[RESOLVED] Odd Dragon Discple build [3.5]

[Arkhios]

First things first, I hate Session 0 because I can't make up my mind in just one session in regards to creating a character.

I tried to make it easier for myself (and I did, kinda) by making several options beforehand, to choose from when I finally rolled the stats.

I decided upon trying to make a dragon disciple, with the rather limited resources we have at our disposal (Player's Handbook, Non-Evil prestige classes from DMG, Feats and Spells from Deities and Demigods, Feats, Spells, and psionic (prestige-)classes without manifester levels from XPH [partially my own fault, since my previous Character showed our DM how ridiculously broken Psionic Powers really are in 3.5], as well as Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Gods and Magic, and Player Companion materials up to Second Darkness and Elves of Golarion (in their chronological release order)).

I rolled relatively well in my opinion: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10

My build at 1st level is as follows:

Human Barbarian 1
Skill Ranks: Decipher Script 1, Know. (Arcana) 1, Know. (History) 1, Know. (Religion) 1, Perform (Sing) 2, Profession (sailor) 1, Sense Motive 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 2
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash
Character Concept is more or less an Ulfen Skald (since the class doesn't exist yet in our timeline I try to re-create it thematically).

...and my plan is to, eventually, have Barbarian 4/Cleric (Holy Warrior variant) 1/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 10, and stats with relevant increases:
Str 24, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 12, stacking all of the extra spell slots gained from Dragon Disciple as 1st level cleric spell slots.


The rest of the party:

Dwarf Ranger, Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Gnome Druid, Str 11, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10 with Riding Dog
Human Sorcerer, Str 6, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 16

[noob]

First things first, I hate Session 0 because I can't make up my mind in just one session in regards to creating a character.

I tried to make it easier for myself (and I did, kinda) by making several options beforehand, to choose from when I finally rolled the stats.

I decided upon trying to make a dragon disciple, with the rather limited resources we have at our disposal (Player's Handbook, Non-Evil prestige classes from DMG, Feats and Spells from Deities and Demigods, Feats, Spells, and psionic (prestige-)classes without manifester levels from XPH [partially my own fault, since my previous Charater showed our DM how ridiculously broken Psionic Powers really are in 3.5], as well as Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Gods and Magic, and Player Companion materials up to Second Darkness and Elves of Golarion).

I rolled relatively well in my opinion: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10

My build at 1st level is as follows:

Human Barbarian 1
Skill Ranks: Decipher Script 1, Know. (Arcana) 1, Know. (History) 1, Know. (Religion) 1, Perform (Sing) 2, Profession (sailor) 1, Sense Motive 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 2
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash
Character Concept is more or less an Ulfen Skald (since the class doesn't exist yet in our timeline I try to re-create it thematically).

...and my plan is to, eventually, have Barbarian 4/Cleric (Holy Warrior variant) 1/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 10, and stats with relevant increases:
Str 24, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 12, stacking all of the extra spell slots gained from Dragon Disciple as 1st level cleric spell slots.


The rest of the party:

Dwarf Ranger, Str 15, Dex 12, Con 14, Into 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Gnome Druid, Str 11, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10 with Riding Dog
Human Sorcerer, Str 6, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 16

You will lag massively behind the druid and the sorcerer if they decide to stay single classed and starts accumulating the slightest bit of system mastery.
You might even be weaker than a single classed ranger.
That is how bad that prc actually is.
So worry about outperforming the others if they think the best use of their actions is picking up a daisy and putting it back to the ground all day long (which might be the case).
Taking a lot of levels in sorcerer and using polymorph (then later polymorph any object or shapechange) will give you more power and still make you feel dragon like.
Ps: having low charisma is not a death sentence to being a sorcerer: there is ways to raise it enough to keep being able to cast your spells.
You might also try being a single classed cleric with the Trickery domain(which grants a ton of great spells like timestop, invisibility and Polymorph any objet) and get full dragon transformation at level 15.(so 5 levels earlier)

Or seeing your crazily high int (14) you might roll a wizard but you risk being too powerful if you have a good mastery of the system.

[Rebel7284]

Do you have to keep those stats in order or can you swap them around? Specifically 13 con on a front line character is bad. What first level spell are you thinking about casting with your cleric slots?

I think ultimately this character suffers from the usual issue of being weaker than straight barbarian. The strength boosts barely make up for the lost BAB. First level spells are cool for wand access and some utility, but some ranks in UMD are often sufficient.

[noob]

Do you have to keep those stats in order or can you swap them around? Specifically 13 con on a front line character is bad. What first level spell are you thinking about casting with your cleric slots?

I think ultimately this character suffers from the usual issue of being weaker than straight barbarian. The strength boosts barely make up for the lost BAB. First level spells are cool for wand access and some utility, but some ranks in UMD are often sufficient.

I think they really want the dragon theme.(else nobody picks that prc) so going full barbarian would be a loss of that theme for them.

[Gorthawar]

I would prefer barbarian 1/bard4/dragon disciple 10. You lose 1 BaB less, get 3 more uses of bardic music, lose 1 rage but most importantly you can use your disciple slots on lvl 2 bard spells.

[Arkhios]

Do you have to keep those stats in order or can you swap them around? Specifically 13 con on a front line character is bad. What first level spell are you thinking about casting with your cleric slots?

I think ultimately this character suffers from the usual issue of being weaker than straight barbarian. The strength boosts barely make up for the lost BAB. First level spells are cool for wand access and some utility, but some ranks in UMD are often sufficient.


I would prefer barbarian 1/bard4/dragon disciple 10. You lose 1 BaB less, get 3 more uses of bardic music, lose 1 rage but most importantly you can use your disciple slots on lvl 2 bard spells.

The Cleric's Holy Warrior variant doesn't lose BAB. It loses domains and domain spell slots, but gains BAB equal to cleric level and d10 hit die (as well as proficiency in deity's favored weapon, which is rather irrelevant for me). The variant is found in the book Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.

I have to keep those stats, because I've already introduced the character in play for the first time. It's a commonly accepted house-rule, at least in my circles.

Rage 1/day is rather lame, but 2/day is manageable. I will take Extra Music feat (found in Deities & Demigods), which will give me 4 extra uses of bardic music at a time. The feat can be taken multiple times, and I will take it at least once. Possibly twice. One level of bard is taken only to qualify for Dragon Disciple. Bard's Cantrips are spontaneously cast arcane spells, so they qualify. It's possible, perhaps even probable that I'll use medium armor at some point, so bard spellcasting would suffer due to ASF%. Especially because I'll be using a shield (bards are only able to ignore ASF% from light armor).

I won't have Con 13 forever. It will increase by 1 at 4th level, and I'd argue the hit points I have until then will suffice better than well. Higher than usual AC and reflex save bonus won't hurt either. Besides, I'll have d12 hit die for the most of my career, and the total BAB is far better than a single classed druid has. Also, druids don't have a spell that make them a virtual fighting machine in the same way as Divine Power or Tenser's Transformation does for cleric and wizards, respectively. Wild Shape is good, of course, but still not equal.

