non incorporeal non undead template applicable to humanoids that grants immortality?

[newguydude1]

i know i know, i made a similar thread before. but things have changed. i cant take a prc that grants immortality as a capstone. and i dont want to be undead or incorporeal, so i made a new thread instead of bumping the old one.

best i got atm is spellwarped creature template (+3 la, turns me into an aberration) stacked with element creature (+3 la, turns me into an elemental) but i dont want to resort to template stacking unless i absolutely have to.

templates will be acquired by casting wish and following savage species race change rules.

rules:
no undead
no incorporeal
outsider must be stated to be immortal. too many pure outsiders are not immortal so you cant assume they are immortal by default.
fey must be stated to be immortal. afaik feys immortality or longevity is chosen by the dm. i want it chosen by raw not dm.
no dragon magazine
no prc. i dont have the class levels for it.

[Doctor Despair]

Take the "Wedded to History" feat

[noob]

i know i know, i made a similar thread before. but things have changed. i cant take a prc that grants immortality as a capstone. and i dont want to be undead or incorporeal, so i made a new thread instead of bumping the old one.

best i got atm is spellwarped creature template (+3 la, turns me into an aberration) stacked with element creature (+3 la, turns me into an elemental) but i dont want to resort to template stacking unless i absolutely have to.

templates will be acquired by casting wish and following savage species race change rules.

rules:
no undead
no incorporeal
outsider must be stated to be immortal. too many pure outsiders are not immortal so you cant assume they are immortal by default.
fey must be stated to be immortal. afaik feys immortality or longevity is chosen by the dm. i want it chosen by raw not dm.

Just become a Deathless.
Die then get reanimated as one with the create Deathless or create greater Deathless spell.

[newguydude1]

Take the "Wedded to History" feat

forgot to include no dragon


Just become a Deathless.
Die then get reanimated as one with the create Deathless or create greater Deathless spell.

no undead.

[Thurbane]

no undead.

Deathless are not undead despite appearances and sharing many traits. They are their own, separate, type.

This may be useful - Immortality: A Guide to Eternal Life (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1179.0)

While not a template, the Gray Portrait (an artifact from Champions of Ruin) does this.

[Venger]

Deathless aren't undead. They're a separate type.

All fey are immortal unless killed.

When you say you can't take a prc that grants immortality do you mean you can't take any prc that changes your type as a capstone, like green star adept or winterhaunt of iborighu? Or something else?

[newguydude1]

Deathless are not undead despite appearances and sharing many traits. They are their own, separate, type..

ok theyre not undead but they still look like undead and thats why i dont want to be a deathless.


All fey are immortal unless killed.

do you have a citation for that? because last time i asked, theres an article on the 3.5 website that says a feys lifespan is a dms decision. they either are immortal or live very long time. but a citation in a book would trump web article so....


When you say you can't take a prc that grants immortality do you mean you can't take any prc that changes your type as a capstone, like green star adept or winterhaunt of iborighu? Or something else?

yeah back when i was relying on a mirror mephit i went elemental savant that turned me into an elemental. but this time im going dweomerkeeper so i dont have any room for a class.

[Venger]

do you have a citation for that? because last time i asked, theres an article on the 3.5 website that says a feys lifespan is a dms decision. they either are immortal or live very long time. but a citation in a book would trump web article so....

Mortal hunters are fiends that specialize in killing mortals. For purposes of this prestige class, “mortal” is a term
meaning any creature not of the outsider, undead, construct,
or fey types.

Do you have a link to that web article? I've never heard of that.

You could just get it through race (elan, killoren, warforged, etc)

[newguydude1]

Do you have a link to that web article? I've never heard of that.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20040820a

You could just get it through race (elan, killoren, warforged, etc)

id turn into a succubus. but im a illumian naenhoon thing and i want to keep it. cause persistent limited wish emulating positive energy aura is nice.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Keep your body on a timeless plane or demiplane, such as the Astral Plane (which is one of the easiest planes to get to). Either buy a scroll of astral projection or use one of the planar binding spells to bind a nightmare (or use shadowcraft mage to craft one using an illusion spell). Use astral projection to adventure. Your body will not age, and if you die, you'll just end up right back on your timeless plane.

[newguydude1]

Keep your body on a timeless plane or demiplane, such as the Astral Plane (which is one of the easiest planes to get to). Either buy a scroll of astral projection or use one of the planar binding spells to bind a nightmare (or use shadowcraft mage to craft one using an illusion spell). Use astral projection to adventure. Your body will not age, and if you die, you'll just end up right back on your timeless plane.

and the near epic monsters will know what im doing, grab a silver sword, and cut the cord and kill me. or teleport to me and coup de grace me. so this requires a metric **** ton of contingencies and fortifying your place of rest and i dont want to do that. i dont like being tied down even if its my own demiplane.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

and the near epic monsters will know what im doing, grab a silver sword, and cut the cord and kill me. or teleport to me and coup de grace me. so this requires a metric **** ton of contingencies and fortifying your place of rest and i dont want to do that. i dont like being tied down even if its my own demiplane.If a near-epic monster wants to kill you, you're probably going to die regardless.

[nijineko]

I take it the Epic Destinies for 3.5 are not going to work for you either? You eventually get immortality with those.

There is one prestige that grants immortality at 1st, but you have to be an exalted female, with some hefty entry requirements.

I assume that Dungeon is off the table if Dragon is? Since there is an item that grants immortality of a sort there too.

If you can qualify for the Hide Life 9th level wiz/sor spell, you can become immortal as long as your severed body part isn't destroyed.

Managing to acquire Divine Rank 0 (at least) will do the trick as well. More of a DM cooperative method, however, unless you want to risk book throwing shenanigans.

Just a few thoughts.

[Venger]

He said no dragon. Were the epic destinies reprinted elsewhere?

[nijineko]

He said no dragon. Were the epic destinies reprinted elsewhere?

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned them.

[Thurbane]

Epic Destinies in D&D 3.5 (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428)


All fey are immortal unless killed.

That's not necessarily true; some Fey have listed age categories and a maximum age, such as Dusklings and Uldra.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A psychoactive skin of proteus. Each time you use metamorphosis, you end up in a young adult form. So when you're not actively chewing face as a dragon or whatever, turn into an elan, which is immortal. Every time you change form, you'll become young adult again. And if you end up getting coma'd for a few hundred years, since your default form is 'elan,' you'll only have to worry about aging penalties (but not death) until you metamorphosis again.

And if you have the psychoactive skin grafted onto you permanently... (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432)

If you're worried about dispelling, Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood has devices, which are nonmagical versions of magic items. Use one of those, instead, since they can't be dispelled, disjoined, AMF'd, or dead magic'd.

[newguydude1]

im not interested in life support. im not interested in dying in an amf, dead magic field, after a thief steals the item, etc. i want to be immortal like a succubus is. no strings attached and nothing takes it away. thats why i chose templates. no life support. no horcrux. no achilles heel. just plain immortality, no strings attached.


I assume that Dungeon is off the table if Dragon is? Since there is an item that grants immortality of a sort there too.

yes. 1st party books and web supplements for those books only. so no pure web supplements either.


Managing to acquire Divine Rank 0 (at least) will do the trick as well. More of a DM cooperative method, however, unless you want to risk book throwing shenanigans. .

yeah im trying to go down from template stacking. divine rank is a jump up.


