation on its spell list, which is kinda yikes. Provided they beat Spell Resistance, you're looking at 4d4 negative levels in one turn. That trivializes basically every enemy out there.

Alternatively, you're looking at Disintegrate in a full-attack. These are encounter-deciding spells with 4x effectiveness.

I love Duskblades, but this is kinda ridiculous.

hmm yeah I think rays in general cause problems if they could be used in full attack, ray of enfeeblement would potentially do 4d6+20 str damage, Ray of Exhaustion either let's you hit 4 people or gives you 4 chances to exhaust someone. Seems like an easy fix to make rays only ever work with a single standard action attack and not full attack version.

Darg

2021-01-11, 07:26 PM

ngilop

2021-01-11, 08:04 PM

I did a thread where I made some Prestige classes worth it, a few of them the DMG PrCs and then from another books as well

Check it out here, yo. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?311379-Insert-fixed-PrC-here!)

As always, still taking requests for new ones.

Wildstag

2021-01-11, 09:50 PM

hmm yeah I think rays in general cause problems if they could be used in full attack, ray of enfeeblement would potentially do 4d6+20 str damage, Ray of Exhaustion either let's you hit 4 people or gives you 4 chances to exhaust someone. Seems like an easy fix to make rays only ever work with a single standard action attack and not full attack version.

Or you could copy the Hold Ray ability from the Enlightened Fist! It preserves the option of getting a full-attack, but only delivering the spell once.

liquidformat

2021-01-11, 11:29 PM

Arcane channeling says it affects each target. Where does it say that it discharges on every attack for the same target?

Either way it works really well with 2 level dip in bloodstorm blade and Whirlwind attack.

ah good point, I reread the full attack ability and it does in fact say 'the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round'. So I think the ability would be fine as is. It does give a large boost to duskblades but doesn't break anything.

Wildstag

2021-01-11, 11:58 PM

ah good point, I reread the full attack ability and it does in fact say 'the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round'. So I think the ability would be fine as is. It does give a large boost to duskblades but doesn't break anything.

It also says from the first part of the ability this:
If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved

The reasonable reading would be that in a full attack action, each individual swing resolves the effect of the spell and weapon damage. It would be as effective with Whirlwind Attack as it would be with targeting a single foe. Note that it would have a line about "a spell can only affect a target once per round" if it was intended to not allow single-target burst damage. Heck, it could have just said "the spell affects each target once when you hit in melee combat that round" it the intent was to not allow for single-target burst. I think you would struggle to find someone on this board that reads it otherwise aside from yourself Darg. Or at the very least, whenever I've seen Duskblade brought up, the option of single-target nova is the main draw of the class.

And because it lacks such a rider to the line, a ray spell held in full attack Arcane Channeling would resolve the spell's effect for each successful hit, whether on one target or on several.

If it only affected each target once, it would not deserve its rank in tier 3. It's not often in high-level combat that you can stand within range of 3 or 4 targets and actually survive more than a round (especially as MAD as the class is and with its d8 HD and lack of defensive spells).

TL;DR: The "each target" applies both to a single target and to multiple targets. It's there to specify that you can spread the effect around on a full attack, but it also allows for nova. It does not say it only affects each target once.

P.S. I don't think it's a broken class as is, but the chance for multiple negative level inducing attacks on any gish in one round is kinda ridiculous. And there's better spell lists out there where a gish could benefit from this class, not just Duskblades.

Darg

2021-01-12, 12:24 AM

TL;DR: The "each target" applies both to a single target and to multiple targets. It's there to specify that you can spread the effect around on a full attack, but it also allows for nova. It does not say it only affects each target once.

Why would it default to that? Like with spells, the default would be to affect each target once. I don't see clerics rolling out mass inflict wounds, declaring a single enemy as multiple targets. The norm is that targeted abilities and spells tell you if they can hit the same target more than once.

The reasonable reading would be that in a full attack action, each individual swing resolves the effect of the spell and weapon damage. It would be as effective with Whirlwind Attack as it would be with targeting a single foe. Note that it would have a line about "a spell can only affect a target once per round" if it was intended to not allow single-target burst damage.

That is not a reasonable reading. You are taking the rules text for the standard action with a single attack as the overriding factor.

the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round.

This is the relevant rules text that tells you how it functions on a full attack. A target is only a target once unless otherwise stated. Unless you have rules text other than ability text that says otherwise?

Wildstag

2021-01-12, 01:26 AM

Why would it default to that? Like with spells, the default would be to affect each target once. I don't see clerics rolling out mass inflict wounds, declaring a single enemy as multiple targets. The norm is that targeted abilities and spells tell you if they can hit the same target more than once.

That is not a reasonable reading. You are taking the rules text for the standard action with a single attack as the overriding factor.

This is the relevant rules text that tells you how it functions on a full attack. A target is only a target once unless otherwise stated. Unless you have rules text other than ability text that says otherwise?

