Melee Sorcerer

[RSP]

So I’m planning on playing a melee Sorcerer build I’ve been kicking around for our next campaign. This isn’t for optimization, just curious if someone’s tried something similar and how it played.

Thinking straight DS Sorcerer (already DM-approved for spell point variant for Sorc class only).

We’re going 1-20 (Waterdeep/Mad Mage with plenty of homebrew added in, I’m sure).

I love gishes but have noticed they tend not to hold up on the frontline around the start of tier 3 - I’m hoping this build can hold on through 20, though. We roll for stats (hasn’t happened yet) and will prioritize Dex>Con>Cha.

Basic plan is go Extended and Quicken for metamagics at 3. Standard combat plan will be GFB/BB with SB. Quicken if needing action to Dodge or something else (Cure Wounds/Lesser Res/See Invis). Can pick up Spiritual Weapon for added Attack but probably not necessary. Likewise, optional Spiritual Guardians if deemed a better way to deal with mobs.

Extended Metamagic to get Mage Armor, (highest level slot pre 8-hour LR) Aid, and eventually Death Ward for “free” through a LR. Aid and DW, obviously, will help staying alive (and help other PCs). (Likewise, free Darkvision if I choose to go Vhuman, though that’s just an option at this point.)

Spell Points will mean plenty of slots for AE and Shield to last through the day.

We have 7 players, and we tend to have more mobs then one or two BBEG encounters, and they tend to be complex encounters; it’s not uncommon that our combats go 10+ rounds (so for bigger battles Extended SB will be worth it, particularly if upcasted).

Thoughts? My main worry is staying power on the frontline, but I think the combo of defensive spells, recovery spells as BAs (so still BB to be sticky), and “free” upcasted Aid with DW will do the trick. SB+BB should be okay damage (or even weapon+BB if needing to conserve SPs).

Let me know if I’ve missed anything. (And no spoilers please)

(Side note: though not what I was going for, this appears to be a fantastic Windrunner Surgebinder build as well. Can cast Fly until 14 when they get at-will, Conc-less flight, use SB to “summon” their Shardblades, self heal, etc.)

[Garfunion]

Are you allowed to take feats for the Eberron player’s guide (Aberrant Dragonmark)?

I’ve been working on a constitution based sorcerer using shocking grasp cantrip (shocking fists).

[Nhorianscum]

So I’m planning on playing a melee Sorcerer build I’ve been kicking around for our next campaign. This isn’t for optimization, just curious if someone’s tried something similar and how it played.

Thinking straight DS Sorcerer (already DM-approved for spell point variant for Sorc class only).

We’re going 1-20 (Waterdeep/Mad Mage with plenty of homebrew added in, I’m sure).

I love gishes but have noticed they tend not to hold up on the frontline around the start of tier 3 - I’m hoping this build can hold on through 20, though. We roll for stats (hasn’t happened yet) and will prioritize Dex>Con>Cha.

Basic plan is go Extended and Quicken for metamagics at 3. Standard combat plan will be GFB/BB with SB. Quicken if needing action to Dodge or something else (Cure Wounds/Lesser Res/See Invis). Can pick up Spiritual Weapon for added Attack but probably not necessary. Likewise, optional Spiritual Guardians if deemed a better way to deal with mobs.

Extended Metamagic to get Mage Armor, (highest level slot pre 8-hour LR) Aid, and eventually Death Ward for “free” through a LR. Aid and DW, obviously, will help staying alive (and help other PCs). (Likewise, free Darkvision if I choose to go Vhuman, though that’s just an option at this point.)

Spell Points will mean plenty of slots for AE and Shield to last through the day.

We have 7 players, and we tend to have more mobs then one or two BBEG encounters, and they tend to be complex encounters; it’s not uncommon that our combats go 10+ rounds (so for bigger battles Extended SB will be worth it, particularly if upcasted).

Thoughts? My main worry is staying power on the frontline, but I think the combo of defensive spells, recovery spells as BAs (so still BB to be sticky), and “free” upcasted Aid with DW will do the trick. SB+BB should be okay damage (or even weapon+BB if needing to conserve SPs).

Let me know if I’ve missed anything. (And no spoilers please)

(Side note: though not what I was going for, this appears to be a fantastic Windrunner Surgebinder build as well. Can cast Fly until 14 when they get at-will, Conc-less flight, use SB to “summon” their Shardblades, self heal, etc.)

DS with metamagic adept/reswis/cha+4 and a dip in cleric or hexblade is just really abusive.

It's not really a "mele" build (though it does stellar frontlining with SG) as it's... just sorta stellar at everything.

Edit: Oh, spell points, on a divine soul... yeah enjoy playing a broken-in-half-demigod.

[RogueJK]

Can pick up Spiritual Weapon for added Attack but probably not necessary.

I'd rethink this. What else are you planning to use your Bonus Action for? You mentioned the occasional Quickened spell, but that won't be all that often, so you're leaving your BA unused quite a bit.

Similarly, what are you planning to use your Reaction for? Just the Shield spell, and the occasional Absorb Elements? That'll end up burning spells at a high rate, for a frontliner that will be getting hit somewhat often. Since you're going to be a DEX-based character, any chance you could squeeze in the Defensive Duelist feat? Maybe as a Variant Human? That could give you something to do regularly with your Reaction that doesn't use Spell Slots. You could even reflavor it as something like a lesser arcane forcefield, which then flares into full force when the actual Shield spell is cast.

[RSP]

Are you allowed to take feats for the Eberron player’s guide (Aberrant Dragonmark)?

I’ve been working on a constitution based sorcerer using shocking grasp cantrip (shocking fists).

Nothing from Eberron. Using XgtE, MToF, and SCAG. Possibly TCoE, depending on what DM thinks of it.

