Disappointed in multi class

[Spankinstein]

I’ve recently reached 9th level in my Conquest Paladin. Looking down the road, my core concept being complete, I’d prefer more spell casting options over the future Paladin abilities. So I looked into taking some levels in sorcerer to nearly double my spell slots, to power my smites and cast additional fears. Then I found the multi class spell slots per level chart and had a WTF moment. Am I the only one that finds it a huge buzzkill that after adding three levels of sorcerer you only get 1 additional slot. Maybe I’m reading this wrong (I hope). Think I’d rather just stick with Paladin.

[stoutstien]

Spell slot limits are a hard(ish) threshold to maintain some form of balance. If you are looking to nap extra low level slots and have a few short rests a day then warlock is an option.

[OldTrees1]

I’ve recently reached 9th level in my Conquest Paladin. Looking down the road, my core concept being complete, I’d prefer more spell casting options over the future Paladin abilities. So I looked into taking some levels in sorcerer to nearly double my spell slots, to power my smites and cast additional fears. Then I found the multi class spell slots per level chart and had a WTF moment. Am I the only one that finds it a huge buzzkill that after adding three levels of sorcerer you only get 1 additional slot. Maybe I’m reading this wrong (I hope). Think I’d rather just stick with Paladin.

Paladin 9
4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd level slots

Paladin 9 + Sorcerer 3 = 9/2 + 3 = 4 + 3 = 7
4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 1 4th level slots

So that is +1 3rd and +1 4th level slots. It is not "doubling" but it is a new level of slots.

An alternative to consider is Warlock 5. Now you get some 3rd level slots that recharge on a short rest. Assuming 2 short rests per day that is +6 3rd level slots. If you go this route then you will probably end up as Paladin 13 / Warlock 7, or Paladin 11 / Warlock 9, or Paladin 12 / Warlock 8

[Houster]

It depends on the (full)caster level you are getting to. Earlier caster levels are worth more slots. Pal 9 is a 5th level of full caster. You are just past the levels that can snag 2-3 slots per level (3rd and 5th caster level).
For you- i'd reckon it really does not pay off to take casters just to have more slots. You do, however, gain access to spells like shield, absorb elements, misty step, fly etc... No wrong choice here really.

I'd multiclass for spell slots if i'm 6th or 7th level paladin.

[RogueJK]

It's a byproduct of the "rounding down" of spellcaster level for half-caster Paladins that multiclass, and how it interacts with multiclass spell progression. At 9th level you're effectively a 5th level spellcaster as a Paladin, but are only getting credit as a 4th level spellcaster for spell slots when multiclassing.

So if you multiclass out of Paladin at odd levels, the first level of a full spellcasting class like Sorcerer gets you no additional spell slot benefit. It just puts you right back where you were as a single-classed Paladin with regards to spell slots.


There are further spell slot quirks if you multiclass out of a half caster Paladin into a full caster like Sorcerer/Bard at even higher levels, when you start getting up into 6th+ level slots.

For example, a 20th character level Paladin 15/Sorcerer 5, P16/S4, or P17/S3 has the same spell slots as a 17th character level Paladin 12/Sorcerer 5 or Paladin 11/Sorcerer 6. And the Paladin 18/Sorcerer 2 and P19/S1 have even fewer spell slots.

So basically, when multiclassing past 12th, the Paladin levels at 13+ don't gain you any more spell slots overall. Unless you want the 13+ level Paladin abilities more than you want higher level spells slots, you're better off stopping at/before Paladin 12. This would involve going Paladin 12/Sorcerer 8 for 7th level spell slots and 4th level spells known, or P11/S9 for 7th level slots and 5th level spells known if you don't want/need the extra ASI, or 10/10 for 8th level spell slots and 5th level spells known if you don't want/need Improved Divine Smite, or P9/S11 for 8th level slots and 6th level spells known if you don't need Aura of Courage.

[Segev]

It's a byproduct of the "rounding down" of spellcaster level for half-caster Paladins, and how it interacts with multiclass spell progression. At both 9th and 10th, you're effectively a 5th level spellcaster.

