Polearm Wielding Gish

[CMCC]

Are there any Polearm Gishes builds out there that are viable (reasonably effective)?

1/3 and 1/2 casters are fine to include but I’m more curious about anything in that 3/5 caster and above range.

I feel like a straight EK or Paladin can do this perfectly fine - but once you start diving into heavier spellcasting builds does a polearm no longer make sense - especially with PAM or GWM feats. Does it become too ASI starved?

Also builds that pretty much require strength magic items would not count as viable in my eyes. But if that’s the only way to make it work - I’d be interested to see the build.

EDIT: is there room for booming blade/ GFB in any of these builds?

EDIT 2:
So it sounds like Hexblade is the way to go here, if we want to go beyond the 1/2 casting Paladin.

Hexblade straight through. PAM, GWM, maybe sentinel, and def max charisma. Pact of the blade of course. Stick with hex until elemental weapon comes online then at lvl12 with hex warrior, thirsting blade, life drinker, and elemental weapon you’re doing pretty crazy damage.

2d10 + 20 + 1d4 + 10 + 6d4 = 11 + 30 + 17.5 = 58.5 (correct my math, please). Add another 12 for hexblade’s curse = 70.5 (assumes all hit)

EB allows for a much stronger ranged attack than most paladins and the higher level spells gets you elemental weapon and banishing smite much faster along with AOE spells like synaptic static.

Personally, it drives me nuts not to have a couple slots at 1st level for shield or absorb elements, so I would personally consider a dip into sorcerer or cleric if I wanted heavy armor. Maybe even wizard for some nice 1st levels rituals, shield, and AE.

[Sparky McDibben]

Are there any Polearm Gishes builds out there that are viable (reasonably effective)?

1/3 and 1/2 casters are fine to include but I’m more curious about anything in that 3/5 caster and above range.

I feel like a straight EK or Paladin can do this perfectly fine - but once you start diving into heavier spellcasting builds does a polearm no longer make sense - especially with PAM or GWM feats. Does it become too ASI starved?

Also builds that pretty much require strength magic items would not count as viable in my eyes. But if that’s the only way to make it work - I’d be interested to see the build.

Conquest. Paladin. See Legimus' guide for how to play this in a way that makes NPCs wet themselves.

[cutlery]

Basically any character who has proficiency with martial weapons and a spare ASI for polearm mastery will work. Hexblade, All Paladins, Fighter EK, and multiclasses built with some of same.

I'd think about the other parts of the build first - what spells do you want? What sort of armor do you want?

Think about GWM, and if you multiclass, think about getting Paladin 11 or Hexblade warlock 12 for IDS or Lifedrinker, as that adds to the damage of the bonus action attack.

[CMCC]

Basically any character who has proficiency with martial weapons and a spare ASI for polearm mastery will work. Hexblade, All Paladins, Fighter EK, and multiclasses built with some of same.

I'd think about the other parts of the build first - what spells do you want? What sort of armor do you want?

Think about GWM, and if you multiclass, think about getting Paladin 11 or Hexblade warlock 12 for IDS or Lifedrinker, as that adds to the damage of the bonus action attack.

I keep running into bonus action issues where that extra attack PAM clause seems to conflict with things like hex or so many of the Paladin spells or quicken if you go sorcadin route.

I also feel booming blade gets taken off the books which seems like such a waste for a Gish build.

[CMCC]

Conquest. Paladin. See Legimus' guide for how to play this in a way that makes NPCs wet themselves.

Is that as spellcaster heavy as we can go or does moving into sorcerer or hexblade start taking away from PAM and GWM effectiveness?

[RogueJK]

I feel like a straight EK or Paladin can do this perfectly fine - but once you start diving into heavier spellcasting builds does a polearm no longer make sense - especially with PAM or GWM feats. Does it become too ASI starved?

A Pact of the Sword Hexblade would be CHA SAD, which would make fitting in PAM and GWM easier, since you're only having to focus on raising one stat. Especially on a Variant Human. It just wouldn't come online until after 3rd level, since a non-Sword Pact Hexbalde can't use CHA for attack/damage on a two-handed weapon. But you could start as a Variant Human with PAM, use a Spear until 3rd level then upgrade to a reach polearm, max your CHA, and take GWM.

Or, if you're not married to GWM or reach, you can knock it down to just requiring one feat - Polearm Master - when using a Quarterstaff or Spear. This also allows the use of a shield, for extra defense too. This is generally better on a Paladin, who can get the Dueling fighting style for up to +6 extra damage per turn, who can cast spells using a holy symbol on his shield, and who can Smite to help make up for not having GWM at higher levels. (Plus, the concept of a Spartan Hoplite Paladin with armor, a shield, and a spear is kinda cool.)


EDIT: is there room for booming blade/ GFB in any of these builds?

Yes and no. Not on a traditional Polearm Master/GWM/Extra Attack polearm build. But you can specifically build around BB/GFB if so desired, especially with a Sorcerer who can Quicken or Twin it. Something like a Paladin 2/Sorcerer X could do very well with that strategy.

Less optimal but potentially workable would be an Arcana Cleric with a level or two of Fighter or Paladin. They can't Twin/Quicken BB/GFB, but they eventually get the ability to add their WISMOD to that cantrip's damage, which would help a little.

Either way, it would just necessitate taking the Spell Sniper feat, to allow the use of the SCAG cantrips at 10 feet. But that's offset by not needing to take GWM or PAM.