One of the 1st level cleric spells that I'll be casting is purely a thematic choice: Endure Elements, and bard doesn't have access to it. Other potential spells would be Shield of Faith or Protection from Alignment spells, or a deity [Torag] specific spell from Gods & Magic: Fallback Strategy [Torag]. There are more, of course, but the extra spell slots are not the thing I'm really looking for from Dragon Disciple. I think of them more as utility options whenever needed. Not something to rely upon. For spellcasting I will rely more on UMD, but the DC's are rather high so I won't be able to use it effectively for a long time, even though I will maximize the ranks asap, and keep it up to pace from there on.

[Doctor Despair]

If you like the dragon theme, you could pick a dragon race and a different class. A Dragonwrought Kobold is a dragon, for example (and arguably a true dragon, depending on which side of the 50+ page debates you fall on), and you can start venerable for +3 to all your mental stats and no penalty to your physical stats. Dragonborn of Bahamut is another dragon-themed template you can throw on, and it can grant very dragon-y breath weapons or flight. There's always the good old half-dragon (+3 LA) template for more dragon qualities, too.

Alternatively, you could take levels in Paladin and take Dragon Steed to replace your special mount with a dragon and use it like a second character, as it is intelligent. You get a Dragonnel at 9, and the type of dragon you use progresses as you level, capping out at a young gold dragon at high levels.

Alternatively, you could take Dragon Cohort for similar reasons.

Edit: Saw your limited source list... That rules out dragon steed and dragon cohort, as those are from the Draconomicon, and Dragonwrought/Dragonborn, as those are from Races of the Dragon. Half-Dragon is from the monster manual though, so I'd hope that would be on the table

You get the dragon type, if you are large you get flight, you get 4 natural armor, two claws and a bite attack, explicitly can mix in its natural weapons with manufactured weapons for a full-attack action (manufactured as primary, natural become secondary), you get a breath weapon, immunity to paralysis and sleep (and one other element based on dragon type), and bonuses to stats (+8str, +2 to con/int/cha).

[AvatarVecna]

Given 3.5 in the title, I didn't realize Pathfinder material was on the table. What are the limits on that?

[DarkSoul]

If you can take the pathfinder dragon disciple you'll be a little better off. Otherwise just be a half dragon and deal with the +3 LA. You'll come out ahead in the end.

[Arkhios]

Given 3.5 in the title, I didn't realize Pathfinder material was on the table. What are the limits on that?


If you can take the pathfinder dragon disciple you'll be a little better off. Otherwise just be a half dragon and deal with the +3 LA. You'll come out ahead in the end.

Oh sweet summer childs...

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting as well as the four first Pathfinder Adventure Paths predate Pathfinder Core Rulebook by a year. Pathfinder didn't always use it's own rules. The first four adventure paths (Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, and Legacy of Fire) along with several other Pathfinder Chronicles products were written to be used with D&D 3.5 rules.

Pathfinder Chronicles is kind of like a playtest period for Pathfinder's core rules (similar to D&D Next being the playtest for 5th edition D&D)

Alas, I can't choose to play a half-dragon just like that. I must abide to the rules I specifically listed in the OP. In red text.

[Fouredged Sword]

I mean, I think you would have a better time playing a straight cleric personally. The stats you get from dragon disciple are easily overshadowed by the buffs you will have access to as a cleric. As a cleric you don't need crazy wisdom at all. All you need to do is keep up with your spell slot access and that's easy with +wis items.

[DarkSoul]

Oh sweet summer childs...

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting as well as the four first Pathfinder Adventure Paths predate Pathfinder Core Rulebook by a year. Pathfinder didn't always use it's own rules. The first four adventure paths (Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, and Legacy of Fire) along with several other Pathfinder Chronicles products were written to be used with D&D 3.5 rules.

Pathfinder Chronicles is kind of like a playtest period for Pathfinder's core rules (similar to D&D Next being the playtest for 5th edition D&D)

Alas, I can't choose to play a half-dragon just like that. I must abide to the rules I specifically listed in the OP. In red text.So you can take a junk PrC from the DMG but can't take a template from the MM, that effectively duplicates the class but costs you 7 less levels? Good luck with that I suppose.

[Arkhios]

So you can take a junk PrC from the DMG but can't take a template from the MM, that effectively duplicates the class but costs you 7 less levels? Good luck with that I suppose.

Well, I didn't make up these rules... So, I'm not sure how that attitude is supposed to help?

[Glimbur]

My preferred beatstick dragon disciple splashes sorcerer instead of bard, and doesn't take that cleric dip. There are some useful sorc 1 spells, though the really crazy stuff like nerveskitter is not in your allowed sources. It also lets you use wands of sorc/wiz spells and gives a shot at using scrolls too. The skill points to enter DD are a little trickier without the bard boost though.

I'm not convinced the bard music will really help you much, likewise level 1 cleric casting without domains is kind of... not great? It does open up cleric wands but your party has a druid to handle some of that stuff.

[Gorthawar]

Rage 1/day is rather lame, but 2/day is manageable. I will take Extra Music feat (found in Deities & Demigods), which will give me 4 extra uses of bardic music at a time. The feat can be taken multiple times, and I will take it at least once. Possibly twice. One level of bard is taken only to qualify for Dragon Disciple. Bard's Cantrips are spontaneously cast arcane spells, so they qualify. It's possible, perhaps even probable that I'll use medium armor at some point, so bard spellcasting would suffer due to ASF%. Especially because I'll be using a shield (bards are only able to ignore ASF% from light armor)
.

I understand your thinking but as I said I'd prefer 2nd level bard spells. With 18 Dex before boosts I don't think wearing medium armor would be that beneficial over light armor in the first place and going for a sword and board twf build would really hamper you even more in this build. The one thing it has going on is a good strenght score to support power attacking.

[noob]

I mean, I think you would have a better time playing a straight cleric personally. The stats you get from dragon disciple are easily overshadowed by the buffs you will have access to as a cleric. As a cleric you don't need crazy wisdom at all. All you need to do is keep up with your spell slot access and that's easy with +wis items.

I mentioned that and the fact that a straight cleric could use polymorph any object to dragonify themselves at level 15.(feel free to refluff that as a natural transformation but that your powers as a dragon are disrupted by magic dispelling effects)

[Arkhios]

Welp. First level is locked in place — class, skills, stats, and race included. Can't go straight cleric now, and wisdom 11 doesn't really encourage that either. Besides, my previous character was a Cerebremancer (wizard/psion) so I don't want to play another primary caster just yet. Maybe never again. I realized that I very much prefer martials over spellcasters anyway. And I actually do like the idea of a highly intelligent barbarian, so I'm not upset with what I have at the moment.

However, how I will approach the rest of this build is not locked in place. I wanted Dragon Disciple because now was the perfect opportunity to play a "dragonborn" (Skyrim-style, a.k.a. a non-dragon character with the soul of a dragon, and my dragonborn from skyrim is a Nord, thus an Ulfen in Golarion).

I would be satisfied with only 4 to 6 levels in Dragon Disciple, but I'm really not sure yet.


I understand your thinking but as I said I'd prefer 2nd level bard spells. With 18 Dex before boosts I don't think wearing medium armor would be that beneficial over light armor in the first place and going for a sword and board twf build would really hamper you even more in this build. The one thing it has going on is a good strenght score to support power attacking.