You're thinking of this only in terms of ranged touch attacks. Arcane Channeling is worded the way it is because Touch spells rarely (I'll not say never, because I probably just don't remember the exceptions) affect more than one target. The "each target" line is to say "hey, you're effectively getting four-times effectiveness out of your spell". So when the Duskblade channels a touch spell, that touch spell doesn't get expended on one target, it can effect multiples. It's a line that allows for multiple targets without preventing the spell from effecting a single target more than once.

That's why the Ray-Channeling would be strong, and it's why the Hold Ray ability specifies it can only work on one attack that hits. There's a lot of rays that aren't on the Duskblade list, and with entry from other classes possible, you'd be seeing some shenanigans with this modified EK.

P.S. Also, in the comment explaining this better EK, you repeated the "EK can use rays" so that they get the same ability at level 8 that they get at level 4. Also, are there ranged touch spells that AREN'T rays? The srd only mentions "ranged touch" in one line on the spell descriptions page, and it's in the description of a ray.

Quentinas

2021-01-12, 05:32 AM

A ranged touch that is not a ray is quite easy , for example Orb of X (insert element here) but it's true that weapon focus (ranged spell) influence both the ray spells that the ranged touch spells, without any mention of weapon focus (ray) in complete arcane but is strange because expanded psionic handbook have a feat that require weapon focus (ray) so maybe they are two different things?

Darg

2021-01-12, 10:28 AM

You're thinking of this only in terms of ranged touch attacks.

When is mass inflict wounds a ranged touch attack? Magic missiles?

Arcane Channeling is worded the way it is because Touch spells rarely (I'll not say never, because I probably just don't remember the exceptions) affect more than one target. The "each target" line is to say "hey, you're effectively getting four-times effectiveness out of your spell". So when the Duskblade channels a touch spell, that touch spell doesn't get expended on one target, it can effect multiples. It's a line that allows for multiple targets without preventing the spell from effecting a single target more than once.

Chill Touch goes out of it's way to say that each touch attack you make delivers the spell. Notice the difference? Each attack vs each target.

That's why the Ray-Channeling would be strong, and it's why the Hold Ray ability specifies it can only work on one attack that hits. There's a lot of rays that aren't on the Duskblade list, and with entry from other classes possible, you'd be seeing some shenanigans with this modified EK.

It never specifies that it only works on one target. It just never specifies that it works on multiple targets.

Wildstag

2021-01-12, 12:37 PM

When is mass inflict wounds a ranged touch attack? Magic missiles?

Good to see people on this forum never change and ignore context only when it suits their purpose. Arcane Channeling is worded the way it is because it only works with Touch spells. Applying the same wording without any changes to Ranged Touch spells means that it would work the same way.

Inserting a Mass spell into this discussion is like inserting the Cuban Missile Crisis into a discussion about Dairy Queen; it's entirely irrelevant because the two systems in no way interact with each other.

It never specifies that it only works on one target. It just never specifies that it works on multiple targets.

Hold Ray (Ex): At 7th level or higher, an enlightened fist can cast any spell that produces a ray effect as a touch spell instead. The spell's range is reduced to touch, and its Effect entry is replaced with "Target: Creature touched." She can deliver the spell with a touch attack or with a normal attack, and she can hold the charge as with a normal touch spell. An enlightened fist can combine this ability with arcane fist (see above) to deliver a ray-effect spell as part of an unarmed full attack action.

Arcane Fist (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, an enlightened fist can spend one of her daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike attack she makes during the action.

So yes, next time you try to use a counterargument, at least make sure it actually makes sense. Hold Ray specifies that you can deliver a ray-effect spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. Arcane Fist specifies that you deliver the spell with any single unarmed strike made during the action. Ergo, Hold Ray is specifically written so that it only works on one target, because an unarmed strike can't effect multiple targets in one attack (as far as I know, but if there exists an exception, let me know, that'll be a fun build to make).

Hold Ray is designed to only work with one attack in a full-round attack, because some rays are stupidly strong if you effectively get a tripled spell instead of a twinned spell (because who's going to land that last +5 iterative attack?). A tripled Enervation or Polar Ray or Disintegration (just listing those off of the Duskblade spell list) is bonkers.

This "Better" Eldritch Knight still leaves the possibility of getting 9th level spells. Thus, a full-round attack could result in a player channeling Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels per hit) and getting triple effectiveness out of it. Or Anti-Magic Ray (more likely due to the lower spell level). Basically, getting a free triple-cast effect of higher level rays is ridiculous. I'd really only consider it a fair trade-off if it was as limited as Hold Ray is with Enlightened Fist. Maybe not restricted to unarmed strikes, but definitely to just one attack.

Darg

2021-01-12, 02:47 PM

Good to see people on this forum never change and ignore context only when it suits their purpose.

Apparently ditto?

Arcane Channeling is worded the way it is because it only works with Touch spells. Applying the same wording without any changes to Ranged Touch spells means that it would work the same way.

