Wild magic sorcerer fix- your opinion please!

[Houster]

Well it's a common opinion that this has a lot of potential and needs fixing. I thought about some fun stuff for it. Tell me what you think: (I put some * marks so you can see changes that hide in effects that are similar to the WotC version)

Wild magic sorcerer
*To cast spells, Other spellcasters use the weave. For better or worse, when you cast spells, the weave uses you.*
Your innate magic comes from the wild forces of chaos that underlie the order of creation. You might have endured exposure to some form of raw magic, perhaps through a planar portal leading to Limbo, the Elemental Planes, or the mysterious Far Realm.


-Wild Magic Surge-

Starting when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, *you must roll a d20*. If you roll a *20*, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect.

(I kept the same wild magic table as the PHB)

-Tides of Chaos-

Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

Any time before you regain the use of this feature, *when you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table for a spell you cast, You regain the use of this feature.*


-Conjure wild surge-

When you gain 6th level in this class, you gain the following feature, which has two uses:

-Whenever you see or hear a creature other than yourself casting a spell, you may use your reaction to distort the weave around it. The creature must make a charisma saving throw, the DC equals your spell DC. If it fails, you roll for it in the wild magic table to create a random magical effect. You may also spend 2 sorcery points to roll again and choose what roll takes effect.

-Whenever you cast a spell of 1st level or higher, you may choose to roll on the wild magic table to create a random magical effect. You do not regain your use of tides of chaos when rolling in the table this way. Do not roll a d20 as per "wild magic surge" when choosing to use this feature.

You may use this feature a number of times equal to your charisma modifier(minimum of 1), and you regain all uses whenever you finish a long rest.
(Each option costs a use)


-Chaos sphere-

When you gain 14th level in this class, you gain the following feature:
As an action, you may spend 3 sorcery points to create a 20 foot sphere, centered around any point you can see within 60 feet from you. you may use a bonus action to move the sphere within said range.
All spells cast in the sphere causes wild magic surges. Any creature casting a spell in the sphere must roll on the wild magic table to create a random magical effect. Whenever a wild magic surge take effect as a result of the sphere, you may spend 2 sorcery points to cause the rolling creature to roll again. You choose the result.
The sphere lasts for 1 minute.
When you use this feature again, any previous sphere you created ceases to exist immediately.


-Spell bombardment-

When you gain 18th level in this class you gain the following feature:
Whenever you cast a spell of 5th level or lower that does not require concentration(excluding cantrips), and roll a wild magic surge of 50 and higher ,you may choose to cast the spell again at the same target/area, causing the effects to occur twice. You do not spend another spell slot or additional materiel components.
You may use this feature a number of times equal to your charisma modifier(minimum of 1), and you regain all uses whenever you finish a long rest.



Attempted goals-
Make a lot of wild surge rolls, but not a million.
Make this subclass more powerful, but not gamebreaking.
Make this subclass a lot more fun.

Questions-
Does this subclass makes the game slug because the additional rolls?
Are any of the features too strong or game breaking?

Share your thoughts!

[Samayu]

The problem with wild magic is that surges are not a feature so much as a bug. At least not until you get to roll twice on the chart. Until then, they're too random to take advantage of - it's more for fun than power. So this wouldn't make me more likely to choose Wild Mage unless I was already predisposed to take it in the first place. Because this has way more wildness than before.

Second problem is that too often, wild mage players tend to dominate play because surges are going on all the time, and annoying the heck out of everyone else. This bumps that up a notch or two. So as a DM, I'm might be inclined to deny this subclass variant.

Spending two points to reroll a surge sounds handy, if expensive. But it could be vital if the roll is very bad. So that feature is a plus.

[CTurbo]

I think The Wild Magic Sorcerer is hugely misunderstood and much MUCH better than most people give it credit for. It doesn't need THAT much revision. If anything, the biggest problem with the class is the clunky wording of some features which leads to DMs and players not playing it correctly.

