What Type of Entity is a Hexblade Patron?

[DarkMoon250]

I've got my first game ever starting in 2 weeks, and right now I'm putting together various concepts for the character I want to play. Right now, I've found myself stuck between choosing either Shadow Magic Sorcerer and Hexblade Warlock, but in regards to the latter, I realize I have no idea what a "Hexblade" really is.

If your patron is a fiend, you've made a pact with a devil or demon; if your patron is an Archfey, you've allied with a king or queen of fairies; so on and so on. But a Hexblade? What kind of being is that supposed to be? Read as worded in XGTE, a Hexblade is a spirit of the Shadowfell (which may or may not specifically be the Raven Queen) that for some reason likes to spend its time making sentient weapons made out of pseudo-matter from the plane... which totally fits into the Shadowfell's themes of darkness, cold, undeath and doom, right?

I don't think a single notable entity from the Shadowfell has ever been credited in existing lore with making a living shadow weapon (except Vecna when he made the Sword of Kas, but I think that was unintentional). Other than that, we know Hexblades are masters of curses and dark arts, and while lots of Shadowfell entities are associated with this, Feywild hags are just as much so.

This became more of a rant than I expected, so let me get to the point: what are some possible non-Raven Queen candidates for a Hexblade patron?

[MaxWilson]

The Grim Reaper?

[Thunderous Mojo]

In reality, you have Carte Blanche to make any Patron work.

The Hexblade subclass certainly fits my view of a protege of Grazzt for example.

An organization like the Blades from the Elder Scroll games could have sworn some oaths to a mystical being for some secrets of Eldritch swordplay.

The Queen of Woe could be an Unseelie Court-like figure...perhaps a banished figure, and the Queen of Woe has dubbed your character her Knight Champion of Woe.

Baba Yaga or any Hag could work as a Hexblade patron if you play up the Hex angle.

If you do select the Grim Reaper, be an acolyte of the Cult of the Blue Oyster.

[Zhorn]

Thunderous Mojo has hit the nail on the head with this, while the books suggest shadowfell, there's very little identity restriction force hexblade to be a particular type of patron.
Thematically it's easy to just pass of Hexblades as "Pact of the Blade, the subclass", just treating the whole kit as just a different flavour of pact and go with any patron you feel works best for the story you want the character to be a part of.

[Luccan]

Hexblade has a crappy patron explanation since it's exceptionally vague, doesn't overall fit the Shadowfell, and they only mention the Raven Queen because they didn't end up going through with her unique Warlock subclass. Basically they shoved two subclass ideas together, but the only thing about it that actually fits the default lore is Accursed Specter. Personally, I prefer when people go for something like intelligent weapons or something from Acheron (or another war-like plane) for a patron. At least those fit the actual focus of the subclass as the warrior-lock.

Edit: For my money, if your setting has a plane like some depictions of Valhalla, maybe you made a deal with a Valkyrie or a similar warrior's psychopomp to occasionally borrow the foes you've killed before they meet their reward (Accursed Specter) while also being made a better warrior (everything else).

[Lord Haart]

I think that one heavily implied option is that, like Stormbringer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer), Frostmourne (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Frostmourne), Armageddon's Blade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes_of_Might_and_Magic_III:_Armageddon's_Blade) or (for a non-evil example) at least some portrayals of Excalibur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur), the "pact" is with the blade itself; while the circumstances of the blade's creation may influence the rules and intents heavily, the core relationship is between the blade (which lends the user not just its steel but its power) and the user (who lets the blade claim himself, and change himself).

That said, it's not that well-supported by the mechanics. And apparently someone in WoTC realised that, too; hence the incredibly vague write-up that simultaneously tries to play up the "blade itself is a patron" angle, the "blade is a (meta)physical representation of the pact, which is made with any non-descript entity" angle and the "shadowfell edgy something we just want to reference Blackrazor even though actual Blackrazor doesn't work like that" angle.

Just pick something that makes sense.

[Chugger]

First, you're not limited to the Raven Queen, as the book suggests - some players think it's a limitation, it isn't.

You can have any patron you want as a hexblade. It doesn't have to be evil, either, though that's harder to make sense of.

My lawful good silver dragonborn pal in Curse of Strahd was really struggling, so I one-dipped a level of hexblade to focus on Charisma and use that as my main combat stat - and got shield spell - total game changer. But I didn't do it til we learned about

...warning COS spoiler below

--

--- Argonvost or w/w his name is, the silver dragon that Strahd killed - and his spirt is stuck there. That became my patron. Now being hexblade made sense - he was a lawful good silver dragon, but his tortured spirit was trapped in Bavaria, a shadowfull like place - so of course his magic would be twisted. My char's mission was not only to kill Strahd, it was also to free his patron's spirit from agony - also this dragon is an ancestor of my char, which explains why he got drawn into Bavaria in the first place. I love how that worked out.

So look, a Sprite - a really mean little battle-hardened Sprite with attitude - could be your hexblade patron, if you want. Or a battle-mage armored sword-wielding lich - or w/e you want. It's usually not a god, a patron - it's a demon, a devil, a fey (a hag or a good one) - a celestial, like a unicorn or a Deva - whatever you like, as long as it's basically magical - go crazy.

[MoiMagnus]

I'm about to start a campaign with an Hexblade, with carte blanche from the DM. I've took the inspiration from my patron from the Xanathar's tables:

Patron Attitudes
3 -> Your patron is the spirit of a long-dead hero who see your pact as a way to continue to influence the world.
=> I've kept the idea that my patron used to be a mortal, and transcended into some sort of immortality, but doesn't have as much impact on the material world post-mortem as he wants to.