Mithral armor is a thing, you know. Although, to be fair, a mithral chainmail (max dex +4) or breastplate (max dex +5) would count as a light armor, and the lighter my armor would be the better. But casting with a shield still does interfere with bard's spells.
Still, Charisma 10 limits my spells to bard cantrips, so... I'll make the most out of the one level in bard and use Inspire Courage as much as I can. A bonus to hit and damage is still a bonus, and Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration so I can continue singing even while raging.

Sword and Board TWF really doesn't hamper all that much. Rage basically negates the extra -2 penalty to hit, and thus in rage you're effectively subjected to normal TWF penalties.

Also, it'll be until 8th character level before I'll get to increase Dex to 18, and until then I may be using a normal breastplate, or if available, a mithral full-plate.

[Gorthawar]

Mithral armor is a thing, you know. Although, to be fair, a mithral chainmail (max dex +4) or breastplate (max dex +5) would count as a light armor, and the lighter my armor would be the better. But casting with a shield still does interfere with bard's spells.
Still, Charisma 10 limits my spells to bard cantrips, so... I'll make the most out of the one level in bard and use Inspire Courage as much as I can. A bonus to hit and damage is still a bonus, and Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration so I can continue singing even while raging.

Sword and Board TWF really doesn't hamper all that much. Rage basically negates the extra -2 penalty to hit, and thus in rage you're effectively subjected to normal TWF penalties.

Also, it'll be until 8th character level before I'll get to increase Dex to 18, and until then I may be using a normal breastplate, or if available, a mithral full-plate.

Well the question to this thread was whether you are out of you mind to try this build and it clearly has a lot of problems as is. The power level of your campaign might be sufficiently low for it to work considering the 23pt buy ranger but as previously mentioned the druid and the sorcerer should really outclass you fairly soon because you're playing a weaker base class, you don't optimise to it's strength and you add a fairly poor prestige class on top.

Let's have a look at your character at level 5 assuming you took barbarian 4/cleric1 and compare it to the druids dog.

You
Base Attack is +5
Strength bonus +2 (+4 when raging)
So a when raging a full attack will be +5/+5 while carrying a heavy shield and you'll do 1d8+4/1d6+2 damage. You'll get +2 to hit and go down to 1d4 if you use a light shield instead which is probably advisable.

Riding Dog
Base Attack +3
Strength bonus +3
Full Attack +6 / 1d6+4 damage and if trained for war (why not?) He gets a free trip attempt on hit.

As such I'd say you're a bit better on attack when raging and a bit worse without. A bit better than just one of the druids class features.

And whilst your defense at this level is ok (+5Armor, +3dex, +2 shield - 2 rage) = AC18 it's nothing to brag about either and equal to the dogs AC.

The single bard level adds the option of a +1/+1 morale bonus but only once per day unless you get a feat for it. Dragon disciple gives some decent stat increases but using the sword and shield two weapon fighting doesn't leverage them much. The general wisdom is that if you got more attacks through twf you need to get some bonus damage to make it count.

[Arkhios]

The general wisdom is that if you got more attacks through twf you need to get some bonus damage to make it count.

...I do? Strength boosts (both from Dragon Disciple and Rage) do add to damage too, or I've been playing the game wrong for almost two decades. :smallbiggrin:

And what comes to Inspire Courage and Extra Music, I plan(ned) to take the bard level at 3rd character level and take the feat immediately, so that I would have 5 uses of bardic music right away.

[Gorthawar]

...I do? Strength boosts (both from Dragon Disciple and Rage) do add to damage too, or I've been playing the game wrong for almost two decades. :smallbiggrin:

And what comes to Inspire Courage and Extra Music, I plan(ned) to take the bard level at 3rd character level and take the feat immediately, so that I would have 5 uses of bardic music right away.

The strenght bonus doesn't work that well with twf as you only get 50% of the bonus to your off hand. Take the example at 5th level above. With showed and board you get 2 attacks at +7/+7 that deal a total of 1d8+1d4+6 damage. If you were wielding a greatsword instead it would be 1 attack at +9 doing 2d6+6 damage and you could trade the extra 2 to hit for another 4 points of damage with power attack.

Looking at lvl 16 you'd have a BaB of +12, strength bonus of +8 for a +18/+13/+8 attack at 1d8+8 and +18/+13 at 1d4+4 which is an average of 51 damage a round when you hit all your attacks. And this is only when you actually get a full attack off. Otherwise you do 1d8+8 damage only for a whole turn.

Even adding bardic music and magic items into the mix it will not get you anywhere near where you should be when fighting level appropriate challenges.

But ofc it's your game and your character and your twenty year experience may vary. As long as you enjoy playing anything goes.

[Arkhios]

The strenght bonus doesn't work that well with twf as you only get 50% of the bonus to your off hand. Take the example at 5th level above. With showed and board you get 2 attacks at +7/+7 that deal a total of 1d8+1d4+6 damage. If you were wielding a greatsword instead it would be 1 attack at +9 doing 2d6+6 damage and you could trade the extra 2 to hit for another 4 points of damage with power attack.

Looking at lvl 16 you'd have a BaB of +12, strength bonus of +8 for a +18/+13/+8 attack at 1d8+8 and +18/+13 at 1d4+4 which is an average of 51 damage a round when you hit all your attacks. And this is only when you actually get a full attack off. Otherwise you do 1d8+8 damage only for a whole turn.

Even adding bardic music and magic items into the mix it will not get you anywhere near where you should be when fighting level appropriate challenges.

But ofc it's your game and your character and your twenty year experience may vary. As long as you enjoy playing anything goes.

I'm aware that TWF splits your damage bonus unevenly between the weapons, but I don't think it's all that bad to be honest. The total bonus is equal to that of a two-handed attack's damage bonus. The difference is in that a two-handed attack has to hit one target, while with two weapons you have a choice to spread out from a "tunnel vision" approach. More often than not, two-hander damage rolls result in unnecessary overkills when you could've landed the remainder on some other target. And having a shield as my off-hand weapon improves my defenses as well.

Not everyone plays the game to win other players in some arbitrary competition. Some do, believe it or not, play the game to immerse themselves with thematic choices. My intention is to play a "viking" with an adaptable and aggressive fighting style. In fact, I've been thinking that I might actually use the shield as a weapon only when I'm raging. Which is not possible all the time, given how few daily uses I have. The Heavy Shield's +2 base AC bonus negates the AC penalty from Rage.

And my intention is not to be the "Tank". I'm more than happy to leave that role to the druid - or even their dog. But I don't mind having a little bit extra AC either.

Besides, let's not forget that I'm more than likely to get my hands on magic items that increase my strength even further, or magic weapons and/or shields. I probably will stick to heavy shield until I can get my hands on a Bashing Light Shield. Magical weapons may also add extra dice to the damage rolls.

[noob]

Welp. First level is locked in place — class, skills, stats, and race included. Can't go straight cleric now, and wisdom 11 doesn't really encourage that either. Besides, my previous character was a Cerebremancer (wizard/psion) so I don't want to play another primary caster just yet. Maybe never again. I realized that I very much prefer martials over spellcasters anyway. And I actually do like the idea of a highly intelligent barbarian, so I'm not upset with what I have at the moment.

