Can Earth Elementals bring along willing passengers? [Archive]

Eldonauran

2020-10-21, 06:48 PM

I am of two minds on this.

1) The Earth Elemental is made up of specific rocks and earth that are able to glide through earth and reform at its end destination. If this is correct, yes. If the elemental is able to push aside the existing material to allow its own passage, it should be able to bring along a passenger.

2) The Earth Elemental is comprised of whatever earth/rock that is available around it (or whatever it formed initially from) and it is only its elemental spirit that travels through the ground, reforming its body as it leaves the earth now made up of whatever that material was. If this is correct, no. It is not actually physically moving through anything.

SangoProduction

2020-10-21, 07:19 PM

I think allowing the earth elemental to walk up to the party underground, grab the squishiest back liner, drag them into the earth then leave them entombed in solid rock sets a bad precedent.
It overvalues burrow speeds and encourages unfun and boring tactics.

I did specifically say willing, but I am interested in your boring tactics for counting unwilling earthglide.

KillianHawkeye

2020-10-21, 08:15 PM

The ability to pass through solid rock seems more like something that earth elementals do because that's just what they are rather than something they can share with other beings. It's not the same as helping someone swim because most creatures can pass through water on their own, but the same isn't true of stone.

rel

2020-10-21, 09:48 PM

I did specifically say willing, but I am interested in your boring tactics for counting unwilling earthglide.

the boring tactic IS the earthglide. the PC is encouraged to get something with burrow then sit in a broom closet while said burrowbot goes around grappling enemies and dragging them into the earth.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-22, 12:20 AM

It's not exactly conclusive but the existence of the Stone Flyer (Underdark) and its special ability to share its Earth Glide ability with a rider implies that it's not normally possible.

newguydude1

2020-10-22, 12:45 AM

earth elementals glide through stone like a ghost glides through walls. no trace, no difference in composition. so anyone who says the elemental loses its composition and gains a new composition upon exiting the wall is wrong.

earth glide is an ex ability so its nonmagical.

earth glide gives earth elementals a burrow speed and nothing else. no restrictions. so he can definitely grapple creatures into stone. whatever lets him ghost through the ground lets him drown someone like a fish would drown a human in water if the fish had arms.

i agree with sleepyphoenixx. stone flyer is proof earth elemental as a mount cant glide his rider through stone. the rider will have to be dismount and then grappled through the earth.

Segev

2020-10-22, 01:41 AM

newguydude1

2020-10-22, 02:37 AM

While an argument can be made for dragging folks into the ground, I don’t think it can be correctly said that whatever let’s an earth elemental glide through the ground necessarily lets them drag people into it. Depending on the mechanism, people thus dragged might just be like a ghost trying to pull a coin through a wall: the coin and wall remain solid to each other.

from a ruled as written point of view it can.

You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check.

you can move and bring everyone with you. mount rules however dont say anything. doesnt say you can move and bring your rider with you. just nothing. if your mount moves, you can do x, or this happens, or whatever. never says you can bring your rider through anything.

incorporeals also cannot drag a creature because they cant grapple.

gogogome

2020-10-22, 03:06 AM

This is an interesting scenario!

Earth Glide directly says its a burrow. Earth Elementals that are using Earth Glide are burrowing. So I'd rule it differently as a ghost walking through a wall. I'd treat it like a fish swimming through water. In other words, the Earth Elemental is not overlapping with the ground. Its displacing the ground around him just like how a fish doesn't overlap with water but instead pushes the water around it. So I think it makes sense that the Earth Elemental can displace the ground around him so that it surrounds a creature he is dragging into the ground.

The only way I can see this working is if the elemental somehow ate you.

AKA earth elemental power armor.

I agree with this. Grapped or swallowed. Riding on the back of a saddle won't work.

Zombimode

2020-10-22, 05:13 AM

Earth Glide directly says its a burrow. Earth Elementals that are using Earth Glide are burrowing. So I'd rule it differently as a ghost walking through a wall. I'd treat it like a fish swimming through water. In other words, the Earth Elemental is not overlapping with the ground. Its displacing the ground around him just like how a fish doesn't overlap with water but instead pushes the water around it. So I think it makes sense that the Earth Elemental can displace the ground around him so that it surrounds a creature he is dragging into the ground.

But it also says:

Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence

To me that strongly implies that the Earth Elemental does not displace any material.

gogogome

2020-10-22, 05:18 AM

But it also says:

To me that strongly implies that the Earth Elemental does not displace any material.

It displaces the material in a way that doesn't leave a mark. Such as the displaced earth overlaps with other earth molecules and when the Earth Elemental leaves it un-overlaps back not necessarily in its original position.

It's an Ex ability that defies laws of physics. Trying to make heads or tails of it will make no sense since by definition it defies common sense.
All that matters is it's a burrow not a phasing like incorporeal, it's like a fish in water, it defies the laws of physics, and grappling lets you move creatures to where you're moving.

