Conquest Paladin viability?

[Mwhawk2]

All,

I am working on a draft character concept for an upcoming Rime of the Frost Maiden campaign. I am leaning towards a paladin, but am curious if an Oath of Conquest paladin might be viable. I am planning to make him either a White Dragonborn or a Triton (since I'd prefer to have some sort of cold resistance), with a Lawful Neutral alignment. Off the cuff, I envision him selecting this path after a chaotic event in his past, alters (or refines?) his perspective on right and wrong. He might be a soldier or peacekeeper of some sort who experiences something severely traumatic, that causes him to believe the world needs "fixing". I definitely plan to make him a bit unhinged, but I don't want him to be evil. Without dropping any spoilers, does anyone have any experience with the Conquest paladin and might you have any advice on how to make a "good" one work?

Thank you!

[CMCC]

All,

I am working on a draft character concept for an upcoming Rime of the Frost Maiden campaign. I am leaning towards a paladin, but am curious if an Oath of Conquest paladin might be viable. I am planning to make him either a White Dragonborn or a Triton (since I'd prefer to have some sort of cold resistance), with a Lawful Neutral alignment. Off the cuff, I envision him selecting this path after a chaotic event in his past, alters (or refines?) his perspective on right and wrong. He might be a soldier or peacekeeper of some sort who experiences something severely traumatic, that causes him to believe the world needs "fixing". I definitely plan to make him a bit unhinged, but I don't want him to be evil. Without dropping any spoilers, does anyone have any experience with the Conquest paladin and might you have any advice on how to make a "good" one work?

Thank you!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?543427-The-Wall-of-Fear-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Oath-of-Conquest

[RogueJK]

does anyone have any experience with the Conquest paladin and might you have any advice on how to make a "good" one work?

The above guide does a great job of breaking down the mechanical aspect. As for the flavor aspect, I have a hard time envisioning a Conquest Paladin as any sort of Good. But that doesn't mean they necessarily have to be Evil.

Lawful Neutral is about as "good" as you'd likely get with a Conquest Paladin. Rigid, harsh, and unsentimental, but not malicious. Not afraid to get their hands dirty for the right end result. "It's for their own good", "spare the rod and spoil the child", "the ends justify the means (to a point)", etc.

Vengeance Paladin is a similar Oath that could potentially be closer to Good, and that might fit with your envisioned backstory too.

[bendking]

It's extremely viable.
A. It's a Paladin.
B. It's one of the best sub-classes that gives an already amazing chassis a good measure of control.

[Crucius]

I can't speak for that specific module, but I play a conquest paladin in Storm King's Thunder and it is AMAZING. In a campaign with not an overabundance of frightened immunities you will have a lot of fun!

I wrote him as lawful good in a sense that he wants to root out evil before it can emerge and be a huge threat. To that end he is looking for ways to 'build' an oracle in his hometown/country to predict where evil will take root, and destroy it while it's still small. Think Minority Report, but with a fanatical and righteous protagonist.

So as you can see a good conquest paladin is a very plausible option, as all the tenets really want you is to be headstrong and determined in your goals. If that goal is helping others it will work out. Being brash doesn't make you evil (might make you an *sshole, but such is life).

[patchyman]

I will answer this from the flavour perspective: speak with your DM. The DM can already authorize changes to the tenets if they make sense, and the Oath of Conquest is mechanically interesting even with completely different flavor.

I ran my Oath of Conquest paladin as a Good follower of the God of Death. The subclass features revolving around inspiring fear were flavoured as forcing an enemy to confront their mortality. This also made for very interesting and flavourful tenets dealing with ensuring the bodies of the dead were respected (even those of enemies), and destroying undead to return them to their rest.

[CheddarChampion]

I played as a Conquest Paladin (well a multiclass Zealot/Conquest/Lore Bard) and I can confirm it works well.

I never came up with exact wording or anything but his oath was to conquer evil. The method was to be unrelenting, cruel, and show no mercy to wicked things - but only to wicked things that were unrepentant when he got there (saying sorry during a beatdown didn't count). He made sure to let everyone know what would happen if they showed up on his radar. That way, he thought, people would be heavily discouraged from doing evil.

