Prepared caster Bard.

[noob]

If I wanted to make the bard use the same spell preparation system as a cleric or a wizard would it unbalance the game?
Which class features would need to be changed?
It is just because I was thinking about symmetry and charisma is the only casting characteristic that does not have both prepared casters and spontaneous casters and it would make most sense for the bards to be prepared casters.

[Old Harry MTX]

I had in mind to open the exact same topic! It should be tested, but maybe it would be enough to be able to prepare a number of spells equal to your Charisma modifier + HALF your Bard level (minimum of one spell). This way you have a progression comparable to that of the Sorcerer's spells known.

I had also thought of an alternative solution, making a Bard with spontaneous cast, but a spell progression reduced to 2/3, like this one:


Lvl1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th
12------
23------
33------
442-----
543-----
643-----
7432----
8433----
9433----
104331---
114332---
124332---
1343331--
1443332--
1543332--
16433321-
17433321-
18433321-
194333211
204333211


which would also be easy to multiclass considering an advancement in the Spell Slots per Spell Level Table for each level except multiples of 3.

[noob]

I had in mind to open the exact same topic! It should be tested, but maybe it would be enough to be able to prepare a number of spells equal to your Charisma modifier + HALF your Bard level (minimum of one spell). This way you have a progression comparable to that of the Sorcerer's spells known.

I had also thought of an alternative solution, making a Bard with spontaneous cast, but a spell progression reduced to 2/3, like this one:


Lvl1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th
12------
23------
33------
442-----
543-----
643-----
7432----
8433----
9433----
104331---
114332---
124332---
1343331--
1443332--
1543332--
16433321-
17433321-
18433321-
194333211
204333211


which would also be easy to multiclass considering an advancement in the Spell Slots per Spell Level Table for each level except multiples of 3.

Why would the spell reduction be needed?
Is prepared casting that much more powerful?
If yes should not sorcerers get spells up to level 12 due to them mostly being "wizard but spontaneous"?
My idea was keeping the bards at the same power while giving them prepared spells and I did think it would at most need the change of some of the class features but reducing spell progression seems overkill(if spontaneous was really that much worse then sorcerer should get level 12 spells).

[Old Harry MTX]

Why would the spell reduction be needed?
Is prepared casting that much more powerful?
If yes should not sorcerers get spells up to level 12 due to them mostly being "wizard but spontaneous"?
My idea was keeping the bards at the same power while giving them prepared spells and I did think it would at most need the change of some of the class features but reducing spell progression seems overkill(if spontaneous was really that much worse then sorcerer should get level 12 spells).

Oh, that's just a possibility. However, consider that a Cleric or a Wizard can almost certainly prepare at level 20th at least 5 + 20 = 25 spells, a Bard, with Magical Secrets, can get to know 28... And despite this, due of the Magical Secrets, the Bard is considered by many the strongest caster class in the 5e.

[noob]

Oh, that's just a possibility. However, consider that a Cleric or a Wizard can almost certainly prepare at level 20th at least 5 + 20 = 25 spells, a Bard, with Magical Secrets, can get to know 28... And despite this, due of the Magical Secrets, the Bard is considered by many the strongest caster class in the 5e.
So maybe the problem is not the casting progression but rather handpicking too many good spells?
Maybe remove magical secrets from the obligatory class features of bard(and keep it only for the subclass that granted extra magical secrets) after making it be prepared? (we could replace it by another cool thing maybe a new song or whatever)
It would make the bard be in line with druids and clerics.

[Old Harry MTX]

So maybe the problem is not the casting progression but rather handpicking too many good spells?
Maybe remove magical secrets from the obligatory class features of bard(and keep it only for the subclass that granted extra magical secrets) after making it be prepared? (we could replace it by another cool thing maybe a new song or whatever)
It would make the bard be in line with druids and clerics.

Probably yes, but on the other hand Magical Secrets is a feature very characteristic and flavorful, which goes well with a versatile class like the Bard (see Factotum and Expertise)... I think it would be a shame for many to give it up.

[LibraryOgre]

A long-time fan of the 2e bard (which we have not really seen again), I considered something like that... a college that, upon assumption, turned you into a wizard-style caster, possibly using the wizard spell list, plus a few low-level bard spells.

The idea went something like this (I never fleshed it out). We'll call it College of Arcana, because I don't think that's taken, yet.

At 3rd level, you become a wizard-style, spellbook, caster. Your spellbook consists of your bard spells to date, plus one spell from either the Bard or Wizard spell list. Your spell list is both Bard and Wizard, and you can add them to your spell book if you can find copies. You can only add Bard spells to your spellbook at level up, or if you find another bard of the College of Arcana's spellbook (wizards cannot use bard spells, even from the spellbook of a CoA bard).

I wasn't too clear about other levelling abilities, but I think access to wizard spells is a pretty potent benefit.

[Old Harry MTX]

A long-time fan of the 2e bard (which we have not really seen again), I considered something like that... a college that, upon assumption, turned you into a wizard-style caster, possibly using the wizard spell list, plus a few low-level bard spells.

The idea went something like this (I never fleshed it out). We'll call it College of Arcana, because I don't think that's taken, yet.