In any case this whole thing is 100% DM decision and judgement. But I do agree with newguydude1, by RAW it works for grapples but not mounts.

Segev

2020-10-22, 09:55 AM

I'm saying there's room to rule either way.

On the one hand, it's magical earth elemental burrowing, so maybe going with it is like riding in a submarine through the water.

On the other hand, just because the earth parts for or permeates the elemental doesn't mean that anybody it's grabbed by the ankle (or otherwise is grappling/carrying) gets this benefit. It could be that the earth simply won't part for nor permeate the person being carried, thus they impact the ground/earth/dirt/stone as if it weren't being burrowed through, or it could be that they're getting dragged bodily through said earth, scraping along it as it closes like stone teeth around them, grinding them to a pulp.

Of course, unless the elemental CAN carry people harmlessly through the ground, they probably can't carry anything with them. Likewise, I recommend against "they can pull them in, but it's going to grind them up" on the basis that they don't have an attack mode for that and it's probably overpowered to turn a grapple+move into a probably-more-damage-than-a-full-attack scenario.

Bronk

2020-10-22, 11:38 AM

Earth elementals were definitely not very well thought out. I'd imagine the writers either didn't spend too long on earth elementals and assumed there wouldn't be any problems with this, perhaps because they assumed they'd only ever appear as opponents or summoned monsters, or druids just looking to fight. They didn't know their fan base very well!

They can glide through the earth, and it's non-magical, yet it's like a fish through water. You'd imagine that they could grab people and drag them underground, but aside from grappling, there aren't any rules for that, and that previously mentioned Stone Flyer from Underdark implies that bringing people with them without harming them is a separate magical ability. They would have a hard time taking people by surprise as well, because without tremorsense they also can't see when they're earthgliding! They didn't forget to give tremorsense to the Stone Flyer though, and they didn't fix any of that during the switch to 3.5.

Transforming into one with magic would normally make a character's equipment meld into the new form, but there's no extra instructions for earthglide about what happens if a wizard picks something up later, or later on if a druid has a wild shape clasp.

The Manual of the Planes doesn't help, because it adds that people astrally projecting onto the Plane of Earth can earthglide around just fine without any stipulation that they have any issues bringing their equipment with them. So earthglide extends that far at least, but no further.

I'd have to rule that if an earth elemental tried to bring someone down into the earth with it peacefully as with a mount, the character would just be left sitting in the dirt. If it tried to bring someone down forcibly, it would be a grapple, and the damage from the grapple would represent being squished by the ground. There's no specified method to know when the elemental would be successful squishing the character into the ground, but then they'd be taking damage as if they were on the elemental plane, which says it's like the earthquake spell, and the circumstances line up with taking 1d6 damage per round just from that, along with suffocation.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-22, 02:56 PM

Of course, unless the elemental CAN carry people harmlessly through the ground, they probably can't carry anything with them. Likewise, I recommend against "they can pull them in, but it's going to grind them up" on the basis that they don't have an attack mode for that and it's probably overpowered to turn a grapple+move into a probably-more-damage-than-a-full-attack scenario.
What about Rashemi Elemental Summoning? Thomil earth elementals get Engulf.

They would have a hard time taking people by surprise as well, because without tremorsense they also can't see when they're earthgliding! They didn't forget to give tremorsense to the Stone Flyer though, and they didn't fix any of that during the switch to 3.5.
You don't need Tremorsense, just a high Listen modifier. Then use the rules for incorporeal creatures hiding in solid objects (which are the rules for pinpointing invisible creatures with a +2 bonus).
Earth Elementals do have maxed ranks in Listen. Sure, Tremorsense would be thematically appropriate, but it's not necessary for them to work.

It could even be a deliberate choice, allowing stealthy characters to sneak by elementals hiding underground before Darkstalker was a thing.

liquidformat

2020-10-22, 03:18 PM

The only way I can see this working is if the elemental somehow ate you.

AKA earth elemental power armor.

I like the idea of powered elemental earth armor sounds awesome.

I think allowing the earth elemental to walk up to the party underground, grab the squishiest back liner, drag them into the earth then leave them entombed in solid rock sets a bad precedent.
It overvalues burrow speeds and encourages unfun and boring tactics.

What's so unreasonable about this? It's a decently standard tactic to have a flier pull a grab and drop or a swimmer bring someone underwater to drown, heck even big strong guy to throw someone off a cliff. What makes this so much worse than any of those tactics?

Drelua

2020-10-22, 04:25 PM

What's so unreasonable about this? It's a decently standard tactic to have a flier pull a grab and drop or a swimmer bring someone underwater to drown, heck even big strong guy to throw someone off a cliff. What makes this so much worse than any of those tactics?

