best persistent ocular supernatural spell buffs? [Archive]

newguydude1

2020-10-26, 09:19 PM

Can you get the beatstick to share your spells? E.g. take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat (or give it to the beatstick), polymorph yourself (or them) into a symbiont, attach, go through your buff routine including Personal spells, win?

... interesting.

ill have to explore this in more detail.

Ocular Spell only changes the effect to a ray with fixed range when you release the spell, not when it's cast, so it's not eligible for Persistent Spell when you cast it.

(Or, possibly, when you do cast it, the effect of the spell is to store it in your eyes for 8 hours, which probably persist to 24 hours.)

You want Reach Spell.

the rules say you store the spell in your eyes and "cast" it on release. im using illumian naenhoon to persist a spell at the moment of cast. so all is good.

Anthrowhale

2020-10-26, 09:21 PM

Mass Lesser Vigor is a decent party buff when persisted.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-27, 04:54 AM

If you're planning to share spells with a beatstick the Bracers of Spell-Sharing (DMG2) are also worth a look.

They're near-useless for long-term buffs (because they're limited to 1 spell at a time, only allow personal-only spells and halve duration),
but their ability to share short-term and instantaneous personal-only buffs like Celerity can be very powerful if used intelligently.

Their price tag is a little steep at 60000gp but considering the effect and that you're probably sharing the cost between two people it's hard to say they're not worth it.

newguydude1

2020-10-27, 09:19 AM

haste gives +30ft movespeed. thats no joke. so im starting to wonder is the extra attack worth 30ft movespeed? on one hand its more damage. on the other, movespeed enables kiting, and prevents the opposition from kiting you. or withdrawing for that matter since you can match his withdraw speed and attack as well.

what are your thoughts? is haste still better than triple strike?

If you're planning to share spells with a beatstick the Bracers of Spell-Sharing (DMG2) are also worth a look.

They're near-useless for long-term buffs (because they're limited to 1 spell at a time, only allow personal-only spells and halve duration),
but their ability to share short-term and instantaneous personal-only buffs like Celerity can be very powerful if used intelligently.

Their price tag is a little steep at 60000gp but considering the effect and that you're probably sharing the cost between two people it's hard to say they're not worth it.

its not a little steep. its downright unobtainable imo. you need a metropolis to even hope to buy the thing and there are a lot of other better stuff.

Can you get the beatstick to share your spells? E.g. take the Assume Supernatural Ability feat (or give it to the beatstick), polymorph yourself (or them) into a symbiont, attach, go through your buff routine including Personal spells, win?

the only symbiont that can talk is the fiendish familiar and that can only be grafted on to a character and has no limbs for somatic components. so for this trick to work you need both silent and still spell. or i guess the supernatural spell.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-27, 10:40 AM

haste gives +30ft movespeed. thats no joke. so im starting to wonder is the extra attack worth 30ft movespeed? on one hand its more damage. on the other, movespeed enables kiting, and prevents the opposition from kiting you. or withdrawing for that matter since you can match his withdraw speed and attack as well.

what are your thoughts? is haste still better than triple strike?
It's an enhancement bonus. Enhancement boni to movement speed are incredibly common, starting with stuff like Longstrider or Snowshoes at level 1.
Sure 30ft is at the higher end of the scale, but it's hardly unique. And not worth an additional attack imo.

its not a little steep. its downright unobtainable imo. you need a metropolis to even hope to buy the thing and there are a lot of other better stuff.
It's also immensely powerful if used correctly. And 60k is far from unobtainable. Merely pricey enough that you should be sure to get your money's worth, which imo you can.
You should of course make sure you know what you're going to use it for before you buy it, but that's true of most items that don't fall into the "necessary defenses" category.

Even if you're not abusing Celerity for extra actions the ability to share even a single personal-only spell with another party member can be a game changer.
Giant Size (CArc) is on the table for example, as are a whole lot of divinations.

Also spells that deal with spell slots like Mage's Lucubration, Mnemonic Enhancer, Triadspell and Rary's Arcane Conversion are generally personal and instantaneous, so two wizards can abuse it for a decent number of free extra spells.
And two players sharing the cost makes them a whole lot more affordable. It's reasonable too, after all they work in both directions.
Putting one on a beatstick is actually kind of a waste, but it's not like you can't switch off who uses them.