[Nhorianscum]

I'd rethink this. What else are you planning to use your Bonus Action for? You mentioned the occasional Quickened spell, but that won't be all that often, so you're leaving your BA unused quite a bit.

Similar, what are you planning to use your Reaction for? Just the Shield spell, and the occasional Absorb Elements? That'll end up burning spells at a high rate, for a frontliner that will be getting hit somewhat often. Since you're going to be a DEX-based melee build anyway, any chance you could squeeze in the Defensive Duelist feat? Maybe as a Variant Human? That could give you something to do regularly with your Reaction that doesn't use Spell Slots. You could even reflavor it as something like a lesser Arcane Shield, which then flares into full force when the actual Shield spell is cast.

He's on spell points. Quicken can be spammed.

[RSP]

I'd rethink this. What else are you planning to use your Bonus Action for? You mentioned the occasional Quickened spell, but that won't be all that often, so you're leaving your BA unused quite a bit.

Similarly, what are you planning to use your Reaction for? Just the Shield spell, and the occasional Absorb Elements? That'll end up burning spells at a high rate, for a frontliner that will be getting hit somewhat often. Since you're going to be a DEX-based character, any chance you could squeeze in the Defensive Duelist feat? Maybe as a Variant Human? That could give you something to do regularly with your Reaction that doesn't use Spell Slots. You could even reflavor it as something like a lesser arcane forcefield, which then flares into full force when the actual Shield spell is cast.

Not overly concerned about using a consistent Reaction; more concerned with mitigating damage. Also, I’m not concerned about damage output in tier 3; I’m concerned about surviving as a frontliner in tier 3. SW is a cheaper way to get added damage as a BA, versus Quicken, but it’ll depend how high my Cha gets whether it’s worthwhile or not.

[DracoKnight]

So I played a melee sorcerer for several months. Well, I didn't set out to play one, so this probably isn't the most optimized thing you'll see in your responses. It was more, we needed a healer, but my Cleric had just wandered into the void and I didn't want to play another cleric, so I rolled up a Divine Soul. He ended up going into melee because nobody else in the party was melee and we needed someone who could help get our Rogue Sneak Attack -- my aforementioned Cleric had also assisted with that.

He did eventually die (at 5th level), but that was due to unrelated story reasons that had nothing to do with him going into melee. He actually functioned just fine as a single-class Sorcerer in melee.

He was a Tiefling; bog-standard, from the PHB tiefling.

Divine Soul (Chaos).

My Metamagics were:
- Twinned
- Subtle

I ended up using Subtle more than Twin, because it was a fairly stealthy party. I grabbed Twinned for Twin Healing Word, but ultimately I wish I'd gone for Quicken, because the number of times I needed to Twin Healing Word was less than 3, because I was able to pick up Mass Healing Word pretty shortly after I started playing him.

Cantrips:
- Booming Blade (4th level)
- Chill Touch (1st level)
- Guidance (1st level)
- Message (1st level)
- Minor Illusion (1st level)
- Thaumaturgy (Infernal Legacy)

Spells:
- 1st

- Bane (Divine Soul Chaos bonus spell)
- Healing Word
- Mage Armor
- 2nd

- Darkness (Infernal Legacy)
- Hellish Rebuke (Infernal Legacy)
- Invisibility
- Misty Step
- Shadow Blade
- 3rd

- Mass Healing Word

In combat, my first round was generally casting Shadow Blade if I could get into melee, or Twinning a Chill Touch if I couldn't. Once I could get into melee, it was Booming Blade + Shadow Blade for days. The lack of armor was worrying, but at the same time, with Mage Armor, I had a 17 AC, which wasn't too bad; only 1 point behind my Cleric.

All in all, it was a lot of fun. I'm glad I played the character and defied the conventional wisdom that if you wanna play a melee Sorc you gotta be multiclassed or a Stone Sorcerer. Honestly this was one of my favorite characters I've ever played, and I would love to play him again someday.

[RSP]

So I played a melee sorcerer for several months. Well, I didn't set out to play one, so this probably isn't the most optimized thing you'll see in your responses. It was more, we needed a healer, but my Cleric had just wandered into the void and I didn't want to play another cleric, so I rolled up a Divine Soul. He ended up going into melee because nobody else in the party was melee and we needed someone who could help get our Rogue Sneak Attack -- my aforementioned Cleric had also assisted with that.

He did eventually die (at 5th level), but that was due to unrelated story reasons that had nothing to do with him going into melee. He actually functioned just fine as a single-class Sorcerer in melee.

He was a Tiefling; bog-standard, from the PHB tiefling.

Divine Soul (Chaos).

My Metamagics were:
- Twinned
- Subtle

I ended up using Subtle more than Twin, because it was a fairly stealthy party. I grabbed Twinned for Twin Healing Word, but ultimately I wish I'd gone for Quicken, because the number of times I needed to Twin Healing Word was less than 3, because I was able to pick up Mass Healing Word pretty shortly after I started playing him.

Cantrips:
- Booming Blade (4th level)
- Chill Touch (1st level)
- Guidance (1st level)
- Message (1st level)
- Minor Illusion (1st level)
- Thaumaturgy (Infernal Legacy)

Spells:
- 1st

- Bane (Divine Soul Chaos bonus spell)
- Healing Word
- Mage Armor
- 2nd

- Darkness (Infernal Legacy)
- Hellish Rebuke (Infernal Legacy)
- Invisibility
- Misty Step
- Shadow Blade
- 3rd

- Mass Healing Word

In combat, my first round was generally casting Shadow Blade if I could get into melee, or Twinning a Chill Touch if I couldn't. Once I could get into melee, it was Booming Blade + Shadow Blade for days. The lack of armor was worrying, but at the same time, with Mage Armor, I had a 17 AC, which wasn't too bad; only 1 point behind my Cleric.