It's much easier to avoid falling damage, with feather fall being an immediate action and there being cheap items that do it automatically. Plus a flier would have to carry you a bit of a distance upwards to do significant damage, and pushing someone off a cliff requires, well, a cliff. Earth glide just requires ground they can glide through, so it would be an option pretty much anywhere you'd fight an earth elemental. The rules are clear on what happens if you get picked up 10 feet and then dropped; 1d6 damage and you're prone. What happens if you get pulled 10 feet into solid stone and then released? How do you get out of that? Unless your wizard happened to prepare one of a few spells, like passwall, you just die because of 1 or 2 grapple checks. And earth elementals, being big and strong, have a pretty good grapple bonus. It would just be too effective, and too hard to get out of.

This is somewhat beside the point though, since OP specified willing passengers. If you get killed because you let an earth elemental trick you into taking you for a ride and dropping you, that's another thing. They have 0 bluff, so that should be fairly easy to avoid.

rel

2020-10-22, 09:36 PM

Basically the above.

Also, the rules surrounding burrowing, being buried and heck even grappling aren't very well thought out nor particularly comprehensive so you find yourself needing to make rulings or facing situations that make no sense.

Mostly though, I find it just leads to and encourages boring gameplay.

newguydude1

2020-10-22, 10:01 PM

It's much easier to avoid falling damage, with feather fall being an immediate action and there being cheap items that do it automatically. Plus a flier would have to carry you a bit of a distance upwards to do significant damage, and pushing someone off a cliff requires, well, a cliff. Earth glide just requires ground they can glide through, so it would be an option pretty much anywhere you'd fight an earth elemental. The rules are clear on what happens if you get picked up 10 feet and then dropped; 1d6 damage and you're prone. What happens if you get pulled 10 feet into solid stone and then released? How do you get out of that? Unless your wizard happened to prepare one of a few spells, like passwall, you just die because of 1 or 2 grapple checks. And earth elementals, being big and strong, have a pretty good grapple bonus. It would just be too effective, and too hard to get out of.

This is somewhat beside the point though, since OP specified willing passengers. If you get killed because you let an earth elemental trick you into taking you for a ride and dropping you, that's another thing. They have 0 bluff, so that should be fairly easy to avoid.

how do you get out of losing a will save against sleep
how do you get out of losing a will save against color spray
how do you get out of a fireball as a wizard with your tiny hp pool
how do you get out of a hold person and getting coup de grace
how do you get out of a baleful polymorph
how do you get out of a flesh to stone
how do you get out of triggering a trap that insta gibs you.
how do you get out of a greater planar binding after you become an outsider through one of many prc capstones
how do you get out of blasphemy
how do you get out of losing a fort save against implosion

d&d is one giant mass of save or die. grapple is the earth elementals save or die. saying its strong and therefore doesnt work like that doesnt make any sense. how do you defend against it? simply dont get grappled. a wizard getting grappled by any improved grab creature is insta death already.

Segev

2020-10-22, 10:16 PM

SirNibbles

2020-10-23, 11:34 AM

newguydude1

2020-10-23, 11:41 AM

The ability description says nothing of anyone or anything else being to come with the elemental, so they cannot. It's as simple as that.

for mount yes but for grapple, raw says when you move you bring everyone with you. full stop.
so if you glide into the ground you bring everyone into the ground with you. full stop.
flying has additional disqualifiers like your maximum carry weight and light load and stuff. but earth glide has no disqualifiers. burrow has no disqualifiers.

Segev

2020-10-23, 01:54 PM

for mount yes but for grapple, raw says when you move you bring everyone with you. full stop.
so if you glide into the ground you bring everyone into the ground with you. full stop.
flying has additional disqualifiers like your maximum carry weight and light load and stuff. but earth glide has no disqualifiers. burrow has no disqualifiers.

There is a ponential disqualifier of the creature being unable to enter the space you're entering.

As an example, I don't think you can grapple a summoned evil creature and drag it into the radius of a magic circle against evil.

Necroticplague

2020-10-23, 02:56 PM

yes. It moves through 'as a fish moves through water'. Something moving through water can certainly drag something along with it, so why can't an earth elemental when moving as if through water?

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-23, 03:49 PM

yes. It moves through 'as a fish moves through water'. Something moving through water can certainly drag something along with it, so why can't an earth elemental when moving as if through water?

Because whatever it's dragging can't move through earth the way it can through water. Earth Glide applies to the elemental only, not to whatever it's grappling.
Or at least that's how i would rule it.

newguydude1

2020-10-23, 04:12 PM

There is a ponential disqualifier of the creature being unable to enter the space you're entering.

As an example, I don't think you can grapple a summoned evil creature and drag it into the radius of a magic circle against evil.

magic circle is a barrier that allows some stuff and rejects other stuff.
earth glide makes stone act like water that doesnt create ripples while in contact with earth elemental.

we all agreed a creature swallowed by the earth elemental will be allowed to "benefit" from earthglide. so why not a creature who is hugged and pulled by an earth elemental in the span of 6 seconds. this isnt teleport that forces a shunt. this is earth acting like water. maybe it continues to act like water for 6 seconds after contact with earth elemental ends. theres a million ways to fluff this. so we need to look at crunch only.