I keep running into bonus action issues where that extra attack PAM clause seems to conflict with things like hex or so many of the Paladin spells

With a few exceptions (like Divine Favor that I'll discuss in a minute), most of the Paladin's Bonus Action spells are going to be the various Smite spells. These generally aren't worth it, barring a couple notable examples, like the high level Banishing Smite, or Wrathful Smite when used by a Conquest Paladin specifically. Otherwise, you're almost always going to be better off simply using that same spell slot for a standard Divine Smite, doing a bit more damage and leaving your Bonus Action and Concentration for other things. Plus, with Divine Smite you're only spending the spell slot after you know you've hit, so you'll never waste it by missing and losing concentration like can happen with a Smite spell.

And Divine Favor in particular actually plays well with Polearm Master's extra attack. You're getting one less bit of 1d4+STRMOD damage the round it's cast, but are getting 2d4 to 3d4 additional damage each round afterwards, so it more than evens out after a couple rounds. And unlike Hex, you don't have to keep spending subsequent Bonus Actions to move it to new targets, since it's tied to you, not a specific target.

[Bobthewizard]

I'm going to vote for half-elf hexblade. I wouldn't start with a pole-arm, but I'd want one by level 12. Start with 17 Charisma. Then elven accuracy at 4 and GWM at 8. I think hexblade is the only way to use elven accuracy's triple advantage with the +10 damage of GWM. (Edit: Battlesmith artificer can too).

Then at level 12, take PAM and switch to a glaive. This is really a level 12 build. It's fine before that but it's amazing at level 12. By level 12, you have better things to spend your spell slots on than hex.

Now you have 2 attacks (thirsting blade) and a bonus action attack (PAM), all with triple advantage (darkness/devils site or shadow of moil with elven accuracy), and +18 damage each (GWM and Lifedrinker).

Then consider 3 levels of echo knight for Action Surge and Unleash Incarnation for up to 7 attacks in a nova round, adding Eldritch Smite onto important crits, which you should hit at least once since you're rolling 21 times.

If you are playing a lot of the campaign before level 12, then go variant human and take PAM at one using a a spear. Once you get pact of the blade you can use charisma with a heavy pole-arm. You give up elven accuracy but the rest comes online sooner.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hexblade, Pact of the Blade, at level 3 swap an invocation for Improved Pact Weapon, at level 5 take Thirsting Blade and trade another invocation for Eldritch Smite. You can go v.Human to start with PAM, then get GWM at 4th. Use your first attack to smite, which knocks them prone, then your second attack and bonus action attack can be at -5/+10 from GWM with advantage. If you're willing to delay GWM to 9th level, Half-Elf is a great choice especially considering Elven Accuracy. After Warlock 5 an obvious route is Sorcerer or even Bard for more spellcasting, I'd go Shadow Sorcerer.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

I'm of the opinion that paladin isn't a gish. But, that's beside the point

A gish polearm build that I had fun with uses the 1-handed spear/q-staff and PAM. Of course, this depends on your definition of gish. (Definitions for gish are like butts: everyone's got one). Generally I like having a gish whose main combat loop consists of hitting stuff in melee, while also having strong spells/magic to take advantage of specific scenarios.

My suggestion:
Fighter 1/Hexblade X. There's some redundancy in terms of armor proficiency but I like having Dueling. +2 damage is basically 1/5 GWM without any penalty. Plus, having a shield is fun.

Invocations depend on your play style. If you want to spam Darkness get Devil Sight. If you're not using Armor of Agathys, Fiendish Vigor is good. Obviously get Thirsting Blade at 5. The Smite is a trap option until you get more spell slots. Lifedrinker at 12 to boost damage. Improved Pact Weapon is breddy gud too.

Combat loop at character level 6 (fighter 1/warlock 5) allows for:
2x 1d6+4+2+1
1x 1d4+4+2+1

Alternatively you can stay a Strength based build if you want a different patron. Genie is particularly nice for the reliable damage boost, but Celestial gives good healing.

A note about BB/GFB: as mentioned, there is little synergy between these cantrips and polearms. They don't play nice with PAM, and they don't benefit from Reach unless you can take Spell Sniper.

Spell Sniper itself is a bit of a trap option if you want to use it for the Blade cantrips. Unless your table is in strict adherence to The Grid with enemies that like to clump up in a phalanx, or you need that extra cantrip it provides, Mobile is almost always the better option, since it, mechanically, provides much of the same function as Spell Sniper but with a 10 ft boost to movement.

[Foxhound438]

I played for a while a warlock (with fighter 1, of course) that was originally planned to take polearm master at some point, but then magic items happened and all the greatswords were better. In my experience, spells didn't feel like they were taking over my build too badly, though it's hard to say how much having a flametongue affects that. I believe we got up to like level 14 or something before a party wipe had us starting up new characters. Luckily there are spells going quite a ways up that work nicely with melee combatants, like flame shield, hold person/monster, and melee character or not a good old forcecage can be pretty useful. I wanted to eventually true polymorph myself into a pit fiend, but of course didn't get that far.

Since that campaign, a few things have come out that would make that even better. Tenser's transformation, while not obtainable to my warlock of course, would add 2d12 and advantage to all of your polearm mastery attacks, and I think that's a pretty good effect. Maybe a fighter/wizard or fighter/bard is where it's at these days.

[Blood of Gaea]

A Variant Human (Spellsniper) Forge Cleric won't be the most amazing build in the world, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work well enough for play. You could even make use of a pike that rarely sees play otherwise. 16 Str with a +1 Weapon and Booming Blade is serviceable and plays nice with Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians.

And if you want to be a bit more martial, you could always mix in ~3 levels of Battle Master. Probably 1 Fighter/5 Cleric/2 Fighter/X Cleric

[CMCC]

I'm of the opinion that paladin isn't a gish. But, that's beside the point
Yeah that’s why I’m leaning into the 3/5 caster. The half casters are basically Gish-lite to me.