Silent Alarm

2020-10-27, 11:30 AM

its not a little steep. its downright unobtainable imo. you need a metropolis to even hope to buy the thing and there are a lot of other better stuff.

This hardly seems like a limitation if you are using Persistent Occular Supernatural Spell to buff yourself. With access to spells such as Plane Shift and Greater Teleport, access a Planar Metropolis (ELH 113) bumps up the normal 100,000gp limit to 600,000gp. However, it should be noted that these rules are only in use "where epic rules are in use", which is a rather confusing addendum to make? Regardless, this should address most, if any GP limits you might be concerned with. If not that, a simple Greater Teleport spell will suffice as well.

newguydude1

2020-10-27, 12:53 PM

the only symbiont that can talk is the fiendish familiar and that can only be grafted on to a character and has no limbs for somatic components. so for this trick to work you need both silent and still spell. or i guess the supernatural spell.

ok yeah this doesnt work. share spells only works for spells and spell-like abilites. so supernatural spell wont work, so i need silent spell. i can get around the somatic components by casting girallons blessing on myself it seems there is no spell that gives you a mouth to speak with.

This hardly seems like a limitation if you are using Persistent Occular Supernatural Spell to buff yourself. With access to spells such as Plane Shift and Greater Teleport, access a Planar Metropolis (ELH 113) bumps up the normal 100,000gp limit to 600,000gp. However, it should be noted that these rules are only in use "where epic rules are in use", which is a rather confusing addendum to make? Regardless, this should address most, if any GP limits you might be concerned with. If not that, a simple Greater Teleport spell will suffice as well.

i never seen a dm in his own custom setting use planar metropolis.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-27, 02:20 PM

ok yeah this doesnt work. share spells only works for spells and spell-like abilites. so supernatural spell wont work, so i need silent spell. i can get around the somatic components by casting girallons blessing on myself it seems there is no spell that gives you a mouth to speak with.
You can always use the old "order of operations" argument, and say it's shared first, supernaturalized second.

As for the components: you can just alter self into something with a mouth. Alter self doesn't touch your (Su) abilities, so you keep Share Spells.

newguydude1

2020-10-27, 02:27 PM

You can always use the old "order of operations" argument, and say it's shared first, supernaturalized second.

except you choose your target after fully casting the spell. after you fully cast its a supernatural ability meaning the only valid target is you.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

As for the components: you can just alter self into something with a mouth. Alter self doesn't touch your (Su) abilities, so you keep Share Spells.

1. you cant latch onto anything as an alter selfed thing. so you need to be a symbiont.
2. assume supernatural ability lets you use the ability of your current form. so you need to be a symbiont.

anyways im not interested in investing so much on a dispellable buff. so... yeah.

Asmotherion

2020-10-27, 02:52 PM

Depends on the level of optimisation you're going for.

Starmantle, Energy Immunity, Shapechange are pretty standard buffs, if you have a way to persist them (usually via Incantatrix).

I find that Thunderlance is nice to prersista as a beatstick. Add some standard Cleric Spells like Divine Power, as well as Wraithstrike and make the spell Fell Drain, and you have a very nice beat-stick indeed.

newguydude1

2020-10-27, 02:56 PM

Starmantle

doesnt work on natural weapons which is at least half the enemies you face

Energy Immunity

already 24 hours. no reason to persist.

Shapechange are pretty standard buffs

Divine Power, as well as Wraithstrike

personal so illegal for ocular spell

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-27, 03:24 PM

doesnt work on natural weapons which is at least half the enemies you face
Starmantle works on weapons and magical weapons. Natural weapons are weapons by the natural English reading. So on the face of it, starmantle works on natural weapons.