Tides of Chaos is great when used properly. It just needs to be reworded.

Bend Luck is a good solid ability. If I were to nitpick, I'd make it start at 1d4 and improve to 2d4 at higher levels.

Controlled Chaos is simple yet so effective. This nearly eliminates the negative effects on the Wild Surge table.

Spell Bombardment is a truly terrible feature. THIS is the problem with this subclass. This would be a poor feature at level 3. It's EASILY the worst level 18 feature in the game IMO. This definitely needs to be revised for sure. I'm not sure what I'd do here. Something for extra damage is probably what's needed, but it has to be far greater than a single extra die. Maybe similar to the Tempest ability to maximize damage on a spell once per short or long rest? Or similar to the Evoker's Overchannel? This is an 18th level ability so it needs to be GOOD.

[Houster]

You are right about the bug. Must find a table that is more significant and has like a third of the options as good ones, third bad, and third funny.
The current one has too much good stuff in it and I wanted to use wild surge to disrupt other creatures, that's not likely to happen with current table.

But I think the extra wildness and the ability to re roll it makes it more useful and desireble. Like flipping a coin for heads 100 times until you get heads. I intended to make that possible with said changes.

I don't know how to solve that tons of rolls issue, because wild surge=roll, maybe two with my variant.

[Houster]

I think The Wild Magic Sorcerer is hugely misunderstood and much MUCH better than most people give it credit for. It doesn't need THAT much revision. If anything, the biggest problem with the class is the clunky wording of some features which leads to DMs and players not playing it correctly.

Tides of Chaos is great when used properly. It just needs to be reworded.

Bend Luck is a good solid ability. If I were to nitpick, I'd make it start at 1d4 and improve to 2d4 at higher levels.

Controlled Chaos is simple yet so effective. This nearly eliminates the negative effects on the Wild Surge table.

Spell Bombardment is a truly terrible feature. THIS is the problem with this subclass. This would be a poor feature at level 3. It's EASILY the worst level 18 feature in the game IMO. This definitely needs to be revised for sure. I'm not sure what I'd do here. Something for extra damage is probably what's needed, but it has to be far greater than a single extra die. Maybe similar to the Tempest ability to maximize damage on a spell once per short or long rest? Or similar to the Evoker's Overchannel? This is an 18th level ability so it needs to be GOOD.

It's just that surges don't happen(controlled chaos). and bend luck is solid but boring and costly IMO. The ability to have wild surges migrate to other casters interests me a lot. You are right about tides of chaos.

What do you think about my suggestion for spell bombardment?
I thought about bg2 wild surges, when you cast abi-dalzim's horrid wilting and get "spell is casted twice". Spectacular.

[CTurbo]

What do you mean surges don't happen?

I think when played properly, the surge table is rolled often enough. I also think that the surge table should only be rolled when the Sorcerer casts not other creatures.

Your Chaos Sphere is interesting, but seems to controlled for a "Wild" mage.

Your Spell Bombardment is not bad. It's much better than the standard.

[Kylar0990]

What do you mean surges don't happen?

I think when played properly, the surge table is rolled often enough.



The played properly in your statement is often the problem. The DM has to remember to have you roll and even then there is only a 5% that you will then roll on the surge table.

After you use Tides of Chaos the DM can just have you roll directly on the surge table after you caste a spell thus getting around the 5% chance, but even then it's entirely up to the DM whether they want it to happen.

You can easily go through multiple levels without ever rolling on the table.

[CTurbo]

The played properly in your statement is often the problem. The DM has to remember to have you roll and even then there is only a 5% that you will then roll on the surge table.

After you use Tides of Chaos the DM can just have you roll directly on the surge table after you caste a spell thus getting around the 5% chance, but even then it's entirely up to the DM whether they want it to happen.

You can easily go through multiple levels without ever rolling on the table.


