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View Full Version : Gamer Drama Player help - two of my fellow players are dice cheaters, what to do?



Mastikator
2020-10-27, 04:59 AM
Before I explain the situation I'll say what I mean by dice cheating. It's the act of rolling the dice, picking it up before anyone else has seen it and announcing the results wrongly. (could it mean other things in other contexts?)

Two of my fellow players are doing this in a group, I've seen them both do it on many occasions on many sessions. They both use dice that are hard to read (that they claim are easy to read, they ain't, they have to hold it 2 cm from their eyeballs to see it, my dice results can be seen from across the table by them).

The DM doesn't seem to know.

This has caused several problems.

The DM has problems with adjusting challenging enemies for the group
Some of the other players (me included) really stuggle to feel useful next to these cheating players
I've personally lost respect for these two players



The way I see it my options are

Do nothing, the problems with persist
Tell the DM (there's a risk that he'll accuse me of lying) - very high risk of drama
Join them, I own dice that are hard to read, I never use them because of that. I could use them to do exactly what the two others are doing. But it would hurt the other players even more and would diminish my own sense of self respect
Tell the DM expecting this to end the game for me, if not the whole group
Wait until I catch a player red-handed and correct him. This would require that I sit right next to one of them and watch his dice like a hawk
Just quit again (read spoilers) and probably say goodbye to playing roleplaying games for the foreseeable future


I feel like all of the above options are really terrible.

More semi-pertinent information in spoilers

This group plays more than one game, sometimes I've even DM'd my own game.
Last year I quit the group due to too many murder-hobo players, hack/slash DM and lottery loot system, those players left and I returned after talking to the DM.
Last game I argued with the DM twice because he applied the rules inconsistently and against the player handbook (which he said he would follow to the letter).
Last two games one of the players has been super depressed about encounters because every time non-cheaters (almost) die while cheaters do everything perfectly. The DM seems to think "it's just the dice".

I'm really not OK with players cheating, it's rude to the whole group, the cheater has more fun but the price is paid by everyone else. With many cheaters it's starting to feel like a lot.

MoiMagnus
2020-10-27, 05:43 AM
First step is to calmly analyse your memories to consider how much you are certain that they cheat. But I suppose that if you are posting here, you already did that.

My 2 cents are: leave the table, but tell the DM and the other players exactly why you are leaving.

1) Unless a miracle occurs, this table is probably dead for you. Do you really see yourself continuing to play with them if they promise they will never cheat again? Do you see yourself having to constantly check on them? Who knows if they are not also making convenient addition errors on their character sheet? And loosing two players at once from a table is pretty much a death sentence for most campaigns. Additionally, with all the negative experiences you had recently on RPGs, you might need a break from this hobby.
2) Tell the DM and the other players. They have the right to know. Especially the depressed player. The cheaters don't need to be there when you make the accusation, you don't own them anything. In particular, you own them a second chance, and you don't own them the opportunity to gaslight you into apologizing or involve you in a drama.

I wish you the best. Your free time is worth more than RPG horror stories and frustrating gameplay experiences.

[As for your first question: there are other ways to cheat with dice, some peoples use d20 with multiple time the same high numbers on them, some peoples use a weighed die, some peoples alternate between "pre-rolling the die" and "just rolling the die for fun, but that's not a pre-roll" depending on the result of the die, or the soft version of accidentally dropping the die and deciding a posteriori if it counts as a roll or not. Fortunately, I did not have to deal with peoples like that personally]

Altheus
2020-10-27, 07:18 AM
You basically have a decision to make, either you can live with playing alongside dice cheaters or you can't.

Based on what you say in the spoilers I'd say you need to find or found a different group, this one seems doomed to upset people.

ExLibrisMortis
2020-10-27, 08:22 AM
In a recent thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620305-A-Player-is-Being-difficult), the problem of dice cheating came up. In that case, the game was played on roll20, and one player supposedly preferred physical dice because they were unlucky with the d20 die roller. This was, of course, a bull**** excuse, but the DM in question made an extra effort and logged all d20 rolls in a session, which showed that the player was in fact not particularly unlucky with the d20 die roller. That's not precisely case closed and everything's fine, but at least the argument is off the table.