A Variant Human (Spellsniper) Forge Cleric won't be the most amazing build in the world, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work well enough for play. You could even make use of a pike that rarely sees play otherwise. 16 Str with a +1 Weapon and Booming Blade is serviceable and plays nice with Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians.

And if you want to be a bit more martial, you could always mix in ~3 levels of Battle Master. Probably 1 Fighter/5 Cleric/2 Fighter/X Cleric

Forgo PAM? What about GWM?

[CMCC]

Lots of hexblades. I do like me some warlocks.

I guess this whole thing begs the question is a polearm ever better than just going with a maul or great sword?

[Blood of Gaea]

Forgo PAM? What about GWM?
GWM is hard to justify here, especially if you aren't getting to 20 Str the -5 is even worse than normal due to making use of Booming Blade. PAM theoritically still should get you at least one reaction attack a fight, but I don't think I'd make that investment.

Like a normal Cleric, a lot of your DPR comes from Spirit Guardians and/or Spiritual Weapon, you just get to take on a weapon attack and Booming Blade whenever you have a free action.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lots of hexblades. I do like me some warlocks.

I guess this whole thing begs the question is a polearm ever better than just going with a maul or great sword?

The polearm lets you use PAM, which gives you the bonus action attack and the reaction attack, both of which can benefit from GWM. Unless your build has something better to use its bonus action on (Spiritual Weapon, Cunning Action, many Monk abilities, a few Barbarian paths), PAM is a great choice. Which is probably why you're seeing so many Warlock and Paladin builds, both classes lack spammable bonus action abilities.

[CMCC]

GWM is hard to justify here, especially if you aren't getting to 20 Str the -5 is even worse than normal due to making use of Booming Blade. PAM theoritically still should get you at least one reaction attack a fight, but I don't think I'd make that investment.

Like a normal Cleric, a lot of your DPR comes from Spirit Guardians and/or Spiritual Weapon, you just get to take on a weapon attack and Booming Blade whenever you have a free action.

Oddly enough I was messing around with a paladin 2/ hex X build to see how it looks, and a 1 level dip of forge cleric just seems straight better than Paladin 2.

All you need is the 13 wis for multi class prerequisites and you get the heavy armor of the Paladin, you lose a fighting style but get a +1 weapon (which is actually a lot better for a polearm user: magic polearm are rare, and +1 is better than the 0.8 bonus the GW style gives you. Obviously if you’re going spear and dueling it’s only half as good), you only have to dip 1 level into it instead of two which is pretty huge, and the spells are just straight better along with the additional cantrips.

The “big” loss is smites, but eldritch smite makes up for it - even if you lose out on smiting with 1st level spells.

[Frogreaver]

I'm kind of feeling either a hexblade 1 / College of Swords bard X or a hexblade 1 / College of Whispers Bard X with polearm master and a spear would make a pretty good gish.

[Blood of Gaea]

Oddly enough I was messing around with a paladin 2/ hex X build to see how it looks, and a 1 level dip of forge cleric just seems straight better than Paladin 2.

All you need is the 13 wis for multi class prerequisites and you get the heavy armor of the Paladin, you lose a fighting style but get a +1 weapon (which is actually a lot better for a polearm user: magic polearm are rare, and +1 is better than the 0.8 bonus the GW style gives you. Obviously if you’re going spear and dueling it’s only half as good), you only have to dip 1 level into it instead of two which is pretty huge, and the spells are just straight better along with the additional cantrips.

The “big” loss is smites, but eldritch smite makes up for it - even if you lose out on smiting with 1st level spells.
Forge Cleric seems a bit redundant if you're main class is Warlock, you just pick up Improved Pact Weapon instead.

That said, in a general sense I could easily see Forge Cleric being a valuable "meta" multiclass option for a lot of martials that use polearms, because they tend to be really rare to find magic items for in source materials. You get a decent selection of spells as well.

[Spiritchaser]

I can attest to what others have said, Hexblade works well.

In my opinion, variant human is a bit better below level 12, and half elf with elven accuracy is a bit stronger after that, but neither are bad.

Generally run darkness and devil’s sight instead of hex until you get shadow of Moil, and don’t be afraid to stand back and Zorch things with eldritch blast when that works best.

Hex? still take it. Usually you can find a way to make darkness help and protect your party more than it hinders it, but in some fights you just can’t.

[JackalTornMoons]

I'm going to vote for half-elf hexblade. I wouldn't start with a pole-arm, but I'd want one by level 12. Start with 17 Charisma. Then elven accuracy at 4 and GWM at 8. I think hexblade is the only way to use elven accuracy's triple advantage with the +10 damage of GWM.

Battle Smith Artificer can do it too 😀

[Bobthewizard]

Battle Smith Artificer can do it too 😀

That is correct. I always forget about artificers since I haven't played them.

[jojosskul]

If you're willing to use the Tasha's Lineage rules previewed through AL, a High Elf Tempest Cleric taking booming blade as a cantrip I think could work very well. Start with a 16 in both Str and Wis, take PAM as your first ASI at 4 and then up either Str or Wis as you progress from there. It gives you pseudo multiattack through PAM without have to use your spell slots on Spiritual Weapon. Sentinel may also be worth it at some point in the build to keep people from ever being able to leave your Spirit Guardians. And you're a full caster with all of your spell slots and eventually a 20 in your casting stat if you want it.

This also works with War Cleric, but then you overlap features with the War Cleric BA attack, and Tempest Cleric and Booming Blade just work well together thematically.