Epic Destinies in D&D 3.5 (https://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428)

ill give it a read.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

im not interested in life support. im not interested in dying in an amf, dead magic field, after a thief steals the item, etc. i want to be immortal like a succubus is. no strings attached and nothing takes it away. thats why i chose templates. no life support. no horcrux. no achilles heel. just plain immortality, no strings attached.The only three ways for someone to take your immortality away in the case of a device psychoactive skin of proteus are 1.) to prevent you from ever using your psychoactive skin for long enough that you die of old age (which isn't exactly easy, even if you're metamorphosis'd into a mayfly), 2.) to convince you to change back to your original form after your lifespan would normally be up (which is also not exactly easy, especially if you add a protection from evil effect to it for cheap), or 3.) flay your skin off (in which case, it's easier to just kill you; and you'll probably die from it anyway).

And it's not like you can't do multiples of these.

[noob]

So the not undead rule is an aesthetic rule?
Just use one of the thousands of solutions to change how you look.
And succubi are not unkillable: just take them into their homeworld and kill them and they are dead.
So if you impose to not have a weak point then you need to get unkillability or else not having a weak point changes nothing because your body is a weak point.

Hey you did not forbid constructs so you are fine with being one?
I believe there is a bunch of ways to become one such as mindswap on a construct temporarily made vulnerable to mindswap.

Having an horcrux is 100% superior to not having one: if you do not have one and you are killed then you are dead.
If you have one and are killed you are not dead and if you have one and it gets destroyed you still are not dead: you need to lose both at the same time.
Horcruxes are not weak points : your body is one.

So as long as you do not fix the vulnerability problem of your body you should maximise the number of ways to recover from death: clones, phylacteries (not because you want to become a lich but rather because as a lich you can resurrect yourself while as a dead you can not), Mind imprints in thousand of magical items that wants to bring you back, loyal minions ready to cast resurrection, the ring of nine lives, some way to destroy your body when someone casts trap the soul or imprison and so on.

Obviously the only solution to have no weak points is becoming an aleax.
So the only way to be truly immortal is mind swap with an aleax of yourself and destroying your previous body forever.

Of course since you probably want to be easily killable and vulnerable and to have an extremely short life you should not get any of the things that increase your odds of survival and instead just become a worms that walks.(it is not an undead it is an aberration)

[newguydude1]

So the not undead rule is an aesthetic rule?
Just use one of the thousands of solutions to change how you look.

its both aesthetic and lore. i dont want to be rotting flesh. i dont want to be a dead corpse moving like a puppet through magic. and i dont want such a thing to be my true form once my polymorph wears off and such. i dont want to be undead. or deathless.


And succubi are not unkillable: just take them into their homeworld and kill them and they are dead.
So if you impose to not have a weak point then you need to get unkillability or else not having a weak point changes nothing because your body is a weak point.

by immortal i mean never die of old age and never grow old. eternal youth. the succubus reforming in the abyss was never a factor. elementals, fiends, constructs, theyre all fine.


Hey you did not forbid constructs so you are fine with being one?
I believe there is a bunch of ways to become one such as mindswap on a construct temporarily made vulnerable to mindswap.

yeah. frostburn also says simulacrum is explicitly immortal so swapping bodies with one works too. but dm ruled only way to swap bodies is psionics and no psionics in this campaign this time around.


Having an horcrux is 100% superior to not having one: if you do not have one and you are killed then you are dead.
If you have one and are killed you are not dead and if you have one and it gets destroyed you still are not dead: you need to lose both at the same time.
Horcruxes are not weak points : your body is one.

theres a difference between a horcrux being just a bonus like a lich phylactery except better because totally replaceable, and being 100% reliant on it to the point if it gets destroyed your ****ed. succubus with hide life can replace the destroyed finger. old age human staying alive with hide life will die the moment the finger is destroyed.

[noob]

its both aesthetic and lore. i dont want to be rotting flesh. i dont want to be a dead corpse moving like a puppet through magic. and i dont want such a thing to be my true form once my polymorph wears off and such. i dont want to be undead. or deathless.



by immortal i mean never die of old age and never grow old. eternal youth. the succubus reforming in the abyss was never a factor. elementals, fiends, constructs, theyre all fine.



yeah. frostburn also says simulacrum is explicitly immortal so swapping bodies with one works too. but dm ruled only way to swap bodies is psionics and no psionics in this campaign this time around.

theres a difference between a horcrux being just a bonus like a lich phylactery except better because totally replaceable, and being 100% reliant on it to the point if it gets destroyed your ****ed. succubus with hide life can replace the destroyed finger. old age human staying alive with hide life will die the moment the finger is destroyed.

So become a lich or undying then become a worms that walks this way you are not a puppet: you are made out of countless thinking worms and you still have a phylactery as a pure bonus that you now cram in a demiplane you made yourself.

By the way deathless never rots and you can make so your polymorph never wears off (grafted device phylactery of change: the only way to remove it from you involves killing you first)
you can even skip the magically animated part: use a create deathless caused by a device so you are now non magical, non rotting and can not be unpolymorphed without someone killing you first.

[newguydude1]

So become a lich or undying then become a worms that walks this way you are not a puppet: you are made out of countless thinking worms and you still have a phylactery as a pure bonus that you now cram in a demiplane you made yourself.

worm that walks has no la, and this is template stacking, which i'm trying to go down from.


By the way deathless never rots and you can make so your polymorph never wears off (grafted device phylactery of change: the only way to remove it from you involves killing you first)
you can even skip the magically animated part: use a create deathless caused by a device so you are now non magical, non rotting and can not be unpolymorphed without someone killing you first.

i hate corpses. stop trying to convince me that ill like what i hate. i hate corpses. and i hate polymorph because once its dispelled my true disgusting corpse form will show up. i hate corpses.

[noob]

worm that walks has no la, and this is template stacking, which i'm trying to go down from.



i hate corpses. stop trying to convince me that ill like what i hate. i hate corpses. and i hate polymorph because once its dispelled my true disgusting corpse form will show up. i hate corpses.

It can not be dispelled if it is from a device.
If you are alive you will become a corpse on dying.
Therefore you can not avoid your opponents turning you in a corpse unless becoming a construct, a swarm(because swarms disperse instead of leaving a corpse) or an incorporeal thing: those disperse when destroyed.

Living creatures are just corpses that are not aware of it yet(until that illusion is destroyed with damage).
Even outsiders are walking corpses.(Yes outsiders leaves corpses when killed)
By the way you can also pick human heritage and always have the humanoid type then you can become a lich without changing type thus proving there is no meaningful differences between an undead and a living creature.

Somehow in your mind dispelling something that literally can not dispelled and is not a spell is easier than killing someone while killing someone is infinitely easier.

To get the power to dispel something that is not a spell you need powers as much extreme as iron heart surge(which can literally dispel gravity, the inexorable passage of time, the possibility to exist, the concept of love and so on) or truename dispell which gives omniscience and allows to remove everything you want from reality(including stuff like "the possibility to be my opponent") or abuse the power of sarrukhs.
With any of the listed powers your opponents could turn you in a corpse retroactively for all eternity even if you never had been one before.

If your opponents are doing enough theoretic optimisation to dispel something that is the effect of a device(and therefore not a spell) you already had lost a long time ago.
Your character is maybe already an undead but just not aware of it because some of your omnipotent opponents were aware that you hated being one even when it was impossible for anyone to know it.