All in all, it was a lot of fun. I'm glad I played the character and defied the conventional wisdom that if you wanna play a melee Sorc you gotta be multiclassed or a Stone Sorcerer. Honestly this was one of my favorite characters I've ever played, and I would love to play him again someday.

Appreciate the post! I’m going for RP/fun on this over optimization, so I’m glad there’s precedent.

I’m really trying to lean into non-Conc spells, other than SB. My list would be something like:

1st
Shield
Mage Armor
Cure Wounds

Gaining on levels:
SB
Aid
AE
Lesser Res
Prot from Poison
Death Ward
SW
Greater Restoration

Something like that. Might take SW earlier, might take Prot from Evil and Good or See Invis instead.

[RSP]

He's on spell points. Quicken can be spammed.

Just to clarify, Spell Points =/= Sorcery Points. They can still be transferred using slots to make Sorcery Points at the same rate Flexible Casting allows.

[Mork]

Some good advice here. I would like to add that a level dip could also be a great help. You're not going to have a lot of HP. So some AC will be nice.
1 lvl hexblade gives you medium armour and lets you hit with CHA
2 lvls palladin gives you heavy armour(or medium if you want CON saves) a fighting style and smite, giving you some great burst damage if you want it. (and lvl 1 palladin spells for some flexibility)
1 lvl cleric for heavy armour proficiency and some good lvl 1 spells (cure/heaing word, bless and general flexibility). Forge domain for even more AC, life for some healing if needed, tempest for more damage or war to make sure your cantrips hit if needed.

Half plate, dex 14, and shield is AC 19, which is nothing scoff at. Also magical shields and armour can get you even safer.

I'm playing a palladin2/sorcererX right now and its great fun. But I'm playin odysee of the dragonlords, which has a sorcerer subclass which gives you CHA to hit already. And I have thunderous smite, shield of faith and huntermark on a short rest recharge (no spell slots) from my race (nympf) and the sorcerer subclass. So it doesn't translate directly. But it's great fun to have AC 26 (breastplate, dex, shield, defensive fighting style, shield of faith + shield spell) at lvl 3 when I want to :)

[Throne12]

So I’m planning on playing a melee Sorcerer build I’ve been kicking around for our next campaign. This isn’t for optimization, just curious if someone’s tried something similar and how it played.

Thinking straight DS Sorcerer (already DM-approved for spell point variant for Sorc class only).

We’re going 1-20 (Waterdeep/Mad Mage with plenty of homebrew added in, I’m sure).

I love gishes but have noticed they tend not to hold up on the frontline around the start of tier 3 - I’m hoping this build can hold on through 20, though. We roll for stats (hasn’t happened yet) and will prioritize Dex>Con>Cha.

Basic plan is go Extended and Quicken for metamagics at 3. Standard combat plan will be GFB/BB with SB. Quicken if needing action to Dodge or something else (Cure Wounds/Lesser Res/See Invis). Can pick up Spiritual Weapon for added Attack but probably not necessary. Likewise, optional Spiritual Guardians if deemed a better way to deal with mobs.

Extended Metamagic to get Mage Armor, (highest level slot pre 8-hour LR) Aid, and eventually Death Ward for “free” through a LR. Aid and DW, obviously, will help staying alive (and help other PCs). (Likewise, free Darkvision if I choose to go Vhuman, though that’s just an option at this point.)

Spell Points will mean plenty of slots for AE and Shield to last through the day.

We have 7 players, and we tend to have more mobs then one or two BBEG encounters, and they tend to be complex encounters; it’s not uncommon that our combats go 10+ rounds (so for bigger battles Extended SB will be worth it, particularly if upcasted).

Thoughts? My main worry is staying power on the frontline, but I think the combo of defensive spells, recovery spells as BAs (so still BB to be sticky), and “free” upcasted Aid with DW will do the trick. SB+BB should be okay damage (or even weapon+BB if needing to conserve SPs).

Let me know if I’ve missed anything. (And no spoilers please)

(Side note: though not what I was going for, this appears to be a fantastic Windrunner Surgebinder build as well. Can cast Fly until 14 when they get at-will, Conc-less flight, use SB to “summon” their Shardblades, self heal, etc.)

So questions
1. What feats u pick if any
2. Are u allowed UA?

[RSP]

Some good advice here. I would like to add that a level dip could also be a great help. You're not going to have a lot of HP. So some AC will be nice.
1 lvl hexblade gives you medium armour and lets you hit with CHA
2 lvls palladin gives you heavy armour(or medium if you want CON saves) a fighting style and smite, giving you some great burst damage if you want it. (and lvl 1 palladin spells for some flexibility)
1 lvl cleric for heavy armour proficiency and some good lvl 1 spells (cure/heaing word, bless and general flexibility). Forge domain for even more AC, life for some healing if needed, tempest for more damage or war to make sure your cantrips hit if needed.

Half plate, dex 14, and shield is AC 19, which is nothing scoff at. Also magical shields and armour can get you even safer.

I'm playing a palladin2/sorcererX right now and its great fun. But I'm playin odysee of the dragonlords, which has a sorcerer subclass which gives you CHA to hit already. And I have thunderous smite, shield of faith and huntermark on a short rest recharge (no spell slots) from my race (nympf) and the sorcerer subclass. So it doesn't translate directly. But it's great fun to have AC 26 (breastplate, dex, shield, defensive fighting style, shield of faith + shield spell) at lvl 3 when I want to :)

Playing a Hexblade 13 now: has good damage output, but not nearly enough defense to stay on the front. He’s my main evidence in gishes not holding up to enemy damage in tier 3 (Bladesinger’s Song of Defense mitigates this issue, but I’m hoping to make the Sorc build work). Won’t be dipping Hexblade for this build.

Stats will determine some stuff, as necessities may dictate how I go.