[Spiritchaser]

Battle Smith Artificer can do it too 😀

They can, but battle smith artificer has a marginally trickier time creating consistent advantage, since faerie fire is a bit more difficult to arrange than darkness or SoM and they have at least as much competition for their bonus action with their steel defender.

Now, if your DM lets your defender wear plate barding you can possibly have them take up position in front of you and have them dodge (no bonus action required) then reach over them with your polearm. It’s awkward but it can work.

Without darkness though, they still have a much easier time hitting you, and they can go around... or use ranged attacks...

[cutlery]

I keep running into bonus action issues where that extra attack PAM clause seems to conflict with things like hex or so many of the Paladin spells or quicken if you go sorcadin route.

I also feel booming blade gets taken off the books which seems like such a waste for a Gish build.

This is a fact of the bonus action from PAM.

On the other hand, another way to look at it is that you always have something to do with your bonus action. You do those other high priority things when you need to (apply hex, etc), and PAM attack when those are done.

War Magic+Booming Blade, on the other hand won't ever work with the PAM bonus action attack. War Magic is a really weird ability and only sort of works as a damage increase if you stop at two attacks (so, EK 7 or 8) and then make it your regular go-to. Even then, if you later take GWM your occasional GWM bonus action attacks will conflict. War Magic + Booming blade does give you a regular use for your bonus action, though, much like PAM does.

So, go into it with the thinking that PAM is a way to always have a bonus action to use rather than the plan that you always take the PAM attack as a bonus action - just like a TWF ranger and hunter's mark.

[CMCC]

Forge Cleric seems a bit redundant if you're main class is Warlock, you just pick up Improved Pact Weapon instead.

That said, in a general sense I could easily see Forge Cleric being a valuable "meta" multiclass option for a lot of martials that use polearms, because they tend to be really rare to find magic items for in source materials. You get a decent selection of spells as well.
Well you don’t have to take improved pact weapon, so it’s not redundant in that sense. And the point isn’t that forge gives you so much more - it gives a lot of the same (heavy armor, +1 weapon) while only costing 1 level.

But losing out on fighting style does actually matter more than I originally thought.

[Xoronis]

I'm surprised I haven't seen Sentinel brought up yet, as most places I read about bring up PAM/Sentinel as the default combo if you're using polearms. The ability to have reach, and use your opportunity attack to stop someone before they reach melee range is huge, not to mention the ability to dump a smite if you're a paladin or warlock.

I know paladins don't seem very gishy, but they're recommended a lot just because of all the extra opportunities you get to dump in a smite with the bonus action attack and with 2 extra ways to trigger an opportunity attack. Warlocks are the same, albeit less so due to their limited spell slots, so you don't smite nearly as often.

If you do want to make a paladin more gishy, you could do the classic paladin/sorcerer multiclass. Paladin 2/Sorcerer X gives you a bunch of spell slots to both use spells for and to smite with, at the cost of being more fragile and pushing back your ASIs to get your feats.

[CMCC]

The more I think about it, the more the question for me comes down to:

War caster + Booming Blade

Or

PAM/Sentinel

Which is superior?

And is there a way to combine them, or is there just too much conflict and lack of synergy that makes that much ASI investment not worth it.

[Xoronis]

TL;DR read EDIT3

Setting smites aside for now, which one is superior depends on circumstance.

Booming Blade is more damage (1d8 vs 1d4 bonus attack from PAM), but requires you to be within 5 feet, negating the reach of the polearm unless you also go for the Spell Sniper feat (or clever uses of Mobile as someone else mentioned). This damage also increases at higher levels, although Extra Attack makes it less useful for a few levels. I misread the levels at which the damage gets higher, this is technically more damage than Extra Attack, provided your opponent moves.

PAM/Sentinel can offer more damage if your new ways of getting a reaction are triggered often, and allow for a bit of battlefield control. This also scales much nicer with Extra Attack.

My opinion is, lower levels will probably get an edge using Booming Blade and War Caster, while in higher levels PAM/Sentinel is stronger.

If you do wind up adding in smites though, PAM/Sentinel becomes stronger period.

To comment on combining them, that becomes 3 or 4 ASI's dedicated to feats (if you want a feat to compensate for the lack of range on Booming Blade). If you roll really good stats, and you're not smiting, I think it could be a fun build to put together, as long as you're ok with slowly building up for it and not really going online until level 12 or 16 (or later if you multiclass).

EDIT: Actually, if you use War Caster mostly for Booming Blade on reactions, combining that with PAM/Sentinel could be really strong, including with smiting. At that point though, you really do want Spell Sniper so you can Booming Blade at 10 feet, so you'll have a few levels where War Caster is mostly inert.

EDIT2: Actually, I take that back, Sentinel's drop to 0 speed isn't optional, so it will completely shut down Booming Blade since the target can't move until the start of your next turn if used as a reaction from War Caster.

EDIT3: Revisiting the damage calculations, it really does depend on if you're smiting or not. No smites, War Caster and Booming Blade is stronger at the cost of reach, and if you add PAM you really want Spell Sniper too. Sentinel is a no go on this build though, for the reasons mentioned in EDIT2.

Without smites, PAM/Sentinel trades some damage for battlefield control, and scales better with GWM since you have more attacks to use it on. With smites, PAM/Sentinel hits harder and scales better at pretty much all levels.

[RogueJK]

I'm kind of feeling either a hexblade 1 / College of Swords bard X or a hexblade 1 / College of Whispers Bard X with polearm master and a spear would make a pretty good gish.