At 3rd level, you become a wizard-style, spellbook, caster. Your spellbook consists of your bard spells to date, plus one spell from either the Bard or Wizard spell list. Your spell list is both Bard and Wizard, and you can add them to your spell book if you can find copies. You can only add Bard spells to your spellbook at level up, or if you find another bard of the College of Arcana's spellbook (wizards cannot use bard spells, even from the spellbook of a CoA bard).

I wasn't too clear about other levelling abilities, but I think access to wizard spells is a pretty potent benefit.

There's a thing I didn't get, in your case, does the Bard continue to have to prepare each spell slots or prepare a spell list like the wizard?

[noob]

Maybe the bard gets to prepare spells from all of their list each day but in exchange they get to add only one spell per magical secret?
This way you still have magical secrets but not megatons of spells from it?
Or make magical secrets work like the extra spell feat in dnd 3.5: it gives you spells at least one level lower than the higest level of spell you can cast.

[LibraryOgre]

There's a thing I didn't get, in your case, does the Bard continue to have to prepare each spell slots or prepare a spell list like the wizard?

Prepare like a wizard.

[Old Harry MTX]

Prepare like a wizard.

So basically you give to the Bard a spellbook, access to the wizard spell list, and the ability to prepare a list of spells instead of each single spellslots, but I assume that the sub-class won't give any other features other than ones of pure flavor to balance it all out, right?

[noob]

So basically you give to the Bard a spellbook, access to the wizard spell list, and the ability to prepare a list of spells instead of each single spellslots, but I assume that the sub-class won't give any other features other than ones of pure flavor to balance it all out, right?

When have a bard subclass ever been balanced?
As long as it does not overshadows wizards it is fine.

[LibraryOgre]

So basically you give to the Bard a spellbook, access to the wizard spell list, and the ability to prepare a list of spells instead of each single spellslots, but I assume that the sub-class won't give any other features other than ones of pure flavor to balance it all out, right?

Not sure; like I said, I never sat down to develop it, just sketch it out in my mind.

As I see it, the sketch I have (Bard spells for level 1, Wizard spells and a few bard spells thereafter) does not make this bard substantially different than a subclass which grants a few extra spells which can be prepared (so, even less flexible than a cleric domain, which grants about the same number of spells, but makes them always prepared).

I'll see if I can sketch it out a bit more thoroughly later today, maybe with a sample character

EDIT:

College of Arcana
The college of Arcana are different from the other Bards, and broke off from the College of Lore about three score years ago. While the College of Lore focuses on a breadth of knowledge, the College of Arcana focuses exclusively on the study of magic. In that study, they learn the basic secrets of wizardly magic; not the indepth secrets of the wizard schools, but enough that they begin to keep a spellbook and prepare spells like a wizard, in addition to some access to bard magic.

3rd: Wizard Magic
At 3rd level, the College of Arcana bard switches their style of casting to that of a Wizard; they maintain a spellbook and prepare spells each morning. They use Intelligence as their casting attribute, are able to cast any of their prepared spells using any appropriate slots, and so on; all as outlined under "Spellcasting" in the Wizard class description, and the Your Spellbook sidebar, on page 114 of the Player's Handbook (save "Learning Spells of 1st level and higher"; they receive only 1 spell upon gaining a level, not 2). Furthermore, they may now learn all wizard spells as wizard spells. Their initial spellbook contains all of their 1st level Bard spells, as well as a 2nd level spell from either the Wizard or Bard spell list. They may no longer cast spells as Bards; Charisma is no longer their casting attribute, and they must prepare spells, not cast spontaneously. They do retain Bardic ritual casting, but may not longer use musical instruments as arcane foci.

As they learned Bardic Magic first, they do have the bonus that all 5 of the bard spells they learned at 1st and 2nd level are prepared at all times. However, as they advance in levels, they only gain one spell per level (unless they gain access to a spellbook containing that spell), from either the Bard or Wizard lists, and all of these spells must be prepared. They may not learn additional Bard spells except through level gain or by finding them in the spellbook of another bard of the College of Arcana. Wizards are not able to cast these Bard spells (unless they are also Wizard spells).

3rd: Additional Expertise
At 3rd level, College of Arcana bards receive Expertise in Arcana, in addition to the Expertise that all bards gain at 3rd level.

6th: School Secrets
At 6th level, the College of Arcana begins to unravel some of the secrets of Wizardly traditions; they may choose any one power granted to a Wizardly tradition at 2nd level. For example, a bard who favors abjurations may choose either Abjuration Savant or Arcane Ward (p. 115), but not both.

14th level: Further School Secrets
At 14th level, the College of Arcana unravels some further secrets of Wizard traditions. They may again choose any one power granted to a Wizardly tradition at 2nd level; this need not be from the same school as the secret granted at 6th level, but it cannot be the same secret; they cannot choose Abjuration Savant twice to reduce the costs to one quarter, nor Arcane Ward twice to create two wards, or a double-strength ward, when casting Abjurations.

(Ok, this is rough, and relies heavily on making them jackleg wizards... flexible, but not very deep)