In this case, the DM's theory seems to be that "it's just the dice". With a bit of effort, you could show that it isn't. Log all d20 rolls, calculate the averages (+standard deviations if you're thorough), and show that it is statistically impossible that it's a matter of luck.

(I realize it's a lot of effort. The game doesn't really sound like it's worth it. Still, an option worth considering--data can be convincing.)

aglondier
2020-10-27, 08:57 AM
You play to have fun. If something is preventing you from having fun, then it is definitely time to change something.

In this case, your best bet is to walk away. Your psychological and emotional well-being are far more important than this game. Make sure to let the depressed player know this too. Perhaps you can start a new game later. Without the cheaters.

Take care of yourself, far too many gamers get caught up in drama and fall into unhealthy situations. I have lost two gamer friends to suicide over the years. This year has been hard enough on our community.

Jason
2020-10-27, 09:58 AM
If your DM has some experience he (or she - I'll just use "he" from here on for simplicity's sake) probably does know or at least suspect that these players are cheating, and is probably wondering how best to address the issue. He might just be waiting for another player to say they are bothered by it.

My first piece of advice is to approach the DM privately and voice your concerns. If he's a reasonable sort you may then both talk to the other non-cheaters at the table and decide what to do as a group. It may involve the DM going to the cheaters in private to see if he can get them to change their behavior or if it seems likely that the players will have to be asked to leave then it may be a group confrontation.

You might as a group set up house rules like "it's not a die roll unless everyone can see it where it lay," except the DM's rolls, of course, without even mentioning that you suspect cheating was happening.

The DM has any number of ways to rebalance against cheaters. He could have monsters focus their attacks on what seem to be the most effective party members, for instance, and fudge a few attack and damage rolls to make the monster's attacks stick and do real damage. I wouldn't generally advise this approach, but it is how I dealt with a chronic cheater once when the group decided they didn't care much that he was cheating and just wanted a suitable challenge for the rest of them.

You could decide to just ignore it, if your friendship is more important than a game about pretend elves. They might grow out of it when they realize they're only cheating themselves of a fair challenge. Sometimes it takes a while for players to realize that winning fair and square is much more satisfying.

I would not "just start cheating too." That won't solve anything.

I would not try to catch them red-handed and make a public accusation in the middle of a game. That will likely lead to arguments and ill feelings.

Duff
2020-11-04, 06:19 PM
If your DM has some experience he (or she - I'll just use "he" from here on for simplicity's sake) probably does know or at least suspect that these players are cheating, and is probably wondering how best to address the issue. He might just be waiting for another player to say they are bothered by it.

My first piece of advice is to approach the DM privately and voice your concerns. If he's a reasonable sort you may then both talk to the other non-cheaters at the table and decide what to do as a group. It may involve the DM going to the cheaters in private to see if he can get them to change their behavior or if it seems likely that the players will have to be asked to leave then it may be a group confrontation.

You might as a group set up house rules like "it's not a die roll unless everyone can see it where it lay," except the DM's rolls, of course, without even mentioning that you suspect cheating was happening.

The DM has any number of ways to rebalance against cheaters. He could have monsters focus their attacks on what seem to be the most effective party members, for instance, and fudge a few attack and damage rolls to make the monster's attacks stick and do real damage. I wouldn't generally advise this approach, but it is how I dealt with a chronic cheater once when the group decided they didn't care much that he was cheating and just wanted a suitable challenge for the rest of them.

You could decide to just ignore it, if your friendship is more important than a game about pretend elves. They might grow out of it when they realize they're only cheating themselves of a fair challenge. Sometimes it takes a while for players to realize that winning fair and square is much more satisfying.

I would not "just start cheating too." That won't solve anything.

I would not try to catch them red-handed and make a public accusation in the middle of a game. That will likely lead to arguments and ill feelings.


There's a lot of good advice here. If you don't want to walk away, these are the ones to try

zarionofarabel
2020-11-04, 07:53 PM
Dang it! I was gonna suggest cheating along with them but that was poo pooed up thread.

JNAProductions
2020-11-04, 08:01 PM
Yeah-I'll echo the "Walk away, and let them know why."

If the game is not fun, it's not worth playing in.