However, how I will approach the rest of this build is not locked in place. I wanted Dragon Disciple because now was the perfect opportunity to play a "dragonborn" (Skyrim-style, a.k.a. a non-dragon character with the soul of a dragon, and my dragonborn from skyrim is a Nord, thus an Ulfen in Golarion).

I would be satisfied with only 4 to 6 levels in Dragon Disciple, but I'm really not sure yet.



Mithral armor is a thing, you know. Although, to be fair, a mithral chainmail (max dex +4) or breastplate (max dex +5) would count as a light armor, and the lighter my armor would be the better. But casting with a shield still does interfere with bard's spells.
Still, Charisma 10 limits my spells to bard cantrips, so... I'll make the most out of the one level in bard and use Inspire Courage as much as I can. A bonus to hit and damage is still a bonus, and Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration so I can continue singing even while raging.

Sword and Board TWF really doesn't hamper all that much. Rage basically negates the extra -2 penalty to hit, and thus in rage you're effectively subjected to normal TWF penalties.

Also, it'll be until 8th character level before I'll get to increase Dex to 18, and until then I may be using a normal breastplate, or if available, a mithral full-plate.

Cleric is a really strong class even if you have poor spell access: The domains are already really cool and you will lose out on bab but even the low level buff spells can compensate and it is not that hard to craft an item that grants bonus wisdom: you will be able to do that at level 4 thanks to the +1 wisdom you can gain at that level.
Even if you are delayed one level a cleric can be a good melee class especially when it was already a class boosting melee.
Buffstack clerics are absolutely scary and you can be good at that after level 9.

I understand not playing a cleric because of the other players applying social pressure toward them healing. (which is a really bad decision if you are low in wisdom and thus have few slots to spare)

Getting a second level in barbarian is extremely tempting because the coolest barbarian stuff is in the two first levels but levels beyond that are much less useful.

If you want to go buffstack beatstick and do an optimal use of your stats you can take a five levels in wizards then take levels in EK and with the wizard route you will be able to use alter shape to make yourself partially dragon as soon as level 4 then use polymorph to become full dragon at level 9 and finally use pao for long lasting effect at level 17.
you can also make your allies be dragons, summon dragons then dragon the dragons.

[Arkhios]

Cleric is a really strong class even if you have poor spell access: The domains are already really cool and you will lose out on bab but even the low level buff spells can compensate and it is not that hard to craft an item that grants bonus wisdom: you will be able to do that at level 4 thanks to the +1 wisdom you can gain at that level.
Even if you are delayed one level a cleric can be a good melee class especially when it was already a class boosting melee.
Buffstack clerics are absolutely scary and you can be good at that after level 9.

I understand not playing a cleric because of the other players applying social pressure toward them healing. (which is a really bad decision if you are low in wisdom and thus have few slots to spare)

Getting a second level in barbarian is extremely tempting because the coolest barbarian stuff is in the two first levels but levels beyond that are much less useful.

If you want to go buffstack beatstick and do an optimal use of your stats you can take a five levels in wizards then take levels in EK and with the wizard route you will be able to use alter shape to make yourself partially dragon as soon as level 4 then use polymorph to become full dragon at level 9 and finally use pao for long lasting effect at level 17.
you can also make your allies be dragons, summon dragons then dragon the dragons.

I'm not interested in dragoning the dragons to summon dragons dragon dragons thankyouverymuch. You seem to be making fun of me, and I sincerely would hope you'd stop that right there. I'm not a dragon-fanatic.

As I said, I just played a caster in a previous game, and I would rather not play another now. EK is a caster. Primary cleric is a caster. Dragon Disciple's primary appeal to me was in their boosts to ability scores and their sheer physical power, and I won't deny, breath weapon is just cool to have, even if only 1/day. One level of bard is only to qualify for the PrC and one level of holy warrior cleric is only to get a (imho) better use out of those Dragon Disciple's extra spell slots. Otherwise I intended to be a melee combatant, with some extra tricks up my sleeves.

[noob]

I'm not interested in dragoning the dragons to summon dragons dragon dragons thankyouverymuch. You seem to be making fun of me, and I sincerely would hope you'd stop that right there. I'm not a dragon-fanatic.

As I said, I just played a caster in a previous game, and I would rather not play another now. EK is a caster. Primary cleric is a caster. Dragon Disciple's primary appeal to me was in their boosts to ability scores and their sheer physical power, and I won't deny, breath weapon is just cool to have, even if only 1/day. One level of bard is only to qualify for the PrC and one level of holy warrior cleric is only to get a (imho) better use out of those Dragon Disciple's extra spell slots. Otherwise I intended to be a melee combatant, with some extra tricks up my sleeves.

That prc is so bad that the only legitimate reason to pick it is for the theme so I assumed the reason was the theme.
Else just getting more levels in barbarian and fighter and other martial classes will boost your character more in terms of fighting power: power attack is a thing so getting boosts to chance to hit can increase damage.

[Doctor Despair]

That prc is so bad that the only legitimate reason to pick it is for the theme so I assumed the reason was the theme.
Else just getting more levels in barbarian and fighter and other martial classes will boost your character more in terms of fighting power: power attack is a thing so getting boosts to chance to hit can increase damage.

The man should just try to get his DM to let him bring in something from the Draconomicon, RotD, or the MM for goodness' sake. If he wants a dragon themed melee character, letting him be a Dragonwrought Kobold or a Dragonborn of Bahamut is very tame and requires no extra research or material to be imported. The DM is definitely using the Monster Manual, so letting him apply the Half-Dragon template for 3LA wouldn't even require any additional books or research...

[noob]

The man should just try to get his DM to let him bring in something from the Draconomicon, RotD, or the MM for goodness' sake. If he wants a dragon themed melee character, letting him be a Dragonwrought Kobold or a Dragonborn of Bahamut is very tame and requires no extra research or material to be imported. The DM is definitely using the Monster Manual, so letting him apply the Half-Dragon template for 3LA wouldn't even require any additional books or research...

Except they brought a new information: they do not like dragons specifically and they picked that prc because they did not realise it was worse than picking more levels in barbarian and fighter.

Since they do not care about the dragon theme and wants to have high stats and does not like spellcasting the result is that the optimal class is obvious: they should take levels in druid and decide to never cast spells and use wildshape for having high physical stats.

[Arkhios]

The man should just try to get his DM to let him bring in something from the Draconomicon, RotD, or the MM for goodness' sake. If he wants a dragon themed melee character, letting him be a Dragonwrought Kobold or a Dragonborn of Bahamut is very tame and requires no extra research or material to be imported. The DM is definitely using the Monster Manual, so letting him apply the Half-Dragon template for 3LA wouldn't even require any additional books or research...

I've never seen or heard any DM allow their players play a character with a template of any sort from the first level forward. So what, if there are templates in MM? Just because they are listed as having a Level Adjustment doesn't mean they are supposed to be openly usable as player tools. NPC's have levels too. Templates are tools for the DM, more than they are for the players.

I've seen players with monstrous races though. That's entirely different thing.

but I don't want my character to look like a dragon. Have any of you ever played Skyrim before. Or even heard of it? Because you should take a good look at it, and it's idea of the concept of a dragonborn. THAT's where I'm drawing inspiration from, not from the stupid upright man-dragon with a dragon face.

