which is the most powerful type?

[newguydude1]

is it outsider? seems like outsiders have the most dangerous monsters. titan, solar, etc.
im not too familiar with aberrations and undead. constructs seem inferior to outsiders cause most are mindless and lack flight and a ranged attack.

most powerful as in equal cr, which one can kill pcs more.

[Kaleph]

I know it's an obvious answer but...it depends, really. Party composition, average level, specific monster and the accuracy of the designers when assigning the CR are all type-independent parameters.

Outsiders are admittedly a good compromise between good defenses, standard offense (melee...) and special attacks (that sometime include spells).

The basic traits of the undead type are amongst the weakest, but undeads are strong on SoD and debuffs, especially those featuring debuffing auras that don't require an action to activate.

Since humanoids are perfectly customizable (and low CR), I'd argue that it is one of the strongest types.

Also, please consider that the name of the game ain't "dungeons and outsiders" for a reason.

[noob]

I know it's an obvious answer but...it depends, really. Party composition, average level, specific monster and the accuracy of the designers when assigning the CR are all type-independent parameters.

Outsiders are admittedly a good compromise between good defenses, standard offense (melee...) and special attacks (that sometime include spells).

The basic traits of the undead type are amongst the weakest, but undeads are strong on SoD and debuffs, especially those featuring debuffing auras that don't require an action to activate.

Since humanoids are perfectly customizable (and low CR), I'd argue that it is one of the strongest types.

Also, please consider that the name of the game ain't "dungeons and outsiders" for a reason.

Dragons are rather underwhelming if you do not pick the ones with casting > cr.
Even then there is a harsh competition with other monsters that cheeses the caster level for example the monsters which use class dissociation to get to be extremely high level casters for very low cr.
For example get a CR1 4 hd creature then give it 3 levels in wizard then 3 levels in PRCthatprogresswizard1 then 3 levels in PRCthatprogresswizard2 and so on.
The strongest monsters are the monsters that have high hd and low cr and can get levels in a casting class and be considered as having it be dissociated.
Also there is an aberration that had a cr inferior to their wizard caster level which made it quite dangerous.

[newguydude1]

im not looking for 1hd and a bunch of wizard level type of stuff. just monster stat block as is no customization. so spellcasters like dragons have to have the spells listed in their stat block and nothing else.

[noob]

im not looking for 1hd and a bunch of wizard level type of stuff. just monster stat block as is no customization. so spellcasters like dragons have to have the spells listed in their stat block and nothing else.

So solar that gates solar is by far the strongest monster with the list of abilities and spells it have written: it is ridiculously stronger than any dragon that have their spell list indicated in the manuals (dragons nearly never have their spell list written so they are bad according to your metric)

Dragons are however among the worst caster creatures due to nearly none of them having any indicated spell list (you are supposed to do a minimum of customisation to place a dragon or you are forced pick among an extremely limited list of specific ages of specific kinds of dragons)

There is a bunch of stated npc epic wizards and they are generally liches or humanoids but they often pick extremely awful spell lists and so can not beat solar gating solar unless they got lucky enough to get gate.

[newguydude1]

So solar that gates solar is by far the strongest monster with the list of abilities and spells it have written.

sure for epic cr 23 solar is king along with demogorogn and baalzebu so outsider takes the cake. how about the lower crs.

[noob]

sure for epic cr 23 solar is king along with demogorogn and baalzebu so outsider takes the cake. how about the lower crs.

The damn crab was really strong due to its excessive amount of brute force for its very low CR but is countered by flight and levitation.
I forgot if there was a stated anaxime (or whatever was called that construct that is a copy of an individual sent by a god to take revenge) but they are very dangerous when they are not the one based on you(shapechange, invlunerable to anyone but the individual they copy, lazer eyes and so on).
Most low level incorporeal undeads are stupidly dangerous if the party is not prepared as are low cr swarms.

[Biggus]

most powerful as in equal cr, which one can kill pcs more.

Theoretically, equal CR means they can kill PCs about the same. Dragons tend to be under-CR'd so by this measure, probably dragons.

A more meaningful measure I think would be which monster has highest CR for equal HD, as that would allow a comparison of the intrinsic strength of each type. Dragons and outsiders would win out here, with dragons a little ahead of the base outsider; but most outsiders also have special abilities by subtype, which balances it out.

The advanced monster challenge ratings table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng) gives a very rough comparison of the value of a HD for each type.

[H_H_F_F]

Most low level incorporeal undeads are stupidly dangerous if the party is not prepared as are low cr swarms.

This. Most low level groups just aren't equipped to handle a swarm. I'd also say certain groups are entirely unequipped to deal with Fey at these levels, but those encounters don't tend to be as lethal.

[NigelWalmsley]

Theoretically, equal CR means they can kill PCs about the same. Dragons tend to be under-CR'd so by this measure, probably dragons.