So if you multiclass out of Paladin at odd levels, the first level of a full spellcasting class like Sorcerer gets you no additional spell slot benefit.


There are further quirks if you multiclass out of a half caster Paladin into a full caster like Sorcerer at even higher levels, when you start getting up into 6th+ level slots.

For example, a Paladin 12/Sorcerer 5 has the same spell slots as a Paladin 15/Sorcerer 5. When multiclassing past 12th, the Paladin levels don't gain you any more spell slots.

Technically, doesn't that mean it's rounding up, not down, for Paladins? If a 9th level Paladin as a half-caster is a 5th level caster, he's essentially getting half a caster level for "free." Which overlaps with the full caster level he gets from Sorcerer.

I suppose what's happening is the paladin rounds up single-classed, and rounds down multi-classed, for how many spell slots it's contributing.

[RogueJK]

I suppose what's happening is the paladin rounds up single-classed, and rounds down multi-classed, for how many spell slots it's contributing.

Correct. That's a better/simpler way to put it.

[CTurbo]

You really need 5 levels of Sorcerer to start seeing a big difference when comparing how many times you can cast Fear.

Paladin 14 can cast Fear 4 times per long rest.
Paladin 9/Sorc 5 can cast Fear 8 times per long rest.
Paladin 9/Warlock 5 can cast Fear 2 times per long rest plus 2 times per short rest.

You'd have to benefit from a lot of short rests to make the Warlock worth it over Sorcerer(or Bard). The short rest slots are nice but the Sorcerer is more flexible with sorcy points. The Sorcerer option just about doubles your 1st level slots.

So yeah just 3 levels doesn't give you much, but 5 or more levels do for sure.

I like Shadow Sorcerer for Conquest Paladin. Strength of the Grave is great for Paladins and the Shadow Hound is pretty flavorful for Conquests.

[cutlery]

I’ve recently reached 9th level in my Conquest Paladin. Looking down the road, my core concept being complete, I’d prefer more spell casting options over the future Paladin abilities. So I looked into taking some levels in sorcerer to nearly double my spell slots, to power my smites and cast additional fears. Then I found the multi class spell slots per level chart and had a WTF moment. Am I the only one that finds it a huge buzzkill that after adding three levels of sorcerer you only get 1 additional slot. Maybe I’m reading this wrong (I hope). Think I’d rather just stick with Paladin.

First, some caster levels are "dead" as far as new slots are concerned.

Second, 1/2 and 1/3 casters round up as a single class, but round down as a multi class - so it is possible to gain nothing at your first level of a multiclass.

9th level paladin slots:

c432 (as if a 5th level caster; you've rounded up!)

9th pal/1 sor:

c432 (as if a 5th level caster, you've rounded paladin levels down to 4 and added 1 full caster level - you have a "dead" level of paladin now)

9th pal/2 sor:

c433 (as if 6th level full caster - this isn't a great level for them)


9th pal/3 sor:

c4331 (as if a 7th level full caster)

a 9pal/3sor is now effectively ahead of a pure paladin in slots. A pure paladin 12 only has c433 slots.


At this point more sorcerer levels will pull well ahead of a pure paladin in terms of slots. You can also add one more paladin level and gain, also, as going from pal9 to pal10 coverts that "dead" level; 1/2 of 9 rounded down is 4, but 1/2 of 10 rounded down is 5.

If you had mutliclassed after Pal8 or Pal10 you wouldn't feel the effects of a dead level, in terms of spellcasting; but the move from casting as 5th to casting as 6th level would still be modest (c432 to c433 slots).

[Spankinstein]

Very interesting. Thanks for doing the math. Im not sure what level we are playing till, but I’d assume 15th. I went sword and board, and took Shield Master, DM allowing the bonus shove prior to my attacks. I’m still considering sorcerer. Which do you think is more fun?

[KorvinStarmast]

Very interesting. Thanks for doing the math. Im not sure what level we are playing till, but I’d assume 15th. I went sword and board, and took Shield Master, DM allowing the bonus shove prior to my attacks. I’m still considering sorcerer. Which do you think is more fun?