Special Terms
5 -> You can never wear the same outfit twice, since your patron finds such predictability to be boring.
=> I've kept the spirit of this term: my patron is eccentric and bored.

From this, I've decided that my Patron was an aristocrat, and very powerful Sorcerer, who tried to study, recreate and use some Shadowfel relics to reach immortality. He was recently eliminated by a group of heros, and his spirit was send to Shadowfel, only keeping a spiritual link to the little cult he created to venerate himself while he was still alive. I was a prominent member of this cult, and is now one of the few remaining bond he has with the material plane.

[Lupine]

That is the question isn’t it.

Congratulations, my friend, you have just stumbled onto the first of many reasons why people hate the hexblade.

Personally, I see the celestial-fiend pairing, the old one as the “other” and hexblade as out of place. So, I refluff/rebuild hexblade to be the shadow patron, to act as the counterpoint to the archfey. But how to do this?

First, move hex warrior to pact of blade, where it always should have been. Next, change the hexblade spell list to be more curse focused (such as slow, bane, and geas, that sort of thing)
Change the names to shadow stuff (hexblades curse to shadowy curse) and you now have yourself very easy patron fluff, a pretty good subclass, and such.

A note for the people who don’t like the hexblades curse due to its prof bonus extra damage, change it too your warlock spell level, and impose a rider effect when the warlock starts getting mystic arcanum.

[cutlery]

It is a pretty bland and flavorless patron.

On the other hand, that makes reflavoring it easy. Well, but for that stupid level 6 feature.

[Joe the Rat]

It really comes down to what fits in your DM's game, because the written fluff is as ephemeral as unseelie fairy farts.

My recommendations are look at things thematic to Curse, War, and Darkness.

The Dark Powers (note the capitalization) behind the old Ravenloft setting certainly fit the overall profile, but this will require a roleplay hook - you need to have a flaw in character that essentially traps you in your behavior patterns - making the same bad (but not necessarily dangerous) decision over and over. Hubris is also popular here. The long game is either you sort yourself out, or you become a Dread Power trapped in your own pocket dimension.

Entities of Darkness/Shadows. Anything with the general feel of grim badness. Something in the vein of shadow demons. I created an entity known as Cremnos, of Flame and Shadow (No Balor like an old school Balrog) that fit... okay. A particularly fun idea in this line is Tenebrous, Shadow Vestige. It works fairly well with the Hexblades tricks given that Tenebrous was Orcus.

Agents of Fortune (just for you, Thunderous Mojo). Basically the Celestial Patron, only for Chaos. This plays well to hexing, cursing, and probability aspects of the class. Your patron is a guy who knows a guy who is Mask, Loki, Arioch, etc.

Psychopomp. The other side of the Raven Queen Patron. Before they changed the Lore, TRQ was a death goddess, harboring and shuffling souls of the departed. Your patron guards the dead, you have powers aligned to death and fate, but you are not necessarily pro-death (and in fact may be anti-undead - your wraith is merely "borrowing" a soul before sending it on). This is the Grim Reaper / Valkyrie / Anubis / Ferryman / Samedi route.

Depends on how you define "weapon". If you want to lean into the Hex Warrior aspect, your patron could be a powerful, sentient weapon. Obviously you don't have this powerful weapon, but retrieving it is on your to-do list, if appropriate. Or it could be depowered, and it is feeding you knowledge and a wisp of power to help you bring it to its formal hideous strength. But weapon is a broad concept. Maybe there is an ultra-powerful Warforged Colossus or sentient Walking Statue that requires a catspaw of sorts, since it is basically immobilized. Maybe it's a super-dimensional weapons platform, channeling you knowledge and power (and if you go the Blade route, beaming you weapons). maybe it's a Living Spell - a 10th level Bestow Curse that requires a mortal agent as part of fulfilling its purpose - Spear of Aurakles style.

[Bobthewizard]

You are open to call it anything. You could use any Archfey, GOO, Fiend or Celestial. I've used minor gods.

My favorite is a character that found a magic weapon. They are just a plain, not very good fighter - medium armor, martial weapons, d8 hit die. Everything else is part of the magic sword. Subclass abilities, invocations, and spells, even the character's feats were reflavored as powers of the ancient sword. This works better after level 3 when you get improved pact weapon and can summon the sword if you lose it. Leveling up is the character discovering more powers of the sword.

Sword of Amberace

Requires Attunement by a descendent of Amberace Tylocostathan.

While attuned to the Sword, the bearer gains the following benefits.
• The Sword has a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls.
• You can use Charisma for attack and damage rolls with the Sword.
• Your speed increases by 10 feet. When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement on that turn. When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
• You can use your action to summon the Sword in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
• The Sword disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die. You can conjure the Sword in any weapon form, including any melee weapon or a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow.

Spellcasting:

• You can use the Sword as a spellcasting focus and can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
• While attuned to the Sword, even if it isn’t in your possession, you can cast False Life (1st level) and the following cantrips at will: Eldritch blast, booming blade, and prestidigitation.
• You have 2 spell slots of 2nd level and can cast the following spells: Armor Of Agathys, Hex, Shatter, Suggestion, Misty Step. Charisma is your spellcasting modifier. You recover this ability on a short or long rest.
• You have advantage on Constitution saving throws that you make to maintain your concentration on a spell when you take damage.
• When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.