Yes it should be.... you use Tides of Chaos, then with the next non cantrip spell you cast, you roll on the surge table. Then you get Tides of Chaos back. Rinse and repeat and you're using Tides of Chaos all the time as well as rolling on your surge table often. If and when the player/DM are on the same page it's not at all disruptive to be rolling all the time.

[noob]

I wonder if that would not also fit in the homebrew section?
Yes it will add a lot of rolls but it should not slow down the game too much.

[Kylar0990]

Yes it should be.... you use Tides of Chaos, then with the next non cantrip spell you cast, you roll on the surge table. Then you get Tides of Chaos back. Rinse and repeat and you're using Tides of Chaos all the time as well as rolling on your surge table often. If and when the player/DM are on the same page it's not at all disruptive to be rolling all the time.

Tides of Chaos
Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one Attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must finish a Long Rest before you can use this feature again.

Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature.

- This is still entirely up to whether the DM wants it to happen.

[CTurbo]

Tides of Chaos
Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one Attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must finish a Long Rest before you can use this feature again.

Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature.

- This is still entirely up to whether the DM wants it to happen.

I know. This is exactly why you talk to your DM before deciding on playing a Wild Sorc to see how he intends on ruling it. You don't play it if he's rarely going to let you roll on your table because it becomes a terrible subclass all thanks to clunky wording.

When 5e was new, my group's first campaign had a Wild Sorc in it and we rolled for stats and all started with pretty good rolls(the Sorc started with 20 Cha) and neither the player nor DM really understood how to rule things so he rarely rolled on the surge table. Even after 4 or 5 levels he had only rolled like twice ever. The player was unhappy with it and we all agreed it was terrible. Finally, we all discussed it and decided to allow a surge table roll and therefor Tides of Chaos use after each and not only did the character immediately get a lot better, it was a lot more fun too.

[Tanarii]

You broke Tides of Chaos. It's really "supposed" to give you a surge after every 1st level or higher spell you cast after using it, then refresh. Unless your DM doesn't understand that's the purpose.

The correct "fix" is to just remove the DM fiat from the statement, and have it happen automatically.

[Amnestic]

My fixes:

Wild Magic Sorcerer rolls 1d20 on every non-cantrip cast. If the roll is equal-to-or-less than the spell's level, a Surge occurs.
Wild Magic Sorcerer automatically has a Surge on the next non-cantrip spell cast after using Tides of Chaos. They then regain use of Tides of Chaos.
Fireball on the wild magic surge table is now replaced with Slow, centred on the caster, affecting the caster and up to five other creatures in the area of effect chosen randomly.

First two takes the surging out of a DM's hands entirely. Depending on spells used you could be using Tides and surging on every single non-cantrip cast. That's what the subclass is meant to do, let them do it.

Third one just gets rid of low level TPKs. Not what I'd call necessary by any stretch but it might get a few fewer glances from your table who've heard horror stories.

[Kireban]

My fixes:

Wild Magic Sorcerer rolls 1d20 on every non-cantrip cast. If the roll is equal-to-or-less than the spell's level, a Surge occurs.
Wild Magic Sorcerer automatically has a Surge on the next non-cantrip spell cast after using Tides of Chaos. They then regain use of Tides of Chaos.
Fireball on the wild magic surge table is now replaced with Slow, centred on the caster, affecting the caster and up to five other creatures in the area of effect chosen randomly.

First two takes the surging out of a DM's hands entirely. Depending on spells used you could be using Tides and surging on every single non-cantrip cast. That's what the subclass is meant to do, let them do it.

Third one just gets rid of low level TPKs. Not what I'd call necessary by any stretch but it might get a few fewer glances from your table who've heard horror stories.

I dont find the fireball as bad as the confusion option for example- It is just the iconic bad option. After the first 4 levels or so your party wont have much problem with it. Slow on the other hand will be a horrible roll in every level, just like the Confusion roll.