And yet it still doesn't allow you to hit the same target twice unless you have a touch spell that allows you to such as chill touch.

Inserting a Mass spell into this discussion is like inserting the Cuban Missile Crisis into a discussion about Dairy Queen; it's entirely irrelevant because the two systems in no way interact with each other.

Actually they do because you are ignoring everything else I am saying. They provide a history to understand what is being said in the ability text.

So yes, next time you try to use a counterargument, at least make sure it actually makes sense. Hold Ray specifies that you can deliver a ray-effect spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. Arcane Fist specifies that you deliver the spell with any single unarmed strike made during the action. Ergo, Hold Ray is specifically written so that it only works on one target, because an unarmed strike can't effect multiple targets in one attack (as far as I know, but if there exists an exception, let me know, that'll be a fun build to make).

Hold Ray and Arcane Fist are separate abilities. Maybe specify you are talking about the combo instead? Touch spells can already be held to be unleashed during an unarmed full attack.

Hold Ray is designed to only work with one attack in a full-round attack, because some rays are stupidly strong if you effectively get a tripled spell instead of a twinned spell (because who's going to land that last +5 iterative attack?). A tripled Enervation or Polar Ray or Disintegration (just listing those off of the Duskblade spell list) is bonkers.

This "Better" Eldritch Knight still leaves the possibility of getting 9th level spells. Thus, a full-round attack could result in a player channeling Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels per hit) and getting triple effectiveness out of it. Or Anti-Magic Ray (more likely due to the lower spell level). Basically, getting a free triple-cast effect of higher level rays is ridiculous. I'd really only consider it a fair trade-off if it was as limited as Hold Ray is with Enlightened Fist. Maybe not restricted to unarmed strikes, but definitely to just one attack.

Spell Channeling as presented by the duskblade ability does not give any permission to have the effect affect a single target more than once. That requires explicit permission as given by chill touch and similar touch spells. It's utterly ridiculous to think that the ability gives permission to unleash a full spell such as scorching ray per attack on the same target. Your interpretation allows you to surround yourself with targets and use Whirlwind Attack to make all the attacks against a single target.

Quentinas

2021-01-12, 03:21 PM

Wildstag

2021-01-12, 03:43 PM

A level 13th duskblade can be in the middle of the enemy and using his full attack action striking each time a different target channeling a touch spell that affect each target that is hitted. The main faq of the 3.5 ( that are on the web archive ) say that. Use the same spell on the same target for each time is hitted? It is not possible by the FAQ not even with chill touch as

With chill touch we are in the same case before as the example (that is above) says that can affect only a creature for attack so is not a contradiction
There is a case of a duskblade that can channel ray spells (and only ray not spells like orb of fire) with his arcane channeling but only at level 20 and only doing a duskblade 13 enlightened fist 7 so by comparing the eldritch knight there are 7 level before if we consider a duskblade 9/eldritch knight 4 , but only three levels before if we consider the full attack of a duskblade (duskblade 13/eldritch knigth 4) but many less feat and complication so assuming the same restriction of the arcane channeling of a duskblade so no way to use the same spell more time on the same target
The problem could be not with the duskblade and eldritch knigth interaction but with other arcane spellcaster classes for example a battle sorcerer could do the full attack channeling only 4 level later (assuming one level of any class to gain martial weapon proficiencies with any weapon example battle sorcerer 6/fighter 1) but while having so much stronger spellcasting than a duskblade

Ah damn, I figured there was something I missed. I'd forgotten the FAQ was actually worth something in this edition after having dealt with Pathfinder's backwards FAQs for the longest time.

That colors my perception of the Duskblade then: they're so MAD, have a low HD, and lack defensive spells; why are they considered T3 with those weaknesses? If they only have damage, but can't do burst damage to a single target, it's weaker than basically every alternative. Aside from Dispelling Touch, there aren't really good options for the Duskblade to channel from their higher level slots. Shocking Grasp isn't really a good option, and getting more elemental damage types from it requires heavy feat investment.

And yeah, the issue of other spell lists or higher level spell-casting is my primary issue with this; there are some big rays that a wizard could deploy with the "Better EK". It's basically a twinned spell (but twice as good) with good spell lists.

Basically, I don't think there's a good option for channeling Ranged Touch Attacks into a full-attack, even when you do have to spread the damage out. That's Enervation or Energy Drain (or both for 3d4 stacking negative levels) that you can dish out in two rounds.

Hold Ray and Arcane Fist are separate abilities. Maybe specify you are talking about the combo instead? Touch spells can already be held to be unleashed during an unarmed full attack.

Also, good to see you don't actually read either me or the direct quotes of the abilities. Hold Ray directly refers to Arcane Fist. Thus, anything that Arcane Fist restricts is ALSO part of the Hold Ray ability. Seriously, how do you ignore something like that while arguing your point about Arcane Channeling for two pages. We're already discussing two abilities working in concert with each other and you ignore it when it suits your purposes?