Dragon’s Curse:

The Sword can curse one enemy for death. As a bonus action, choose one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. The target is cursed for 1 minute. The curse ends early if the target dies, you die, or you are incapacitated. Until the curse ends, you gain the following benefits:

• You gain a bonus equal your proficiency bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target.
• Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
• If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 hit point).

You can’t use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.

(This is what the sword would look like as a magic item. It covers Warlock, Hexblade, Invocations, Spells, Mobile and Warcaster Feats)

[supercereal]

Seeing the proposed number of played character in this sub with an hexblade dip, I would wager that the hexblade patron is a very sad extraplanar entity, always signing new contract with brand new warlocks that promptly ignore her/him/it after a couple of warlock's level, never returning his/her calls.

But he/she/it as a dream. One day he/she/it will build and army of absurdly overpowered 2-level dip hexblade warlocks. An ocean of souls fighting as one against sensible and roleplaying driven character builds. Together they will conquer the whole multiverse. :smallbiggrin:

[Willie the Duck]

This became more of a rant than I expected, so let me get to the point: what are some possible non-Raven Queen candidates for a Hexblade patron?

Ditto to all that imply it is bland, poorly tied to Raven Queen, and overall unsatisfying. One of those places where I wish they'd just flat out said 'this is a system patch.'

Regardless, personally I'd go one of two ways, depending on whether you want to focus on the hex or the blade part of the lore. For the blade, I'd go for having a patron be the Spirit of War, the rush of adrenaline, the thunderous drumbeat of your heart beating in your ears when you are fighting (literally) to keep that heart beating. For the Hex, I think Babba Yaga, Norns, or whatever mystic (non-deific) force might give oracles their visions. Maybe whatever gives Maleficent or the Wicked Witch of the West their powers.

[Aimeryan]

Personally, I'm pretty happy with having it be the Raven Queen; lore about her suggests one of her spheres of influence is making sure the dead stay dead, which naturally puts her in opposition with sentient Undead.

My Paladin is obsessed with battling evil, but she isn't terribly bright (8 Int) and not particularly wise (10 Wis); due to this, and Paladins lacking Detect Evil in 5e, there are not many ways for her to figure out what is evil, unless it is blantantly obvious - it became a running joke that she had to ask the party if something was evil. Well, guess what tends to be blantantly, obviously, evil? Undead. Was not a difficult choice to make a pact for power (actually just the one level, Cha SAD is very nice) in return for destroying the Undead when she came across them.

[Grey Watcher]

I view Patron fluff as a suggestion anyway. You could take the mechanics of an Archfey pact and instead say that your patron is the demonic Father of All Lies (thus the emphasis on deception). Or maybe the Celestial mechanics are instead for a Devil who has given you the power to protect and preserve what you love in exchange for your soul. Maybe the Fiend pact is actually an Efreet Sultan who's taken am interest in you. An Old Ones pact might actually be a blessing from the patron saint of anything relating to the mind.

Point is, just come up with a patron that you like and that makes sense in the setting and don't worry about making it accord with the book, which is so vague as to be meaningless. Hexblade really is just Pact of the Blade Plus.


... trapped in Bavaria...

You mean Barovia. Bavaria is a real place and no more of a pit of inescapable despair than anywhere else on the planet.

(I realize it's probably an autocorrect fail, but it was too silly to pass up.)

[KorvinStarmast]

In reality, you have Carte Blanche to make any Patron work. {snip}
If you do select the Grim Reaper, be an acolyte of the Cult of the Blue Oyster. Heh, this is a fine choice for a horrible sub class.
Hexblade has a crappy patron explanation +2.

That is the question isn’t it. Congratulations, my friend, you have just stumbled onto the first of many reasons why people hate the hexblade. Indeed.

But here's the dirty little secret. It's actually a marketing ploy (Speculation follows) ...


The evil Hexblade patron is in fact a marketing executive who works for Gillette. :smalleek: The Hexblade(TM) will soon to launch (it's a stocking stuffer, give it to your beloved shaver this Christmas!) in order to overcome the current, stifling competition from the Bic Flex 5. (Hex = 6; so six blades is better than 5, right?) This has been in the works for years. Since that marketing executive also had to manage an account with Hasbro his kid got some free D&D booster packs. Later, his contacts at Hasbro and WoTC ended up with loads of Hexblade logo'd free stuff (pens, note pads, mouse pads, etc). And it just become ubiquitous.

That's the most likely actual patron... :smallcool:

[MaxWilson]

Hexblade has a crappy patron explanation since it's exceptionally vague, doesn't overall fit the Shadowfell, and they only mention the Raven Queen because they didn't end up going through with her unique Warlock subclass.

Eh, it's not much worse than any other patron explanation. Why is a random Pit Fiend a valid warlock patron? How can he grant powers that he himself does not possess? What are the terms of the pact? What is the patron getting out of the Pact anyway? What penalties exist if the Warlock doesn't pay up? If the patron dies, what happens to the power? What are the externalities/extended consequences to everyone else for the warlock taking this Pact? 5E essentially just treats the patron as a giant offscreen handwave (or a requirement for the DM to make a bunch of stuff up), and Hexblade simply takes that at face value and says, "Fine, make everything up or just ignore the patron and treat this as an alt-wizard (which should have been based on Int instead of Cha)."

Why are ki-rin and genie patrons granting people superpowered force blasts (Eldritch Blast invocations)?

I've even seen people suggest taking Imps as Patrons, which also makes zero sense from a fluff angle.

Warlock fluff is downright terrible across the board.