Eldonauran

2020-10-23, 04:26 PM

so we need to look at crunch only.
If we go by crunch only, then only the Earth Elemental benefits from the ability. Doesn't matter how you fluff it. Treat it like ghost trying to pull a ghost touch weapon through a wall with it. The ghost moves through, the weapon hits the wall and doesn't.

InvisibleBison

2020-10-23, 04:40 PM

In D&D, you can't do something unless there's a rule that says you can. Since there's nothing in the rules saying that earth elementals can bring others with them, they cannot do so.

newguydude1

2020-10-23, 04:42 PM

If we go by crunch only, then only the Earth Elemental benefits from the ability. Doesn't matter how you fluff it. Treat it like ghost trying to pull a ghost touch weapon through a wall with it. The ghost moves through, the weapon hits the wall and doesn't.

no. you dont treat it like a ghost. thats your own house rule. you treat it like a burrow, and a fish in water.

Burrow

A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

earth elemental is tunneling through stone in a way that doesnt disrupt the surface and such after he leaves the space. its still a tunnel no matter how short its existence is.

Segev

2020-10-23, 05:00 PM

magic circle is a barrier that allows some stuff and rejects other stuff.
earth glide makes stone act like water that doesnt create ripples while in contact with earth elemental.

we all agreed a creature swallowed by the earth elemental will be allowed to "benefit" from earthglide. so why not a creature who is hugged and pulled by an earth elemental in the span of 6 seconds. this isnt teleport that forces a shunt. this is earth acting like water. maybe it continues to act like water for 6 seconds after contact with earth elemental ends. theres a million ways to fluff this. so we need to look at crunch only.

If we go by crunch only, then only the Earth Elemental benefits from the ability. Doesn't matter how you fluff it. Treat it like ghost trying to pull a ghost touch weapon through a wall with it. The ghost moves through, the weapon hits the wall and doesn't.

no. you dont treat it like a ghost. thats your own house rule. you treat it like a burrow, and a fish in water.

earth elemental is tunneling through stone in a way that doesnt disrupt the surface and such after he leaves the space. its still a tunnel no matter how short its existence is.

Can a Medium human drag a Huge Giant through a tunnel 5 feet square in cross-section? Note that a Huge creature cannot even squeeze through that space; they are forbidden. Nothing prevents a Medium human from grappling a Huge Giant (though it's harder, obviously, due to size difference), so this scenario can legally come up.

The tunnel created by the earth elemental is not given a size. It is unclear whether it can fit an extra creature in there with it. This comes down to a DM's ruling. I remain of a mind not to give an Earth Elemental an unlisted save-or-die ability in the form of "Grapple, drag underground, and abandon in a tomb with no space to move."

Alcore

2020-10-23, 05:11 PM

Earth Elementals have Earth Glide, which is pretty awesome. It would be more awesome if they could also serve as pseudo-mounts.

Can they?
If the party can gather enough elementals, sure. I'll allow it. Hope you can breath or hold breath, plus... about... 1d6 damage per round from the friction (unless it is able to envelop person). Hope the spell doesn't run out in transit.

Not something i would use against party though...

Necroticplague

2020-10-23, 05:14 PM

Can a Medium human drag a Huge Giant through a tunnel 5 feet square in cross-section? Note that a Huge creature cannot even squeeze through that space; they are forbidden. Nothing prevents a Medium human from grappling a Huge Giant (though it's harder, obviously, due to size difference), so this scenario can legally come up.
Actually, there is very explicitly something to stop this.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.
I know powerful build/jutonbrud would get around this, but pointless pedantry is a fun hobby.

Segev

2020-10-23, 05:36 PM

Actually, there is very explicitly something to stop this.

I know powerful build/jutonbrud would get around this, but pointless pedantry is a fun hobby.

Ah, my bad; I remembered it being "more than two sizes smaller."

newguydude1

2020-10-23, 05:43 PM

by raw because its a burrow and fish in water, when an earth elemental glides through stone, he is effortlessly making a tunnel that collapses as soon as he leaves the space. if there is another human in the way of collapsing then the collapsing will stop. it wont crush the character cause no rules. it wont shunt the character cause no rules.

tunnel->collapse fully or until it cant collapse any further because something is in the way.
earth elemental can totally drag a guy through the tunnel hes effortlessly creating.

this is raw. no ghost incorporeal comparison because this is a burrow.

Actually, there is very explicitly something to stop this. [/COLOR]

a character with a high base attack can grapple and move on the same turn assuming he succeeds all of his checks so not being able to maintain a hold doesnt stop everything.

segev is right that you cant fit a huge guy in a medium hole so likewise a medium earth elemental cant drag a huge guy into the earth cause the tunnel he makes is medium sized.

SangoProduction

2020-10-23, 06:42 PM

Actually, there is very explicitly something to stop this.