Potentially workable, especially in Tier 1/2. (And I do kinda like the image of a Tier 3 Hexblade/Bard Gish taking Steel Wind Strike as a Magical Secret and then teleporting around the battlefield potentially inflicting 30d10 Force damage among 5 targets.)

Though I suspect going Swords Bard, even with Extra Attack, could start to run out of steam in their overall melee damage output in higher levels. The Blade Flourishes would only be adding an average of ~3/4/5/6 points of damage to one attack per turn, with Dueling Fighting Style potentially adding another 6 points if all 3 attacks hit. In order to be able to compete with things like Smiting Paladins, Twinned/Quickened Booming Blade Sorcadins, Eldritch Smiting Hexblades, Multi-Attacking Sharpshooters/Great Weapon Masters, etc., I still think you'd still need another way to add even more additional damage to each attack. Therefore you'd need to rely on spells like Hex at lower levels and Holy Weapon (through Magical Secrets) at higher levels, but this would tie up your Concentration, and there are a lot of other really useful Bard spells already competing for your Concentration.

Going Whispers Bard would enable BB/GFB + Psychic Blades for a nice little damage dump on their single attack per round (provided that lone attack hits), especially considering Psychic Blades scales up. This would also leave your Concentration free. But that negates one of the benefits of the PAM feat, since you'd be using the Cast A Spell action not the Attack action, so you wouldn't make much use of the bonus attack at higher levels. And I still suspect it would lag behind some other Gish options at higher levels.

You'd also need to spend a feat on Warcaster to be able to BB/GFB on the PAM OA triggered by an enemy closing, to stay relevant with that hit too. But since you're using a Spear, you don't have to spend a feat on Spell Sniper, so that's kind of a wash. And as a melee caster, you'd want the boost to Concentration anyway.


The more I consider it, I think I might want to try a spear-wielding Hexblade Whispers Bard Gish. Seems like it could be fun and flavorful, even if not 100% optimized. Something like a Variant Human starting with PAM. Rely on PAM's 2x attacks + sometimes Hex through Tier 1 and 2, giving me two attempts per turn to inflict Psychic Blades occasionally, then likely switching to just Booming Blade + Psychic Blades at Level 11. Take Steel Wind Strike and/or some non-Bard defensive spell(s) (like Haste, Mirror Image, or Armor of Agathys) as Magical Secrets at Bard 10. +2 CHA at Bard 4. +2 CHA or Warcaster at Bard 8. +2 CHA or Warcaster at Bard 12.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

The more I think about it, the more the question for me comes down to:

War caster + Booming Blade

Or

PAM/Sentinel

Which is superior?

And is there a way to combine them, or is there just too much conflict and lack of synergy that makes that much ASI investment not worth it.

If you're just comparing these two, then definitely War Caster + Booming Blade. Though this combo is anti-synergistic with wielding a polearm in two hands, since your AOO will be at Reach, and you can't cast BB at Reach without another feat.

I honestly think Sentinel is way overhyped most of the time. Spending a feat to counter some enemies trying to bum-rush your back line some of the time isn't worth it, IMO. Warcaster at least has the benefit of giving Advantage on concentration checks, and giving the middle finger to the "shield isn't a free hand" crowd.

At higher levels, BB as an opportunity attack gives much greater damage. But, at higher levels, enemies probably have other ways of attacking your back line that isn't just melee.

[RogueJK]

If you're just comparing these two, then definitely War Caster + Booming Blade. Though this combo is anti-synergistic with wielding a polearm in two hands, since your AOO will be at Reach, and you can't cast BB at Reach without another feat.

Unless you use a Spear or Quarterstaff.

Reach Polearms are best if you're planning to also utilize something like Sentinel to stop them at 10' and prevent them from closing, or Great Weapon Master to boost your melee damage. Spear/Quarterstaff is the better route for specifically the Polearm Master + War Caster + Booming Blade combo. Giving up an average of 1 point of damage per hit from the slightly smaller damage die is worth saving the feat you'd spend on Spell Sniper. You could instead put that ASI towards maxing attack stat (STR or CHA), getting that 1 point of damage back, as well as an extra +1 to attack (and other potential benefits).

[CMCC]

Is the single handed polearm (spear/quarterstaff) actually a good mix of both worlds, or is it a case of trying to be a jack of all trades/master of none, where you just don't do anything really well.

I just feel like if I'm not going for the reach mechanic, going with a longsword and the warcaster/booming blade route is probably just better than spear + PAM.

I haven't checked the math though to see how far off one is from the other. I probably should do that.

[RogueJK]

I just feel like if I'm not going for the reach mechanic, going with a longsword and the warcaster/booming blade route is probably just better than spear + PAM.


Depends on whether you have better things to be doing with your Bonus Actions consistently, and whether you have a way to reliably add additional damage to each Attack+Bonus Attack (+possibly Extra Attack). 2x-3x attacks with several additional damage bonuses can outdamage 1x Booming Blade attack, especially if you're not frequently triggering the rider. Especially in Tier 1 and 2, where the majority of D&D play occurs.

Even with multiple PAM attacks and not utilizing BB for your primary attack routine, you can still effectively utilize Warcaster/BB for extra damage on the single PAM OA when enemies approach you. In my experience with PAM characters, this specific OA triggers quite frequently.

Whereas Longsword can only use Warcaster/BB on the OA when an enemy tries to leave, which doesn't trigger as often.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Is the single handed polearm (spear/quarterstaff) actually a good mix of both worlds, or is it a case of trying to be a jack of all trades/master of none, where you just don't do anything really well.

I just feel like if I'm not going for the reach mechanic, going with a longsword and the warcaster/booming blade route is probably just better than spear + PAM.