[Houster]

You broke Tides of Chaos. It's really "supposed" to give you a surge after every 1st level or higher spell you cast after using it, then refresh. Unless your DM doesn't understand that's the purpose.

The correct "fix" is to just remove the DM fiat from the statement, and have it happen automatically.
True. I totally missed that the dm can force a surge after tides of chaos. I would now do like you suggested and remove the 6th ability that you can cause a surge to your own spells, and remove the above 50roll in spell bombardment, because you have to tide now before you bombard, if you want to purposely cause a bombardment.

What would you do with the d20rolls that happen after spells? Leave it to the dm like the PHB?

And, actually, would this not be a super OP version of the luck feat? You essentially always have a luck point. Tides, cast a spell and surge, tides, spell and surge and so on. Kind of always having advantage on the next d20 roll, only it costs a slot.
I tried to tie the re-up of tides to the d20, so it does not happen all the time. The original also tries to avoid this when they give the dm the option to decide. It's not meant to happen after each cast.

.

[Houster]

My fixes:

Wild Magic Sorcerer rolls 1d20 on every non-cantrip cast. If the roll is equal-to-or-less than the spell's level, a Surge occurs.
Wild Magic Sorcerer automatically has a Surge on the next non-cantrip spell cast after using Tides of Chaos. They then regain use of Tides of Chaos.
Fireball on the wild magic surge table is now replaced with Slow, centred on the caster, affecting the caster and up to five other creatures in the area of effect chosen randomly.

First two takes the surging out of a DM's hands entirely. Depending on spells used you could be using Tides and surging on every single non-cantrip cast. That's what the subclass is meant to do, let them do it.

Third one just gets rid of low level TPKs. Not what I'd call necessary by any stretch but it might get a few fewer glances from your table who've heard horror stories.

This table needs more risks, not less. It's more of a power trip now, with many powerful options.there are like 4 bad options now. That's 8%(each option is 2 numbers), it's fine. And while you did not change the number of risks, you made it less risky now.

Your other fixes again make me ask, like on the last post- is it not too powerful to have on demand advantage from tides all the time?

[Edea]

Not to be a wet blanket, but...the only problem I had with the original Wild Magic subclass was the "DM Fiat" crap. Just take that part out and TBH it's pretty darn good; with that part in however, you simply can't play it unless you're intimately familiar with a DM who's not a bungwipe.

[Tanarii]

What would you do with the d20rolls that happen after spells? Leave it to the dm like the PHB?I ended up making it the players choice. But always roll would be fine. Remember too that it potentially stacks with Tides surges, you can get two surges off a single spell. :smallamused:

For Tides, I think always roll is better than players choice. If they want to be subtle (especially if they want to use Subtle to make their casting unnoticeable) they should plan ahead. Wild Surges are usually not very subtle.


And, actually, would this not be a super OP version of the luck feat? You essentially always have a luck point. Tides, cast a spell and surge, tides, spell and surge and so on. Kind of always having advantage on the next d20 roll, only it costs a slot.
I tried to tie the re-up of tides to the d20, so it does not happen all the time. The original also tries to avoid this when they give the dm the option to decide. It's not meant to happen after each cast.Lucky is a reroll after the fact. Tides is advantage before you roll. Not quite as powerful. And surges are usually beneficial, and should be generally something a Sorc seeks, but there's always a chance they go south.

Mostly though, Sorcs don't usually use that many level 1 spells that have attack rolls. So the advantage on attack rolls is usually a cantrip. Unless you're quickening spells, that means you probably aren't chain casting slots, and there are definitely battles you'll want to do that.

I've definitely seen low level Wild Sorcs cast Chromatic Orb with Tides, which surges and refreshes it after the spell is cast, then do it again next round.

Wild Sorcs are a very nice archetype if they're not starved by the DM. IMO it is meant to trigger a surge after each cast after Tides been used.