Dragons, for some reason, are CRed as "very difficult" (EL+4) encounters. So a Dragon is intended to be about as dangerous as fighting four regular monsters. Whether they hit that exact marker or not is up for some debate, but they're certainly the most generally under-CRed monsters out there. The average dragon is perfectly capable of kiting the PCs to death with its breath weapon while still being as dangerous in melee as the average bruiser monster (and certainly more dangerous than most melee PCs).

That said, if you're looking for low-CR stuff, look no further than the Lantern Archon. It's CR 2, but it's a flying archer with DR 10/you-don't-have-it, and its laser beams will kill even the toughest PCs relatively quickly.

[noob]

There is an incorporeal undead swarm.
It is so much murderous.

[Doctor Despair]

Also depends on whether the DM/player gives the dragons epic feats :p

[noob]

Also depends on whether the DM/player gives the dragons epic feats :p

If you give dragons epic feats then fear the giant scorpions with way too many epic feats.

[Doctor Despair]

If you give dragons epic feats then fear the giant scorpions with way too many epic feats.

Dragons are eligible to select epic feats pre-epic though, provided they meet the other prerequisites. Iirc it's in the Draconomicon

[NigelWalmsley]

If you give dragons epic feats then fear the giant scorpions with way too many epic feats.

Monstrous Scorpions are mindless. They don't get feats at all, Epic or otherwise. Also, IIRC, none of the Epic feats grant Flight, so they'd still be just as vulnerable to flying archers even with a bunch of Epic feats.

[Crake]

im not looking for 1hd and a bunch of wizard level type of stuff. just monster stat block as is no customization. so spellcasters like dragons have to have the spells listed in their stat block and nothing else.

Uhh, well, true dragons don't actually have things like feats and spells picked out for them, since it's impractical to have a sample statblock of every dragon at every age category (yes, I know the draconomicon did this for the standard chromatic/metallic dragons, but there's still a whole bunch of true dragons beyond that without sample stats), so by necessity, DMs have to pick feats and spells specifically for a true dragon they want to use.

[noob]

Monstrous Scorpions are mindless. They don't get feats at all, Epic or otherwise. Also, IIRC, none of the Epic feats grant Flight, so they'd still be just as vulnerable to flying archers even with a bunch of Epic feats.

Some non epic feats grants flight so if you have enough tons of feats you can solve many problems.
But yes I should have picked a different giant thingie.

On the subject of creatures getting epic feats it is irrelevant because the creator of the thread indicated "no custom monsters" and changing the feats of a monster makes it custom so it matters only if the already written statblock already have those.


Uhh, well, true dragons don't actually have things like feats and spells picked out for them, since it's impractical to have a sample statblock of every dragon at every age category (yes, I know the draconomicon did this for the standard chromatic/metallic dragons, but there's still a whole bunch of true dragons beyond that without sample stats), so by necessity, DMs have to pick feats and spells specifically for a true dragon they want to use.

If we allow one type a favour in allowing it to get customised then of course it will be stronger than types that are disallowed from being customised.
Just like how if we decided "we compare to try to find what is the strongest type knowing that in this comparison we will grant specifically elementals the ability to cast at will all the spells and infinite stats" will favour elementals.

[AvatarVecna]

Animals, Elementals, Giants, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Oozes, Plants, and Vermin are out. Yes, some of those can serve as the basis for PC levels but it's uncommon and costly to do so. 99 times out of 100, you see a creature with that type, it's a beatstick, maybe a beatstick with a neat twist. It's rare that these creature types have anything close to variety, or even just being different from stereotypical creatures of their type - Living Spells are like that, as are some Magical Beasts that lean more Magical than Beast. But the closest you get to "neat twist" on vermin is the swarm subtype. Let me put it this way: if all you knew is that you were fighting a Plant, you'd almost certainly know the general tactics that would be employed.

Fey are typecast, but they're at least typecast more in the casting direction. Buuuut they also tend to be typecast more in the "noncombatant" direction too, so that's kind of a wash. Generally, when you see a powerful fey, they might have casting, but they'll tend more towards Sp/Su abilities.

Aberrations tend to be a good mix of boring and interesting, but they also tend more towards Sp/Su than real casting - which isn't bad, it's just not as good as it could be.

Constructs, Dragons, and Undead tend to end up as beatsticks too, but it's more nuanced. Dragon Type has the best Chassis (or at least competes with Outsider), and Construct/Undead have a laundry list of immunities. And while all three will tend towards being beatsticks cuz it's still 3.5, there's plenty of examples of all three that do something more tricky.

Outsiders are 1st or 2nd best chassis, but also the Outsider type easily has the most variance in it - it's the go-to type for planar denizens, and so they tend to be designed more for combat in nonstandard environments and fighting nonstandard foes. Casting, Su/Sp abilities, and weird Ex abilities abound in this creature type, and "you'll be fighting an Outsider" tells you literally nothing about what to expect.