[noob]

I've never seen or heard any DM allow their players play a character with a template of any sort from the first level forward. So what, if there are templates in MM? Just because they are listed as having a Level Adjustment doesn't mean they are supposed to be openly usable as player tools. NPC's have levels too. Templates are tools for the DM, more than they are for the players.

I've seen players with monstrous races though. That's entirely different thing.

but I don't want my character to look like a dragon. Have any of you ever played Skyrim before. Or even heard of it? Because you should take a good look at it, and it's idea of the concept of a dragonborn. THAT's where I'm drawing inspiration from, not from the stupid upright man-dragon with a dragon face.

Except that the dragon disciple at high level makes you look like a stupid upright man dragon with a dragon face unless you refluff and if you can refluff then you do not need that prc.

The dragonborn from skyrim would just be a multiclassed character with a varying amount of rogue, fighter, sorcerer and eldricht knight levels depending on how you raised your abilities: the dragonborn thing is only a plot thing to justify adding a few exotic spells to the sorcerer spell list called dragon shouts and for justifying getting them when murdering dragons and should be considered rather as alternate loot.

So for playing the skyrim dragonborn you would just need to take levels to classes corresponding to what you do and restrain the access to dragon themed spell and get them after killing dragons(ex: you decide to pick fireball after killing a red dragon then cone of frost after killing a white dragon)

[RaiKirah]

I don't really have much to say about your class selection (aside from saying that you should play what you want to play and ignore the Tier 1 caster groupies) but there were three feats you have access to that stand out to me:

It's probably too late to retcon this, but Hidden Talent for Expansion is fantastic for a front line fighter, particularly if you can get your hands on some Manifester arrows (or even better, shuriken) with which to fuel it.

Similarly, Knock-Down is a fantastic way to bring some BFC to your (hopefully now Large sized) character, and the 10 damage threshold to trigger the trip attack is pretty easy to get to even with off-hand attacks from TWF.

Finally, not sure how you would qualify with these sources, but you technically have access to Multiweapon Fighting, so if you can get a third hand (or a tail and Tail Blade, etc ) you could swap the TWF feat tree for those.

[Arkhios]

The dragonborn from skyrim would just be a multiclassed character with a varying amount of rogue, fighter, sorcerer and eldricht knight levels depending on how you raised your abilities: the dragonborn thing is only a plot thing to justify adding a few exotic spells to the sorcerer spell list called dragon shouts and for justifying getting them when murdering dragons and should be considered rather as alternate loot.

So for playing the skyrim dragonborn you would just need to take levels to classes corresponding to what you do and restrain the access to dragon themed spell and get them after killing dragons(ex: you decide to pick fireball after killing a red dragon then cone of frost after killing a white dragon)

Draw inspiration ≠ Make an exact copy.

[noob]

Draw inspiration ≠ Make an exact copy.

So what I say is that the dragon disciple is exactly the worst class to pick if what inspires you is the skyrim dragonborn and that picking more barbarian ,rogue and fighter levels and saying that you have power coming from your fundamental nature(as a pure fluff thing) will not only make a stronger dnd character but will also not make you be an ugly upright dragon.
The entire point of dragon disciple is "become an ugly upright dragon" it changes your size, adds you scales, makes you grow wings, claws and pointy teeth none of which are featured on the skyrim dragonborn.

[Arkhios]

I'm beginning to doubt my sanity more because I brought up this topic in here and less because of the concept.

[noob]

I'm beginning to doubt my sanity more because I brought up this topic in here and less because of the concept.

We already told the upright dragon was a very weak character in the start of the thread.
The gm have no reason to ban it: it is too weak to be ban worthy.
So if you want to play the upright dragon and think that somehow it looks sightly like the dragonborn then feel free to do so but you will feel an odd disconnect each time you want to enter a house but that you are too big due to being an upright dragon or each time a npc feels fear when looking at your claws and pointy teeth.

The only disruptions to the campaign will be
1:when a fight excepts the party to have 4 level 10 characters but that you are weaker than a typical level 10 character and it is going to be worse as the levels raise. (but before you get any levels in the bad prc you will be competitive)
2: When you look like a freak and normal villagers panics (happens mostly when you start having claws but the gm might not think about the implications of someone strange walking in a village with constantly visible weapons in which case the disruption is avoided) which happens only if the gm thinks a little bit about the implications of an upright dragon walking in.

[TheStranger]

You might be out of your mind, but that shouldn’t stop you from trying. I’ve had a lot of fun with Dragon Disciple as a melee brute, but it does take some careful planning to pull it off. You really want to leverage the Strength bonuses for all they’re worth, because that’s the primary thing DD has going for it compared to more typical martial classes. With the limited sources you have available, it’s going to be challenging.

The easiest way to leverage a high Str score is to get a two-handed weapon and apply Power Attack as needed (usually with things like Shock Trooper and Leap Attack). But it sounds like you’re committed to TWF, and IMO just adding a modest damage bonus isn’t enough mileage from that Str boost. With TWF, you want to leverage the number of attacks by adding bonus damage like Sneak Attack, or by adding effects when you hit. To that end, Knock-Down is a good suggestion, as it leverages your Str score as well. With Improved Trip, you also get a free attack when you trip somebody. Find a way to reliably get big, and you’ll be able to trip most opponents. Note that Dragon Apotheosis means Enlarge Person stops working on you, though.

As noted, however, if your goal is just “fierce warrior with some dragon fluff,” not “dragon man,” you’re probably better off taking straight Barbarian and adding dragon fluff primarily through roleplay.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As noted, however, if your goal is just “fierce warrior with some dragon fluff,” not “dragon man,” you’re probably better off taking straight Barbarian and adding dragon fluff primarily through roleplay.
Going to third this. Or fourth. Whatever we're up to.


I'd suggest a DFI bardsader with Perform (Traditional Draconic Battle Taunts), or perhaps an A-game paladin with the same. However, both are almost entirely outside your source restrictions, so I guess you're stuck with just barbarian/bard. Which is a pretty good build, actually. You can maintain Inspire Courage in a rage, and though you can't cast spells in a rage, you can select out-of-combat utility spells to compensate for the barbarian's lack of such. Unfortunately, your stats are mostly terrible for such a build, so...


I don't think you're going to get anything approaching a traditional "optimized" build out of what you've got. The build takes something that isn't powerful to begin with (sword and board TWF), then has stats that don't work with the build (low-ish STR/CON, low CHA), and on top of that, very strict source restrictions prevent access to important feats (Agile Shield Fighter, for one).

I'd personally just continue with levels in ranger, take Point Blank Shot at 3, enter Horizon Walker and take Manyshot at 6, and then Greater Manyshot at 9, picking up Terrain Mastery (shifting) at level 11. Then continue with ranger, I guess. Very different direction, I realize, but worth considering.

[Demidos]

but I don't want my character to look like a dragon. Have any of you ever played Skyrim before. Or even heard of it? Because you should take a good look at it, and it's idea of the concept of a dragonborn. THAT's where I'm drawing inspiration from, not from the stupid upright man-dragon with a dragon face.