[KorvinStarmast]

Warlock fluff is downright terrible across the board. The Empyraen is at least plausible, though I do share you view on the conflict between the patron's own powers and what they can grant, however, an Empyrean has a direct line to a deity (as I read the MM description).

At least GOO doesn't have that failing.

The Arch Fey ... not sure enough on the lore to comment.

[Kemev]

I think that one heavily implied option is that, like Stormbringer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer)/snip

The Stormbringer angle is what I lean into.

I always really enjoyed the Michael Moorcock Eternal Champion books, with Elric and Corum being my faves. If you haven't read them but you're looking for Hexblade inspiration, they're worth a read. Elric was written to be an explicit anti-hero. He's weak and sickly, knows a lot of dark magic, and ends up with the cursed sword Stormbringer, which gives him strength in exchange for eating the souls of anyone it kills.

Corum was part of the original inspiration for the Vecna hand/eye lore... In the books, Corum loses his own hand and eye, and has them replaced with the cursed hand and eye of dead gods. These give him the power to conjure the spirits of those he murders (which ties back into the Hexblade's Accursed Specter ability).

The Eternal Champion cosmology opens up a lot to play with... and none of it was explained well in the Hexblade as presented. Oopsies.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, those two series were personal faves when I read them in the 70's and early 80's.

Hawkmoon wasn't bad, but it felt different.

[MaxWilson]

The Stormbringer angle is what I lean into.

I always really enjoyed the Michael Moorcock Eternal Champion books, with Elric and Corum being my faves. If you haven't read them but you're looking for Hexblade inspiration, they're worth a read. Elric was written to be an explicit anti-hero. He's weak and sickly, knows a lot of dark magic, and ends up with the cursed sword Stormbringer, which gives him strength in exchange for eating the souls of anyone it kills.

Corum was part of the original inspiration for the Vecna hand/eye lore... In the books, Corum loses his own hand and eye, and has them replaced with the cursed hand and eye of dead gods. These give him the power to conjure the spirits of those he murders (which ties back into the Hexblade's Accursed Specter ability).

The Eternal Champion cosmology opens up a lot to play with... and none of it was explained well in the Hexblade as presented. Oopsies.

It also doesn't work with Hexblade unless the DM is actually willing to both (1) give you Blackrazor a.k.a Stormbringer at first level (or first warlock level anyway), and (2) make all your warlock powers vanish if you lose Blackrazor or neglect to feed it.

Fundamentally, the warlock class just isn't the right way to model a relationship with Stormbringer or most other Faustian bargains. On the other hand, "here's 50,000 bonus XP and +4 to a stat of your choice and +2 to your proficiency bonus, but all these benefits go away permanently if ever go 48 hours without killing a sentient creature who isn't expecting death... Now THAT'S a Faustian bargain! Looks manageable at first, no apparent perma-strings attached, but designed to mess with player psychology.

[KorvinStarmast]

Now THAT'S a Faustian bargain! Looks manageable at first, no apparent perma-strings attached, but designed to mess with player psychology. In the hands of the right player, yes!

In the hands of the garden variety murder hobo, it offers license to kill and becomes a kind of enabling that probably isn't healthy for play.

I mean c'mon, man, I had to kill the ostler. My sword was hungry.

[Greywander]

Read as worded in XGTE, a Hexblade is a spirit of the Shadowfell (which may or may not specifically be the Raven Queen) that for some reason likes to spend its time making sentient weapons made out of pseudo-matter from the plane...
Officially, I think this is it. And yes, it's incredibly vague.

I've come up with my own idea for what a "hexblade" could be, though I don't know if there's any place for this in D&D lore:

If you're going to homebrew something, why not go whole hog and fully embrace the concept of the hexblade in all of its absurdity?

Hexblades, of which there are many (under this homebrew interpretation), are literally sentient weapons that forge contracts with mortals to grant them power. Oh, that thing in your hand? Ha. Ha ha. No. You do not wield a hexblade, the hexblade wields you. The hexblade itself, should you ever actually lay eyes on it in its home plane, is no ordinary weapon. It is a being of downright eldritch design, as if Lovecraft himself had forged it on the anvil of Azathoth's hide. It could be a hundred feet tall with a thousand edges, each curving and folding in on itself. The weapons of men and elves and dwarves are but a farcical caricature of a memory of a reflection of an illusion seen in a dream, of the hexblades. Before life creeped along the ground and swam within the seas, the hexblades sailed across the cosmos, waging wars against the gods and destroying whole planets. Only a god could ever hope to wield a hexblade, and then only at great risk to himself, even with the consent of the eldritch weapon. They are the very incarnations of war and violence and death.

[MaxWilson]

In the hands of the right player, yes!

In the hands of the garden variety murder hobo, it offers license to kill and becomes a kind of enabling that probably isn't healthy for play.

I mean c'mon, man, I had to kill the ostler. My sword was hungry.

That's fun too, IMO. It doesn't mean the rest of the world has to give the PC a pass, but if you want to blame the sword, sure!

I remember one magic staff (Flaun'tiir) which was theoretically a Staff of Fire or something, but the minor property that had the most impact on that whole campaign was that it enhanced the greed of the bearer. So many things happened because the druid/monk who owned it saw moneybags where other people would have seen scruples. The player would even nudge me as DM, "Does Flaun'tiir say anything to me about [whatever]?" hoping to be extra-tempted. I don't think he ever used the item's combat-relevant properties like Wall of Fire more than once or twice in the whole campaign, but he loved the excuse to be tempted to hide gold, hoard gold, etc.

