Sorcadin, to dip or not to dip?

[Zotharius]

Sooo I've been playing with the idea of a paladin2 / hexblade2 / sorc x.

Heavy armor smites with quickened Hold Person and GFB for NOVA later on sounds epic and is mainly why I want 2 in paladin.. aside from loving paladins.

Question is... would dipping hexblade delay progression too much? I figure its let me use CHA for any GFB/ BB attacks grabs me agonizing blast, and hell, why not Devil's sight? Figure itd let me run Draconic sorc with fire affinity for CHA added to GFB or things such as fireball or scorching ray and not miss out on shadow sorc's darkvision/darkness shenanigans as well as the added HP.

I'm planning to run a Dragonborn with 16 8 14 8 11 18 (32-point buy) and was originally going to just run some version of a straight up sorcadin, buuuut then this idea caught my fancy. The only problem is, I'm trying to keep decent progression for levels 1-10 and feel like this may delay metamagic, sorcery points, higher level spells and ASIs (namely War Caster and maxing out CHA) too much if I'm going more of the caster-gish route, compared to say a pure lock / sorc or whatnot.

So what do you guys think? Dip hexblade? Or drop hexblade?

[CMCC]

If you’re using a 1 handed weapon then a hexblade dip is probably worth it. In fact you can lower your strength to 15, and bump con and focus on Cha.

I’d personally only dip 1 lvl in hexblade. Once you go to 2, I kind of want to go 3 for the pact - and that’s a big investment.

If you need devils sight and really want agonizing blast then it may be worth it.

There have been people here who have used 2 levels in hex and really like it.

By level 10 you’d be pal2/ hex 1/ sorc 7
You’d be an 8th level caster with 4th level spells and 5 first level slots for shield, absorb elements, and hex (or AoA or whatever else).

Losing that dip in hex does get you 5th level spells by 10, but you’d have to invest a bit more in strength and you only have 2 ASI by 10th. Not a lot of room to play with there.

[jojosskul]

A straight up Paladin 2/Warlock X multiclass could be really viable as well. More and more powerful short rest slots to smite with, a pact, and if you decide on Pact of the Blade you even still get the benefits of extra attack. You lose out on metamagic, but get the benefits of more invocations and faster (warlock) spell progression, while still getting to be SAD. And then at level 5 you aren't still casting 1st level spells while everyone else is using 3rd, you'll at least have the benefit of 2nd level spells.

If you REALLY want to triple class, you might be happier by going Paladin 1, Hexblade 1, Sorcerer 5, Paladin 2, Hexblade 2, Sorcerer X. This way your early game is less delayed and at least for PART of your career your only one spell level behind dedicated casters. This could help the fun factor of your build by a lot in those early levels.

[RogueJK]

If you REALLY want to triple class, you might be happier by going Paladin 1, Hexblade 1, Sorcerer 5, Paladin 2, Hexblade 2, Sorcerer X. This way your early game is less delayed and at least for PART of your career your only one spell level behind dedicated casters. This could help the fun factor of your build by a lot in those early levels.

Paladin's generally don't multiclass into Sorcerer primarily for high level spellcasting. You're more of a melee fighter with spells, rather than a spellcaster with some heavy armor. Instead, they do it for higher level spell slots for Smites, to make the most of the Nova on their single attack per round (or occasional two attacks with a Quickened/Twinned Booming Blade), plus be able to cast some choice spells. The build you're suggesting wouldn't be able to Smite until Level 8, which is not at all ideal.

That's why these builds go Paladin 2 or Hexblade1/Paladin2 on the front end, before moving over to Sorcerer. You don't need 3rd level spells ASAP to be competitive, like primary spellcasters. You're staying competitive with your Booming Blade attacks, and the ability to Quicken/Twin them, which puts you in line with the other martials with Extra Attack at Level 5ish.

Going Paladin 2 on the front end also gets you early access to the Paladin Concentration buff spells like Bless or Shield of Faith, which will be your go-to Concentration spells at early levels.

Hex is less useful for a Paladin 2 Sorhexadin getting 1 attack per round, but better on a Paladin 6 Sorhexadin or a Blade Padlock with multiple attacks. For a Sorhexadin going Hexblade 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, I'd suggest Armor of Agathys and Shield as your two Warlock spells, and plan on upcasting AoA.

[jojosskul]

Paladin's generally don't multiclass into Sorcerer primarily for high level spellcasting. You're more of a melee fighter with spells, rather than a spellcaster with some heavy armor. Instead, they do it for higher level spell slots for Smites, to make the most of the Nova on their single attack per round (or occasional two attacks with a Quickened/Twinned Booming Blade), plus be able to cast some choice spells. The build you're suggesting wouldn't be able to Smite until Level 8, which is not at all ideal.

That's why these builds go Paladin 2 or Hexblade1/Paladin2 on the front end, before moving over to Sorcerer. You don't need 3rd level spells ASAP to be competitive, like primary spellcasters. You're staying competitive with your Booming Blade attacks, and the ability to Quicken/Twin them, which puts you in line with the other martials with Extra Attack at Level 5ish.

Going Paladin 2 on the front end also gets you early access to the Paladin Concentration buff spells like Bless or Shield of Faith, which will be your go-to Concentration spells at early levels.

Hex is less useful for a Paladin 2 Sorhexadin getting 1 attack per round, but better on a Paladin 6 Sorhexadin or a Blade Padlock with multiple attacks. For a Sorhexadin going Hexblade 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer X, I'd suggest Armor of Agathys and Shield as your two Warlock spells, and plan on upcasting AoA.