By the way since a huge portion of the incorporeal creatures are souls or shadows it means you should remove your soul and your shadow because it is "gross" to have a soul or a shadow since you consider it is bad to be incorporeal.

[newguydude1]

ok

does anywhere say shadow creatures (creatures native to plane of shadow) are immortal? theres a template that makes you into a shadow creature at +2.

3.0 pseudonatural creature has an la, but the 3.5 version doesnt from lords of madness. boo.

the best template i found is dust-stuffed from explorers handbook. +5 la and turns me into a construct with the living construct subtype. its absolutely hilarious that its own sample dust-stuffed creature didnt change its type to construct. man who makes these stat blocks.

i guess these are my only options. template stacking into a spell warped fire element creature, dust-stuffed creature, or hopefully someone will find a piece of lore that shadow creatures are immortal.

[Segev]

Either wish to become an elan with all your memories and levels intact, or with that you can retain all your memories and levels when you become one and undergo the transformation ritual. (If you’re not human and playing in 3.5, you’ll have to do the former.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Either wish to become an elan with all your memories and levels intact, or with that you can retain all your memories and levels when you become one and undergo the transformation ritual. (If you’re not human and playing in 3.5, you’ll have to do the former.)You could always store your memories (ie, XP) in a thought bottle, undergo a regular elan ritual, and then recover your XP. Or you could do the thought bottle and wish for the transformation.

If the thought bottle doesn't work after elanification for whatever reason, you could always use the wish to undo the transformation, I guess.

[newguydude1]

Either wish to become an elan with all your memories and levels intact, or with that you can retain all your memories and levels when you become one and undergo the transformation ritual. (If you’re not human and playing in 3.5, you’ll have to do the former.)

how does that let me retain illumian naenhoon?

[Segev]

how does that let me retain illumian naenhoon?

Ah, it doesn't. I missed what race you started as and that you were trying to retain it.

If you are willing to go pretty evil, you could make a ton of living zombies (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/livingzombie.shtml) to slow your aging to a crawl. (See the Life Leech ability.)

It's going to require regular repetition, but clone can be used to keep yourself at more or less the same age. Grow the clone now, preserve it for years, and then when you're uncomfortably old, kill yourself and revive in the clone that is the age you were when you created it. You can discuss with your DM the option of deliberately halting the clone at a younger age than you are now; this isn't an explicit option in 3e, though in 5e it is and I think in 2e and 1e the clone's 2d4 month growth time being interrupted led to the same result (though I could be misremembering).

[newguydude1]

Ah, it doesn't. I missed what race you started as and that you were trying to retain it.

If you are willing to go pretty evil, you could make a ton of living zombies (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/livingzombie.shtml) to slow your aging to a crawl. (See the Life Leech ability.)

It's going to require regular repetition, but clone can be used to keep yourself at more or less the same age. Grow the clone now, preserve it for years, and then when you're uncomfortably old, kill yourself and revive in the clone that is the age you were when you created it. You can discuss with your DM the option of deliberately halting the clone at a younger age than you are now; this isn't an explicit option in 3e, though in 5e it is and I think in 2e and 1e the clone's 2d4 month growth time being interrupted led to the same result (though I could be misremembering).

steal life does it better but i dont like it because it needs full moon for some reason, and being imprisoned for a century is a thing in d&d. i'm looking for no strings attached immortality that has no weaknesses like hide life does, is not undead because i hate corpses, not incorporeal because if you wander into a dead magic zone your adventuring career ends right there, and lets me retain illumian naenhoon.

if it werent for the last part id just turn myself into a succubus because a fiend is explicitly immortal with no strings attached. but after spying my eye on persistent suffer the flesh, i want persistent naenhoon even after i got free wishes.

but........... i just realized that i could probably just use an 8th level spell slot and cast persistent suffer the flesh directly. lol.

still though, i am interested in what im seeking in this thread. but it seems like even in the vastness of d&d 3.5, what im looking for doesnt exist without template stacking. so many people here pitching their ideas and none of them fit the bill means that what im looking for is impossible. sucks.

[Doctor Despair]

still though, i am interested in what im seeking in this thread. but it seems like even in the vastness of d&d 3.5, what im looking for doesnt exist without template stacking. so many people here pitching their ideas and none of them fit the bill means that what im looking for is impossible. sucks.

Well, it does exist... It's just in Dragon. :P Wedded to History fits the bill if you can get your DM on board.

[Segev]

steal life does it better but i dont like it because it needs full moon for some reason, and being imprisoned for a century is a thing in d&d. i'm looking for no strings attached immortality that has no weaknesses like hide life does, is not undead because i hate corpses, not incorporeal because if you wander into a dead magic zone your adventuring career ends right there, and lets me retain illumian naenhoon.

if it werent for the last part id just turn myself into a succubus because a fiend is explicitly immortal with no strings attached. but after spying my eye on persistent suffer the flesh, i want persistent naenhoon even after i got free wishes.

but........... i just realized that i could probably just use an 8th level spell slot and cast persistent suffer the flesh directly. lol.

still though, i am interested in what im seeking in this thread. but it seems like even in the vastness of d&d 3.5, what im looking for doesnt exist without template stacking. so many people here pitching their ideas and none of them fit the bill means that what im looking for is impossible. sucks.

Can you elaborate why clone doesn't fit the bill? It's even a "get out of death free" card.

Heck, you can have a whole warehouse full of clones all made from the same age point.

[newguydude1]

Can you elaborate why clone doesn't fit the bill? It's even a "get out of death free" card.

Heck, you can have a whole warehouse full of clones all made from the same age point.

too much baggage. i want to be free, not forever chained to my cloning facility. private demiplane or no. i like the full nomad style. not a penny to my name and still be immortal and everything.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you take 15 levels of dragon ascendant, you gain DvR 0. I do believe deities are immortal.

[noob]

If you take 15 levels of dragon ascendant, you gain DvR 0. I do believe deities are immortal.

The problem is that they refused prcs.
So no retraining to get an immortalizing prc.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Too bad Dragon Magazine is off the table. There's an artifact potion that flat-out makes you immortal. And every spell component pouch has one in it.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I thought Faerun had a feat or something for this. :smallconfused:

[Segev]

too much baggage. i want to be free, not forever chained to my cloning facility. private demiplane or no. i like the full nomad style. not a penny to my name and still be immortal and everything.

Can you cast astral projection?

It's a little bit of a hybrid cheat, but having yourself a secure rock you ensconce your body in on the Astral Plane, and then astral projecting to wherever you want to be does two things:

It does the usual obvious trick of making it so that killing you just sends you back to your body, where you can cast the spell again, and
the Astral Plane has the "timeless" quality, so while there, you're not aging (or getting hungry, thirsty, etc.). As long as you don't leave it physically, you will live forever. But yes, your body is vulnerable there and if you're brought to a new place, the time catches up with you all at once. x_x

Immortality without price is very hard in D&D, by design. It's meant to be something that makes it believable that powerful wizards et al would go to extreme lengths to obtain it.

[Doctor Despair]

Can you cast astral projection?