An advantage of going warlock is that you can get hex, which can also help with your shoves with that shield. :) The opponent has disadvantage if you target strength with the hex. You'll knock a few more of them over starting on round 2, if Hex stays up.

The Ranged attack (Eldritch Blast) will also be nice for when you need it. Which Patron? They are all fine, though I really like Celestial and ArchFey: personal taste though.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It's a byproduct of the "rounding down" of spellcaster level for half-caster Paladins that multiclass, and how it interacts with multiclass spell progression. At 9th level you're effectively a 5th level spellcaster as a Paladin, but are only getting credit as a 4th level spellcaster for spell slots when multiclassing.

So if you multiclass out of Paladin at odd levels, the first level of a full spellcasting class like Sorcerer gets you no additional spell slot benefit. It just puts you right back where you were as a single-classed Paladin with regards to spell slots.


There are further spell slot quirks if you multiclass out of a half caster Paladin into a full caster like Sorcerer/Bard at even higher levels, when you start getting up into 6th+ level slots.

For example, a 20th character level Paladin 15/Sorcerer 5, P16/S4, or P17/S3 has the same spell slots as a 17th character level Paladin 12/Sorcerer 5 or Paladin 11/Sorcerer 6. And the Paladin 18/Sorcerer 2 and P19/S1 have even fewer spell slots.

So basically, when multiclassing past 12th, the Paladin levels at 13+ don't gain you any more spell slots overall. Unless you want the 13+ level Paladin abilities more than you want higher level spells slots, you're better off stopping at/before Paladin 12. This would involve going Paladin 12/Sorcerer 8 for 7th level spell slots and 4th level spells known, or P11/S9 for 7th level slots and 5th level spells known if you don't want/need the extra ASI, or 10/10 for 8th level spell slots and 5th level spells known if you don't want/need Improved Divine Smite, or P9/S11 for 8th level slots and 6th level spells known if you don't need Aura of Courage.

This. I have a Ranger at the moment with a similar issue. I'm taking more martial levels as Ranger 10/ Druid/ Cleric 1 are all pretty useless. That said I think Aura of Courage is excellent when it comes into play; we've had a couple of fights in tier 3 where this was a game changer. So that said, now that you've taken Paladin 9 I'd say take Paladin 10 if you are going to continue as a caster.

[RogueJK]

So that said, now that you've taken Paladin 9 I'd say take Paladin 10 if you are going to continue as a caster.

Yes, unless you really want Sorcerer spells and metamagic ASAP and/or you know you're going to 20th level and are dead-set on getting some 6th level spells known at 20th level.

And if you go 10, might as well go 11 for Improved Divine Smite.

And if you go 11, you might as well go 12 for an extra ASI.

And by the time you get to 12 you might just decide that you don't really need Sorcerer levels.

The natural multiclass breakpoints for a Paladin switching to Sorcadin come down to 2 if just dipping Paladin and focusing primarily on Sorcerer levels with Booming Blade + Smite, then basically 6 for most Oaths, 7 or 8 for Ancients (and some Vengeance with PAM/Sentinel), and 9 or 12 for Conquest.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, unless you really want Sorcerer spells and metamagic ASAP and/or you know you're going to 20th level and are dead-set on getting some 6th level spells known at 20th level.

And if you go 10, might as well go 11 for Improved Divine Smite.

And if you go 11, you might as well go 12 for an extra ASI.

And by the time you get to 12 you might just decide that you don't really need Sorcerer levels.

The natural multiclass breakpoints for a Paladin switching to Sorcadin come down to 2 if just dipping Paladin and focusing primarily on Sorcerer levels with Booming Blade + Smite, then basically 6 for most Oaths, 7 or 8 for Ancients (and some Vengeance with PAM/Sentinel), and 9 or 12 for Conquest.

9 is also a good stopping point if you want Aura of Vitality for healing. By level 12 you can have Sorc 3 for Extended Aura of Vitality, which is super-healing. 140 HP of healing out of a 3rd level spell slot, plus access to spells like Shield, Blur, Enlarge, and Booming Blade, makes you a fantastic tank.

[Merudo]

And by the time you get to 12 you might just decide that you don't really need Sorcerer levels.