I haven't checked the math though to see how far off one is from the other. I probably should do that.

It depends if you really want to use Booming Blade.

Mechanically, Booming Blade's advantages are highly level/class dependent. A blade Warlock, with PAM (and optionally GWM) who specs into Thirsting Blade/Lifedrinker will likely beat out one who specs Booming Blade in terms of consistent/total damage until maybe level 17. For other gish builds, like those using Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, or other kinds of Warlocks, BB is a much better option, since there isn't the opportunity cost of Extra Attacks or PAM. IMO, if you're planning on spending most of your play time in levels 1 to 10, spear + PAM is the clear option - use the extra/bonus action attack and ignore using BB/GFB unless the situation really calls for it.

I like single handed polearms because I like their synergy with Dueling, and the tighter spread of damage that provides, plus the boost in AC a shield can bring. Reach can be situational, as it's likely that the enemy will get to you sooner or later. I think 1-handed gives you very slightly less damage (if you take Dueling) and range, but the bonus of a shield makes up for it in terms of stickiness in battle.

Watch out when you imply that the single handed polearm is weak. I think there have been quite a few arguments on this forum in the past complaining about its synergy with Dueling. :smallbiggrin:

[Sception]

I'd recommend an Oath Breaker Sorcadin for this, assuming your DM allows it. Vuman with polearm master at level, 7 levels of oath breaker, then shadow or divine soul sorcerer for the rest. In theory would like a hex dip, which would then maybe encourage half elf instead of human for elven accuracy. But three levels of warlock are needed to use hex warrior on a proper polearm, and while that could make for a fun and functional build, that's going to cut into your overall spell progression more than this thread seems to be looking for.

Decent number of attacks thanks to extra attack and polearm master, oath breaker aura for a static damage boost to all of those attacks, divine smite when needed or on a lucky crit, eventually haste from sorcerer levels. Or spirit guardians, or darkness for advantage if going shadow sorcerer. Spell slots of a 16th level caster and 7th level spells known, so reasonably casty while also being solidly punchy. The casting is pretty back-loaded though, admittedly. You won't be casting actual 3rd level spells until level 12, which is... not ideal.

But still, a solid overal build with well above half casting that makes prominent use of a halberd or glaive and wouldn't just be the same but better with a a shield or greatsword. Which is admittedly a big issue here. You can get stronger, castier gishes, but they're mostly going to be running on scag cantrips, which don't play nice with polearm master, and without polearm master there's not a lot of mechanical reason to go with a halberd or glaive in the first place.


As for conquest... it can be fun to poke at locked down enemies from 10 feet away, but if they're that securely locked down then you might as well be flailing at them with a whip, which lets you keep a shield up. Conquest is a tankier build in general, one that relies heavily on concentration spells, so it values that extra AC a lot.

[RogueJK]

I'd recommend an Oath Breaker Sorcadin for this, assuming your DM allows it. Vuman with polearm master at level, 7 levels of oath breaker, then shadow or divine soul sorcerer for the rest.

Decent number of attacks thanks to extra attack and polearm master, oath breaker aura for a static damage boost to all of those attacks, divine smite when needed or on a lucky crit, eventually haste from sorcerer levels. Or spirit guardians, or darkness for advantage if going shadow sorcerer.

I recently played a Variant Human Polearm Master Vengeance Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 6. It was very effective from Level 1-12. I initially planned to go straight Paladin, but decided to duck out at 6 in favor of Sorcerer for more spells/smites instead, and I don't regret that at all, since I gained greater versatility, ranged ability, defense spells, and smite damage.

A Vengeance Paladin or Sorcadin with Polearm Master is especially good when fighting single large enemies. Vow of Emnity and Hunter's Mark (usually used separately, but sometimes together), really lets you make the most of your 3x melee attacks per round against that target, and you can let loose with large Smites thanks to your doubled crit chance from Vow of Emnity's Advantage. You're effectively getting 6x chances for a Critical Smite each round against that enemy, and if you're a Sorcadin you have even higher level spell slots with which to maximize this Critical Smite's damage.

Plus you're frequently getting a 4th attack (and additional chance to Smite) in many rounds, thanks to PAM's OA when an enemy closes with you.

[Evaar]

The more I think about it, the more the question for me comes down to:

War caster + Booming Blade

Or

PAM/Sentinel

Which is superior?

And is there a way to combine them, or is there just too much conflict and lack of synergy that makes that much ASI investment not worth it.

To my mind, the reason Polearms combo well with Hexblades are because polearms offer more attacks via PAM.

Additional attacks are worth more on a Hexblade than they are on most other classes. This is because of Hexblade's Curse, Lifedrinker, and Hex/Elemental Weapon. So if you're doing something like Booming Blade instead of attacking, you're not taking advantage of all the extra damage you could be doing with more attacks.

First, I would say Elemental Weapon is a better pick here than Hex. It only works on non-magical weapons, but that includes your pact weapon because it is not considered magical except with regard to damage resistances. If you get a really good magical polearm, it will probably raise the value of Hex. However, the DMG doesn't have any magical polearms in it and your DM might not plan to create one for you. See the thread on that.

So Elemental Weapon lasts an hour, meaning you cast it as you're starting the dungeon crawl and it will be up the whole time. It scales up, so you'll eventually have a permanent +2 attack and +2d4 damage. It doesn't take a bonus action to apply, it just works. And if you're using PAM, that's 3 attacks that are getting that extra 2d4.