Even in the hands of a murderhobo it serves as a source of tension, because if the murderhobo ever gets killed and takes more than 48 hours to be resurrected... sorry, you just lost your Faustian boon. (And perhaps the DM will offer the Faustian boon to one of your rivals next--or perhaps the patron will sell the Authorities evidence of a bunch of murders you committed while under the boon, or blackmail you with that threat.)

I don't envision any situation where that boon would ruin play, assuming the player is someone I want at the table in the first place (i.e. not a complete idiot who ignores other players' feelings entirely). It's not even like they have to murder the ostler (and face the consequences). They "just" lose a irreplaceable bonus.

[Evaar]

I've played a few Hexblades and flavored the patron differently for each.

First, the real answer is "Some unidentified entity occupying or associated with the Shadowfell who likes to either craft sentient weapons or manifest as said sentient weapons, but isn't any one particular sentient weapon, and also your weapon isn't sentient, and also just FYI the Pact of the Blade specifies you can't make a sentient weapon your pact weapon so don't get too attached to this whole sentient weapon concept, but that's what your patron is about. Mysterious! Maybe the Raven Queen, whatever that means?"

So it's ripe for reflavoring.

For my Hexbow, his patron was Beshaba, the Faerunian goddess of bad luck. I reflavored her to be more like Nemesis (the greek goddess), so that she actually had an identifiable philosophy. Essentially, my character was armed as an agent of chaos to punish hubris. Mighty wizards who think they're beyond the reach of gods, for example. It was a Dungeon of the Mad Mage game. His weapon was a longbow made of black antlers - Beshaba's holy symbol. Everything a Hexblade does fits pretty well with this, given the whole curse/bad luck angle.

For my melee Hexblade, his patron is literally just the Queen of Air and Darkness. I made the character before Hexblade existed, and everything the subclass does just fit what I was trying to accomplish with him (except the specter, but that was easy to reflavor as the enemy's shadow severed from their body and put to use). So my DM allowed me to just rebuild him as a Hexblade, since the characterization was consistent.

As others note, there are tons of entities around D&D that fit the bill for what the Hexblade can mechanically accomplish. Hags, Graz'zt, Orcus, any number of death/war/darkness/trickery/fate/misfortune gods or exarchs or demon princes or archdevils, Unseelie fey, or *sigh* yes the Raven Queen. Pick something that sounds cool to you, make it fit.

[Foxhound438]

It's a powergamer who gives you better stats than all the other warlocks

I actually have no idea what these are supposed to be. I feel like they want it to be about cursed weapons, but those kind of features should be features of an item, not of a class.

[Serenity]

In a Forgotten Realms game, I played it as a mystical warrior from Mulhorand, empowered by the embodied Egyptian Gods who rule there.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Officially indeed it is a spirit of the shadowfell, but i much prefer it to be the weapon itself. Being bound to (possibly evil) sentient weapon is a classic trope with a lot of fun plot points to explore.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've made it a setting fact that the Pacts aren't bound to a type of patron, but are descriptive names for pacts made with particular purposes. So a powerful fire elemental or dragon might make a Fiend Pact, if what they care about is blowing things up and tyranny. All sorts of things make fey pacts, not just fey. Same with Hexblade. The patron has to care about weapons or artifacts and curses.

This was necessary to get around a logical consequence of removing alignment even for angels and devils. If there are good/kindly devils...why would they make a pact about burning things and domination? Now those make Celestial pacts, while the more "traditional" fiends make one of the other pacts, as do other beings.

So the type of pact doesn't tell you much about the patron, but about what he, she, or it is going to expect from you and the price you promised/paid for your powers.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Why is a random Pit Fiend a valid warlock patron? How can he grant powers that he himself does not possess? What are the terms of the pact? What is the patron getting out of the Pact anyway? What penalties exist if the Warlock doesn't pay up? If the patron dies, what happens to the power? What are the externalities/extended consequences to everyone else for the warlock taking this Pact?

I find this more a feature rather then a bug. Not the hand waving away the need for details, but rather, that so much is left for the player and DM to decide.

All classes in 5e, have some component like this, but as you rightfully point out, MaxWilson....an exceptional amount of Warlock details are blank.


It also doesn't work with Hexblade unless the DM is actually willing to both (1) give you Blackrazor a.k.a Stormbringer at first level (or first warlock level anyway), and (2) make all your warlock powers vanish if you lose Blackrazor or neglect to feed it.

Fundamentally, the warlock class just isn't the right way to model a relationship with Stormbringer or most other Faustian bargains. On the other hand, "here's 50,000 bonus XP and +4 to a stat of your choice and +2 to your proficiency bonus, but all these benefits go away permanently if ever go 48 hours without killing a sentient creature who isn't expecting death... Now THAT'S a Faustian bargain! Looks manageable at first, no apparent perma-strings attached, but designed to mess with player psychology.

Levels 1 through 2 Elric is the young Prince, still reliant upon the mystical drugs to keep him hale in body.

After a palace coup and other adventures Elric finds Stormbringer, and no longer needs the drugs, and is 3rd level.

To me, this seems entirely in the bailiwick of the Hexblade.

Faust's corruption was gradual. This is something that I think is better represented by a 20 level progression, instead of the sudden boost of a powerful item.
Of course, a DM is on their own, creatively on how to bring this Faustian agreement to life.

One other aspect, is most players seemingly don't want to make Faustian bargains.
Players want to make Al's Discount Stereos type deals...the type of deals where for the low down payment of 2 levels....you get Force spell attacks that push any creature, with no saving throw.