Level 1 Sorcerer gets you Shield + Absorb Elements + 4 cantrips.

If you go Divine Soul you get access to Guidance, and the Favored by the Gods ability (adds 2d4 to a saving throw or attack roll once per rest - this rivals the Lucky feat in power).

There are very few Paladin levels that can compare to what you get for a dip in Divine Soul - basically there is level 5, 6, and 18, plus maybe 7/15/20 depending on your oath.

[PirateMonk]

it is possible to gain nothing at your first level of a multiclass

If you have seven levels of Eldritch Knight and you multiclass to paladin or ranger, don't you technically lose 2nd level spells and a 1st level slot?

[MaxWilson]

If you have seven levels of Eldritch Knight and you multiclass to paladin or ranger, don't you technically lose 2nd level spells and a 1st level slot?

No, because Paladin 1 does not have the Spellcasting feature, so the multiclassed spellcaster rules do not yet apply.

[Hytheter]

If you have seven levels of Eldritch Knight and you multiclass to paladin or ranger, don't you technically lose 2nd level spells and a 1st level slot?

As someone pointed out, Ranger and Paladin don't have spellcasting until level 2. However, the Artificer is a half-caster that gets its casting right out of the gate, so you would technically lose slots by multiclassing into Artificier.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Level 1 Sorcerer gets you Shield + Absorb Elements + 4 cantrips.

If you go Divine Soul you get access to Guidance, and the Favored by the Gods ability (adds 2d4 to a saving throw or attack roll once per rest - this rivals the Lucky feat in power).

There are very few Paladin levels that can compare to what you get for a dip in Divine Soul - basically there is level 5, 6, and 18, plus maybe 7/15/20 depending on your oath.

On paper that sounds great. However, in play I wonder how much use much of this is. Every Paladin I've played with is consistently running tight on resources, and while those are good 1st level spells, high level Paladins are getting good use from smites anyway. I'd be using both Shield and AE very situationally, not spamming as with other characters. Favored by the Gods is great when you need it, but Paladins are the least likely characters to miss saving throws between the immunities and bonuses, and ours generally go many game sessions without missing something critical. Likely to be using this more like a Precision Attack from a Battlemaster, a comparison I'd make in this case rather than Lucky. Guidance is great, but likely someone else already has it and how many times do you need multiple characters to have a bonus at the same time?.. happens, but not common. I don't hate this idea, but I think it is a lot more balanced with additional Paladin levels than you suggest.

[Lavaeolus]

As someone pointed out, Ranger and Paladin don't have spellcasting until level 2. However, the Artificer is a half-caster that gets its casting right out of the gate, so you would technically lose slots by multiclassing into Artificier.

Not quite: the Artificer multiclassing rules specifically let them halve-then-round-up their level when it comes to spell slots, presumably to avoid this.

[Hytheter]

Not quite: the Artificer multiclassing rules specifically let them halve-then-round-up their level when it comes to spell slots, presumably to avoid this.

Oh, well how about that.

[Pex]

The natural multiclass breakpoints for a Paladin switching to Sorcadin come down to 2 if just dipping Paladin and focusing primarily on Sorcerer levels with Booming Blade + Smite, then basically 6 for most Oaths, 7 or 8 for Ancients (and some Vengeance with PAM/Sentinel), and 9 or 12 for Conquest.

People always say this but leave out level 7 for Devotion. I find immunity to Charm to be a big deal.

[RogueJK]

People always say this but leave out level 7 for Devotion. I find immunity to Charm to be a big deal.

Yes, I forgot about Devotion's ability. That can be useful depending on the campaign, especially for non-elves.

Oathbreaker is another that is worth holding out past 6. 7 for the +CHA to damage for you and your undead/fiend allies. 8 for the ASI. 9 if you're not going Divine Soul and want to Animate Dead. Then like Conquest, if you've already gone 9, you're probably tempted to go 12. (But Oathbreakers are fairly uncommon due to the nature of the class).

[MaxWilson]

Yes, I forgot about Devotion's ability. That can be useful depending on the campaign, especially for non-elves.