I'm beginning to doubt my sanity more because I brought up this topic in here and less because of the concept.

It seems there might be a mismatch on what you are looking for and what the forum thinks you are looking for.

With your original few posts, it sounded like you were looking for build advice to...
1) create a build with dragon flavor (e.g. dragonborn)
2) a build with some skald flavor and
3) a build that has the ability to contribute in some meaningful way during combat (e.g. "an aggressive fighting style)

Based on follow up posts, you....
1) Don't seem to want dragon flavor (don't want to start with / deal with templates, both of which which are legal in 3.5)
2) Don't seem to care about contributing overmuch in combat (don't care about "Winning the game vs other players")

So I guess the question is, how can we help? As you said, you've been playing for 20 years, so you should have a pretty good grasp on what is fun or not fun for you, and the relative power level of your group, so if you think you'll contribute in your particular group you know best.

What are you looking for? Is it specifically the skald flavor? If so, that is very similar to a bard (in fact I think there is a bard variant named the skald). Can you list the key parts of a skald (e.g. Raging mad? Shapeshifter? bites shields? Sword and shield?), since it seems like you have a clear image in your head of what you want, but we don't quite know what you're looking for to help you find it.

Is there anything that is non-negotiable to keep? Clearly your first level and stats are locked in, but is there anything else that must be kept? Dragonsoul flavor? Can you define that a bit more, which part of that calls to you?

[Fouredged Sword]

I'm aware that TWF splits your damage bonus unevenly between the weapons, but I don't think it's all that bad to be honest. The total bonus is equal to that of a two-handed attack's damage bonus. The difference is in that a two-handed attack has to hit one target, while with two weapons you have a choice to spread out from a "tunnel vision" approach. More often than not, two-hander damage rolls result in unnecessary overkills when you could've landed the remainder on some other target. And having a shield as my off-hand weapon improves my defenses as well.

Not everyone plays the game to win other players in some arbitrary competition. Some do, believe it or not, play the game to immerse themselves with thematic choices. My intention is to play a "viking" with an adaptable and aggressive fighting style. In fact, I've been thinking that I might actually use the shield as a weapon only when I'm raging. Which is not possible all the time, given how few daily uses I have. The Heavy Shield's +2 base AC bonus negates the AC penalty from Rage.

And my intention is not to be the "Tank". I'm more than happy to leave that role to the druid - or even their dog. But I don't mind having a little bit extra AC either.

Besides, let's not forget that I'm more than likely to get my hands on magic items that increase my strength even further, or magic weapons and/or shields. I probably will stick to heavy shield until I can get my hands on a Bashing Light Shield. Magical weapons may also add extra dice to the damage rolls.
I want to circle back around to this because I think you are missing something.

Unless you have bonus damage like sneak attack that applies to every hit it's much better to go with two handed fighting than two weapon fighting.

Let's compare the standard swords with power attack or TWFing
Greatsword - 1d10 (av 5.5) + 1.5* str + 4, -2 to hit
VS
Short Sword x2 - 2d4 (av 5) + 1.5 str, -2 to hit

So base line the damage is the same right? Well, no. The greatsword is already dealing 4.5 more damage per attack. The greatsword is doing that damage not only in a full attack, but with a standard attack where the shortsword would only be doing 1d4+1*str. So right off the bat the two hander is not only doing more damage, but they are doing more damage while mobile and that's a big deal in 3.5 as things will normally outreach your 5ft reach.

So, you are worried about overhitting a weak target? Ok, that's normally not that big of an issue in most games, but it's something that can happen. If you attack a monster AND you kill it AND you have another monster in reach TWFing will allow you to use your offhand attack to swing at that monster instead.

But there is another feat that's even better - cleave. If you attack a monster AND you kill it (more likely because you are hitting for 1d10+4+1.5*str) AND you have another monster in reach you not only get to attack it, but you get to attack it for your full greatsword damage of 1d10+4+1.5*str instead of 1d4+.5str.

And you are going to need to take not only TWF, but all the chain of feats that includes or your secondary attacks are going to not include the offhand attack and still all suffer the -2 to hit from TWFing. So Power attack and cleave are simply mathematically better than TWFing and improved TWFing.

And I would like to open your eyes to the possibility of playing Cleric with 11 wisdom. By level 3 you can afford a +2 wisdom item, allowing you to cast the 2nd level spells you unlock at level 3. That will tide you over until level 4, putting your advancement point into wisdom, bringing you to 14. At wisdom 14 you can cast up to 4th level spells, so you have until 7th level to buy a +4 wisdom item, and that one plus the +1 wisdom you can get from reaching level 8 will give you 17 wisdom, getting you all the way to 7th level spells and 13th level, but by then you can add another point at 12th level and get 8th level spells, so by 15th level you need to have bought a +6 wisdom item. That +6 wisdom item gets you access to 9th level spells and allows you to function just fine as a cleric starting at average wisdom. Your spell DC's are low, but you are going to want to focus mostly on buffs anyway, so save DC does not matter.

[Arkhios]

Let's compare the standard swords with power attack or TWFing
Greatsword - 1d10 (av 5.5) + 1.5* str + 4, -2 to hit
VS
Short Sword x2 - 2d4 (av 5) + 1.5 str, -2 to hit

Which game are you talking about, because in my 3.5 D&D a greatsword deals 2d6 and short swords deal 1d6 each. EDIT: Unless you thought I was going to play that dragonwrought kobold or whatever. Which I won't. Nor can't.

It's also not fair to compare power attack to TWF because they work differently.

TWF splits your focus from one attack into two. I think it's entirely fair that you get a small penalty to your attack bonus for that.

Whether Greatsword is a better option because of Power Attack benefits it more is another thing entirely. But as I said, Power Attack is not a fair comparison for TWF.

Greatsword - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str
VS
Short Sword x2 - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str

This is a baseline comparison for damage. Both options deal same amount of baseline damage (= av. 7 + 1.5 str). Adding Power Attack shifts it clearly for Greatsword's benefit, but again, Power Attack has no place in this comparison unless you're trying to sell power attack for someone who doesn't understand the feat (mind you, I do).

I'd like to point out that I'm not missing anything; I know of the opportunity costs in using TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING instead of a TWO-HANDED WEAPON. That's why I chose to use a shield as my off-hand weapon in the first place, because that's something you can't have with a two-handed weapon: A better baseline AC. Again, I'm also aware that using a heavy shield imposes larger penalty to hit, but it also grants higher AC.

I'm really tired of arguing over this. I'm not a first timer, and I know what I'm doing. I KNOW that two-weapon fighting with sword and board is not the best possible optimal choice. But that's not what I came here for.

I came here to double check if what I'm doing - ESPECIALLY - with the cleric spell slots and Dragon Disciple bonus spells is "sane" considering my ability scores.

[noob]

Which game are you talking about, because in my 3.5 D&D a greatsword deals 2d6 and short swords deal 1d6 each.

It's also not fair to compare power attack to TWF because they work differently.

TWF splits your focus from one attack into two. I think it's entirely fair that you get a small penalty to your attack bonus for that.

Whether Greatsword is a better option because of Power Attack benefits it more is another thing entirely. But as I said, Power Attack is not a fair comparison for TWF.