Now, there might be a specific definition somewhere saying that natural weapons are not weapons, but it's not in the glossary (there is no glossary entry for "weapon" or "natural weapon" in the PHB), nor is there anything suggesting that in the Rules Compendium. The RC says this under the header Weapons, on page 150: "In essence, a manufactured weapon is any weapon that isn’t intrinsic to the creature". On page 100, under Natural Attacks, it says: "Natural attacks come in two forms—natural weapons and special attacks. Natural weapons, such as fangs or claws, are physically a part of a creature". I can't read that in any way except that the category "weapons" has subcategories of "manufactured" and "natural".

newguydude1

2020-10-27, 03:36 PM

Starmantle works on weapons and magical weapons. Natural weapons are weapons by the natural English reading. So on the face of it, starmantle works on natural weapons.

Now, there might be a specific definition somewhere saying that natural weapons are not weapons, but it's not in the glossary (there is no glossary entry for "weapon" or "natural weapon" in the PHB), nor is there anything suggesting that in the Rules Compendium. The RC says this under the header Weapons, on page 150: "In essence, a manufactured weapon is any weapon that isn’t intrinsic to the creature". On page 100, under Natural Attacks, it says: "Natural attacks come in two forms—natural weapons and special attacks. Natural weapons, such as fangs or claws, are physically a part of a creature". I can't read that in any way except that the category "weapons" has subcategories of "manufactured" and "natural".

the problem here is anyone who used the system enough knows that when something says weapons, it means manufactured weapons most if not all of the time and treat natural weapons separately. (personally i cannot think of one example where "weapon" included natural weapon).

monks for example, their unarmed strikes are "weapons" not natural weapons, and touch of adamantine specifically says you can turn a monks fists into adamantine with the spell because theyre treated as weapons while at the same time you cant cast the spell on actual natural weapons.

theres also magic fang and weapon who also treat weapons and natural weapons differently.

so a dm is well within his right to say by raw starmantle doesnt work with natural weapons. at least thats what my dm said.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-27, 03:41 PM

the problem here is anyone who used the system enough knows that when something says weapons, it means manufactured weapons most if not all of the time and treat natural weapons separately. (personally i cannot think of one example where "weapon" included natural weapon).
I think that's a consequence of humanoid-centred design more than any conscious design decision. At best, it's circumstantial evidence, which isn't enough to determine RAW. Magic weapon provides circumstantial evidence that natural weapons are weapons: if they weren't, there'd be no need to specifically call out that magic weapon doesn't work on them.

I mean, if your DM ruled against it, that may be it, but I don't think it's borne out by the rules.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-27, 03:43 PM

I find that Thunderlance is nice to prersista as a beatstick.

Since it uses the higher of your int or cha instead of str for attacks and damage that sounds more like a debuff to me.
The natural 20ft reach is cool, sure, but that doesn't justify using it over a physical weapon when your int is likely 13-14 at best (for Combat Expertise).

Thunderlance also doesn't allow combat maneuvers and neither the reach nor damage scale with common melee buffs like Enlarge Person (which will also grant you 20ft reach if you use a reach weapon, out of a 1st level slot). It's also not a valid target for Greater Magic Weapon (or artificer infusions, Keen Edge,... you get the idea).

It's pretty much strictly a gish spell, and not even a particularly powerful one at that.
4th level spells offer a lot of options for gishes (Heart of Earth, Greater Mirror Image, Celerity, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune) that i'd fill my slots with before Thunderlance even if it was superior to a normal weapon, which it's not.

Thunderlance isn't the worst spell ever printed, but it's not worth a 4th level slot on its own and anyone who has a reason to cast it also has better things to use his spell slots on.

Silent Alarm

2020-10-27, 05:36 PM

i never seen a dm in his own custom setting use planar metropolis.

In my own home game, and in several other long term campaigns I've been in, it is entirely possible to plane shift to the City of Brass, on the Elemental Plane of Fire, or even go to Sigil, or even Union in the ELH as the existence of these locales by their nature do not, and often cannot, interfere with the custom game world anymore than they interfere with any other existing setting. That said, if this is something you are unwilling to at least discuss with your GM, elaborate on why Greater Teleporting to a Metropolis is not viable either.

Starmantle works on weapons and magical weapons. Natural weapons are weapons by the natural English reading. So on the face of it, starmantle works on natural weapons.