My personal experience, is the more the Warlock Patron has a presence,(not necessarily a literal presence) in the campaign....the more levels in the class the player takes.

Out of curiosity, doesn't DM's Guild have Warlock Patron product prepackaged that can fill in the answers to the questions the Warlocks class posses, but does not answer?

[MaxWilson]

I find this more a feature rather then a bug. Not the hand waving away the need for details, but rather, that so much is left for the player and DM to decide.

All classes in 5e, have some component like this, but as you rightfully point out, MaxWilson....an exceptional amount of Warlock details are blank.

Well if so, then Hexblade is extra-featureful.

I just don't get why someone would complain about the Hexblade's lack of flavor while being fine with every other warlock. I don't think you're one of the Hexblade complainers so this probably doesn't apply to you.


Levels 1 through 2 Elric is the young Prince, still reliant upon the mystical drugs to keep him hale in body.

And yet he already has warlock powers and a special dedicated weapon that he can use to attack with Charisma, and a Hexblade's Curse. All of his major powers and abilities are up and running at 1st level, and he hasn't found Stormbringer yet.


After a palace coup and other adventures Elric finds Stormbringer, and no longer needs the drugs, and is 3rd level.

To me, this seems entirely in the bailiwick of the Hexblade.

It seems quite wrong to me for Stormbringer's discover to have so little impact. Now he gets 2nd level spells and a Pact Boon--how does that model Stormbringer's impact? And BTW in this scenario does Elric actually get Blackrazor as a magic item, or is Stormbringer just an offscreen explanation for Elric's powers? Does he even wield Stormbringer at all?


Faust's corruption was gradual. This is something that I think is better represented by a 20 level progression, instead of the sudden boost of a powerful item.

That's why I like giving an immediate power boost, and then gradual corruption happens as loss aversion tempts you to do things to keep it.


One other aspect, is most players seemingly don't want to make Faustian bargains.
Players want to make Al's Discount Stereos type deals...the type of deals where for the low down payment of 2 levels....you get Force spell attacks that push any creature, with no saving throw.

Players don't want to give up agency. The trick is to make it a Faustian bargain which doesn't seem to constrain their options. E.g. "here's a vampire ally who can help you fight the bad guys by making enemies into vampire spawns." There's no way that could possibly go wrong, right? And yet some players will gladly accept that Faustian bargain, even if they have reason to suspect that the vampire's ultimate goals do not align with their own.


My personal experience, is the more the Warlock Patron has a presence,(not necessarily a literal presence) in the campaign....the more levels in the class the player takes.

That's the thing about Stormbringer though: IMO the fiction doesn't work unless Stormbringer is a literal presence, and even then the fiction doesn't match the Hexblade's pacing or mechanics.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The trick is to make it a Faustian bargain which doesn't seem to constrain their options. E.g. "here's a vampire ally who can help you fight the bad guys by making enemies into vampire spawns." There's no way that could possibly go wrong, right? And yet some players will gladly accept that Faustian bargain, even if they have reason to suspect that the vampire's ultimate goals do not align with their own.


We call those players "Fools", up in my neck of the woods, but we are all fools one time or another. 😀

D&D, rarely can exactly match a work of fiction. Generally, just because a lot of fantasy fiction does not operate from a premise of 4-5 coequal participants.
Elric is a solo game.

That said, I agree completely regarding player agency. The flip side to the players not wanting to give up agency, is that DMs also are afraid in actually following through with sufficiently sized Faustian carrots.

You have to be willing to let players freely use Stormbringer, before Stormbringer can corrupt them, and many DMs are just not willing to go there.

Which I can completely empathize with, releasing Artifacts can, should, and generally does change games.

[Unoriginal]

Faust's corruption was gradual. This is something that I think is better represented by a 20 level progression, instead of the sudden boost of a powerful item.

Depends of the version and the interpretation, but generally this is not the case. Faust isn't a tale of corruption, but of the corrupt, in the sense that Faust either was already corrupt to be in the mindset to make the pact, or was corrupted the moment he agreed to it.

[MaxWilson]

(A) We call those players "Fools", up in my neck of the woods, but we are all fools one time or another. 😀

D&D, rarely can exactly match a work of fiction. Generally, just because a lot of fantasy fiction does not operate from a premise of 4-5 coequal participants.
Elric is a solo game.

That said, I agree completely regarding player agency. The flip side to the players not wanting to give up agency, is that DMs also are afraid in actually following through with (B) sufficiently sized Faustian carrots.

You have to be willing to let players freely use Stormbringer, before Stormbringer can corrupt them, and many DMs are just not willing to go there.

Which I can completely empathize with, releasing Artifacts can, should, and generally does change games.

(A) One of my great amusements as a DM is tempting the players. Ideally I want things to go disastrously wrong in a way that was completely predictable to the players, so that they are both (1) kicking themselves for giving in to temptation (vs. blaming an unfair DM), and yet (2) still going to bite the next hook I give them, instead of permanently learning a lesson.

Like, I want them sticking their heads down dark holes, even if 10% of the time that head gets whacked off, because 30% of the time they get some cool treasure or something and 10% of the time they get a cool new ability (like an extra pair of hands or blindsense from Xixchil biomodifications). I want them to be as afraid of missing out as they are of death, but still afraid of both.

So, I have zero problems with the idea of actually (B) handing out Blackrazor early on in a campaign and letting Blackrazor be... itself. With all the complications that come with it. Or Nightblood, or Farslayer, or Shieldbreaker.