Point taken, from that angle I see what you're saying. The one time I've played Sorcadin I did Pal 6/Sorc X, so was assuming that the Pal 2 version would focus a bit more on the casting side with smiting as a side dish, but I see now it's intended as a full Gish. So yeah, I think your level progression would accomplish the intended goals more smoothly.

[RogueJK]

The one time I've played Sorcadin I did Pal 6/Sorc X, so was assuming that the Pal 2 version would focus a bit more on the casting side with smiting as a side dish, but I see now it's intended as a full Gish.

Yeah, either way - Paladin 2 base or Paladin 6 base - you're a martial with spells ("gish") rather than a primary spellcaster. It's all in how you want to go about it, either one large attack per round with a little higher spells known (starting Paladin 2 and leaning on BB) or multiple attacks per round with better saves and having lower spells known but similar spell slots (starting Paladin 6).

[Frogreaver]

Just drop the Hexblade.

Go straight pally 2 / sorc x Boost charisma. Being at +3str instead of +4 str isn’t a big deal.

If by the time you are about to max charisma or right after you’ve maxed it, at that point consider Hexblade 1. You won’t need 2 as you have sorcerer ranged cantrip (not as strong as EB+AB but still a ranged attack).

[RogueJK]

You won’t need 2 as you have sorcerer ranged cantrip (not as strong as EB+AB but still a ranged attack).

Yep. A Sorhexadin shouldn't be trying to maximize Eldritch Blast by spending another level chasing Agonizing Blast. You can't smite with EB, and you'll be on the front lines most of the time anyway.

And while gaining a ranged cantrip like Eldritch Blast, Firebolt, or Chill Touch is a great addition for a Paladin, who are traditionally weaker against ranged/flying opponents, you only really need one. So losing Eldritch Blast by dropping Hexblade altogether isn't that big of a deal in and of itself. (The loss of Hexblade's Curse, Armor of Agathys, and CHA SADness is a bigger hit, depending on the build.)

Personally, I prefer Chill Touch as my one ranged attack cantrip on a Sorcadin. It's 1 point less average damage per die than Firebolt (d8 vs d10), but Necrotic damage runs into resistance/immunity less often compared to Fire damage, and the "no healing" and "undead disadvantage" riders prove themselves very useful in some situations.

And while I haven't tried it yet, the UA Mind Sliver cantrip could be handy, not only doing some ranged damage but also setting up the combo of a Quickened Mind Sliver + Save or Suck spell (or as an "alley-oop" for your party's primary spellcaster).

[Aimeryan]

I have played Pal 2/Hex 1/Divine Sorc X (and, in that order) as my main for near two years now and it plays really well. My recommendation is 1H+Shield VHuman and take Mobile.

Mobile allows you to use Booming Blade then move away; almost always means getting the extra damage which actually puts it ahead of even a PAM Paladin (although, not a PAM GWM Pal if AC is low) for straight damage (no Smite). Alternatively, the enemy stays where it is and either does nothing or attacks a tanky frontliner. Even enemy casters will likely move if you Quicken a Darkness due to not being able to see targets for spells which require it (which is most non-aoe spells).

Defensively, Shield/Absorb Elements give you the edge over a pure Paladin. Saves are weaker if you don't go to 6 in Pal, which makes casters more dangerous (although, no more than for any non-Paladin), however, Darkness can play a strong role here. Note, if you want to use Shield/Absorb Elements with a 1H+shield you either need to take Warcaster or drop your weapon at the end of your turn - however, no OA if you drop your weapon, and in some terrain it is not viable. Another possiblity is to simply draw, attack, sheath all in the same turn if the DM allows that interpretation of the following text (since it is one object rather than two):


You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action...[snip]...If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action.

If facing three+ enemies then Spiritual Guardians is my go to Concentration spell; cripples enemy movement, deals great damage over multiple turns. Even better if your DM rules that entering an area is not based on your relative movement to a mutually fixed point (i.e., they are fine with the spell moving instead of you moving). Throw out a non-concentration AoE spell (like Ice Storm or Mass Suggestion) while you are at it if the encounter is particularly nasty.

If facing a single tough enemy or two strong enemies then Twin Haste is usually a good option (particularly if paired with a Rogue who knows how to use Ready), or Quicken Hold Person if applicable (then Smite for all you are worth!). On later rounds you can also Quicken Booming Blade (which stacks in a sort of way, although some DMs will disallow this).

Lastly, you have a lot of some utility and battlefield control from being a Sorcerer.

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2 Pal or 6 Pal? Depends on group composition and size, in my opinion. Having a greater number of melee favours Pal 6 both because the aura is more beneficial and it becomes more difficult to proc Booming Blade (or waste the enemy turn) so a PAM GWM 2H Extra Attack build becomes more favourable. If you only have three players in the party total (not counting the DM), and one of them is a hit and run Rogue and the other is a Warlock - so, basically, my party - then Pal 2 definitely becomes more favourable.

[bendking]

Personally, I think the best Sorcadin would be: Paladin 6 --> Sorcerer 8 --> Hexblade 1 --> Sorcerer 13
This is both because I prefer the Paladin 6 over the Paladin 2 variation, and because you get the most out of the Hexblade dip once your CHA is maxed, which would be level 14 (if you take Warcaster at level 4, which is basically mandatory for Sword & Board).
If you manage to get Gauntlets / Belt of Ogre Strength, the dip is largely wasted and unnecessary.