Oathbreaker is another that is worth holding out past 6. 7 for the +CHA to damage for you and your undead/fiend allies. 8 for the ASI. 9 if you're not going Divine Soul and want to Animate Dead. Then like Conquest, if you've already gone 9, you're probably tempted to go 12.

Why would you be tempted to go to 12? You'll lose out on your 11th level ability in your other class, or if you go 9/2 you'll lose out on 5th level spells. Going to 12 gets you immunity to fear (not as big of a deal as immunity to charm, especially if you have a good ranged attack from going warlock 2), an extra 2d8 (9) damage per round from Improved Divine Smite (which you don't care about because you'll be doing way more damage than that with Eldritch Blast), and an extra feat. Feats are good, but I can think of lots of 3 level dips that are more attractive than fear immunity and an extra feat. Warlock 2/Divine Soul 1, or Divine Soul 3, are both very attractive.

[Waazraath]

I’ve recently reached 9th level in my Conquest Paladin. Looking down the road, my core concept being complete, I’d prefer more spell casting options over the future Paladin abilities. So I looked into taking some levels in sorcerer to nearly double my spell slots, to power my smites and cast additional fears. Then I found the multi class spell slots per level chart and had a WTF moment. Am I the only one that finds it a huge buzzkill that after adding three levels of sorcerer you only get 1 additional slot. Maybe I’m reading this wrong (I hope). Think I’d rather just stick with Paladin.

Totally agree. I think many multiclass options are oversold on these boards, espcially for paladin. There is hardly a level at which multiclass is worth it imo. If you fight sword & board (which is often good for pally's) you won't even gonna cast those shields, or you need to take warcaster. Regarding extra smites, it takes a lot of levels to get a little bit of extra, and you loose out on the super special steeds, lots of LOH, extra damage on all attacks, etc. etc. And often on ASI's, while those are great for paladins.

[RogueJK]

an extra 2d8 (9) damage per round from Improved Divine Smite (which you don't care about because you'll be doing way more damage than that with Eldritch Blast)

EB is a great ranged backup option for a Paladin, but won't be your go-to attack option on an Oathbreaker, who wants to be on the front lines, bolstering their allies and minions with their short-range auras, and maximizing use of their Dreadful Aspect.

And importantly, you can't Smite with Eldritch Blast.

Besides, melee attacks from an Oathbreaker 11 do more damage than Eldritch Blast from an Oathbreaker 9/Warlock 2.

O11 Longsword = 2x 1d8+1d8+STRMOD+CHAMOD. With 18/18 or 20/16 STR/CHA that'd be an average of 34 damage per round, and 38 if you have the Dueling fighting style.

O11 Greatsword = 2x 2d6+1d8+STRMOD+CHAMOD. With 18/18 or 20/16 STR/CHA that'd be an average of 39 damage per round. (Actually slightly higher average if you have the Great Weapon Fighting Style to reroll 1s and 2s, but I don't know exactly how that shifts the average damage per dice value.)

O11 PAM Glaive = 2x 1d10+1d8+STRMOD+CHAMOD plus 1x 1d4+1d8+STRMOD+CHAMOD. With 18/18 or 20/16 that'd be an average of 51 damage per round. (And slightly higher average if you have the Great Weapon Fighting Style.)

O11 PAM Spear/Shield = 2x 1d6+1d8+STRMOD+CHAMOD plus 1x 1d4+1d8+STRMOD+CHAMOD. With 18/18 or 20/16 that'd be an average of 47 damage per round, and 53 if you have the Dueling fighting style.

O9/W2 Agonizing Eldritch Blast = 3x 1d10+CHAMOD. Even with 20 CHA that'd only be an average of 31.5 damage per round.

Additional Smite damage tacked on to the O11's melee attacks further widens the damage gap. As would Great Weapon Master for the Glaive or Greatsword.

It's only when you get to level 17+ with the 4th ray for another 10.5 damage that the Agonizing Eldritch Blast outdamages the non-PAM melee by a few points, and only when you totally discount the melee's significant Smite damage from the equation, as well as Great Weapon Master. And no matter what, a PAM Oathbreaker 11+ outdamages even a 17+ Eldritch Blast, before Smite or GWM is even considered.