I figure he was a LG person overall. LG goals, LG deeds, LN/LE methods.

[Scarytincan]

I've actually had a similar thought that I've been theory crafting, a white dragonborn conquest pali who seeks out the biggest nastiest monsters to conquer in glorious combat or die trying

[Benny89]

It's good but overrated a little. Fear immunities are not that rare. And they are very often in higher levels. Whats more - most "bosses" (legendary enemies) have immunity always. So it's great when it works and completely useless when it doesn't.

I would pick more "sure" option for Paladin like Ancient, Veng or Devo.

[Witty Username]

It seems like you have a sound idea. I think conquest works fine, as does vengeance (I like conquest more personally, using fear and intimidation for justice appeals to my love of Batman). The water theme of Triton is appealing in an icy setting for me.

[MrStabby]

It's good but overrated a little. Fear immunities are not that rare. And they are very often in higher levels. Whats more - most "bosses" (legendary enemies) have immunity always. So it's great when it works and completely useless when it doesn't.

I would pick more "sure" option for Paladin like Ancient, Veng or Devo.

I don't think it is that overrated, mainly because the fear abilities are such a natrual compliment to the paladin abilities.

So if you have a "boss" that is immune to fear, you can still drive off their henchmen. If they have no henchmen... then you are a paladin facing down a single target enemy, and I really wouldn't want to be that enemy. Its exactly the thing a Paladin likes. Add in that quite a lot of the immune to fear stuff is undead or fiendish and the cost of giving up on casting fear or using your channel divinity to instead just do them an epic load of d8 radiant damage isn't that much of a cost. And whilst there are a number of creatures immune to fear, there are generally fewer of them in the MM than people think; it used to be more common.

You get options that shine when the paladin is at its weakest, rather than some redundant really strong options competing against each other when the paladin is strong. And in 5th edition wiht bounded accuracy, multiple lower level threats are at least as dangerous as fewer higher level threats. You are more likely to shine when you need to.

[patchyman]

So if you have a "boss" that is immune to fear, you can still drive off their henchmen. If they have no henchmen... then you are a paladin facing down a single target enemy, and I really wouldn't want to be that enemy. Its exactly the thing a Paladin likes. Add in that quite a lot of the immune to fear stuff is undead or fiendish and the cost of giving up on casting fear or using your channel divinity to instead just do them an epic load of d8 radiant damage isn't that much of a cost. And whilst there are a number of creatures immune to fear, there are generally fewer of them in the MM than people think; it used to be more common.

You get options that shine when the paladin is at its weakest, rather than some redundant really strong options competing against each other when the paladin is strong. And in 5th edition wiht bounded accuracy, multiple lower level threats are at least as dangerous as fewer higher level threats. You are more likely to shine when you need to.

In addition, you second Channel Divinity is still a +10 to hit on an attack after you have seen the role. Very useful against enemies immune to your fear.

[Hellpyre]

To echo the other posters - Conquest is a strong oath, and will fit decently well against some of the later enemies is Rime.

But if you are going to be playing through the whole book, be aware that you are going to have the 7th level aura for less (possibly much less) than half the campaign. If you're okay with that, since Paladin is a great chassis even without subclass features taken into account, then go for it. If you want more out of your subclass from 3-6, Vengence may feel better during those levels.

[VonKaiserstein]

I think for your concept, a Dragonborn is the easiest to portray as good. Conquest isn't pleasant in and of itself, but it can serve good ends. So you could be bad and terrifying for the greater good.

The Dragonborn is also very easy to justify the racism necessary to turn this from a Crusader, into a Conquistador. You are out to crush opposition, subjugate the inferior, subdragonborn natives of this land so that your kingdom (I'm assuming a Dragon led group of Dragonborn) can be triumphant. Now you're not out to kill them all, just show them their place so that they can benefit your society- that's what keeps you from tipping over into evil exterminator territory. You just want them to live better lives, which they can't do until they are slave/citizens/tributaries of your empire. It is your manifest destiny to rule this land, and spread the light of civilization into their darkest corners- no matter how forcefully you have to civilize these lazy savages.