I know powerful build/jutonbrud would get around this, but pointless pedantry is a fun hobby.

You mention ways to grapple larger creatures, but not ways to squeeze much smaller than normal. Like oozes. Who would then run into the same problems. Don't even need to go to any special rules though, as simply going to the extreme limits of maximum grapple size and minimum squeeze space does get you to the same problem.

But, as you say.

Necroticplague

2020-10-23, 08:00 PM

a character with a high base attack can grapple and move on the same turn assuming he succeeds all of his checks so not being able to maintain a hold doesnt stop everything.
1. No they can't.

Move
You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Regardless of BaB, you'd need two standard actions to grab someone and move them in the same turn.
2. It stops everything. You literally cannot grapple someone more than a size category above you without a special ability. This isn't the check to maintain a grapple: this is the check to even start one.

newguydude1

2020-10-23, 08:07 PM

1. No they can't.
Regardless of BaB, you'd need two standard actions to grab someone and move them in the same turn.

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
...
Move

You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

rule compendium repeats this

InvisibleBison

2020-10-23, 08:10 PM

this is raw. no ghost incorporeal comparison because this is a burrow.

Earth glide isn't burrowing. Earth elementals don't have a burrow speed. They can't burrow. The description of earth glide uses the word "burrowing", but that's just sloppy writing, not a call out to the burrowing rules.

newguydude1

2020-10-23, 08:12 PM

Earth glide isn't burrowing. Earth elementals don't have a burrow speed. They can't burrow. The description of earth glide uses the word "burrowing", but that's just sloppy writing, not a call out to the burrowing rules.

says you. wheres your proof that this is the case. they couldve used the words phase or ghost but instead they used burrow. seems open and shut to me.

InvisibleBison

2020-10-23, 08:29 PM

says you. wheres your proof that this is the case. they couldve used the words phase or ghost but instead they used burrow. seems open and shut to me.

Earth elementals don't have a burrow speed. See their monster entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental) for proof.
In order to engage with the burrow rules, you have to have a burrow speed. See the first sentence of the burrow rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#burrow) for proof.
Since earth elementals don't have a burrow speed, they can't engage with the burrow rules. This follows from the above.
That enough proof for you?

newguydude1

2020-10-23, 08:37 PM

Earth elementals don't have a burrow speed. See their monster entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental) for proof.
In order to engage with the burrow rules, you have to have a burrow speed. See the first sentence of the burrow rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#burrow) for proof.
Since earth elementals don't have a burrow speed, they can't engage with the burrow rules. This follows from the above.
That enough proof for you?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xorn.htm

xorn have an identical earth glide, word for word copy paste, and they have a burrow speed.

InvisibleBison

2020-10-23, 08:43 PM

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xorn.htm

xorn have an identical earth glide, word for word copy paste, and they have a burrow speed.

Okay, so xorns can both earth glide and burrow. What does that have to do with earth elementals?

Zombimode

2020-10-24, 01:45 AM

we all agreed a creature swallowed by the earth elemental will be allowed to "benefit" from earthglide.

Uhm... no, "we" didn't. I don't agree with that at all.

In my view the elementals earth glide ability applies to the elemental and nothing else. I don't see any evidence in the text that would imply anything else.

SirNibbles

2020-10-24, 03:06 AM

Uhm... no, "we" didn't. I don't agree with that at all.

In my view the elementals earth glide ability applies to the elemental and nothing else. I don't see any evidence in the text that would imply anything else.

I agree with you. In addition:

"Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe"

I don't see how something without a digestive tract is going to swallow someone.

__

As for an elemental dragging people with it: it has the ability to ignore the laws of physics which do the following:
-prevent it from occupying the same space as other matter
-prevent it from moving through solid objects

What part of earth glide allows any other creature besides the elemental itself to benefit from the same effects?

newguydude1

2020-10-24, 03:51 AM

the oppositions entire argument:
ignore burrow and fish in water by calling it "authors poor word choice."
now that you ignored raw you call it phasing or ghosting and ignore the raw description of what burrowing is.
now that your calling it phasing or ghosting you claim it works like incorporeals moving through solid object with no rule support whatsoever. literally pulled out of thin air.
now that the words burrow and the phrase fish in water is transformed to phasing or ghosting, you never ever i mean ever address the issue that the description says burrow and fish in water, completely ignore what the game tells you exactly what a burrow is, and make me repeat myself again and again and again and then you claim your right.
now that you changed the entire description of the ability you do whatever you want.

nothing i said is addressed. no one addressed what a burrow is and the fact that the description says burrow burrow burrow. all you do is "poor word choice" or just try to ignore the definition of what a burrow is and then claim your right.

this will probably be my last post.

I agree with you. In addition:

"Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe"

I don't see how something without a digestive tract is going to swallow someone.?

thommils dont have digestive tracks and they engulf entire creatures and theyre earth elementals with earth glide. what kind of logic is this.

badgers grapple creatures underground and you say earth elemental burrow is different because it works on stone and not just soil.

anyways im done. ttyl.