Segev
2020-11-04, 08:54 PM
You could talk to them privately. Tell them that you think they're perhaps fudging their numbers, and explain how it's hurting you and the others because of the DM calibrating to their performance. Try not to be accusatory, as much as possible, but explain it as a problem.

You could talk to them privately, and suggest that you and others have trouble seeing their dice when they roll them. This still has an implicit accusation that you don't trust them, but it's a bit gentler. Ask them to use dice that are easier to read. "We read them easily!" they might say, but you can respond, "My eyes aren't that good. Could you use some even easier to read, so everyone can pick out what you rolled?"

You could talk to them privately, and be a little more subtle. Give them a wink-and-a-nod excuse to use by mentioning that you've seen their dice come up really good a lot, and that you think maybe their lucky dice are not actually fair dice. You're not blaming them for liking them, of course, but you suggest that perhaps they should use different dice.

You could talk to the GM, explaining your concerns. Focus more on his design of encounters, though, and let him know that by calibrating for the players with outrageous dice luck, he's making it unfun for the others. You can either suggest that you believe they're cheating and ask him to make them roll their dice and let him see them before he accepts the roll, or you can suggest he just tone down encounters if he's okay with "just the dice" leading to some players being really good.

You can wait before talking to the GM, or offer when you talk to the GM, as you record everybody's dice rolls for a session or few, and then show statistically that they're rolling better than everyone else unrealistically often, suggesting cheating (or unfair dice they don't realize are unfair).

You could bring it up to the whole table. Exactly as you did here, as politely as you can.

Ken Murikumo
2020-11-05, 10:00 AM
Give them with obnoxiously high visibility dice. Like yellow dice with black numbers. Tell them the gift was a joke so they "don't have to pick the die up & can see it on the table", but imply that you know they're cheating. Guilt trip them if they use other dice. Do all this jokingly and in high spirits.

I did this in meatspace. The player in question is an older fellow with dubious vision and picks the die up to investigate the number rolled. There's been plenty of times where I noticed it was a single digit number but when the die was picked up and checked, it magically became a 19 (and a critical threat).

"Here, i got you this so you don't have to strain your eyes to read the die. It's comically high vis so we can all see, so no more cheating! :wink:" wink wink, nudge nudge.

The group got a good laugh, i made my point without publicly announcing it, and only spent $5 on an ugly chessex die set.

Composer99
2020-11-05, 10:53 AM
I had a player who other players were concerned was dice cheating. Hard to prove since we've been playing online and I haven't forced everyone to get roll20 accounts to use that service (I present a browser tab with a player-facing screen on Google Meet).

Fortunately, I had an easy out of saying, "hey, folks, we aren't getting excited (one way or another) about one another's die rolls, which is part of the fun, so let's switch to an online die rolling service". We use rolz.org (http://rolz.org), which we like because, again, not everyone needs an account.

The nice thing was that this was generally true - it's actually really engaging to watch players' rolls come up, especially when they're especially good or especially bad, where you can see them. Even with players who weren't dodgy about dice, I've found it's more fun watching their rolls happen in real time. So we were able to make the switch without having to baldly state we thought anyone was cheating, thus avoiding awkwardness, drama, etc.

Might be something to suggest, depending on your table arrangements?

Spiderswims
2020-11-05, 11:14 AM
My two coppers is to just leave the game.

And I would not bother telling anyone 'why'.

Even if you did try to talk it out, there is a good chance it would not work out anyway. It's rare of cheaters or dishonest people to just suddenly change....even when they get caught. The most likely outcome is they stop doing whatever for a short time, and then after that short time just do it again.

It is a far better use of your time to find a good gaming group. Or even make a good gaming group. Trust me it's worth it.

Pauly
2020-11-05, 10:22 PM
If they are cheating at dice what else are they cheating at?

Inventory management? eg ‘forgetting’ to mark off a healing potion as being used.
Character Management? eg ‘miscalculating’ the number of HPs their characters have.
Action management? eg Oh, that 4 step move is suddenly a 3 step move and I have enough actions to attack.

People who routinely cheat at dice routinely cheat at other aspects of the game. If they are doing it routinely then it’s an established pattern of behavior. You are not going to change it, only the DM has the power to enforce it.