Not worried about Smites (more concerned with taking damage than giving it out: and a Smite vs SB, particularly upcasted, will overall do less damage) and DS gives the Pally spells I want. Hoping to keep this straight Sorc: looking forward to getting into tier 4 and don’t want to push abilities like at-will flight (DS 14), Wish and DS self heal. But if a dip is needed, Pally and Warlock (Celestial) are possibilities.

Appreciate the post though! I haven’t played a Sorcadin yet, but it’s on my list. What level are you at? LoHs helps with recovery/extending frontline time, and they have good AC, but are you seeing any issues with staying power?

My understanding is Mad Mage will have long work days: every Smite cast is one less Shield or SB. Getting Spell Point Variant, I think, is what makes this build work, as getting those extra castings of level 1 and 2 spells helps a lot in keeping the character up. Nova is less useful with these long days (2nd level Smite=~+12.5 damage on one hit, versus 2nd level SB=~+4.5 damage on every hit for 1 min (and Advantage if in Dim/Dark). Yes, sometimes that one hit added damage is needed, but in longer set fights, that advantage+duration will win out in damage dealt.


So questions
1. What feats u pick if any
2. Are u allowed UA?

No UA. If going Vhuman, might go Lucky or Magic Initiate (Sorc) for 2 additional cantrips and spell known (Shield, d/t usable 1-20). A lot may open up depending on what’s in Tasha’s though.

[RogueJK]

1 lvl cleric for heavy armour proficiency and some good lvl 1 spells (cure/heaing word, bless and general flexibility). Forge domain for even more AC, life for some healing if needed, tempest for more damage or war to make sure your cantrips hit if needed.

Cleric is likely the best option if you're needing to dip a level to get armor proficiency, as you wouldn't be slowing down your higher level spells slots/spell points. And this would eliminate the need to spend a feat on Magic Initiate for more cantrips.

(But 1 level of War cleric doesn't add any way to "make sure your cantrips hit"...)

In addition to the ones listed, Nature and Order are also an option for a 1 level Cleric dip for Heavy Armor. Nature would be less useful to you than the others. But if you have a Rogue in your party, Order's 1st level Voice of Authority could be useful, especially if you're not frequently using Spiritual Weapon and your Bonus Actions are going unused. On your turn you could take your Action, then toss out a Bonus Action Healing Word on the Rogue, and they get an extra off-turn Sneak Attack (one of the few ways for a Rogue to get more than 1 Sneak Attack per round, which is a big DPR boost).


If you only want Medium armor, consider Light or Arcana. Light Cleric's Warding Flare could be useful for a melee Sorcerer, provided you have a decent WISMOD. More useful than the minor damage from Tempest's Wrath of the Storm, at least. This also gives you something useful besides Shield to spend some of your Reactions on. 1 level of Arcana Cleric gets you 5 additional Cantrips (3x Cleric and 2x Wizard), allowing you to take Booming Blade, Guidance, and 3x other utility cantrips (such as Thaumaturgy, Light, and Mage Hand). This would free up your Sorcerer cantrips for other options that are more CHA-reliant like attack spells. Plus you'd get Magic Missile through your Cleric spells known, which is handy to have, and it won't matter that it's WIS based since there's no attack roll, saving throw, or WIS-based damage bonus.

[Let'sGetKraken]

Yeah, as other posters have said, I would suggest going Cleric 1. I played a fighter-esque storm sorcerer a while back, and found that the one-level dip into fighter was definitely worth losing out on a little spellcasting progression. Since you're going pure caster in melee range, would definitely suggest Cleric as a compromise.

Either way, it looks like a very fun character idea!

[bendking]

If you're intent on being mostly Sorcerer I would recommend either Paladin 2 or Tempest (or whichever else grants heavy armor proficiency) Cleric 2.

[Nhorianscum]

I'm fond of 2 levels in grave cleric personally.

[RogueJK]

If you're intent on being mostly Sorcerer I would recommend either Paladin 2 or Tempest (or whichever else grants heavy armor proficiency) Cleric 2.

If dipping 2 levels in something, Tempest is especially great for being able to toss out the occasional Maximized Upcast Lightning Bolt, Shatter, or Thunderwave, and eventually Maximized Chain Lightning.

Paladin lets you Smite and gets you a Fighting Style, but has to be taken at Level 1 for Heavy Armor (which means you'd lose out on CON save proficiency, which is painful). Tempest Cleric can be added in anywhere during progression and still grants Heavy Armor.

[Diebo]

I built a front-line melee DS Sorcerer (using spell point variant) for DH, but only got to play to level 3. I was also the only healer in the party. Our group doesn’t do much multiclassing, which might be a constraint you don’t have, and we used point buy. A lot of restrictions right off the top. I went Mountain Dwarf for the +2 STR/CON, Medium Armor proficiency, and Dwarven Weapon Training. Started with 15 10 17 10 8 15.

The idea was to get Heavy Armor Feat at 4th (and 16 STR) and by that time probably find some plate, and have 18 AC and ability to cast shield. Use twinned booming blade, with the ability to quicken for 3 attacks/round, or flexibility to cast a spell and still attack. At level 8 get +1 CON and +1 CHA; with 18 CON and AID spell you’ve got the hitpoints of a lot of fighters, and 2-3 attacks/turn. Absorb elements to make up for bad Dexterity. Misty Step to make up for stumpy Dwarven legs.

Spells are at an absolute premium with Sorcerers. My rule is if you have one spell that can perform an action, use it, then upgrade and ditch it. For example, start with Healing Word. Twin can pick up two allies. But switch out to Aid at level 3, as it can pick up 3 people, and upcast as necessary as you level up. Similar for Misty Step – trade out for Dimension Door. Revivify gets replaced with Raise Dead. Fireball for Synaptic Static.