If your 2nd level PC defeats a Purple Worm with Nightblood (because Nightblood disintegrates whatever it wounds, on a failed DC 20 Con save), I'm not going to get upset. I'll just say "Congratulations" and then give you recognition, rewards, and responsibilities appropriate to someone who can kill a Purple Worm. You'll grow into them pretty quick (thanks to XP) or you won't, and all the while Nightblood is going to be cheerfully inviting you to slay all the "evil" it interacts with, appropriately or not.

[Thunderous Mojo]

(A)
So, I have zero problems with the idea of actually (B) handing out Blackrazor early on in a campaign and letting Blackrazor be... itself. With all the complications that come with it. Or Nightblood, or Farslayer, or Shieldbreaker.


MaxWilson...I agree with every word you posted.
"In a different reality I could have called you friend" 🖖


The campaign I started to inaugurate the official release of the 5e ruleset is something I've wanted to run for 20 years....a Sword of Power campaign.
The group is working on tracking Farslayer down, right now.

Active Gods, Numerous Active Artifacts, Active Wars...the campaign has been a blast, and having a major artifact is like possessing a suitcase nuke.....you just attracted the attention of dangerous creatures.

[Azuresun]

Eh, it's not much worse than any other patron explanation. Why is a random Pit Fiend a valid warlock patron? How can he grant powers that he himself does not possess? What are the terms of the pact? What is the patron getting out of the Pact anyway? What penalties exist if the Warlock doesn't pay up? If the patron dies, what happens to the power? What are the externalities/extended consequences to everyone else for the warlock taking this Pact? 5E essentially just treats the patron as a giant offscreen handwave (or a requirement for the DM to make a bunch of stuff up)

This makes me think of Savage Species in 3e, which gave a 10-level prestige class so that a monster like a sphinx or naga could make prophetic utterances if petitioners could solve its riddles. Whereas in 5e, I don't need to fool around with backing up every possible monster ability with specialised PRC's or whatever, I can just say they do it and not sweat the details. It's so refreshing.

Warlock pacts are very personal things with an unlimited number of permutations and possible stories, so....yes, the DM makes stuff up and talks to the player to come up with something they're both going to enjoy. This, for me, is why they're so cool.

[Unoriginal]

Campaign idea: all of the PCs start with a Legendary/Artifact weapon. And have to handle the consequences.

[Evaar]

Campaign idea: all of the PCs start with a Legendary/Artifact weapon. And have to handle the consequences.

Sure, sounds like a cool idea for a campaign.

But if it involves a Hexblade specifically using that weapon, then RAW that artifact cannot be their pact weapon. Which locks them out of all the Pact of the Blade invocations that would bring them up to baseline martial capability.


You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can't affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way.

The mechanics of Pact of the Blade run directly counter to the flavor of the Hexblade subclass.

[MaxWilson]

The campaign I started to inaugurate the official release of the 5e ruleset is something I've wanted to run for 20 years....a Sword of Power campaign.
The group is working on tracking Farslayer down, right now.

Hahahaha! Farslayer? That's going to end well for the players.

For anyone who isn't in on the joke: Farslayer (https://twelveswordsofpower.fandom.com/wiki/Farslayer) is a sword that, when thrown, can kill anyone, anywhere in the world. The problem is, whoever you just killed, there's now a sword sticking out of his chest that can kill... anyone, anywhere in the world, including you. Lots of Montagues-and-Capulets/Hatfields-and-McCoys killing tends to be the result.

That sounds like a fun campaign. :)

[Thunderous Mojo]

The mechanics of Pact of the Blade run directly counter to the flavor of the Hexblade subclass.

I always forget that Pact of the Blade, explicitly excludes making Artifacts or Sentient weapons your Pactblade. Probably, because it is a rule not worth remembering.

I absolutely would handwave that rule away. A PC Warlock trying to find a way to convince a sentient magic item to work with themself and their Patron, seems like a fun scenario to me.

One Patron scenario I imagine is a Ryu, where the Master is a sentient Magic Sword.
The Master seeks to train the Perfect Warrior, whom The Master will then allow to wield them, in a battle of destiny, long foretold.

I envision a foul mouthed Dancing Sword, with a Meredith Burgess like Demeanor from Rocky. Now Imagine a cult devoted to it.

[Evaar]

I always forget that Pact of the Blade, explicitly excludes making Artifacts or Sentient weapons your Pactblade. Probably, because it is a rule not worth remembering.

I just find it absolutely chef's kiss perfect that they would design a subclass around the flavor of sentient weapons, and that it would be designed to combo with a class feature that specifically excludes the use of sentient weapons.

There's a whole lot I really like about 5e, but that's a perfect example of the sort of baffling sloppiness that it often exhibits.

[Unoriginal]

Hahahaha! Farslayer? That's going to end well for the players.

For anyone who isn't in on the joke: Farslayer (https://twelveswordsofpower.fandom.com/wiki/Farslayer) is a sword that, when thrown, can kill anyone, anywhere in the world. The problem is, whoever you just killed, there's now a sword sticking out of his chest that can kill... anyone, anywhere in the world, including you. Lots of Montagues-and-Capulets/Hatfields-and-McCoys killing tends to be the result.

That sounds like a fun campaign. :)

Doesn't that just mean you're fine as long as you select targets close enough for you to take back the sword right after the killing?

Like, for example, anything within longbow range?


Sure, sounds like a cool idea for a campaign.

Which weapons would work best for it, though?

I'm endeared by the idea of a noob with the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords, but beyond that...