Drelua

2020-10-24, 11:35 AM

how do you get out of losing a will save against sleep
how do you get out of losing a will save against color spray
how do you get out of a fireball as a wizard with your tiny hp pool
how do you get out of a hold person and getting coup de grace
how do you get out of a baleful polymorph
how do you get out of a flesh to stone
how do you get out of triggering a trap that insta gibs you.
how do you get out of a greater planar binding after you become an outsider through one of many prc capstones
how do you get out of blasphemy
how do you get out of losing a fort save against implosion

d&d is one giant mass of save or die. grapple is the earth elementals save or die. saying its strong and therefore doesnt work like that doesnt make any sense. how do you defend against it? simply dont get grappled. a wizard getting grappled by any improved grab creature is insta death already.

I'm not going to argue about each of these hypotheticals, but they all sort of prove my point, in that in all of these situations, the rules are very clear about what happens. They can be avoided, mitigated, or reversed, whether or not you successfully avoid them. You take x amount of damage, you have to roll y on a d20, you need whatever spell cast on you to remove the condition. What the rules aren't clear on, is what happens if you're buried alive. Do you take damage? Can you dig yourself out? Can you breathe? What if you have a teleportation spell, can you cast? Are somatic components possible? Do verbal components come with a failure chance? Is there a concentration DC?

There's just too many unknowns for me to give earth elementals an ability this effective that they do not explicitly have. I'm fine with making a few rulings where the rules are unclear, but there's just too many questions you have to make up the answers to. It's so much easier, and I think more fair to the people being potentially buried alive, to just say elementals can't do this. And neither decision is raw, there are no rules one way or the other to follow as written.

And people are not ignoring your comments, they have all been responded to directly. We just don't happen to agree with your interpretation. Whether or not they use the burrow rules without a burrow speed, nothing about burrow says anything one way or the other about bringing creatures with you so it isn't really relevant to the question.

But we've all made our positions clear by this point, if we don't have any new points to make then dropping the argument is likely for the best.

Segev

2020-10-24, 11:46 AM

It all boils down to a DM's call, really.

Nothing in the rules says an earth elemental can bring anybody or even anything along with it when it uses Earth Glide. Nothing explicitly says it cannot. You can try to reason out what it's doing in the fiction layer to come to a conclusion one way or another.

It's possible that an "earth elemental" is non-living dirt animated by an elemental spirit, in which case "earth glide" really is "ghosting" by changing what earth the elemental spirit is animating at the moment. It's possible that the earth of the elemental is specially physical to the elemental, in which case it is traversing that mass of dirt through the ground. This could be burrowing, leaving a tunnel that collapses immediately behind, or it could be more like swimming, with the earth parting and closing behind almost fluidly.

We're not given any information in the RAW as to what the narrative of the traversal is. Just that it can do so. We know it lacks a Burrow speed. Earth Glide lets it use its normal land speed to traverse earth. I think the Xorn having a Burrow speed and Earth Glide indicates these are distinct abilities: burrowing can take you through anything, really, while Earth Glide has specific substance limitations. Seems to me a xorn could earth glide to beneath a building, then burrow up through its foundations, while an earth elemental could not (and would have to resort to "attack an object" rules to break through if it wanted to).

Drelua

2020-10-24, 01:37 PM

We're not given any information in the RAW as to what the narrative of the traversal is. Just that it can do so. We know it lacks a Burrow speed. Earth Glide lets it use its normal land speed to traverse earth. I think the Xorn having a Burrow speed and Earth Glide indicates these are distinct abilities: burrowing can take you through anything, really, while Earth Glide has specific substance limitations. Seems to me a xorn could earth glide to beneath a building, then burrow up through its foundations, while an earth elemental could not (and would have to resort to "attack an object" rules to break through if it wanted to).

I think you've got that backwards, burrow can't go through stone unless it says otherwise, but both creatures earth glide abilities can go through stone or earth, just not metal.

SangoProduction

2020-10-24, 02:20 PM

Biggus

2020-10-24, 09:52 PM

The default has to be that unless a rule specifies you can do something, you can't*. Otherwise players could just make up all sorts of new powers that they have and say "the rules don't say I can't do this".

Also, compare with the Teleport spell for example: it specifies how many people you can bring with you and under what circumstances, whereas earth glide just refers to the creature itself being able to move that way.

*other than things any sentient creature is normally able to do, such as walk and talk, obviously.

gogogome

2020-10-24, 11:01 PM

This discussion is getting nonsensical.

That enough proof for you?

No. It's highly inadequate. You didn't provide any proof at all.

Okay, so xorns can both earth glide and burrow. What does that have to do with earth elementals?

And people are not ignoring your comments, they have all been responded to directly. We just don't happen to agree with your interpretation. Whether or not they use the burrow rules without a burrow speed, nothing about burrow says anything one way or the other about bringing creatures with you so it isn't really relevant to the question.