Pick some spells that have a lot of flexibility (in/out of combat, good synergy with metamagic). Polymorph can be twinned, used in or out of combat. Telekenesis can be used for exploration/combat, and targets ability checks (no legendary saves). Disintegrate can be twinned and has combat and exploration uses.
I started him out as a gruff dwarf who just wanted to be a normal dwarf and use a battle-axe, but these strange powers surged through him. He’d try to hide it from others if he cast anything. Not take credit for the healing word cast in the heat of battle, that sort of thing. Said his axe was a family heirloom and that’s why it was infused with the booming magic (but it was a normal battleaxe).

[RSP]

I built a front-line melee DS Sorcerer (using spell point variant) for DH, but only got to play to level 3. I was also the only healer in the party. Our group doesn’t do much multiclassing, which might be a constraint you don’t have, and we used point buy. A lot of restrictions right off the top. I went Mountain Dwarf for the +2 STR/CON, Medium Armor proficiency, and Dwarven Weapon Training. Started with 15 10 17 10 8 15.

The idea was to get Heavy Armor Feat at 4th (and 16 STR) and by that time probably find some plate, and have 18 AC and ability to cast shield. Use twinned booming blade, with the ability to quicken for 3 attacks/round, or flexibility to cast a spell and still attack. At level 8 get +1 CON and +1 CHA; with 18 CON and AID spell you’ve got the hitpoints of a lot of fighters, and 2-3 attacks/turn. Absorb elements to make up for bad Dexterity. Misty Step to make up for stumpy Dwarven legs.

Spells are at an absolute premium with Sorcerers. My rule is if you have one spell that can perform an action, use it, then upgrade and ditch it. For example, start with Healing Word. Twin can pick up two allies. But switch out to Aid at level 3, as it can pick up 3 people, and upcast as necessary as you level up. Similar for Misty Step – trade out for Dimension Door. Revivify gets replaced with Raise Dead. Fireball for Synaptic Static.

Pick some spells that have a lot of flexibility (in/out of combat, good synergy with metamagic). Polymorph can be twinned, used in or out of combat. Telekenesis can be used for exploration/combat, and targets ability checks (no legendary saves). Disintegrate can be twinned and has combat and exploration uses.
I started him out as a gruff dwarf who just wanted to be a normal dwarf and use a battle-axe, but these strange powers surged through him. He’d try to hide it from others if he cast anything. Not take credit for the healing word cast in the heat of battle, that sort of thing. Said his axe was a family heirloom and that’s why it was infused with the booming magic (but it was a normal battleaxe).

Nice RP and I appreciate the post.

I’m probably staying away from typical damage spells; and most out of combat stuff. My current Warlock acts as party Face, and I’m hoping to avoid that role with this PC (in part to allow others to fill the void; in part to RP something different).

This PC I’m working on always loved true warriors: the guys and gals in full plate, fighting evil, swinging swords, etc.; but was just the son of a farmer, in a farming village.

When his Sorcerer powers manifested, they did so (subconsciously) reflecting his love of said warriors: Mage Armor actually manifests as armor (though clearly not actual armor as he doesn’t know the intricacies of the overlapping plates, chain, straps), Shield manifests as a shield, and he uses his manifested sword (SB).

So, to start at least, he won’t be doing any “high magic” spells like Animate Object, Fireball, and whatnot. Will need to see how the campaign goes to find out if these will be valid choices later in his development. Maybe he’ll understand more about his abilities as we go; maybe not.

Hence spells that allow him to recover (because those warriors from the stories can shake off poison, or disease or otherwise-life-threatening-attacks), or add to his sturdiness (Aid, DW).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Boy, a straight d6 character as a melee sounds like a challenge. I'm currently playing a Dragon sorcerer (so d6 +1 hp) with a level of Fighter (Heavy armor and Defense fighting style). With Shield spell I'm tough to hit, so can be versatile where I'm standing in combat. Taking a 2nd fighter level shortly. I really like my current character mechanically and thematically, though we are playing RAW, so there are limited times I can Quicken and go Green Flame Blade. Good luck with your character.

[RogueJK]

Boy, a straight d6 character as a melee sounds like a challenge.

Not necessarily, provided you have a decent CON. It's only ~2 HP per level difference compared to a Fighter, or ~1 HP per level difference compared to a Cleric (many of whom frontline just fine) or your Draconic Sorcerer. You're getting added defense from all the various cleric and sorcerer buff spells. If you do end up feeling like you need more HP, spells like False Life and Aid can help make up the difference. Or invest in the Inspiring Leader feat, since you're CHA-based anyway.

Aid, especially, would fit well with his character concept as described a couple posts up. His internal magic is manifesting additional HP to make him and his allies into tough, hardy warriors. No flashy, overt magic involved.

[Greywander]

The thing to remember is that you are still a sorcerer, first and foremost, even if you dip into paladin or Hexblade. My suggestion is to open every combat by quickening your strongest spell, then twin Booming Blade. Subsequent turns will probably consist of quickening another (weaker) spell then twinning Booming Blade again. BA spells that don't need to be quickened, like Healing Word, can be twinned next to BB. However, this right here might be a wrinkle in this specific strategy:

So, to start at least, he won’t be doing any “high magic” spells like Animate Object, Fireball, and whatnot. Will need to see how the campaign goes to find out if these will be valid choices later in his development. Maybe he’ll understand more about his abilities as we go; maybe not.
I wonder if an Eldritch Knight or paladin wouldn't fit your character concept better? It seems like you want to lean more into the martial side of a gish, which leaves me wondering why you'd play a full caster. Something to think about. If you're focusing more on support spells, then you might not need to invest as much into CHA, so you might make DEX your main stat instead to boost your melee attacks and AC.

One of the really nice things about the spell point variant (that's already been mentioned) is that you can cast Shield for days. In general, a lot of your lower level spells and low cost metamagics will stretch really far, so you should probably pick a few that you plan to use all the time. Stronger spells will take priority due to the action economy, but if you're already concentrating on a good spell and you need to toss out some extra magical support, then these low level fallbacks can be safely spammed.