[MaxWilson]

Doesn't that just mean you're fine as long as you select targets close enough for you to take back the sword right after the killing?

Like, for example, anything within longbow range?


Well, maybe. Even longbow range would be a little dicey unless you absolutely know for sure that no one is around but you.

Only using it at close range is a prudent way to use it, but I predict that's not how it's going to work out for Thunderous Mojo's players. Eventually something will come along that needs a long-range kill and they're going to have to decide whether and how to use it or face the consequences of not using it. E.g. killing a lich even semi-permanently is normally incredibly difficult, but Farslayer could kill its phylactery no matter where it's hidden.

[Evaar]

Which weapons would work best for it, though?

I'm endeared by the idea of a noob with the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords, but beyond that...

Well, I'd probably try to go all Lord of the Rings and make it something the players absolutely do not want to use unless they have no other options whatsoever. And set some things after them.

So something like the Sword of Kas. Cults of Vecna are mobilizing to bring the dark god back bodily into the world. One of the steps involves an assault on a keep where the sword rests. Protecting the keep is a lost cause, it's undermanned because no one wants the job of guarding an evil sword that tries to corrupt you. So before the keep falls, the characters are given the sword and told to get it to X, who's a great enough hero that they can wield it without succumbing to its corruption and put down Vecna.

And of course when they get there X is either dead or corrupted or missing, and ultimately it ends up being one of the characters who has to use the sword.

That's off the top of my head, anyway. Might not be a very accurate representation of what the Sword of Kas does, as I'm going from memory.

[JoeJ]

I just find it absolutely chef's kiss perfect that they would design a subclass around the flavor of sentient weapons, and that it would be designed to combo with a class feature that specifically excludes the use of sentient weapons.

There's a whole lot I really like about 5e, but that's a perfect example of the sort of baffling sloppiness that it often exhibits.

If your patron is envisioned as a powerful sentient weapon, it kind of fits that it wouldn't allow you to make an alliance with a different sentient weapon than itself.

[Evaar]

If your patron is envisioned as a powerful sentient weapon, it kind of fits that it wouldn't allow you to make an alliance with a different sentient weapon than itself.

That’s not what the patron is. Read above. It’s a shadowfell entity that creates and/or manifests as sentient weapons. So you might expect that, as a weapon specialist making a pact with a being whose only known hobby is making sentient weapons, you might be able to use a sentient weapon.

[Edea]

Netherese shades that have long passed into mere shadowstuff, possessed of immense power but now barely sapient? Maybe forming pacts with mortals and becoming hexblade weapons is the only way for such beings to experience physical reality again.

[TyGuy]

"You had the power in you all along kid! Seriously, I think you might be infected or something. You should get that checked out..."

The Hexblade works great as an incorporeal entity that has latched on to the PC as a means to grow in power.

I described my idea to a buddy and he let me know what I effectively created without realizing, Shadow-Venom.

But it works so well imo. It's why the seemingly week 10 strength 14 Dexterity PC can swing a greatsword in combat.

[QuintonBeck]

A Hexblade idea I'm really excited about is essentially an abandoned Death Star in a Spelljammer campaign. This space super weapon, "The Dragonblade", was forged through the stripping and fusing of powerful dragon souls to create a weapon platform capable of killing Witchlight Marauders during the Second Unhuman War. After UWII ended the Elves didn't want to be reminded/let others know what they had done in their most desperate hour and hurled the Dragonblade out into an extremely dangerous Crystal Sphere and threw up "Do Not Enter" signs around the entrance to the sphere. Whatever remains of the dragons' spirits have congealed into a consciousness and this is the PC's patron.

[Joe the Rat]

Hahahaha! Farslayer? That's going to end well for the players.

For anyone who isn't in on the joke: Farslayer (https://twelveswordsofpower.fandom.com/wiki/Farslayer) is a sword that, when thrown, can kill anyone, anywhere in the world. The problem is, whoever you just killed, there's now a sword sticking out of his chest that can kill... anyone, anywhere in the world, including you. Lots of Montagues-and-Capulets/Hatfields-and-McCoys killing tends to be the result.

That sounds like a fun campaign. :)

Eldritch Knight says "As a bonus action...".


Warlock fluff is downright terrible across the board. There's a fair bit of vaguery in the pacts, but that can work in the service of the game - the exact nature of the contract, the status of the deal, if it is about power or knowledge, or even whether or not one or more sides is aware of the deal lets you shape it to your needs. Maybe your plot is about your job. Maybe that's all backstory, and your entire relationship with your patron is as an employment reference. "You sold your soul and still have to work for entity X" is the same lazy assumption as "Grandma was a freak" is for sorcerers.

But the other patrons generally point to a specific type of entity (an entity of the lower planes, and entity of the upper planes, damn faeries, Lovecraftian Elder Combo Platter) with matching patron features. Hexblade is just kind of... <vague handwave>.



Pure awesomenessD&D has a tendency to fall into the Old Fantasy tropes - gods have humanoid bodies, and exist "over there somewhere", moving between planes is basically gateway teleporting to alternate more or less normal realities. We need to re-inject this sort of hyperdimensionality... which can still result in "wielding a god-weapon that looks like a weird sword." I don't know if this is canonical, but I remember seeing a take on Stormbringer not being "evil sentient soul-sucking weapon" but "hyperdimensional demonic entity that expresses in 3+1 dimensions as a black blade." A little blending and you have the greater entity-weapon feeding you power through your noospheric aspect, and occasionally extruding into 3space as a pact weapon (but with nowhere near the full potency, as that tends to break space).