So according to you guys
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm
The Ravid has a flight speed and a separate Su ability that gives it flight? Come on.

This is open and shut.

newguydude1 correctly pointed out that burrowing by RAW creates a tunnel that collapses behind you. Same thing happens when you drop a rock into a pond. A "tunnel" is created momentarily before the water collapses behind the rock as it submerges. And the Earth Glide description specifically says "fish in water".

Earth Glide is specficialy said to be a burrow. Twice in fact.

You can grapple a creature and use your burrow speed to drag it into a ground.

Therefore Earth Glide lets you drag creatures into the ground.

All this obtuse rule lawyering to try and make Earth Glide not a burrow is crazy. Especially by saying Ravids have a flight speed separate to their SU ability so that you can say Xorns have a burrow speed separate to their Ex ability so that you can say Earth Elementals don't have a burrow speed so that you can say Earth Glide is not a burrow despite the three sentences that is its description explicitly say its a burrow twice and to akin it to a fish swimming in water instead of a ghost phasing through the walls.

Earth Glide is a burrow. There is only one definition of burrow in d&d. Open and shut.

Except save-or-dies SAY what they do. Earth Elementals don't even MENTION grappling, and certainly don't give mechanics that outright state they're designed to "save or die" by dragging people underground.

WotC directly said they did not intend psicrystals to double the number of feats a Psion has. But that's how the rules work. So WotC's oversight is no excuse nor "proof" of anything.

Drelua

2020-10-24, 11:41 PM

This discussion is getting nonsensical.

No. It's highly inadequate. You didn't provide any proof at all.

So according to you guys
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm
The Ravid has a flight speed and a separate Su ability that gives it flight? Come on.

Sorry, where are you responding to here? I honestly can't see what point this makes. Ravids have an ability that gives them flight and a fly speed. It just works a little different than flight normally does, hence the ability desccription saying how it works.

This is open and shut.

newguydude1 correctly pointed out that burrowing by RAW creates a tunnel that collapses behind you. Same thing happens when you drop a rock into a pond. A "tunnel" is created momentarily before the water collapses behind the rock as it submerges. And the Earth Glide description specifically says "fish in water".

Earth Glide is specficialy said to be a burrow. Twice in fact.

You can grapple a creature and use your burrow speed to drag it into a ground.

Therefore Earth Glide lets you drag creatures into the ground.

All this obtuse rule lawyering to try and make Earth Glide not a burrow is crazy. Especially by saying Ravids have a flight speed separate to their SU ability so that you can say Xorns have a burrow speed separate to their Ex ability so that you can say Earth Elementals don't have a burrow speed so that you can say Earth Glide is not a burrow despite the three sentences that is its description explicitly say its a burrow twice and to akin it to a fish swimming in water instead of a ghost phasing through the walls.

Earth Glide is a burrow. There is only one definition of burrow in d&d. Open and shut.

WotC directly said they did not intend psicrystals to double the number of feats a Psion has. But that's how the rules work. So WotC's oversight is no excuse nor "proof" of anything.

No, it's not open and shut. Xorns have earth glide and a burrow speed, earth elementals have earth glide, but no burrow speed. It's seems logical to me to assume that there was meant to be a distinction between the two. Earth glide could be considered a way to burrow, using the definition of the word, not the game term, but that doesn't mean earth glide has to follow the rules for a burrow speed. Even if it does, nothing about the burrow rules says you can drag someone under, so that doesn't mean that's possible.

Biggus

2020-10-25, 02:19 AM

This is open and shut.

newguydude1 correctly pointed out that burrowing by RAW creates a tunnel that collapses behind you.

No, that isn't RAW. Here's the actual wording:

"Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing)"

(emphasis mine)

So some creatures which burrow leave a tunnel which collapses behind them, others don't.

Same thing happens when you drop a rock into a pond. A "tunnel" is created momentarily before the water collapses behind the rock as it submerges. And the Earth Glide description specifically says "fish in water".

Earth Glide is specficialy said to be a burrow. Twice in fact.

You can grapple a creature and use your burrow speed to drag it into a ground.

Therefore Earth Glide lets you drag creatures into the ground.

All this obtuse rule lawyering to try and make Earth Glide not a burrow is crazy. Especially by saying Ravids have a flight speed separate to their SU ability so that you can say Xorns have a burrow speed separate to their Ex ability so that you can say Earth Elementals don't have a burrow speed so that you can say Earth Glide is not a burrow despite the three sentences that is its description explicitly say its a burrow twice and to akin it to a fish swimming in water instead of a ghost phasing through the walls.

Earth Glide is a burrow. There is only one definition of burrow in d&d. Open and shut.

It's not a burrow in 3.5, because Earth Elementals don't have a burrow speed. In the Rules Compendium it specifically says "creatures that don’t have a natural burrow speed can’t burrow at all" (p.90).