Lifedrinker allows you to add your Charisma modifier to damage a second time. So you double dip on your static bonuses compared to most other classes. Compare to the Dueling fighting style adding a flat +2. Lifedrinker only works on your pact weapon, so it doesn't play nice with dual wielding (what does?), but if a polearm is your pact weapon then the haft attack is still coming from your pact weapon.

Then add Hexblade's Curse on there as well, adding your proficiency modifier in damage to each hit.

So at level 12, if you land all 3 attacks but don't crit, you're doing 2d10+6d4+1d4+15+15+12. Or if you aren't using Hexblade's Curse on that target, drop that last +12.

You do that and you back off, since you're at reach and you safely can. And if them come at you, you hit them again for another 1d10+2d4+5+5.

[Frogreaver]

Potentially workable, especially in Tier 1/2. (And I do kinda like the image of a Tier 3 Hexblade/Bard Gish taking Steel Wind Strike as a Magical Secret and then teleporting around the battlefield potentially inflicting 30d10 Force damage among 5 targets.)

Though I suspect going Swords Bard, even with Extra Attack, could start to run out of steam in their overall melee damage output in higher levels. The Blade Flourishes would only be adding an average of ~3/4/5/6 points of damage to one attack per turn, with Dueling Fighting Style potentially adding another 6 points if all 3 attacks hit. In order to be able to compete with things like Smiting Paladins, Twinned/Quickened Booming Blade Sorcadins, Eldritch Smiting Hexblades, Multi-Attacking Sharpshooters/Great Weapon Masters, etc., I still think you'd still need another way to add even more additional damage to each attack. Therefore you'd need to rely on spells like Hex at lower levels and Holy Weapon (through Magical Secrets) at higher levels, but this would tie up your Concentration, and there are a lot of other really useful Bard spells already competing for your Concentration.

Going Whispers Bard would enable BB/GFB + Psychic Blades for a nice little damage dump on their single attack per round (provided that lone attack hits), especially considering Psychic Blades scales up. This would also leave your Concentration free. But that negates one of the benefits of the PAM feat, since you'd be using the Cast A Spell action not the Attack action, so you wouldn't make much use of the bonus attack at higher levels. And I still suspect it would lag behind some other Gish options at higher levels.

You'd also need to spend a feat on Warcaster to be able to BB/GFB on the PAM OA triggered by an enemy closing, to stay relevant with that hit too. But since you're using a Spear, you don't have to spend a feat on Spell Sniper, so that's kind of a wash. And as a melee caster, you'd want the boost to Concentration anyway.


The more I consider it, I think I might want to try a spear-wielding Hexblade Whispers Bard Gish. Seems like it could be fun and flavorful, even if not 100% optimized. Something like a Variant Human starting with PAM. Rely on PAM's 2x attacks + sometimes Hex through Tier 1 and 2, giving me two attempts per turn to inflict Psychic Blades occasionally, then likely switching to just Booming Blade + Psychic Blades at Level 11. Take Steel Wind Strike and/or some non-Bard defensive spell(s) (like Haste, Mirror Image, or Armor of Agathys) as Magical Secrets at Bard 10. +2 CHA at Bard 4. +2 CHA or Warcaster at Bard 8. +2 CHA or Warcaster at Bard 12.

I like whispers too.

My personal preference is swords. The +AC is very nice. Synergizes well with Hexblade curse and shield spell.

Nothing wrong with whispers though. Late game it’s damage will scale a bit higher. I personally would forgo PAM on the whispers setup. Go straight for warcaster.

[CMCC]

I recently played a Variant Human Polearm Master Vengeance Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer X. It was very effective from Level 1-12.

Did you stop playing at level 12 or did it stop being as effective at that point. I'm guessing the former.

[RogueJK]

Did you stop playing at level 12 or did it stop being as effective at that point. I'm guessing the former.

I guess I worded that poorly. Campaign was paused/abandoned at Level 12 due to COVID. Had it continued, I would have kept going with Sorcerer.

[cutlery]

To my mind, the reason Polearms combo well with Hexblades are because polearms offer more attacks via PAM.


This - it is about getting lifedrinker (and possibly GWM) on a third attack.

If you have 7 levels in EK you're playing a different game, and may or may not plan on GWM.

For one, War Magic+Booming Blade works better with shadow blade (and an Ek7/wiz13 has mondo slots for this). You can also swap to Green Flame Blade in multi target situations with no real single target damage loss.

Both, though, are situational and require some forethought.

Lifedrinker + PAM + GWM really need a way to gain advantage to come ahead with ACs above 15-16. The warlock can do this, but monoclassed they spend a whole round casting Moil (unless 17+, but lets forget that for now).

War Magic + BB/GFB is always available. If using Shadow Blade, GWM is off the table but the per-round damage increase via advantage is strong if in dim light - very strong.

In both cases, a level 20 EK with a simple level 3 Shadow Blade will outdamage them; that's just the nature of the beast, though. Even before 17; a pure EK with 3 attacks and advantage will tend to out damage a War Magic + BB multiclass with an upcast Shadow Blade.

Extra Attack really does a lot of lifting there. And, the nice thing about a pure EK is, if they want, they can build for strength and do pretty comparable damage without shadow blade. If they ever find a flametongue weapon they will blow the doors off other options with extra attacks.

A pure EK can of course use PAM also; so the boost from lifedrinker really isn't a clear lead unless the warlock can have advantage all the time, but that costs a round. Meanwhile, the fighter gets a free action once per short rest...