Whether or not Starmantle works on natural weapons or not is largely irrelevant as even if it works on non-natural weapons, the spell still destroys loot and therefore delays wealth accumulation. That said, the primary benefit of Starmantle, beyond outright immunity to non-magical weapons (be they natural or otherwise; I don't very well care for the arguments behind this), is that every attack made against you with a magical weapon (natural or otherwise; this however is incontrovertible) is halved if you can make a fairly easy Reflex Save (DC 15).

This can be further compounded with the spell Mystic Shield which grants it's subject the following:

Immunity to all 6th level and below spells (essentially half the spells in the entire game)
Forces all attackers against them with magical weapons to ignore their enhancement bonuses to attack and damage them, as well as their weapon's special abilities.

In terms of sheer defense, you ignore almost half of the spells in the entire game, you takes half damage from weapon attacks (if you don't just destroy them), and you reduce all magical weapons to their base state without destroying them.

Asmotherion

2020-10-28, 03:40 AM

Since it uses the higher of your int or cha instead of str for attacks and damage that sounds more like a debuff to me.
The natural 20ft reach is cool, sure, but that doesn't justify using it over a physical weapon when your int is likely 13-14 at best (for Combat Expertise).

Thunderlance also doesn't allow combat maneuvers and neither the reach nor damage scale with common melee buffs like Enlarge Person (which will also grant you 20ft reach if you use a reach weapon, out of a 1st level slot). It's also not a valid target for Greater Magic Weapon (or artificer infusions, Keen Edge,... you get the idea).

It's pretty much strictly a gish spell, and not even a particularly powerful one at that.
4th level spells offer a lot of options for gishes (Heart of Earth, Greater Mirror Image, Celerity, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune) that i'd fill my slots with before Thunderlance even if it was superior to a normal weapon, which it's not.

Thunderlance isn't the worst spell ever printed, but it's not worth a 4th level slot on its own and anyone who has a reason to cast it also has better things to use his spell slots on.

If you first persist all the buffs I mentioned above, you get character level bab (Divine Power) and resolve all attacks as Touch Attacks (Wraithstrike). That alone is enough to bypass the inconvinience on low mental stat character. And, at least 1/3d of the party usually has at least one decent stat between Int and Cha, so this ends up being a bonus for a lot of characters.

The reason I like Thunderlance is A) because it is a spell, and thus a valid target for Fell Drain, meaning every attack drains a level and B) it becomes a really nice way to deliver Whirlwind attack (for people who qualify for it), and amazing with Combat Reflexes.

As for Combat Maneuvers, I'm not sure what you mean. Is there a restriction preventing a weapon-like spell from delivering Maneuvers? If so, I'm not aware.

newguydude1

2020-10-28, 03:50 AM

so thats it? 7 spells? no other spells are worth persisting?

I think that's a consequence of humanoid-centred design more than any conscious design decision. At best, it's circumstantial evidence, which isn't enough to determine RAW. Magic weapon provides circumstantial evidence that natural weapons are weapons: if they weren't, there'd be no need to specifically call out that magic weapon doesn't work on them.

I mean, if your DM ruled against it, that may be it, but I don't think it's borne out by the rules.

you just need to show me 1 instance in all of d&d where "weapon" included natural weapons too. then ill admit im wrong and ill tell my dm hes wrong too.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-28, 05:22 AM

If you first persist all the buffs I mentioned above, you get character level bab (Divine Power) and resolve all attacks as Touch Attacks (Wraithstrike). That alone is enough to bypass the inconvinience on low mental stat character. And, at least 1/3d of the party usually has at least one decent stat between Int and Cha, so this ends up being a bonus for a lot of characters.
Divine Power and Wraithstrike apply equally to a manufactured weapon, so they're irrelevant to the comparison.
It's Thunderlance vs a manufactured weapon like a Greatsword, Guisarme or Spiked Chain (the most common weapons for THF builds).

Anyone who qualifies for the descriptor "beatstick" generally has a strength score in the low-mid twenties at least, compared to an int score of, at best, 13-14.
Since much of the benefit of wielding a twohanded weapon relies on getting 1,5x your ability mod to damage that's obviously a significant difference, touch attack or no touch attack.