It's a little bit of a hybrid cheat, but having yourself a secure rock you ensconce your body in on the Astral Plane, and then astral projecting to wherever you want to be does two things:

It does the usual obvious trick of making it so that killing you just sends you back to your body, where you can cast the spell again, and
the Astral Plane has the "timeless" quality, so while there, you're not aging (or getting hungry, thirsty, etc.). As long as you don't leave it physically, you will live forever. But yes, your body is vulnerable there and if you're brought to a new place, the time catches up with you all at once. x_x

Immortality without price is very hard in D&D, by design. It's meant to be something that makes it believable that powerful wizards et al would go to extreme lengths to obtain it.

Could they use Astral Projection and encase their original body in quintessence and hide it somewhere? Maybe toss on a contingent spell to remove the quintessence upon the astral projection ending?

[newguydude1]

Can you cast astral projection?

It's a little bit of a hybrid cheat, but having yourself a secure rock you ensconce your body in on the Astral Plane, and then astral projecting to wherever you want to be does two things:

It does the usual obvious trick of making it so that killing you just sends you back to your body, where you can cast the spell again, and
the Astral Plane has the "timeless" quality, so while there, you're not aging (or getting hungry, thirsty, etc.). As long as you don't leave it physically, you will live forever. But yes, your body is vulnerable there and if you're brought to a new place, the time catches up with you all at once. x_x

Immortality without price is very hard in D&D, by design. It's meant to be something that makes it believable that powerful wizards et al would go to extreme lengths to obtain it.

i dont mind price. theyre just not selling what im looking for outside of dragon mag which isnt allowed.

astral projection is still baggage and im gonna be doing this near epic which means some guy is gonna silver sword me.

[ApologyFestival]

Those illumian racial traits that you really want to keep are all supernatural, so they're all preserved by the psionic power true mind switch (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm). See:


You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).
So, I think you can satisfy what you want (immortality, while still passing for human, with illumian racial traits) by manifesting true mind switch with a naturally immortal creature. Note that you'd no longer be an illumian, so if any tricks you're doing require using feats that have illumian as a prerequisite, this won't work.

[Jack_Simth]

Step 1: Cast Ice Assassin to get an Aleax of a 17th+ Elan Psion(Telepath).
Step 2: Hand the Ice Assassin a powerstone of True Mind Switch (to bypass the question of whether or not it has spare XP).
Step 3: Have the Ice Assassin use the Powerstone to True Mind switch with you.
Step 4: Voluntarily fail your save.

Singular Enemy is Ex, and stays with the body. Which means you get it.
It using True Mind Switch on you bypasses the Aleax's immunity to mind-affecting for being a construct (and for, you know, having Singular Enemy).

Downsides:
1) THIS IS OVERKILL, and will possibly get you booted from the game if you actually try it.
2) You may or may not inherit the Ice Assassin's inability to gain levels (interaction not specified, DM call).
3) You can't heal very well, and Aleax's Singular Enemy only prevents attacks. Simple hazards (falling when you fail a climb check, getting caught in a forest fire, normal lighting, etcetera) will still hurt you.
4) The ice assassin running your body might now count as the caster of the Ice Assassin spell - you could be stuck obeying a creature that only wants revenge on the original (again: Interaction not specified, DM call).

[One Step Two]

With regards to True Mind Switch, would this be a less overkill method:

Using the corpse of a medium aberration, target it with Polymorph any object to turn it into a living but Int score 0 Elan with whatever desired physical stats you might care for (same size, same kingdom, lower int, duration factor 9+) as the body, then with a powerstone with TMS and using UPD to cast the power.

Or is that shaky RAW?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

With regards to True Mind Switch, would this be a less overkill method:

Using the corpse of a medium aberration, target it with Polymorph any object to turn it into a living but Int score 0 Elan with whatever desired physical stats you might care for (same size, same kingdom, lower int, duration factor 9+) as the body, then with a powerstone with TMS and using UPD to cast the power.

Or is that shaky RAW?It'd need to be a device of PAO so as to be completely immune to things like dispels and AMFs.

[One Step Two]

It'd need to be a device of PAO so as to be completely immune to things like dispels and AMFs.

Ah yes, I knew I was forgetting the Instantaneous duration factor being what makes it immune to dispels. Another useful way would be finding a normal Elan out in the world, hitting them with Programmed Amnesia to make them utterly loyal to you, then using True Mind switch.

[newguydude1]

you dont need ice assassin, you only need simulacrum which is said to be immortal in frostburn and unlike ice assassin can be healed by magic and such, and i did this before in a previous game. also astral seed + mind switch is much cheaper than true mind switch. but my dm isnt using psionics this campaign because he feels it doesnt feel like fantasy to him.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

you dont need ice assassin, you only need simulacrum which is said to be immortal in frostburn and unlike ice assassin can be healed by magic and such, and i did this before in a previous game. also astral seed + mind switch is much cheaper than true mind switch. but my dm isnt using psionics this campaign because he feels it doesnt feel like fantasy to him.So magic isn't fantasy?

Okay.

[One Step Two]

If psionics as a system are not allowed, are you allowed to make use of the spell research rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook), the Independent Research header specifically, to create arcane versions of those powers? An eighth level transmutation spell called "Almost Astral Seed", and a Sixth level Enchantment spell called "I can't believe it's not Mind Switch"?

[Segev]

i dont mind price. theyre just not selling what im looking for outside of dragon mag which isnt allowed.

astral projection is still baggage and im gonna be doing this near epic which means some guy is gonna silver sword me.

For clarity, when I said "without price/cost," I wasn't referring to gp outlay. I was referring to personal cost.

For example, becoming a vampire costs you the ability to go out in the sunlight and makes you need to feed on blood rather than on normal food. Becoming a lich makes you become, well, a corpse/skeleton. Serial clones costs maintaining your repository of cloned bodies.

Becoming an Elan costs you your Illumian Sigils. (Though perhaps you could wish to retain those?)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Perhaps take a level in a savage progression class? Any non-native outsider is (I believe) immortal, so any such template added to an illumian should allow you to keep your sigils and your [illumian] subtype. The same goes with the rituals in Savage Species, I think.

If you're the leader of a group of people of some sort, try taking the Loyalty's Reward feat, from Kingdoms of Kalamar. Make up your own feat to give yourself immortality -- preferably as a side-effect of something else that grants additional benefits, like changing your type to non-native outsider, or allowing you to be considered to be on the Astral Plane at all times.

[hamishspence]

Neraphim from Planar Handbook are Extraplanar Outsiders and have an ageing table - so one can't presume that all Extraplanar Outsiders are immortal. The Outsider type doesn't specifically state that.

Conversely, Rakshasas, which are Native outsiders, are consistently portrayed as immortal - so one can't presume that all Native Outsiders are mortal, either.

So a case-by-case basis is necessary - does the fluff consistently portray this Outsider as immortal? Then it is (devils, for example). Otherwise, it's mortal.

[sreservoir]

if it werent for the last part id just turn myself into a succubus because a fiend is explicitly immortal with no strings attached. but after spying my eye on persistent suffer the flesh, i want persistent naenhoon even after i got free wishes.

but........... i just realized that i could probably just use an 8th level spell slot and cast persistent suffer the flesh directly. lol.

Persistomancy is available via UMD and WBLmancy: setting aside the matter of getting persistent spell (DCFS it in, probably), you can just use a minor schema schema of the 3rd-level artificer infusion metamagic item (6000 gp) can be used to apply persistent spell to a wand (up to 4th), scepter (up to 7th, LEoF 153), or staff (no level limit, but RAW must be of specific types).