Greatsword - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str
VS
Short Sword x2 - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str

This is a baseline comparison for damage. Both options deal same amount of baseline damage (= av. 7 + 1.5 str). Adding Power Attack shifts it clearly for Greatsword's benefit, but again, Power Attack has no place in this comparison unless you're trying to sell power attack for someone who doesn't understand the feat (mind you, I do).
the real comparison is

Greatsword - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str , to hit = maximum value and you can deliver it as a simple action
VS
Short Sword x2 - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str and higher odds of missing due to lowered chance to hit and you need a full round action to do that.

The difference is huge especially since you spent a feat to do the latter but not for doing the former.
At higher levels the more feats you spend in order to stay competitive.
ex: maximum number of iteratives with greatsword: 4 with a full round attack for a total of 8d6 + 6 str if all hits
Maximum number of iteratives with 2 short swords: 8 and you need 4 feats for that including one needing 25 dex and that exists only in complete warrior and you still have a penalty to the chance to hit.(and you spend a full round attack)
all that for a total of 8d6 + 6 str if all hits which is less likely.

If you do not get modifiers other than strength and weapon modifiers you fall behind when using two weapon fighting and you need to spend 4 feats which is expensive and that was by comparing to a person using 0 feats.

So the true force of two weapon fighting is when you apply large flat modifiers to your attacks such as sneak attack, eldricht blade, dragonfire inspiration and the like none of which are included in your build.

[Arkhios]

the real comparison is

Greatsword - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str , to hit = maximum value and you can deliver it as a simple action
VS
Short Sword x2 - 2d6 (av. 7) + 1.5 str and half of it have higher odds of missing due to lowered chance to hit and you need a full round action to do that.

The difference is huge especially since you spent a feat to do the latter but not for doing the former.

For crying out loud. I KNOW it's not exactly same. I know half of it have higher odds of missing, but just the same, more attacks = more chances to hit. BUT, ignoring the chances to hit, both have exactly same potential damage output. It's an opportunity cost I'm perfectly aware of and willing to take.

If you're so keen about using a two-hander over TWF, then go ahead, do it yourself. Don't try to force others do everything your way.

[noob]

For crying out loud. I KNOW it's not exactly same. I know half of it have higher odds of missing, but just the same, more attacks = more chances to hit. BUT, ignoring the chances to hit, both have exactly same potential damage output. It's an opportunity cost I'm perfectly aware of and willing to take.

If you're so keen about using a two-hander over TWF, then go ahead, do it yourself. Don't try to force others do everything your way.

All I am saying is that you should get one of the option that actually makes twf better(those options exists) or you are just spending feats and extra gold for doing the same thing less efficiently and less reliably.
And I was not even factoring the worse critical strikes (short swords deals critical strikes less often)
The objective of the fighting styles was for them to be used differently not to be used the same way: two weapon fighting is meant to be used with effects that boosts attacks with high flat values and to be a less mobile style of play so if you intend to use two weapon fighting and ignore the fact it should be used differently(with different builds) then you will lag behind those who does not do this kind of decisions such as the animal companion of the druid, the animal companion of the ranger and the ranger itself (because the ranger will get cool spells at high level unlike you).

[DrMartin]

[...] Feats, Spells, and psionic (prestige-)classes without manifester levels from XPH [partially my own fault, since my previous Charater showed our DM how ridiculously broken Psionic Powers really are in 3.5],



Might I ask, what did you do?




[...] and Player Companion materials up to Second Darkness and Elves of Golarion (in their chronological releasd order)



Are there other sources here? From a list I´ve found those are the first two releases in the Companion series.

Are you using traits?




My build at 1st level is as follows:

Human Barbarian 1
Skill Ranks: Decipher Script 1, Know. (Arcana) 1, Know. (History) 1, Know. (Religion) 1, Perform (Sing) 2, Profession (sailor) 1, Sense Motive 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 2
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash
Character Concept is more or less an Ulfen Skald (since the class doesn't exist yet in our timeline I try to re-create it thematically).

...and my plan is to, eventually, have Barbarian 4/Cleric (Holy Warrior variant) 1/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple 10, and stats with relevant increases:
Str 24, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 12, stacking all of the extra spell slots gained from Dragon Disciple as 1st level cleric spell slots.



I honestly cannot parse the cleric part, concept-wise. I get it that it gives you BAB and a few nicer spells (and turn undead, and some of feats in deities and demigods can be fueled by that, if you manage to boost your charisma somehow), but it feels like diluting the core idea of the skald.

I don't think you are out of your mind, but you are setting yourself up for not very rewarding choices, at least in the classical sense. You'll end up with a character with quite an extensive toolkit of abilities though, and that can always have its upside at the table.

Is talking to your GM about letting you play a bloodrager sans bloodline (to align to 3.5 class design) completely out of the question?

[Darg]

Get power attack, no ifs ands or buts.

Don't bother with improved two weapon fighting as you can get Gloves of the balanced hands to give you the benefit. Unless the MIC isn't available, but it isn't much of a problem.

I would personally delay DD by one level and give up the level of cleric to take 2 levels fighter and get weapon focus spiked armor and spiked shield to get the blood-spiked charger feat. At level 9 get the multi-attack feat. Level 12 is entangling breath or leap attack. Remember, if you get to 10 levels DD your breath weapon is usable 2/day; one from class and the other from being half dragon.

Blood-spiked charger lets you apply double your strength bonus as a bonus to your damage roll and lets you attack with both spiked weapons applying the bonus to both as a charge attack.

You can use a heavy shield as your main hand and it can be wielded two-handed for power attack for standard attacks. Your natural attacks receive the bonus from power attack

Just my 2 cents because you are stuck with what you have, I don't know much pathfinder, and I don't think everything has to be about high optimization

[noob]

Get power attack, no ifs ands or buts.

Don't bother with improved two weapon fighting as you can get Gloves of the balanced hands to give you the benefit. Unless the MIC isn't available, but it isn't much of a problem.

I would personally delay DD by one level and give up the level of cleric to take 2 levels fighter and get weapon focus spiked armor and spiked shield to get the blood-spiked charger feat. At level 9 get the multi-attack feat. Level 12 is entangling breath or leap attack. Remember, if you get to 10 levels DD your breath weapon is usable 2/day; one from class and the other from being half dragon.

Blood-spiked charger lets you apply double your strength bonus as a bonus to your damage roll and lets you attack with both spiked weapons applying the bonus to both as a charge attack.

You can use a heavy shield as your main hand and it can be wielded two-handed for power attack for standard attacks. Your natural attacks receive the bonus from power attack

Just my 2 cents because you are stuck with what you have, I don't know much pathfinder, and I don't think everything has to be about high optimization

it is not pathfinder it is 3.5 but he have some pre "pathfinder as its own system" pathfinder content

[DrMartin]

Get power attack, no ifs ands or buts.

Don't bother with improved two weapon fighting as you can get Gloves of the balanced hands to give you the benefit. Unless the MIC isn't available, but it isn't much of a problem.

I would personally delay DD by one level and give up the level of cleric to take 2 levels fighter and get weapon focus spiked armor and spiked shield to get the blood-spiked charger feat. At level 9 get the multi-attack feat. Level 12 is entangling breath or leap attack. Remember, if you get to 10 levels DD your breath weapon is usable 2/day; one from class and the other from being half dragon.