Go with PAM+Lifedrinker or War Magic+BB/GFB for flavor or because you want the other things those builds can offer. They aren't hands down the best way to do damage; after level 11 an EK with Shadow Blade tends to best them (and the EK can use WM+BB while they wait for Shadow Blade III to show up at level 13 - where it blows the doors off of WM+BB even using shadow blade, and even with advantage.) It's been a bit since I compared Lifedrinker/PAM to Extra Attack (2) + PAM w/ shadow blade, but the warlock wasn't a clear winner, and they were a clear loser in any round they couldn't use the PAM bonus attack - and, there are ways for the EK to get Hunter's Mark or Hex.

Now, the EK is lacking in a lot of the other sorts of things people want in a gishy character, and building something else to get those things ain't wrong.

[Melil12]

A good Arcane cleric build is a great gish

[Benny89]

Imo best Polearm Gish is Hexblade. Either Variant Human if playing to level 12 or Half-Elf if playing 12+ levels.

PAM, GWM, 20 CHA, War Caster or Elven Accuracy, GWM, PAM, War Caster, 20 CHA.

It's really easy to use - you use Devil's Sight + Darkness Combo till you get Shadow of Moil and you attack with advantage while being attacked with disadvantage and being immune to all spells that requires seeing a target.



Another one is Vengeance Paladin PAM GWM Variant Human 20 STR riding on Pegasus or Conquest Paladin using Polearm 10 reach to combo with Fear Aura. Though fear immunities become very very often in late levels sadly.

[CMCC]

Imo best Polearm Gish is Hexblade. Either Variant Human if playing to level 12 or Half-Elf if playing 12+ levels.

PAM, GWM, 20 CHA, War Caster or Elven Accuracy, GWM, PAM, War Caster, 20 CHA.

It's really easy to use - you use Devil's Sight + Darkness Combo till you get Shadow of Moil and you attack with advantage while being attacked with disadvantage and being immune to all spells that requires seeing a target.



Another one is Vengeance Paladin PAM GWM Variant Human 20 STR riding on Pegasus or Conquest Paladin using Polearm 10 reach to combo with Fear Aura. Though fear immunities become very very often in late levels sadly.

Any dips or just straight through?

[Benny89]

Any dips or just straight through?

For Hexblade is just mono-class. The Hexblade chasis is perfect for GWM builds due to easy advantage generation. Plus they always have very good range attack (up to 4x 1d10 + CHA force damage 120 feet range) that is almost never resisted so they are never in position (unlike Paladins) where they don't have answer for range or flying enemies.

Vengeance Paladin also mono-class. You could in theory combine both in Padlock, like 6 Vengeance/14 Hexblade etc. but it takes long to go fully online (CHA to 2-handed weapons require 3rd level of Hexblade) and Paladin stupid 13 STR requirement to multiclass (cause you can't be Dex Paladin...) also makes it not really optimal for GWM build.

[Nhorianscum]

The more I think about it, the more the question for me comes down to:

War caster + Booming Blade

Or

PAM/Sentinel

Which is superior?

And is there a way to combine them, or is there just too much conflict and lack of synergy that makes that much ASI investment not worth it.

Warcaster+BB is a happy accident where two useful things happen to sometimes deal an extra chip of damage.

PAM+Sent is a mele thing that is feat heavy and no caster has time for that.

To answer the OP. Glaive+PAM+GWF is the mele hexblades bread and butter.

[freakybeak]

I keep running into bonus action issues where that extra attack PAM clause seems to conflict with things like hex or so many of the Paladin spells or quicken if you go sorcadin route.

I also feel booming blade gets taken off the books which seems like such a waste for a Gish build.

It sort of depends how you play. I am running a pure hexblade that has nearly zero issues with bonus action economy. If the fight looks tough, I will almost always use my turn to cast darkness on myself and put my hexblades curse on the big tough guy whilst running in to a spot that seems strategically useful. If the fight looks easy, I'll either dice my way through it using no spells (saving slots in case something comes up) or I'll cast a hex with the hopes of keeping it up for the next fight also (using PAM to avoid getting hit via reach abuse).

Booming blade is fantastic for a warcaster build but the interaction with reach weapons is a little unsatisfying because of the 5ft range.

Hexblade is fantastic with PAM and, whilst definitely worse overall than a paladin (paladins are just crazy good), they are probably the better class for all out burst damage.

[Sception]

By far the best user of proper polearms is the echo knight fighter subclass with a PAM/Sentinel build abusing your shadow clone for high class positioning shenanigans. Of course, that's not a gish at all, though with all of their supernatural abilities they can kind of feel like one.

[CMCC]

By far the best user of proper polearms is the echo knight fighter subclass with a PAM/Sentinel build abusing your shadow clone for high class positioning shenanigans. Of course, that's not a gish at all, though with all of their supernatural abilities they can kind of feel like one.

Yeah I’ve toyed with the idea of the echo/ barb multiclass with ritual caster. Maybe an echo knight/ wizard multiclass could work and be awesome. Idk - I haven’t seen a good build for it yet.

[RogueJK]

Off the top of my head, if you just wanted some additional arcane utility, defense, and flavor for your Echo Knight, you could dip War Wizard 2 for STR-based medium/heavy armor or Bladesinger 2 for DEX-based light armor. It would only need a 14ish INT to work. Has all 1st level Rituals, a few Shield/Absorb Elements spells per day, and some utility cantrips, plus added defense.

But the War Wizard's Arcane Deflection could compete for your Reaction with OAs, Shield/AA, and Shadow Martyr.

And Bladesong could compete with the Bonus Actions required by Echo Knight abilities.


Perhaps something like a Variant Human with PAM starting Fighter 1, then War Wizard 2, then Echo Knight X, picking up +2 STR (Fighter 4), Sentinel (F6), Great Weapon Master (F8), +2 STR (F12), and +2 CON (F14).