To save the cost of the charge (and, incidentally, also the material component), you can save the charge by using soul charge (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040818a) up to 3rd level (though how to get the duration of that spell long enough to stockpile charges is left as an exercise to the reader—I'd like to know too), which is enough for suffer the flesh. Higher-level spells will probably take some feats, probably either channel charge (LEoF 7), or wand surge (MoE 51) combined with some renewable source of action points, probably unfettered heroism (RoE 191), but Prophecy's Hero (MoE 50) basically provides HD/2+Wis action points per day for this purpose and Heroic Devotion (FoE 147) can provide 1/day.

Speaking of which, either Channel Charge or Wand Surge will also let you cast simulacrum out of a scepter (or custom staff) without needing to continually stock up on the material component (and the xp cost), since that was a thing you wanted earlier. The up-front cost for 50 charges is going to be astronomical without some serious cost reduction shenanigans, of course.

Then just go and be a killoren or something.

[Jack_Simth]

Becoming a lich makes you become, well, a corpse/skeleton.The City of the Spider Queen has a Robe of Gentle Repose, which was explicitly used to keep a lich looking lively.

[Venger]

Even without this, liches can polymorph if they want to look different.

[Lord Haart]

I'll try to adress the OP's questions directly, rather than provide alternate solutions like most of the thread does.

The Half-Golem template seems to lack a LA listed, but there's a clear and fully spelled-out way of gaining it, so it should be available to you, if not via Wish, then via obtaining it normally (with appropriate investments and roleplay). If you pass all will saves, it doesn't change your type at all. However, saves can be failed voluntarily, so no matter how high your Will save currently is, it won't prevent you from willingly becoming a "murderous and cruel" Construct of obligatory Neutral Evil alignment, that, however, "retains the memories and knowledge of its former life" and doesn't lose its mental ability scores. So while you'll "demonstrate the hatred of flesh creatures common to elementals, and [will seek] methods appropriate to [your] class to slaughter as many flesh creatures as possible", you won't turn into a mindless machine or lose any of your personality. In return, you are a templated (so all your base race goodies still fly) bona fide Construct with all corresponding properties and immunities; while immortality isn't spelled out directly, having Con- and construct traits pretty much implies it.


While it has been discussed earlier together with Lich etc., a Worm that Walks isn't actually Undead at all, but an Ooze. So while you, once again, won't have a LA and will have to rise from the grave as a mass of wriggling wormy flesh, you'll rise as a mass of living wormy flesh. Nothing will stop you from partaking in pleasures of the… wormy flesh!
As for immortality, the DM may rule the individual worms to be quite mortal; but collectively, as an Ooze, and a non-undead lich knock-off, you are universally assumed to be beyond death's grasp. That said, if your DM is really strict with RAW, that argument has no real legs to stand on.

[newguydude1]

Even without this, liches can polymorph if they want to look different.


its both aesthetic and lore. i dont want to be rotting flesh. i dont want to be a dead corpse moving like a puppet through magic. and i dont want such a thing to be my true form once my polymorph wears off and such. i dont want to be undead. or deathless.


i hate corpses. stop trying to convince me that ill like what i hate. i hate corpses. and i hate polymorph because once its dispelled my true disgusting corpse form will show up. i hate corpses.


I'll try to adress the OP's questions directly, rather than provide alternate solutions like most of the thread does.

The Half-Golem template seems to lack a LA listed, but there's a clear and fully spelled-out way of gaining it, so it should be available to you, if not via Wish, then via obtaining it normally (with appropriate investments and roleplay). If you pass all will saves, it doesn't change your type at all. However, saves can be failed voluntarily, so no matter how high your Will save currently is, it won't prevent you from willingly becoming a "murderous and cruel" Construct of obligatory Neutral Evil alignment, that, however, "retains the memories and knowledge of its former life" and doesn't lose its mental ability scores. So while you'll "demonstrate the hatred of flesh creatures common to elementals, and [will seek] methods appropriate to [your] class to slaughter as many flesh creatures as possible", you won't turn into a mindless machine or lose any of your personality. In return, you are a templated (so all your base race goodies still fly) bona fide Construct with all corresponding properties and immunities; while immortality isn't spelled out directly, having Con- and construct traits pretty much implies it.


While it has been discussed earlier together with Lich etc., a Worm that Walks isn't actually Undead at all, but an Ooze. So while you, once again, won't have a LA and will have to rise from the grave as a mass of wriggling wormy flesh, you'll rise as a mass of living wormy flesh. Nothing will stop you from partaking in pleasures of the… wormy flesh!
As for immortality, the DM may rule the individual worms to be quite mortal; but collectively, as an Ooze, and a non-undead lich knock-off, you are universally assumed to be beyond death's grasp. That said, if your DM is really strict with RAW, that argument has no real legs to stand on.

i havent thought about just grabbing a la - template and never leveling up again. but its not exactly clear that this is what happens. la:- means unsuitable to be a pc so that just might mean by raw dm gets control of my character because it became an npc or something.

[Venger]

While it has been discussed earlier together with Lich etc., a Worm that Walks isn't actually Undead at all, but an Ooze. So while you, once again, won't have a LA and will have to rise from the grave as a mass of wriggling wormy flesh, you'll rise as a mass of living wormy flesh. Nothing will stop you from partaking in pleasures of the… wormy flesh!
As for immortality, the DM may rule the individual worms to be quite mortal; but collectively, as an Ooze, and a non-undead lich knock-off, you are universally assumed to be beyond death's grasp. That said, if your DM is really strict with RAW, that argument has no real legs to stand on.
No they're not. They are aberrations.

Since discorporate specifies that worms breed to consistently replenish your body, fluffwise/rai, they probably are immortal in terms of not dying of old age by ship of Theseusing their bodies continously.


i havent thought about just grabbing a la - template and never leveling up again. but its not exactly clear that this is what happens. la:- means unsuitable to be a pc so that just might mean by raw dm gets control of my character because it became an npc or something.
Templates with LA- cannot be applied to PCs at all. This is separate from templates that make PCs into npcs, such as turning into a vampire via shadow sun ninja.

[Lord Haart]

No they're not. They are aberrations.Huh. Apparently it differs — Ooze in ELH printing, Aberration in SRD. So it's "check with your DM" territory, it seems.


Templates with LA- cannot be applied to PCs at all.Proof? As far as i know, you can't make a character with a LA- template, but if a template spells out explicit ways to obtain it in-game, there's no hidden divine "no PCs allowed" mechanics that would bar a PC from going through the necessary steps. And it's indeed separate from, and therefore doesn't necessary imply, an automatic transition to NPC status.

SRD version of WtW even has a "Worm That Walks Characters" blurb, which isn't just setting stuff because SRD doesn't bother with setting parts of monster write-ups.

[nijineko]

Either wish to become an elan with all your memories and levels intact, or with that you can retain all your memories and levels when you become one and undergo the transformation ritual. (If you’re not human and playing in 3.5, you’ll have to do the former.)

a mind seed combined with a thought bottle can fix the level loss of becoming an Elan... technically.

[Segev]

a mind seed combined with a thought bottle can fix the level loss of becoming an Elan... technically.

And it’s not even evil, since you’re just doing it to yourself. To the new you, it’s just be a few days of muddled memories that slowly become clearer.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do keep in mind that psionics is disallowed because being able to alter reality directly with your mind is apparently not fantastical enough.