Do remember though, that it will mean you have to devalue everything about their culture and treat all NPCs that are not from your own culture as subhuman. You will be good, but not many are going to see you that way until the Stockholm kicks in.

[AttilatheYeon]

It's good but overrated a little. Fear immunities are not that rare. And they are very often in higher levels. Whats more - most "bosses" (legendary enemies) have immunity always. So it's great when it works and completely useless when it doesn't.

I would pick more "sure" option for Paladin like Ancient, Veng or Devo.

I wouldn't say useless. They're still pallies with everything that comes with.

[zinycor]

It's good but overrated a little. Fear immunities are not that rare. And they are very often in higher levels. Whats more - most "bosses" (legendary enemies) have immunity always. So it's great when it works and completely useless when it doesn't.


Useless is quite the exaggeration really, even against a fear immune enemy they have a great channel divinity and amazing spell selection for a paladin.

[Mwhawk2]

Thanks all! If I opt to go with a LN, Conquest Paladin, any suggestions on a deity for him to follow? I know it’s not required, but I love the “holy warrior” aspect of the Paladin concept and want to incorporate that into his backstory. I am leaning towards making him (in a similar vein to that of General Zodd from the Superman, Man of steel movie plot line) a Triton soldier/general from a zealous military faction of followers who rose up to try and challenge a ruler or government they believed were tyrannical or corrupt. However upon their defeat, he and his follower were banished from his homeland and sold into slavery aboard a pirate ship. (Small Spoiler alert coming- since this character will be for a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign, this aspect of his backstory dovetails into his “secret”). I’m even thinking of further flavoring his story with a bit of intrigue stolen from The Count of Monte Cristo, but instead of revenge he decides returning home, removing those who banished him from and seizing rule for himself as the only viable means of restoring “peace and order” to his home. Keeping that in mind, any suggestions on a deity that might work well for my backstory? I’m open to all pantheons (am even considering the Red Knight, or Tyr). Thoughts?

[Gtdead]

Thanks all! If I opt to go with a LN, Conquest Paladin, any suggestions on a deity for him to follow? I know it’s not required, but I love the “holy warrior” aspect of the Paladin concept and want to incorporate that into his backstory. I am leaning towards making him (in a similar vein to that of General Zodd from the Superman, Man of steel movie plot line) a Triton soldier/general from a zealous military faction of followers who rose up to try and challenge a ruler or government they believed were tyrannical or corrupt. However upon their defeat, he and his follower were banished from his homeland and sold into slavery aboard a pirate ship. (Small Spoiler alert coming- since this character will be for a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign, this aspect of his backstory dovetails into his “secret”). I’m even thinking of further flavoring his story with a bit of intrigue stolen from The Count of Monte Cristo, but instead of revenge he decides returning home, removing those who banished him from and seizing rule for himself as the only viable means of restoring “peace and order” to his home. Keeping that in mind, any suggestions on a deity that might work well for my backstory? I’m open to all pantheons (am even considering the Red Knight, or Tyr). Thoughts?

I would go with the Red Knight. I would also like to say that the chinese military leaders of old are a good source of inspiration for how you can take the Conquest tenets and apply them without feeling like a tyrant. You can check stuff like Sun Tzu - The Art of War.

[RogueJK]

A Conquest Paladin's Deity will depend on whether he thinks he's conquering for the "right reasons" (e.g. a crusade to defeat a great evil), for the "wrong reasons" (tyranny or oppression), for a neutral reason (a mercenary, to impose stability, or just for love of battle), or even for retribution.

Hoar (LN) is worth considering, representing vengeance and poetic justice, which could fit with your "Count of Monte Cristo/conquering those who wronged him" theme.

Otherwise, Tyr (LG) is more for the "good" aspect of war and conquest, while Bane (LE) is more for the "evil" aspect of war and conquest. Red Knight (LN) is more for the in-between morally ambiguous tactics/strategy aspect of battle. Tempus (N) represents battle for battle's sake, unconcerned with morality.