Blood-spiked charger lets you apply double your strength bonus as a bonus to your damage roll and lets you attack with both spiked weapons applying the bonus to both as a charge attack.

You can use a heavy shield as your main hand and it can be wielded two-handed for power attack for standard attacks. Your natural attacks receive the bonus from power attack

Just my 2 cents because you are stuck with what you have, I don't know much pathfinder, and I don't think everything has to be about high optimization

check the sources, among all these feats the only one that OP has access to is power attack

[Arkhios]

Might I ask, what did you do?
Used the Powers as Written.
Inertial Armor augmented to grant +11 armor bonus.
Defensive Precognition for +5 insight bonus to AC and all saves as often as possible.
Both Energy Missile and Energy Stun with electricity with DC's bordering close to 30 due to how the DC scales for those particular powers.
But I guess the last straw was when I used targeted Dispel Psionics on previous campaign's BBEG to strip off all her buffs with a whopping total bonus of +35 (we use/-d Psionics-Magic Transparency).


Are there other sources here? From a list I´ve found those are the first two releases in the Companion series.
I might be mistaken about whether they're part of Companion series, but at least Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer and Gods & Magic are available as well.


Are you using traits?

We are. All the better Campaign Traits were taken, so I decided to go with Researching the Blot (which lets me identify all magic items with spellcraft, in the same manner as potions), and took Classically Schooled as my other trait, which makes Spellcraft a class skill for me always, and gives a +1 trait bonus on top. Plus, I find it's kinda hilarious that as a barbarian, my highest skill bonus is Spellcraft at +7 (fluffing the trait's premise so that my character received training from an elderly blind skald (a.k.a. bard), which explains reasonably enough why my character can't read or write at the moment; and also why he has a rank in decipher script 😂).
We get only two, and one of them must be a campaign trait, while the other must be from the lists in Second Darkness Player's Guide (or Elves of Golarion, if you're an elf, a half-elf, or Adopted by elves).


I honestly cannot parse the cleric part, concept-wise. I get it that it gives you BAB and a few nicer spells (and turn undead, and some of feats in deities and demigods can be fueled by that, if you manage to boost your charisma somehow), but it feels like diluting the core idea of the skald.

I don't think you are out of your mind, but you are setting yourself up for not very rewarding choices, at least in the classical sense. You'll end up with a character with quite an extensive toolkit of abilities though, and that can always have its upside at the table.

Honestly, cleric part was a stupid idea anyway. I petitioned my DM so that I could swap Wis 11 and Cha 10 around, and drop the cleric level altogether. Might as well take another level in bard, and use Inspire Courage only when I'm raging, in which case two uses of bardic music/day would be enough, if I have only two uses of rage/day. Pathfinder's Skald was different from bard in that they were able to incite rage in allies with bardic music -esque feature.

To be honest, I actually might take bard to 4th level after all, learn the Rage spell, and take Harmonic Spell feat (2 uses of bardic music lets me cast a spell (e.g. Rage) and start a bardic music effect with one action), to better emulate the Skald's Incite Rage ability. With the exception that I'd use my own Rage bonuses.


Is talking to your GM about letting you play a bloodrager sans bloodline (to align to 3.5 class design) completely out of the question?

Alas, yes. If DM would let me play a class, even a diluted one, from Pathfinder, he'd have to allow similar arrangement to everyone else, and that's a can of worms he's not willing to open. We're kind of reminiscing pre-pathfinder Golarion (the so called Pathfinder Chronicles -era) and playing the Adventure Paths in their release order, with the content that was available at that time, in 2007-2008.

[DrMartin]

Used the Powers as Written.

:smallconfused: sorry, but I call shenanigans



Inertial Armor augmented to grant +11 armor bonus.
Defensive Precognition for +5 insight bonus to AC and all saves as often as possible.
Both Energy Missile and Energy Stun with electricity with DC's bordering close to 30 due to how the DC scales for those particular powers.


I assume you know that you cannot spend more power points on a single casting than your manifester level - so this is all stuff you need quite a high level to be able to augment to, in the 14-15 range - a tad earlier with overchannel - and at that level they are for sure good powers, but game breaking? The energy things are, imho, clearly a typo and an easily fixed one, as every other similar powers scales the DC at a 1:2 rate. I mean at level 15 the wizard has polymorph any object and limited wish, I´d argue those are worse.



But I guess the last straw was when I used targeted Dispel Psionics on previous campaign's BBEG to strip off all her buffs with a whopping total bonus of +35 (we use/-d Psionics-Magic Transparency).


how did you do this, when the power is explicitly capped at a +20 bonus?

Well I would take the campaign setting bard variant which gives you an extra use of bardic music, while limiting you to one kind of performance.

Are you using retraining rules? because that level of barbarian is not doing very much for you I think. Rage is very few times per day, and prevents you from using other abilities from your bard levels.
(I´m not sure on the RAW on this, but being prevented from using combat expertise while raging could affect using feat with it as a prerequisite too, like improved trip?)

I think Ranger would work better, while still fitting the ravaging viking character type.

You have good dexterity, so maybe combat reflexes and hold the line could work for you? use those bard skill points to taunt the enemies into charging you. Knockdown as already suggested is also a really good feat, as soon as you get that 15 strength.

[Doctor Despair]

:smallconfused: sorry, but I call shenanigans



I assume you know that you cannot spend more power points on a single casting than your manifester level - so this is all stuff you need quite a high level to be able to augment to, in the 14-15 range - a tad earlier with overchannel - and at that level they are for sure good powers, but game breaking? The energy things are, imho, clearly a typo and an easily fixed one, as every other similar powers scales the DC at a 1:2 rate. I mean at level 15 the wizard has polymorph any object and limited wish, I´d argue those are worse.



how did you do this, when the power is explicitly capped at a +20 bonus?

Are you using retraining rules? because that level of barbarian is not doing very much for you I think. Rage is very few times per day, and prevents you from using other abilities from your bard levels.

Iirc doing class levels requires a rebuild, not retraining. Rebuilding requires an in-game quest over one or more sessions and is subject to DM fiat; if he isn't allowed to apply a template from the core Monster Manual, I doubt he'll be allowed to rebuild.

[DrMartin]

true :smallfrown: , I must have thought of PF rules.

[Arkhios]

One more thing, I forgot to mention that we are bound to maintain regional flavor, and that particular bard variant requires education at a renowned academy of arts, closest of which is half a continent away from Northwestern Varisia, and so it's not allowed (I know this because I asked about it before). Ulfen, and everything related to them, are allowed because the adventure path specifically mentions that ulfen vikings and traders frequently visit Riddleport.

As for Ranger, since we already have a ranger, I would prefer not to go ranger as well.

[Yahzi Coyote]

When I started my campaign, the players chose a name and their father's profession - from the list of farmer, miner, shepherd, lumberjack, or fisherman.

They got a skill point in that profession, a stat of 12 in one attribute based on the profession, and a choice between a sack, three torches, or a knife.

And then we started playing.

That was two years ago. I realize that creating weird characters is fun, but sometimes it's nice to just go where the dice takes ya.