Humanoids are dangerous for a completely different reason: the number of humanoids that have more than a couple racial HD can be counted on two hands with fingers left over, and at least one of them is blatantly mistyped. This means that the vast vast majority of humanoids can jump straight into taking class levels, and class levels are better than most anything because unlike HD, they give you other stuff too. Sure, a Solar casts as a cleric 18, but if the Solar advances to 66 HD, their casting won't even get a single itty bit stronger directly.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even if you only take dragons with sample statblocks they're still a pretty strong contender.
Even without feats their raw stats tend to be very high for their CR.

An equal-CR dragons full attack can kill even tanks if they're not decently buffed and/or optimized and their all-good saves and generally high HD for their CR make a lot of common BFC and debuff spells a dicey proposition. They also have among the fastest movement speeds in the game and very good anti-stealth abilities.

And while the core dragons may not be particularly powerful spellcasters for their CR (it's enough to add a bit of gish though) other examples do get more competitive casting.
Also most true dragons can learn cleric spells in addition to sorcerer/wizard ones, which is another factor to consider.

Add an undefined bonus for most true dragons being customized by default - because it's not like DM's don't use dragons, they do - and i'd say they're at least on par with outsiders.


I think outsiders are the only other serious contender to the top spot thanks to ridiculus versatility (the variety of demons and devils alone...), near-universally either spellcasting or spell-likes (or both) and celestials generally being very dangerous for their CR.

Third place would go to either undead or aberrations i'd say.

[newguydude1]

Uhh, well, true dragons don't actually have things like feats and spells picked out for them, since it's impractical to have a sample statblock of every dragon at every age category (yes, I know the draconomicon did this for the standard chromatic/metallic dragons, but there's still a whole bunch of true dragons beyond that without sample stats), so by necessity, DMs have to pick feats and spells specifically for a true dragon they want to use.

draconomicon does.

ok so the consensus seems to be outsider vs dragon for 1st. aberration vs undead for 3rd.

edit: can you guys give examples of some noticeable aberrations and undead? non incorporeal.

[noob]

draconomicon does.

ok so the consensus seems to be outsider vs dragon for 1st. aberration vs undead for 3rd.

edit: can you guys give examples of some noticeable aberrations and undead? non incorporeal.

I believe the itilidth have a tendency to get rid of groups with their mind blast and they have poor casting but still some casting.
The ethergaunts are quite dangerous aberrations (good casting) as can be beholders (sla spam at a high rate).
Among undead some of note are the undead that drowns people(drowning is scary) when used far from water(nobody did prepare water breathing) and some caster undead.

[NigelWalmsley]

The Aboleth is pretty nasty. It has a whole bunch of illusions at will (at CL 16 for some reason), most notably Mirage Arcana, which allows it to make its water-filled tunnels to appear to be filled with air instead. Meaning that the typical "fight" with an Aboleth involves you never seeing it and getting slammed with Dominates and Hypnotic Patterns until you drown.

[Psyren]

Humanoid (reptilian)

[sleepyphoenixx]

edit: can you guys give examples of some noticeable aberrations and undead? non incorporeal.
Nilshai (UE) are pretty ridiculous. CR 7, 8 HD, casts as an 8th level sorcerer, move action ethereal jaunt and an extra standard action every turn. Also flight and permanent Mind Blank.

[Oberron]

I think there is also an undead swarm thats cr5-7th iirc that auto drains str and make a more when something dies.

[Anthrowhale]

Note that outsiders, elementals, fey, and incorporeal undead have a special vulnerability to Planar/Spirit Binding. Similarly, undead have a special vulnerability to (greater) turning as do [earth],[fire],[air],[water], and lycanthropic creatures for clerics with the appropriate domains.

[Crake]

draconomicon does.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my post, but that doesn't cover all true dragons, just the basic metallic/chromatic ten.

[KillianHawkeye]

In terms of just the traits and features you get from your creature type, either Outsider or Dragon are clearly the best. They both get full BAB, all Good Saves, a good number of skill points (Outsiders slightly more than Dragons), and darkvision. Dragons get more hp, while Outsiders get better proficiencies. Dragons get low-light vision and immunity to sleep and paralysis, while Outsiders don't have to sleep or eat.

[Particle_Man]

If it was a case where I get a wish to change my type (no racial HD granted, just my type changes) I think plant is nice with all of its immunities (and without the downsides of being either construct or undead). But I don’t know if that counts as “powerful” for the OP’s purposes or not.

[Ruethgar]

From just type, I would say dragon. Even if you aren’t True, you have a fair bit of support for bonus things like Sovereign Archetypes(implied but not stated True only) and Epic feats. Plus half dragon and draconic can be messed with heavily through their template classes.

While they have rules for custom half fiends, they don’t for celestials and neither option can be technically (ab)used with the template class. You have to just be a normal half-fiend.

If you are going for versatility in type for things like stealing abilities through Alter Self, Outsider hands down. An otherworldly human blooded spark lesser Aasimar going into Chameleon to swap Assume Supernatural Ability daily comes to mind.