[Mwhawk2]

So which race works best for the Conquest Paladin? I am considering a half-drow, a Dragonborn or a Triton. Since this will be for the Frostmaiden campaign I like the Triton’s cold resistance but the other options seem strong too. Any opinions on whether (or if) one option is superior to the others?

[CheddarChampion]

Overall: Dragonborn if you'll get Dragon Fear. Drow's sunlight sensitivity can be pretty bad. Triton doesn't grant anything specific for Conquest.

If you're using Tasha's alternative racial ability scores and you're more interested in control than offense, Dragonborn for 16/10/13/8/10/17, 16/8/13/10/10/17, or 16/10/11/10/10/17 is good. Pick up Dragon Fear at level 4 to boost your Charisma to 18 and give you another concentration-free fear effect. Afterwards get Resilient (Constitution) for a big boost to concentration saves. Then Cha+2, Sentinel, and something else. Again, this works best for dedicated defensive/tank builds.

The "Vanilla" option is to get 16/10/13/10/10/16, Resilient (Constitution), and stat boosts. 16/10/14/8/10/16 or 16/8/14/10/10/16 with regular old boosts to Strength/Charisma works too. Playing as a Triton would work better in this instance - they just have more going for them overall.

If your group uses old UA, variant human (or Tasha's custom lineage) for "Menacing" works great. Intimidation (with expertise) vs Insight instead of one of your attacks can be very worth it, especially if you can attack a foe at 10' or more and your foe cannot attack you in return. This also works for the Dragonborn build above: get Menacing instead of Dragon Fear. (I suppose you could start with 18 charisma with this method: 15 base, +2 from custom lineage, +1 from the feat... don't get your hopes up for a DM to allow this.)

[Unoriginal]

So which race works best for the Conquest Paladin? I am considering a half-drow, a Dragonborn or a Triton. Since this will be for the Frostmaiden campaign I like the Triton’s cold resistance but the other options seem strong too. Any opinions on whether (or if) one option is superior to the others?

The Leonin is pretty damn great for a Conquest Paladin, having a fear-inducing CON-based AoE since level 1 and other perks nice for an overlord.

[Hellpyre]

Overall: Dragonborn if you'll get Dragon Fear. Drow's sunlight sensitivity can be pretty bad. Triton doesn't grant anything specific for Conquest.


The dragonborn racial feat interacts very poorly with the Conquest Paladin's psychic damage within their aura. Unoriginal brings up Leonin, which have a shorter duration fear but one which functions better within the aura (where you want feared enemies to be, generally), although the stat increases not bumping CHA hurts a bit. Trition doesn't bring anything specific, but they have a nice statline and fair abilities for Paladins of any stripe.

[RogueJK]

Overall: Dragonborn if you'll get Dragon Fear.

Dragon Fear is kinda bad. Unlike the other various Fear effects, the targets get a new saving throw every time they take damage. So a new saving throw every time you hit them with an attack (including multiple saving throws if you get more than 1 attack per turn), plus every time a party member hits them with an attack. Then, starting at Level 7, they're also going to be automatically taking damage every round that they're within 10 feet of you, meaning they'll be getting one more shot at the save every round. As a result of these frequent saving throw attempts, it typically won't stick for very long.

Altogether a much poorer choice than the Conquest Paladin's other sources of fear, including Wrathful Smite, Fear, or Conquering Presence, all of which only allow a max of 1 chance to save per round. And some of those even require other things before a save can be attempted, like being out of line of sight of you with Fear, or spending their Action to attempt to shake it off with Wrathful Smite.

So there are much better feat options than Dragon Fear, even for a Dragonborn, and you shouldn't let this lock you into Dragonborn either.

(If you really want a fourth source of a fear effect, even though this isn't really needed, you could take Shadow Touched for the Cause Fear spell 1/day for free and castable with slots from there, plus +1 CHA and Invisibility to boot.)

[CheddarChampion]

Oh dang, I thought dragon fear was better than that. Looks like I misremembered.
Yeah nevermind about that suggestion.