[Houster]

Well I get you guys. You are right. I still like the "make other creatures surge", but it's not mandatory. It's just the dm stuff that has to go.
Spell bombardment has to change also, I like mine better.

[Amnestic]

I dont find the fireball as bad as the confusion option for example- It is just the iconic bad option. After the first 4 levels or so your party wont have much problem with it. Slow on the other hand will be a horrible roll in every level, just like the Confusion roll.

What you've said seems like good things to me.

Fireball is overwhelmingly bad early on and not as much of an issue later on.
Slow is kinda bad early and still, roughly, as bad later on.

Balance achieved?

[MoiMagnus]

IMO, this subclass should not have been in the PHB.

You don't put a class in the PHB where its main feature is "you might have random effects, but only when the DM kindly agree to let you roll a d20 and that this d20 rolls a 1".

I understand that some DMs don't like random effects like those one, but then the correct way to proceed is to have the whole subclass be not available by default, and only available if the DM explicitly agrees to (so either in the DMG as an option, or in Elemental Evil's player companion, or any latter book).

[Taevyr]

Our DM uses a wild magic counter to increase the amount of surges: starts the same as a normal wild magic roll, but when a surge doesn't happen, the counter ticks up and the next wild magic roll triggers a surge on a 2 or lower. It resets whenever a rolled surge happens, so Tides of Chaos doesn't reset it.

Gives more surges, and it's quite fun to see that counter go up. I think 5 or 6's the highest it's been thus far.

As for Tides of Chaos, I don't mind DM fiat for when the surge happens, so long as the DM realizes the refreshing & surge is a basic feature of the class. I agree that the main problem here is that you need a competent DM who won't wait an hour of game-time for an "opportune moment", but a good DM can have those surges be regular enough without the player just knowing it'll be after the next spell. Robs a bit of the surprise otherwise.

[Tanarii]

What you've said seems like good things to me.

Fireball is overwhelmingly bad early on and not as much of an issue later on.
Slow is kinda bad early and still, roughly, as bad later on.

Balance achieved?
Replace it with Shatter prior to level 5.

[Kireban]

I ended up making it the players choice. But always roll would be fine. Remember too that it potentially stacks with Tides surges, you can get two surges off a single spell. :smallamused:

For Tides, I think always roll is better than players choice. If they want to be subtle (especially if they want to use Subtle to make their casting unnoticeable) they should plan ahead. Wild Surges are usually not very subtle.

Lucky is a reroll after the fact. Tides is advantage before you roll. Not quite as powerful. And surges are usually beneficial, and should be generally something a Sorc seeks, but there's always a chance they go south.

Mostly though, Sorcs don't usually use that many level 1 spells that have attack rolls. So the advantage on attack rolls is usually a cantrip. Unless you're quickening spells, that means you probably aren't chain casting slots, and there are definitely battles you'll want to do that.

I've definitely seen low level Wild Sorcs cast Chromatic Orb with Tides, which surges and refreshes it after the spell is cast, then do it again next round.

Wild Sorcs are a very nice archetype if they're not starved by the DM. IMO it is meant to trigger a surge after each cast after Tides been used.

The surge from ToC happens after a casting while it is on cooldown. The spell that used the ToC is not supposed to trigger the auto surge as far as I understand it. Only the next one.

[Tanarii]

The surge from ToC happens after a casting while it is on cooldown. The spell that used the ToC is not supposed to trigger the auto surge as far as I understand it. Only the next one.

Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher.

The wild surge and the refresh happen after the spell is cast. So you can use Tides during the casting of a spell, then it refreshes after if it surges.

[Porcupinata]

How common actually is it for the DM to not give surges? I hear about it on the internet, but in real life I've never known a DM not give the roll after every spell and give an auto-surge (not needing a roll) on the next spell after a Tides of Chaos.

Clearly there are internet stories about DMs who refuse to let the player roll for surges after casting, but then internet stories make all sorts of minority situations sound as if they happen all the time.