[Segev]

Do keep in mind that psionics is disallowed because being able to alter reality directly with your mind is apparently not fantastical enough.

The OP has said this is a DM issue, not his own, so let's not get too snarky about it. I understand the OP's frustration with not being able to find precisely what he wants.

To the OP: Since "being undead" is a no-no for aesthetic reasons (I assume "vampire" falls into the same problems for you, despite looking alive for most intents and purposes), but you said you're willing to pay a price for it, what sorts of sacrifices, costs, or drawbacks to being immortal are you willing to accept?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The OP has said this is a DM issue, not his own, so let's not get too snarky about it. I understand the OP's frustration with not being able to find precisely what he wants. Not a snark at the OP. It's snark at the DM. Just for future reference.

[newguydude1]

The OP has said this is a DM issue, not his own, so let's not get too snarky about it. I understand the OP's frustration with not being able to find precisely what he wants.

To the OP: Since "being undead" is a no-no for aesthetic reasons (I assume "vampire" falls into the same problems for you, despite looking alive for most intents and purposes), but you said you're willing to pay a price for it, what sorts of sacrifices, costs, or drawbacks to being immortal are you willing to accept?

any amount of la. thats pretty much all i got. all my class levels and feats are spoken for. im dweomerkeeper with uncanny forethought so any spell including wish is free for me.

[Venger]

Huh. Apparently it differs — Ooze in ELH printing, Aberration in SRD. So it's "check with your DM" territory, it seems.
ELH is 3.0. It was changed in the 3.5 update. If op is playing 3.5, they are aberrations.


Proof? As far as i know, you can't make a character with a LA- template, but if a template spells out explicit ways to obtain it in-game, there's no hidden divine "no PCs allowed" mechanics that would bar a PC from going through the necessary steps. And it's indeed separate from, and therefore doesn't necessary imply, an automatic transition to NPC status.

SRD version of WtW even has a "Worm That Walks Characters" blurb, which isn't just setting stuff because SRD doesn't bother with setting parts of monster write-ups.
That's not how proofs work. You're asserting that it is legal for PCs to take LA- templates, so you must back this up with evidence. I'll save you some time and remind you that this evidence does not exist. It is not possible to prove something does not exist. PCs are unique in their capability to accrue xp, so are restricted to templates that give them a listed LA, so you know how much they earn. LA- templates do not do this. It's like a null value.

Worms that walk as characters is to explain what kinds of npcs a dm may apply this template to, and has a listed xp cost anyway because the designers do not understand basic rules of the game.

[Segev]

any amount of la. thats pretty much all i got. all my class levels and feats are spoken for. im dweomerkeeper with uncanny forethought so any spell including wish is free for me.

Hm. First off, my question about costs is more along the lines of ongoing drawbacks. e.g. "being a corpse" or "being incorporeal" or "having a base you have to protect," which I know you're not willing to pay/deal with. I was asking if there were any similar ones.

Is there any reason a free wish can't be used just to wish yourself young or immortal?

As for templates, I don't think there are any that aren't undead that explicitly grant immunity from dying of old age. Like I said, immortality is deliberately hard in order to make it believable that powerful mortals would be willing to pay the various prices (e.g. being a lich or the like) to achieve it.

[Doctor Despair]

There's also the spell Steal Life, optimized here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618701-Immortality-through-staying-awake-in-bed-all-night-and-incidentally-being-evil&highlight=Immortality) to an extent

[newguydude1]

Hm. First off, my question about costs is more along the lines of ongoing drawbacks. e.g. "being a corpse" or "being incorporeal" or "having a base you have to protect," which I know you're not willing to pay/deal with. I was asking if there were any similar ones.

Is there any reason a free wish can't be used just to wish yourself young or immortal?

As for templates, I don't think there are any that aren't undead that explicitly grant immunity from dying of old age. Like I said, immortality is deliberately hard in order to make it believable that powerful mortals would be willing to pay the various prices (e.g. being a lich or the like) to achieve it.

my dm is raw or die so no homebrew. greater wish that isnt spelled out somewhere like savage species is homebrew.

[Segev]

my dm is raw or die so no homebrew. greater wish that isnt spelled out somewhere like savage species is homebrew.

And wishing for psionic power effects is either homebrew or "not fantasy" to him, right?

[newguydude1]

And wishing for psionic power effects is either homebrew or "not fantasy" to him, right?

psionic power effects, yes.
but you can make 25000gp of nonmagical (aka psionic) item so ive been using that to make power stones of mind switch and astral seed. but like i said he removed psionics for this campaign cause they dont give off a medieval fantasy feel.

[Segev]

psionic power effects, yes.
but you can make 25000gp of nonmagical (aka psionic) item so ive been using that to make power stones of mind switch and astral seed. but like i said he removed psionics for this campaign cause they dont give off a medieval fantasy feel.

Are custom magic items homebrew? Making a magic item that uses invoke magic as a secondary effect to ensure it can survive an AMF, then maybe its own AMF to keep dispel or disjunction out, and making it a permanent magic jar item that lets you transfer your consciousness into it permanently and then possess a target Illumian might work. Heck, make your target a simulacrum of yourself. Have a few dozen of those available. Keep your pseudophylactery magic item in a lead jar (I believe this doesn't block the ability to magic jar in or out of it, but will block most divinations and definitely block the AMF it's radiating) on your person so that if your possessed body dies, you just wind up back in your jar. Then possess somebody else, get yourself to your preferred Illumian body, and swap to that one.

[newguydude1]

Are custom magic items homebrew? Making a magic item that uses invoke magic as a secondary effect to ensure it can survive an AMF, then maybe its own AMF to keep dispel or disjunction out, and making it a permanent magic jar item that lets you transfer your consciousness into it permanently and then possess a target Illumian might work. Heck, make your target a simulacrum of yourself. Have a few dozen of those available. Keep your pseudophylactery magic item in a lead jar (I believe this doesn't block the ability to magic jar in or out of it, but will block most divinations and definitely block the AMF it's radiating) on your person so that if your possessed body dies, you just wind up back in your jar. Then possess somebody else, get yourself to your preferred Illumian body, and swap to that one.

custom magic items are out so are traps. dm knows about tippyverse.

casting magic jar twice to emulate true mind switch iirc the interpretation is ambiguous and my dm ruled on the negatory side of that.

what your suggesting however is life support. im not into life support. i rather be a corpse than be forever reliant on life support and i hate being a corpse.

[Doctor Despair]

custom magic items are out so are traps. dm knows about tippyverse.

casting magic jar twice to emulate true mind switch iirc the interpretation is ambiguous and my dm ruled on the negatory side of that.

what your suggesting however is life support. im not into life support. i rather be a corpse than be forever reliant on life support and i hate being a corpse.

Did you decide against using Steal Life once every full moon to add a few months to your lifespan each time?

[Bronk]

What if, through role playing, make a deal with an immortal wizard (etc.), PAO (or whatever) yourself into an animal and be made a familiar. Then, turn back, and poof... you're no longer eligible to be that person's familiar. However, as an ex familiar, according to Tome of Blood, you'd A: keep the powers of a familiar of the former master's level minus 2, and B: your aging would stay set at the rate of your former master's, so, also immortal.

Then just pop in every now and then, and make sure they stay alive and well.