Let's take a barbarian as an example. Let's say he has 14 int for Improved Trip and 30 str after buffs. He's using a guisarme and gets Enlarge Person instead of Thunderlance.
Said barbarian has the same 20ft reach as one casting Thunderlance, but his base damage is 2d6 + 15 (~22) instead of 3d6 + 3 (~13,5).
Keep in mind that 30 str for a fully buffed and raging barbarian is very much on the low end of things, so the gap in any actual game where persisting buffs is a thing is likely to be larger.
Also buffing str is far easier and more readily available than buffing cha or (especially) int.

Anyone who actually has the int or cha to make wielding a Thunderlance effective tends to have better things to do than attacking with a weapon. Or being in melee range at all.
You could argue that they can still use their 20ft reach to make attacks of opportunity, but the marginal extra damage generally isn't worth a 4th level slot or standing in charge range.

The reason I like Thunderlance is A) because it is a spell, and thus a valid target for Fell Drain, meaning every attack drains a level and B) it becomes a really nice way to deliver Whirlwind attack (for people who qualify for it), and amazing with Combat Reflexes.
Fair enough for Fell Drain, but it's balanced by the fact that a Thunderlance can't have magic abilities.

Combat Reflexes is dependant on actually doing damage with your attack and getting to trip, both of which don't apply with a Thunderlance.
The only thing it has going for it is that 20ft reach, which is no better than Enlarge Person + a reach weapon.

As for Whirlwind Attack even the people who could qualify for it don't take it because it takes too many crap feats.
Though you can get it cheaply as a weapon enhancement as long as you use a slashing weapon.

As for Combat Maneuvers, I'm not sure what you mean. Is there a restriction preventing a weapon-like spell from delivering Maneuvers? If so, I'm not aware.
You can't make a trip attack with a weapon unless that weapon has the trip special. Even if you treat Thunderlance as an actual lance (double damage on a mounted charge, which is iffy) it doesn't have that quality, so you have to make any trip attempt as an unarmed touch attack instead.
Not only does that mean that you have to use your str score, it also means you can't use your weapon's reach.

Since trip is a major factor in what makes having reach so effective and the main strategy most mundane melee use to stay somewhat relevant this is obviously a problem.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-28, 09:19 AM

Whether or not Starmantle works on natural weapons or not is largely irrelevant as even if it works on non-natural weapons, the spell still destroys loot [...]
I don't think nonmagical weapons account for a large percentage of wealth gain at ECL 11+, but sure, that's a downside.

This can be further compounded with the spell Mystic Shield which grants it's subject the following:

Immunity to all 6th level and below spells (essentially half the spells in the entire game)
Forces all attackers against them with magical weapons to ignore their enhancement bonuses to attack and damage them, as well as their weapon's special abilities.

I like mystic shield--let's ignore the "immunity to own buff spells" problem, because it's clearly intended that you can buff yourself--but the traditional pairing is with ruin delver's fortune (or a ring of evasion) to simply negate all damage on a successful save. Throw in the Pride domain and you have a 1 in 400 chance to take damage from a given melee attack. I love starmantle :smallbiggrin:.

you just need to show me 1 instance in all of d&d where "weapon" included natural weapons too. then ill admit im wrong and ill tell my dm hes wrong too.
Well, I just provided one with the magic weapon example, but I admit that's circumstantial. A lot of the examples are like that, though: you see spells that target "one weapon" and then make an exception for natural weapons.

Monster Manual 1, glossary entry for "natural weapons", page 312: "Natural Weapons:Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature".

Okay, so natural weapons are weapons.

Player's Handbook, Weapon Focus feat, page 102: "Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe. [...] You are especially good at using this weapon".

How many creatures have Weapon Focus for a natural weapon? Well, of 72 instances of "weapon focus" in the MM1, at least half are for natural weapons.

I mean, there's other references, like dragon deities having Favoured Weapon (claw). Which means a cleric can get proficiency with claws even if they have no claws. Pretty funky.

Asmotherion

2020-10-28, 09:38 AM

Divine Power and Wraithstrike apply equally to a manufactured weapon, so they're irrelevant to the comparison.
It's Thunderlance vs a manufactured weapon like a Greatsword, Guisarme or Spiked Chain (the most common weapons for THF builds).