How common is this in actual play?

[Amnestic]

Replace it with Shatter prior to level 5.

I can see the logic (damage spell for damage spell) but the idea of that surge (and only that surge) upgrading in damage past a level threshold rubs me the wrong way.

If I were to do something like that I'd want to go whole hog and have separate surge tables depending on what level spell was cast - maybe in tiers? 1+2, 3+4, 5+6, 7+8+9? I am, unfortunately, much too lazy to follow through with that idea. And I'm not totally sold on it to begin with.

[sophontteks]

How common actually is it for the DM to not give surges? I hear about it on the internet, but in real life I've never known a DM not give the roll after every spell and give an auto-surge (not needing a roll) on the next spell after a Tides of Chaos.

Clearly there are internet stories about DMs who refuse to let the player roll for surges after casting, but then internet stories make all sorts of minority situations sound as if they happen all the time.

How common is this in actual play?
It's very common because DMs have a lot on their plate. It's not about refusal, it's about remembering. It's a really toxic mechanic that basically requires the player to constantly nag the DM, and it comes off as lazy writing. Like, they couldn't agree on a system so they said "screw it" and left it up to the DM.

The suggestions look good, but you removed bend luck. Why? That's an amazing amd unique metamagic. This kinda ruins the subclass.

[Kireban]

Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher.

The wild surge and the refresh happen after the spell is cast. So you can use Tides during the casting of a spell, then it refreshes after if it surges.

Amm... I dont think this is RAI, but wotc didnt think much before doing anything with this subclass. I understand it as ToC is put on cooldown immidiatly after the casting of the spell that used it, and the immidiat surge happens after a casting while the ToC is on cooldown.

[EroxESP]

I like the flavor of your fixes but it is hard to judge the balance of such a complex change. I always suggest fixing classes/subclasses with the smallest changes you can think of.

All of the Wild Magic Sorcerers subclass features snowball from Wild Magic Surges, but these lack in flavor and frequency. A fix I used (that I think is from Matt Colville) is that each time you roll to see if a Surge happens and don't roll a surge, the number required to trigger a surge increases by 1. This number resets to 1 when you complete a short or long rest or trigger a surge.

This will make surges happen significantly more often (triggering your subclass abilities which benefit you more often) and adds the flavor of a magical balloon filling up ready to burst. It also has the benefit of increasing Wild Magic chance as you level up and can cast more spells between rests, giving the subclass abilities better scale with level.

Its more bookkeeping for the player, though, so to each their own.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I have them roll after EVERY levelled spell unless they can give me a good RP reason that they're able to suppress the surge this time. I also have them roll if they use sorcery points with a cantrip.

[Tanarii]

IMX wild sorcs already yet somewhere between #slots/2 and #slots surges per LR, due to Tides. Closer to the top number at lower levels because theyre so concious of it.

So around 6 surges per LR at level 3, and around 8-12 per LR by level 10, with a potential max of 16.

Thats before the d20 roll for a second surge
IMO its not really necessary to increase the odds of that second surge occuring.

[Malinthas]

As others have said, the primary fix that I want for my Wild Sorcerers is the removal of DM whim on my primary class feature.

That said, I am really intrigued at the idea of making other casters surge. Making my own chaos contagious, as it were. I wonder if this could be broken out as a Feat?

[Ortho]

How common actually is it for the DM to not give surges? I hear about it on the internet, but in real life I've never known a DM not give the roll after every spell and give an auto-surge (not needing a roll) on the next spell after a Tides of Chaos.

Clearly there are internet stories about DMs who refuse to let the player roll for surges after casting, but then internet stories make all sorts of minority situations sound as if they happen all the time.

How common is this in actual play?

I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but one DM I played under refused to let me roll if I was within 20ft of anyone, for fear of a Fireball. In a cramped-corridor dungeon crawl. Instead of replacing that single Wild Magic Surge with literally anything else.

I left the game after that session.