Speaking of spell point variants, I've written up my own Revised Sorcerer (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DUbtHOfw4Y66HUd0bmylnfS-zKIF1_Khz6S3pXfAvis/edit?usp=sharing) that uses sorcery points instead of spell slots (essentially, sorcery points = spell points). The main difference, aside from a combined spell point/sorcery point pool, is that they get fewer sorcery points than the spell point variant normally gives, but regain some on a short rest. I've also added some new metamagicks and new ways to use existing metamagic options. Not sure if this is of interest to you, but if you were to use this homebrew I'd love to hear how it goes and get some feedback.

[bendking]

If dipping 2 levels in something, Tempest is especially great for being able to toss out the occasional Maximized Upcast Lightning Bolt, Shatter, or Thunderwave, and eventually Maximized Chain Lightning.
I actually made a build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24325811&postcount=300) exactly around this if you're interested.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Not necessarily, provided you have a decent CON. It's only ~2 HP per level difference compared to a Fighter, or ~1 HP per level difference compared to a Cleric (many of whom frontline just fine) or your Draconic Sorcerer. You're getting added defense from all the various cleric and sorcerer buff spells. If you do end up feeling like you need more HP, spells like False Life and Aid can help make up the difference. Or invest in the Inspiring Leader feat, since you're CHA-based anyway.

Aid, especially, would fit well with his character concept as described a couple posts up. His internal magic is manifesting additional HP to make him and his allies into tough, hardy warriors. No flashy, overt magic involved.

For sure the gap isn't as big as in 2e when Con bonus for non fighters was maxed at +2, but it's not just the hp. 1 level of fighter gets me Heavy Armor, Shield, Defensive fighting style, bonus action healing, and 4 extra hp for level 1. The extra hp per level for Draconic is just gravy. There is just no way the OP could play a full DS sorcerer the way I've been able to play my character.

[Nhorianscum]

For sure the gap isn't as big as in 2e when Con bonus for non fighters was maxed at +2, but it's not just the hp. 1 level of fighter gets me Heavy Armor, Shield, Defensive fighting style, bonus action healing, and 4 extra hp for level 1. The extra hp per level for Draconic is just gravy. There is just no way the OP could play a full DS sorcerer the way I've been able to play my character.

I mean, no?

1 casting of aid gives more HP than all of that.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I mean, no?

1 casting of aid gives more HP than all of that.

As in the 2nd level spell Aid? That grants 5 hp? How is that better than the 4 for Ftr 1 and let's say 5 for Draconic level 5 and the 6.5 (bonus action) per short rest for Ftr 1? By my calculations that's 28.5 hp. (I'll give you the free casting of the Aid spell as your 6th level Sorc would have an extra spell per day). Obviously the DS could use more resources to heal instead of attacking in combat just to stay alive, and he's likely going to need to due to the next issue: AC.

Then we get into AC... Plate and Shield and Defense style gives me 21 AC with shield bringing it to 26 when you really don't want to get hit. Assuming tier 2 again +1 Shield or Armor amongst other things could make it better. The DS Sorc can cast Mage Armor (use of resource) to get it to 15 assuming 14 Dex, which means 20 AC using shield and you're still getting hammered a lot. And your list of potential magic items to improve AC is shorter.

[RSP]

I wonder if an Eldritch Knight or paladin wouldn't fit your character concept better? It seems like you want to lean more into the martial side of a gish, which leaves me wondering why you'd play a full caster. Something to think about. If you're focusing more on support spells, then you might not need to invest as much into CHA, so you might make DEX your main stat instead to boost your melee attacks and AC.

One of the really nice things about the spell point variant (that's already been mentioned) is that you can cast Shield for days. In general, a lot of your lower level spells and low cost metamagics will stretch really far, so you should probably pick a few that you plan to use all the time.

EK and Paladin are too martial for this character. He might know how to use a sword, but he doesn’t know armors. He isn’t an expert with a sword. He uses his innate magic to mimic such things.

Spell Points and getting a lot more lower level castings is how this build runs. I haven’t done any math on it, but the assumption is Shield will prevent enough hits per SR to at least even out the lesser HP die. AE will similarly help (though with less occurance). Aid, DW and Cure Wounds will take him over the durability of a frontline Fighter.

His damage won’t be as good, barring upcasted SB, but he’ll be able to counter poisons, conditions, invisibility, and, at 14, fly.

Yes, it’s a long rest limited resource, but hopefully they last given the variant. That’s the hope anyway.

[RSP]

As in the 2nd level spell Aid? That grants 5 hp? How is that better than the 4 for Ftr 1 and let's say 5 for Draconic level 5 and the 6.5 (bonus action) per short rest for Ftr 1? By my calculations that's 28.5 hp. (I'll give you the free casting of the Aid spell as your 6th level Sorc would have an extra spell per day). Obviously the DS could use more resources to heal instead of attacking in combat just to stay alive, and he's likely going to need to due to the next issue: AC.

I don’t think you’re accurately assessing the build. Dex>Con>Cha (can’t give actual stats because we haven’t rolled yet). The comparison with your AC 21 build would be Mage Armor with max possible Dex (guessing 20 by level 8 at the latest). So 18 standard, 20 if you’re assuming magic items (Bracers of Armor). So either 23 or 25 with Shield, when needed.

Aid (“free” cast at highest level slot) will certainly help, as will Quicken Cure Wounds, if needed. Mage Armor, Aid and DW would be “free” spells if cast before a LR, providing Spell Points for extra Shields, AEs. As I stated upthread, the extra castings of Shield (with Spell Points) should make up for any armor deficiencies (though 18 or 20 is a fine base AC, in my opinion).