So I'm afraid the rules in 3.5 are indeed open and shut: earth glide is not a burrow.

magicalmagicman

2020-10-25, 02:27 AM

Wait, are you guys seriously saying an ability that directly says its a burrow isn't a burrow because the authors forgot to include it in the speed section?

gogogome

2020-10-25, 02:37 AM

Wait, are you guys seriously saying an ability that directly says its a burrow isn't a burrow because the authors forgot to include it in the speed section?

Pretty much.

Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels

Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole

It's not a burrow!!!

magicalmagicman

2020-10-25, 02:38 AM

Pretty much.

It's not a burrow!!!

Alright. Just checking.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-25, 02:44 AM

This is open and shut.

newguydude1 correctly pointed out that burrowing by RAW creates a tunnel that collapses behind you. Same thing happens when you drop a rock into a pond. A "tunnel" is created momentarily before the water collapses behind the rock as it submerges. And the Earth Glide description specifically says "fish in water".

Earth Glide is specficialy said to be a burrow. Twice in fact.

It's completely irrelevant if Earth Glide is burrowing or not because specific trumps general, and Earth Glide explicitly points out that

Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence.
Creating even a temporary tunnel that collapses behind you is definitely sign of your presence that anyone with tremorsense (or eyes and ears, if you're close to the surface) can pick up on.

So, by my interpretation, the earth elemental must move through the ground without actually displacing any material because that's the only way it can conform to that rule.

It's not a burrow in 3.5, because Earth Elementals don't have a burrow speed. In the Rules Compendium it specifically says "creatures that don’t have a natural burrow speed can’t burrow at all" (p.90).

So I'm afraid the rules in 3.5 are indeed open and shut: earth glide is not a burrow.
Except specific trumps general and the Earth Elemental has a specific ability that lets it burrow despite not having a burrow speed, so it's really not open and shut in any way.

Biggus

2020-10-25, 03:04 AM

Wait, are you guys seriously saying an ability that directly says its a burrow isn't a burrow because the authors forgot to include it in the speed section?

I don't know of any reason to think the authors forgot to include it in the speed section. It would hardly be first time D&D authors used sloppy language...

Except specific trumps general and the Earth Elemental has a specific ability that lets it burrow despite not having a burrow speed, so it's really not open and shut in any way.

But it's not burrowing in the sense of being the "burrow" ability. The Rules Compendium makes that crystal clear.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-25, 03:17 AM

But it's not burrowing in the sense of being the "burrow" ability. The Rules Compendium makes that crystal clear.
The specific ability of the elemental calls it burrowing. Twice. And as the more specific rule it would override the more general rules for burrowing in the RC.

But as i said, the difference is irrelevant.
The elemental moves through earth and stone without any sign of its presence, so by definition it cannot displace material while doing so.

Also any argument that relies on two things not being the same despite being called the same thing is pretty much the opposite of crystal clear by default. :smalltongue:
It's (unfortunatly) not without precedent in 3.5, but that's hardly proof of it being that way in this instance.

InvisibleBison

2020-10-25, 07:34 AM

Wait, are you guys seriously saying an ability that directly says its a burrow isn't a burrow because the authors forgot to include it in the speed section?

Yes, we're saying that the RAW are the rules that are written in the book. "The authors obviously meant to add this rule, but they forgot to do so" is a RAI argument, not a RAW argument.

magicalmagicman

2020-10-25, 07:48 AM

Yes, we're saying that the RAW are the rules that are written in the book. "The authors obviously meant to add this rule, but they forgot to do so" is a RAI argument, not a RAW argument.

No. The RAW argument is that Earth Glide lets Earth Elementals burrow through earth.

What you guys are doing is neither RAW nor RAI. It's just pure irrationality. Which is why I have no interest in joining the debate.

Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels

Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel

If someone told me Earth Glide isn't burrowing because... what were you guys saying? Rules Compendium said creatures without burrow speed can't burrow despite having spells/ex/su abilities that let you burrow? And therefore spells/ex/su abilities that lets you burrow isn't actually burrowing but ghosting/phasing and the author chose words poorly?

Yeah. No.

For the record, this is RAW: "Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel"
And whatever it is you're doing is not.

hamishspence

2020-10-25, 09:36 AM

I think the point of Earth Glide instead of a burrow speed, is that the creature does not have any of the penalties normally imposed by Burrow. It can use the Run action. It can Charge. It can move through stone.

InvisibleBison

2020-10-25, 09:48 AM

Okay, clearly no one is going to be able to persuade anyone on the earth glide/burrow issue. Fine. However, I don't think it matters. Neither earth glide nor the normal burrow rules say anything about being able to bring anyone along with you, so there are no rules about whether it can be done. Whether that means that RAW it can't be done or that the RAW is ambiguous strikes me as a matter of opinion, though I'd be inclined to take the former position. Clearly, though, it's not RAW that you can do so.

Segev

2020-10-25, 11:12 AM