Anyone who qualifies for the descriptor "beatstick" generally has a strength score in the low-mid twenties at least, compared to an int score of, at best, 13-14.
Since much of the benefit of wielding a twohanded weapon relies on getting 1,5x your ability mod to damage that's obviously a significant difference, touch attack or no touch attack.

Let's take a barbarian as an example. Let's say he has 14 int for Improved Trip and 30 str after buffs. He's using a guisarme and gets Enlarge Person instead of Thunderlance.
Said barbarian has the same 20ft reach as one casting Thunderlance, but his base damage is 2d6 + 15 (~22) instead of 3d6 + 3 (~13,5).
Keep in mind that 30 str for a fully buffed and raging barbarian is very much on the low end of things, so the gap in any actual game where persisting buffs is a thing is likely to be larger.
Also buffing str is far easier and more readily available than buffing cha or (especially) int.

Anyone who actually has the int or cha to make wielding a Thunderlance effective tends to have better things to do than attacking with a weapon. Or being in melee range at all.
You could argue that they can still use their 20ft reach to make attacks of opportunity, but the marginal extra damage generally isn't worth a 4th level slot or standing in charge range.

Fair enough for Fell Drain, but it's balanced by the fact that a Thunderlance can't have magic abilities.

Combat Reflexes is dependant on actually doing damage with your attack and getting to trip, both of which don't apply with a Thunderlance.
The only thing it has going for it is that 20ft reach, which is no better than Enlarge Person + a reach weapon.

As for Whirlwind Attack even the people who could qualify for it don't take it because it takes too many crap feats.
Though you can get it cheaply as a weapon enhancement as long as you use a slashing weapon.

You can't make a trip attack with a weapon unless that weapon has the trip special. Even if you treat Thunderlance as an actual lance (double damage on a mounted charge, which is iffy) it doesn't have that quality, so you have to make any trip attempt as an unarmed touch attack instead.
Not only does that mean that you have to use your str score, it also means you can't use your weapon's reach.

Since trip is a major factor in what makes having reach so effective and the main strategy most mundane melee use to stay somewhat relevant this is obviously a problem.

A) With combat reflexes, you still deliver a negative level to whoever happens to be within 20 feet of you. You don't need to trip them.

B) Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon is far inferior. Unless the character is specifically build with shorten grip (which is an oddly specific feat to take, for specific builds) you only threaten the spaces on the far end of your reach, as opposed to the whole area. Even with it, the Enlarged Person does not threaten the space they occupy.

C) Again with triping. Don't tunel vision on a single trick. There are a lot of excelent maneuvers that don't rely on triping the opponent. Unless you mean something different than ToB maneuvers? 'Cause that's what people refear to as maneuvers generally.

newguydude1

2020-10-28, 09:46 AM

How many creatures have Weapon Focus for a natural weapon? Well, of 72 instances of "weapon focus" in the MM1, at least half are for natural weapons.

I mean, there's other references, like dragon deities having Favoured Weapon (claw). Which means a cleric can get proficiency with claws even if they have no claws. Pretty funky.

ok i think weapon focus is definitive. ill tell my dm hes wrong. thanks.

sleepyphoenixx

2020-10-28, 10:55 AM

A) With combat reflexes, you still deliver a negative level to whoever happens to be within 20 feet of you. You don't need to trip them.
My point is that every "beatstick" (to me generally meaning a non-caster, str-focused fighter) will already have his own tricks,
the most common of which (because it's the most effective core-only/non-ToB melee strategy) is tripping. They're build for it.
They've also usually invested feats and plenty of gold into their weapon, all of which using Thunderlance invalidates.

You're replacing a move they've build around for a different trick (that they mostly could already do on their own, you only add Fell Drain). That's not a buff to me, that's a waste of resources.
Sure, Fell Drain on every hit is nice, but you're also nerfing their damage (possibly quite significantly). And i've yet to find a melee player who liked having his damage nerfed.

B) Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon is far inferior. Unless the character is specifically build with shorten grip (which is an oddly specific feat to take, for specific builds) you only threaten the spaces on the far end of your reach, as opposed to the whole area. Even with it, the Enlarged Person does not threaten the space they occupy.
Most people just use a Guisarme + Spiked Gauntlet/Armor Spikes if they don't spring for EWP:Spiked Chain. There is no valid mechanical reason to ever take Shorten Grip (or any other feat) to deal with this issue.

C) Again with triping. Don't tunel vision on a single trick. There are a lot of excelent maneuvers that don't rely on triping the opponent. Unless you mean something different than ToB maneuvers? 'Cause that's what people refear to as maneuvers generally.
Sorry, miscommunication. I'm talking about the special attacks available to non-ToB melee (bull rush, grappling, tripping, charge, disarm basically).
Of which tripping is generally the most effective and widely applicable.

Though most ToB builds i've seen that aren't TWF Swordsages try to fit it in their build as well, especially Crusaders because of the synergy with Thicket of Blades.

gijoemike

2020-10-29, 11:55 AM

I think that's a consequence of humanoid-centred design more than any conscious design decision. At best, it's circumstantial evidence, which isn't enough to determine RAW. Magic weapon provides circumstantial evidence that natural weapons are weapons: if they weren't, there'd be no need to specifically call out that magic weapon doesn't work on them.

I mean, if your DM ruled against it, that may be it, but I don't think it's borne out by the rules.

Actually I think they are different based on your own example. Here is the text of magic weapon. Also this weird snippet of text is where the entire argument is born from. The argument is stupid

Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls).

You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

An unarmed attack is a natural weapon and thus isn't valid for Magic Weapon. EXCEPT!!! monks unarmed strike is considered a weapon. The text clearly defines weapon and natural weapon to be different distinctions. Are they subsets or supersets of one another? Lets think this through logically.

If [manufactured] weapons are a subset of natural weapons then the spell natural weapon should work on them. They are called out as not. So it concludes that natural weapons are a subset of weapons. That makes more sense anyway

If natural weapons are a subset of weapons then magic weapon should work on them. Except there is a clause that prevents that. OK, magic weapon just doesn't work on natural weapons, fine.

So natural weapons are a subset of weapons that are targeted by Magic Fang.
Weapons are a superset that includes Natural Weapons and the spell Magic Weapon excludes the subset of Natural Weapons.

<---- Up to this point we are fine and dandy --->

Finally we have the STUPIDITY of the monk's unarmed strike clause.
Why the heck does that exist. If a monk's weapon is both a natural weapon and weapon then weapons/natural weapons cannot be sub/super sets of each other. So many people have a final conclusion of a VIN DIAGRAM. Natural weapons on one side, Weapons on the other and the only thing in the middle is a monk's unarmed strike.

Lets look at Weapon Focus. Text is from D&D tools and d20srd
Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You are especially good at using this weapon. (If you have chosen ray, you are especially good with rays, such as the one produced by the ray of frost spell.)

This makes no sense. Why is grapple and ray allowed? Please not that unarmed strike is called out as an exception as it is a natural weapon which is implied not allowed. If natural weapons were allowed this clause wouldn't be needed.

THEREFORE, as stupid as this Sounds Natural Weapons are NOT weapons and it is backed up by multiple clauses in the PHB.

The monster manual is full of contradictory info on this. There are dozens of examples of weapon focus(bite) or wf(claw). The intent of the rule and wording in early D&D had to be different than it was later on. So ask your DM.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-10-30, 11:23 AM

Finally we have the STUPIDITY of the monk's unarmed strike clause. [...] If a monk's weapon is both a natural weapon and weapon then weapons/natural weapons cannot be sub/super sets of each other [...]
First: The monk ability specifically lets monks treat their unarmed strike as manufactured weapon, not as a "weapon".
Second: If the monk ability let you treat your unarmed strike as a "weapon", it wouldn't cause any problems. It would just be redundant. You can already treat unarmed strikes like weapons.
Third: When given the choice between "natural weapons aren't weapons" and "the monk's unarmed strike ability is stupid", I will go with the second one, every time. WotC editors make mistakes, no doubt about it, but they are a hell of a lot more likely to mess up in one specific class ability than consistently mess up calling natural weapons natural weapons and giving out Weapon Focus with them.