Including the ability to Cure Wounds (with Empowered Healing), See Invis, Prot from Poison, Lesser/Greater Res, with Quicken, I think, really ups the staying power. For instance, against anything with poison, PfP will really swing durability (removing Poisoned condition, Resistance to Poison damage, Advantage on Saves).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don’t think you’re accurately assessing the build. Dex>Con>Cha (can’t give actual stats because we haven’t rolled yet). The comparison with your AC 21 build would be Mage Armor with max possible Dex (guessing 20 by level 8 at the latest). So 18 standard, 20 if you’re assuming magic items (Bracers of Armor). So either 23 or 25 with Shield, when needed.

Aid (“free” cast at highest level slot) will certainly help, as will Quicken Cure Wounds, if needed. Mage Armor, Aid and DW would be “free” spells if cast before a LR, providing Spell Points for extra Shields, AEs. As I stated upthread, the extra castings of Shield (with Spell Points) should make up for any armor deficiencies (though 18 or 20 is a fine base AC, in my opinion).

Including the ability to Cure Wounds (with Empowered Healing), See Invis, Prot from Poison, Lesser/Greater Res, with Quicken, I think, really ups the staying power. For instance, against anything with poison, PfP will really swing durability (removing Poisoned condition, Resistance to Poison damage, Advantage on Saves).

Well, you have my 2 cents and then some. I genuinely hope it goes well for you.

[RSP]

Well, you have my 2 cents and then some. I genuinely hope it goes well for you.

Thanks. For the record, I wasn’t questioning your advice, just pointing out that the build ran differently than how you were comparing it (I think you mentioned it having 14 Dex, when Dex would be his primary stat), and I just wanted to point out it wasn’t a typical “Caster who can melee” build, but more dedicated to the melee side.

The main concern is staying power, but hopefully there’s enough here to keep him upright.

[Greywander]

So a support caster gish, then. Kind of like a cleric, but using a Divine Soul sorcerer instead. This sounds like it should be pretty effective.

I definitely recommend grabbing the Twinned Spell metamagic, as a lot of good cleric buff spells are single target and concentration, so twinning them allows you to pull the weight of two clerics. Imagine, for example, twinning Shield of Faith on yourself and another tank or squishy (in another thread, it was pointed out that whoever is consistently going down first needs the AC more, and that is more often the squishy than the tank). You can also twin Revivify or Raise Dead, and IIRC it only takes one diamond. For non-concentration spells, twinning will also be cheaper than casting the spell twice, though not usually more than casting the spell one level higher (if doing so allows a second target, like Invisibility). Quickened Spell is of course also strong, but better for spells that aren't eligible to be twinned, and then you can use your action to twin Booming Blade.

I'm not entirely sure if you should rely on Shadow Blade too much. It's nice to have, but there are a lot nicer spells you could be concentrating on instead. Shadow Blade gets a lot better if you have more attacks (it's good on an EK, for example), and by default you only have one. All the more reason to twin BB, and possible quicken it as well. So it's good to have options, but I'd also try to get a decent magic weapon that you can use instead.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks. For the record, I wasn’t questioning your advice, just pointing out that the build ran differently than how you were comparing it (I think you mentioned it having 14 Dex, when Dex would be his primary stat), and I just wanted to point out it wasn’t a typical “Caster who can melee” build, but more dedicated to the melee side.

The main concern is staying power, but hopefully there’s enough here to keep him upright.

In fairness my experience is based on playing with limited stats and without spell points. Your situation is more favorable to doing as you suggest.

[RogueJK]

So a support caster gish, then. Kind of like a cleric, but using a Divine Soul sorcerer instead. This sounds like it should be pretty effective.

I definitely recommend grabbing the Twinned Spell metamagic, as a lot of good cleric buff spells are single target and concentration, so twinning them allows you to pull the weight of two clerics. Imagine, for example, twinning Shield of Faith on yourself and another tank or squishy (in another thread, it was pointed out that whoever is consistently going down first needs the AC more, and that is more often the squishy than the tank). You can also twin Revivify or Raise Dead, and IIRC it only takes one diamond. For non-concentration spells, twinning will also be cheaper than casting the spell twice, though not usually more than casting the spell one level higher (if doing so allows a second target, like Invisibility).


Twinned Spell is a must-have for a Divine Soul Sorcerer. In addition to the ones already mentioned:

Twinned Protection from Evil and Good is very useful when fighting certain specific types of enemies: aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead. (My Sorcadin got a lot of mileage out of this in an Avernus campaign.)

Twinned Healing Word can pick up two downed allies using just one Bonus Action.

Twinned Upcast Guiding Bolt can be a handy two-target damage spell with a nice rider.

Twinned Upcast Inflict Wounds is nice if you're in melee with multiple enemies.

Twinned Bestow Curse is another cool option if you're already in melee range.


Plus you still have the usual Sorcerer Twin Spell options, like Twinned Haste or Twinned (Greater) Invisibility as fantastic buffs. A personal favorite is Twinned Polymorph, which can be a game-changer, either for massively quasi-healing two party members on the verge of dropping, or for removing two of the bad guys from the fight temporarily to split their forces, or for one of each. There are a number of other solid debuff/control options for Twinning too (Hold/Dominate/Charm Person/Monster, Crown of Madness, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion, Blindness/Deafness, and the list goes on).


But not all of the above would likely be used by this specific character, since many of them are pretty overt magic.

[RSP]

So a support caster gish, then. Kind of like a cleric, but using a Divine Soul sorcerer instead. This sounds like it should be pretty effective.

I wouldn’t call it a support build. If “recovery build” was a thing, I’d go with that, as it focuses more on countering negative effects than buffing. Certainly others will benefit from Aid and DW, assuming castings are available before a LR (obviously either could be cast after a LR, but that would diminish that day’s resources a lot).

For RP reasons, it’ll be SB, unless and until story reasons dictate otherwise. In a large group like my table (6 other players), I’m thinking we’ll have plenty of others to fill roles like buffing. Eating hits and being able to get others back to 100% effectiveness is what this character can do - allowing them each to shine in however their builds will work.