Alternately, you could, every once in a while, set up a contingent 'last breath' spell (you should be able to get the spell via 'greater anyspell' since you must follow Mystra as a Dweomerkeeper, and use your supernatural spell ability, or just use it with 'limited wish'). Set this up whenever you feel a creaking in your bones, and then start killing yourself and using the contingency to quick reincarnate yourself over and over, taking pauses to refresh your spells and supernatural spells, until you roll a healthy young illumian body again.

[newguydude1]

Did you decide against using Steal Life once every full moon to add a few months to your lifespan each time?

its annoying maintenance that only works if the plane your on has full moons.

but it is my go to spell. i grab it with all my characters including the dweomerkeeper to ensure i will stay alive until level 18. but i want something more permanent.

[Doctor Despair]

its annoying maintenance that only works if the plane your on has full moons.

but it is my go to spell. i grab it with all my characters including the dweomerkeeper to ensure i will stay alive until level 18. but i want something more permanent.

Genesis a fast-time plane that always has a full moon and do it for some indeterminate amount of time to get effectively immortality without needing to ever do it again. Does that assuage your fears of imprisonment?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is it terribly important that you gain immortality in the exact way you want, rather than having, like, a dozen different forms of it that aren't exactly the way you want?

I mean, a device of polymorph any object into a permanent immortal form with Loyalty's Reward to craft a feat called Illumian Heritage that allows you to count as an illumian for your feats et al should work just fine. I mean, it can't be dispelled or disjoined, works in an AMF, dead magic zone, and null magic plane, and it potentially gives you a much, much better body than you could get otherwise. I guess you could have someone else negate the PAO with another casting of PAO, but you'd have the exact same problem that you would have if you got exactly what you wanted but were affected by PAO, except you'd still count as an illumian even if you were a troll or something.

So why is it you want it exactly that way, rather than any of the other ways that are functionally nigh-identical or even better?

[newguydude1]

So why is it you want it exactly that way, rather than any of the other ways that are functionally nigh-identical?

its not identical. not even close. one is true, eternal youth and immortality without any strings attached. the other is just life support corpse walking that anyone with true seeing will see your disgusting rotting true form.

by stacking templates i already got what i want. but i dont want to stack templates unless i absolutely have to so i made this thread to see if there are templates that grant immortality to humanoids that isnt undead or incorporeal.

i rather stack templates than become a corpse or be hooked on life support. so all this stuff you guys keep telling me about how its good to be a corpse, how life support is negligible, and how polymorph despite being pierced by true seeing is totally acceptable, doesnt help. because i rather stack templates than do this.

and i did find a template myself. dust stuffed from explorers handbook. +5 la turns you into a construct stuffed with sand. but there might always be something better so im all ears.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

its not identical. not even close. one is true, eternal youth and immortality without any strings attached. the other is just life support corpse walking that anyone with true seeing will see your disgusting rotting true form.

by stacking templates i already got what i want. but i dont want to stack templates unless i absolutely have to so i made this thread to see if there are templates that grant immortality to humanoids that isnt undead or incorporeal.

i rather stack templates than become a corpse or be hooked on life support. so all this stuff you guys keep telling me about how its good to be a corpse, how life support is negligible, and how polymorph despite being pierced by true seeing is totally acceptable, doesnt help. because i rather stack templates than do this....Did anything I say in my post have anything to do with being a walking corpse? :smallconfused:

And true seeing is hilariously easy to get around.

[noob]

its not identical. not even close. one is true, eternal youth and immortality without any strings attached. the other is just life support corpse walking that anyone with true seeing will see your disgusting rotting true form.

by stacking templates i already got what i want. but i dont want to stack templates unless i absolutely have to so i made this thread to see if there are templates that grant immortality to humanoids that isnt undead or incorporeal.

i rather stack templates than become a corpse or be hooked on life support. so all this stuff you guys keep telling me about how its good to be a corpse, how life support is negligible, and how polymorph despite being pierced by true seeing is totally acceptable, doesnt help. because i rather stack templates than do this.

True seeing does not pierces it if you have mind blank.
So just get a device of mind blank and nobody will see that you were an illuminian and not an elan.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

True seeing does not pierces it if you have mind blank.
So just get a device of mind blank and nobody will see that you were an illuminian and not an elan.That, or a device of permanency + fog cloud on yourself with the Invisible Spell feat applied. Much cheaper than constant mind blank.

[Doctor Despair]

Arguably the God Blooded of Vecna template foils Trueseeing. LA1

[Venger]

What is loyalty's reward? a spell?

Cloak of Khyber is also a useful way to less obtrusively block true seeing.

[noob]

What is loyalty's reward? a spell?

Cloak of Khyber is also a useful way to less obtrusively block true seeing.

loyalty reward is a feat that grants a custom effect in exchange for loyalty toward an entity.

[newguydude1]

i found my own solution.
1. change race with wish to a succubus
2. dcsf assume supernatural ability power sigils and assume supernatural ability illumian words
3. use succubus change shape ability to turn into a specific creature called your original illumian self.

[Venger]

loyalty reward is a feat that grants a custom effect in exchange for loyalty toward an entity.

I'm not familiar with it. What book is it in?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

loyalty reward is a feat that grants a custom effect in exchange for loyalty toward an entity.


I'm not familiar with it. What book is it in?It's a feat in Kingdoms of Kalamar that allows you to custom-make your own feat (which you automatically get), as well as to give access to it to the minions in your organization (whatever it happens to be).

[Lord Haart]

That's not how proofs work. You're asserting that it is legal for PCs to take LA- templates, so you must back this up with evidence. I'll save you some time and remind you that this evidence does not exist. It is not possible to prove something does not exist. PCs are unique in their capability to accrue xp, so are restricted to templates that give them a listed LA, so you know how much they earn. LA- templates do not do this. It's like a null value.

Worms that walk as characters is to explain what kinds of npcs a dm may apply this template to, and has a listed xp cost anyway because the designers do not understand basic rules of the game.
I'm not asserting that it is legal for PCs to take LA- templates. I'm asserting that if an acquired (not an inherited, obviously) template lists a specific sequence of in-game events that leads to a character acquiring it, and a given character undergoes these events, then it generally (save DM fiat or other negating factors) acquires that template whether it's a PC or an NPC, and whether the template has LA listed or LA —.

(Just like it's impossible for PC to "take" a Corporeal Instability (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/chaosBeast.htm) effect, yet it can and does occur to PCs unfortunate enough to get hit by a Chaos Beast.)

My assertment is based on the existence of these specific steps to acquire certain LA — templates (complete with costs and experience costs), on a failure of these write-ups to mention any distinction between a PC and a NPC (further backed by existance of other LA — template that do, indeed, make such a distinction, and do so explicitly and without making it a general rule), and on a "specific trumps general" principle with specific ways to acquire a template being, well, specific.

Your reading at this point seems no better backed up, and has an additional preposition of "the designers had to fail to understand their own rules" which, admittedly, is generally provably true as far as all things 3e and 3.5e are concerned, but still raises the complexity of your supposition.



So, by your understanding: if a PC buys or crafts all the necessary Half-Golem parts (let's take Half-Golem as an example because, unlike WtW, it doesn't involve death, so one can't point at it and say "it stops being a PC at the moment it dies"), then begins to attach them, then:
— It keeps being a PC as long as it has at least one save yet to make;
— As soon as the characters is done with the saves, whether by failing any save or by succeeding at each one (since the "you make all the saves, don't become a construct, no personality/motivation/alignment changes" version of the template is still LA —), it immediately stops being a PC?

Meanwhile, Mineralize Warrior (which grants a LA +1 template and enslaves the character to the caster for a year) is A-OK?

If so, i do indeed ask you to provide at least token evidence of this save "you can't prove it isn't so".


As an aside, i'm genuinely curious about your reference to "PCs are unique in their capability to accrue xp", specifically about the implication that being able to acquire XP is a necessary condition for being a PC. Is that actually spelled out anywhere?

[Venger]

Could you explain the difference between a PC taking an LA - template vs acquiring an LA- template with examples of each? I don't think I understand the distinction you're making between them.

You are conflating two separate things. I never said a PC who becomes a half-golem (for example) becomes an NPC. A PC cannot take half-golem or any other LA- template. Allow me to clarify.

There are some templates in the game that explicitly turn a PC into an NPC. One such example is becoming a vampire through shadow sun ninja.

What I am saying, and what RAW is, is that a pc cannot take an LA - template at all. Not that when you take an LA - template, you turn into an NPC.

With your half-golem example, your pc simply would not be able to do it at all and you could make up some fluff explanation about why in order to satisfy your curiosity (PC's blood type isn't compatible or something.) PCs are fundamentally different from npcs in many ways, such as being immune to diplomacy. This is just another example of this.

Mineral warrior has a listed LA of +1, and changes the pc's ecl accordingly. You gain xp more slowly but otherwise behave normally once your year and a day of doing the caster's laundry elapses. (e.g. if you're level 5, you treat youself as level 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#levelAdjustment) when it comes to calculating how much xp you get) If you don't want this to occur during the campaign, put it in your backstory or have your friends kill the guy so you don't have to do chores. Why exactly would the mineral warrior template not be available to PCs? I don't understand your implication.

Once more, you are making an assertion, "pcs can take LA- templates," so the burden of proof is on you to provide any RAW that says this. You can't do this because it doesn't exist. Even if I wanted to, I can't prove a negative.

Since the op's found something that suits his needs, I see no issue with moving the goalposts. As far as xp being something only pcs (and cohorts) get, this is discussed in the section on experience and levels on p58 of the phb.

[Vaern]

I think there's a street in the second circle of hell filled with temples belonging to the souls of revered lawful evil creatures who can potentially be reborn as lesser deities if they gain enough worshipers. Take leadership for some renown and sign a pact with a devil to guarantee a spot on God Street upon death, which may either qualify you or at least get your toe in the door to becoming a rank 0 deity.

[icefractal]

As Bronk mentioned, Reincarnate does this. The problems are threefold:
1) You can't cast spells when you're dead. Solution: Craft Contingent Spell, or allies/minions.
2) Druids might be against this kind of immortality. Solution: Use Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle, Archivist/Artificer/Warlock, or spell research.
3) You don't stay the same race.

The last one is the hardest, and there are three options:
1) Use spell research to research Cyclic Reincarnation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cyclic-reincarnation/) from Pathfinder.
2) Could "I wish that when I reincarnated it would be as the same race" be a Wish? Seems plausible. If not, you could reincarnate and then use Wish to change your type back to the one you want.
3) Spam Last Breath repeatedly until you get the right one. Although if using the chart from the PHB, not all races are on there.

Incidentally I would recommend doing this even if you do operate entirely out of a demiplane. Otherwise you're vulnerable to perma-death if anyone gets you off the demiplane (or changes its traits), because the aging will instantly catch up.

Incidentally this is much easier in PF because Witches can reincarnate and many of them will happily violate the natural order for sufficient payment. They can also bring people from millennia ago back to life (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/hexes/grand-hexes/death-interrupted-su/).

[sreservoir]

Huh. Apparently it differs — Ooze in ELH printing, Aberration in SRD. So it's "check with your DM" territory, it seems.

It's in the 3.5e update/errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata).

[hamishspence]

Huh. Apparently it differs — Ooze in ELH printing, Aberration in SRD. So it's "check with your DM" territory, it seems.



ELH is 3.0. It was changed in the 3.5 update. If op is playing 3.5, they are aberrations.


The Worm that Walks is an Aberration in the printed ELH too.

It's the Ruin Swarm that was changed from an Ooze to a Vermin Swarm. I believe it's that, which people were thinking of, when they thought of a ELH monster that used to be an Ooze and isn't anymore.

[Venger]

It's also possible he thought of worm that walks's no discernible anatomy ability and thought it was an ooze for that reason.

[Lord Haart]

The Worm that Walks is an Aberration in the printed ELH too.

It's the Ruin Swarm that was changed from an Ooze to a Vermin Swarm. I believe it's that, which people were thinking of, when they thought of a ELH monster that used to be an Ooze and isn't anymore.


It's also possible he thought of worm that walks's no discernible anatomy ability and thought it was an ooze for that reason.

It's also possible that i thought, on the basis of checking one myself, that there are printings of EH where the Worm that Walks actually is an Ooze. While i can't provide the book for obvious reasons, the existence of such printings are evidenced, say, by this (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/lets-read-the-epic-level-handbook-mod-permission-to-go-to-2500-posts.821924/page-138#post-21827498) Let's Read.



What I am saying, and what RAW is, is that a pc cannot take an LA - template at all. Not that when you take an LA - template, you turn into an NPC.

With your half-golem example, your pc simply would not be able to do it at all and you could make up some fluff explanation about why in order to satisfy your curiosity (PC's blood type isn't compatible or something.) PCs are fundamentally different from npcs in many ways, such as being immune to diplomacy. This is just another example of this.Diplomacy specifies PC/NPC distinction explicitly. The game runs on a default assumption that PCs and NPCs are treated similarly where not noted otherwise.

Is there anything about "making up some fluff explanation about why" in the rulebooks, or is that your own conclusion?

So far, it seems your reading of the rules might force the DM to sacrifice versimilitude/established game facts (if it's been established — as it is in the default setting — that "attaching half-golem parts makes you a half-golem", then a PC attempts it and suddenly it has to turn out that there are exceptions), player agency (what if the player tries to become a half-golem intentionally, and you give her/him your "blood type isn't compatible" explanation, and the player uses True Polymorph or True Body Switch to a known golem-viable NPC's body to circumvent that? How long will you make the chain of excuses?), overall rules transparency, and be forced to half-ass an explanation the books fail to provide, all in name of enforcing a general rule ("a pc cannot take an LA - template") over a specific rule ("Each time a limb is attached to his or her body, the recipient makes a Will save (…) A character who succeeds at all the saves he or she is required to make takes on the attributes of a half-golem (…) As soon as the character fails one of these required saves, he or she becomes a half-golem of neutral evil alignment.")

All the other reading requires is to take the rules at the face value: if certain stuff is done to a character, certain stuff happens.

I'm extremely unconvinced so far.


As far as xp being something only pcs (and cohorts) get, this is discussed in the section on experience and levels on p58 of the phb.I've checked this section. It describes how XP works for (player) characters, how XP is obtained etc. It doesn't mention anything about being able to obtain XP being mandatory.

(As an aside, what's your stance on Hairy Spider, which is a playable LA +0 race with Int —, and therefore unable to gain XP or take class levels?)


{Scrubbed} no one else seems interested in chiming in, so i'll probably put the matter to rest unless you, or someone else, reveal something new on the matter.