I very well may be going overkill in the “making sure it can stay on the frontlines” department, but this is my test run to see if it’s possible. Perhaps I’ll see there’s room in the build for other uses, but for now, I’m dedicating it fully to that role.

Hence Quicken to get off heals/recovery spells (or, yes, an extra Attack), and Extend to make the most out of spell duration/maximize daily resources.

Undecided yet on 10th level Meta (assuming he makes it that far). A lot is still in the air (such as stats to see what kind of DC his spells have), and I’ll have a better grasp on its effectiveness by then too.

Still, I appreciate (and am open to) any additional advice. Thanks!

[Keravath]

Just to clarify, Spell Points =/= Sorcery Points. They can still be transferred using slots to make Sorcery Points at the same rate Flexible Casting allows.

... but aren't they much more efficient? As a 5th level sorcerer with 5 sorcery points can you spend a bonus action to convert 5 spell points to sorcery points? Or do you have to covert it to a spell slot you could have first?

Normally, a 5th level character has 2 3rd, 3 2nd and 4 1st level slots. Converting all of these to sorcery points take 9 bonus actions and really limits the sorcery point usage in combat since once the first 5 are gone the rate of conversion drops off.

However, with spell points, depending on what your DM is allowing, you can either convert 5 spell points to 5 sorcery points filling your pool for one bonus action even if you don't actually have any 5th level slots. If the DM requires that you don't convert them at amounts greater than the spell slots you could have .. then you can convert them in batches of 3 which still takes only 6 bonus actions to convert them all.

[RSP]

... but aren't they much more efficient? As a 5th level sorcerer with 5 sorcery points can you spend a bonus action to convert 5 spell points to sorcery points? Or do you have to covert it to a spell slot you could have first?

I believe, RAW, the variant rule requires the “creation” of a spell slot using spell Points in order to then convert. AFB, but I think 8th level slots are the most efficient to convert (8 Sorc for 11 Spell), followed closely by 5th (5 Sorc for 7 Spell).

Haven’t specifically confirmed this is how my DM will run it, but I’m assuming this method.

[DracoKnight]

Appreciate the post! I’m going for RP/fun on this over optimization, so I’m glad there’s precedent.

I’m really trying to lean into non-Conc spells, other than SB. My list would be something like:

1st
Shield
Mage Armor
Cure Wounds

Gaining on levels:
SB
Aid
AE
Lesser Res
Prot from Poison
Death Ward
SW
Greater Restoration

Something like that. Might take SW earlier, might take Prot from Evil and Good or See Invis instead.

Happy I could help!

I think your spell list looks mostly good. You’ll just want a way to do consistent damage in melee to warrant being in melee. It looks like you’ll have fun being a support gish, though ^_^

[RogueJK]

Spirit Guardians is a great spell for a melee Divine Soul Sorcerer. And fits the theme of your internal magic manifesting allies to aid you. It gives you an AoE option, and still leaves your Action and Bonus Action open for Booming Blades and other stuff. It would allow you to do even more potential damage than just concentrating on Shadow Blade.

[Chugger]

I did an OotA campaign where one player was already a sorc and another chose wiz. The wiz seemed to think that roleplaying her char meant starting a fight with monsters we'd just talked into not attacking - we let them kill her - "hey, not our fight." - they killed her and moved on - and for some reason she quit.

So then the sorc player had this idea he could use shadow blade and be awesome ... and we were getting our butts handed to us every fight because there was no one doing effective control spells and AoE. The sorc was useless. He did pitiful damage, and because he and the player who quit had picked arcane casters, it stopped other players (who knew how to do it and who were committed to finishing) from being arcane casters.

Do yourself a favor and 2-dip paladin so you can smite and wear at least medium armor. If you do PaM feat you can get 2 attacks a round, and once your sorc levels are a bit along, you'll be able to do some real melee damage, with 2 attacks and smiting. Or quicken cast GFB cantrip or BB cantrip to get 2 attacks per round - but PaM gives you the same thing without having to spend all those sorc points.

You can have a spell going in combat to help you, like improved invis - or you can hyp pat a bunch of enemies and then go into melee, concentrating on that. Look, it's your character - if you must do this work out a way to be useful and pump out enough damage to feel like you matter, like you're contributing, and not an anchor on the party. This is possible - I'm not saying give up - but keep working til you find a way, one that you also like.

[Valmark]

So then the sorc player had this idea he could use shadow blade and be awesome ... and we were getting our butts handed to us every fight because there was no one doing effective control spells and AoE. The sorc was useless. He did pitiful damage, and because he and the player who quit had picked arcane casters, it stopped other players (who knew how to do it and who were committed to finishing) from being arcane casters.



To be fair, if the other players didn't make arcane casters it's on them unless there was a house rule that stopped multiple players from making the same class, not the sorcerer player.

[Gtdead]

To be fair, if the other players didn't make arcane casters it's on them unless there was a house rule that stopped multiple players from making the same class, not the sorcerer player.

While I agree with the sentiment, my experience is that most people dislike having 2 similar classes in the group. For example, I wanted to play a sorcadin, and the sorcerer player was like: "If you want to play a sorcerer, I should play something else".

[RSP]

While I agree with the sentiment, my experience is that most people dislike having 2 similar classes in the group. For example, I wanted to play a sorcadin, and the sorcerer player was like: "If you want to play a sorcerer, I should play something else".

Personally, I go by role/build more than class. For instance, I’d not have an issue with a ranged fighter and a melee fighter in the same group. Nor a control Wiz and a BS melee Wiz.

The role for a PC has a lot more chance to step on toes than the class (in my opinion). The above mentioned classes in a group would be less an issue than, say, if one player built a tank fighter and another player built a tank Barb: they’re trying to do the same thing; likewise if one player built a control Sorc and another a control Wiz.