There are 3 solutions.
1) cheat just as hard as they do.
2) leave the game.
3) Become the DM and make it your job to police die rolls etc.

Mr Beer
2020-11-05, 10:28 PM
Sounds like you have issues with the DM and also with the players.

I view the RPG table a bit like a team at work, the players are the employees and the DM is a supervisor. If you have problems with players but your DM will back you, that's manageable. If you have problems with your DM and the players will back you, also manageable. If you have problems with both, gooooooooooood luck. At that point I tend to examine the problem in the context of "am I going to walk away or not?".

By the sound of it, it's kind of a crap game anyway. I would walk.

Jay R
2020-11-05, 11:50 PM
A. If you disapprove of what they are doing, then don't do it yourself. That just leads to you disapproving of yourself. You also lose the right to disapprove of them.

B. Bad gaming is worse than no gaming. Staying in a game that upsets you, well, upsets you.

C. Decide if you owe these players an explanation of why you disapprove of what they do. This is not an easy question. Are they close friends, totally apart from this game? Are they people who look to you for understanding and approval? Some people you should just walk away from.

D. Do not try to fix the situation unless these people expect moral instruction from you. It just won't work.

E. Decide whether or not you can enjoy the game as it is. If the frustration is greater than the enjoyment, and you don't owe those people emotional support, then walk away -- without telling people why.

EggKookoo
2020-11-06, 10:45 AM
[As for your first question: there are other ways to cheat with dice, some peoples use d20 with multiple time the same high numbers on them, some peoples use a weighed die, some peoples alternate between "pre-rolling the die" and "just rolling the die for fun, but that's not a pre-roll" depending on the result of the die, or the soft version of accidentally dropping the die and deciding a posteriori if it counts as a roll or not. Fortunately, I did not have to deal with peoples like that personally]

I don't worry about cheaters at my table so much, but we also use dice towers. If the die didn't go into the tower, it's not a roll. Weeds out a lot of ambiguity.

Mastikator
2020-11-06, 11:07 AM
I don't worry about cheaters at my table so much, but we also use dice towers. If the die didn't go into the tower, it's not a roll. Weeds out a lot of ambiguity.

I didn't know those things existed, but now I want one. I'll definitely insist on using it in my game where I DM.

ATHATH
2020-11-06, 04:02 PM
Tell 'em. Cheating is a serious issue, and no DM in their right mind would kick you out of their game for reporting it (in private), no matter what rules disputes you've had with them in the past. If they don't believe you, ask them to at least keep an eye out for it in future sessions, and they should be able to witness the cheating with their own eyes.

Even if you leave the game, the cheating won't stop, and it'll continue to bring down the game for the non-cheating players (including the DM). I don't think that just using brightly colored dice will work, as if they're cheating with their dice, they're probably cheating in other ways as well. If the DM does allow the cheaters to remain in the game (which isn't necessarily a bad thing; second chances are fine), make sure to watch their character sheets like a hawk and/or have the group transition to using online tools for dice rolls and inventory management, just in case.

Lord Torath
2020-11-06, 04:06 PM
Prankin Pottery (https://prankinpottery.com/) makes several dice towers (although they appear to be rather expensive). I'm sure there are other sources, too.

Segev
2020-11-06, 04:16 PM
I don't worry about cheaters at my table so much, but we also use dice towers. If the die didn't go into the tower, it's not a roll. Weeds out a lot of ambiguity.

Doesn't help if the cheating is post-roll; the OP indicated they pick up the dice before anybody can read them and declare the number they want.

EggKookoo
2020-11-06, 05:05 PM
Doesn't help if the cheating is post-roll; the OP indicated they pick up the dice before anybody can read them and declare the number they want.

Yeah, there's no guaranteed solution. But having a central place where dice are rolled, combined with the obvious act of dropping the die in the tower, makes it harder to cheat. You reach over to put the die in and that draws attention. Eyes are on the tower tray when the die comes up. It'll help unless the DM is tacitly in on it.

At my table, no one touches the die. You roll, the die sits there until the DM has had a chance to look at it. Once the DM (me, typically) has seen the number, you can pick it back up. If the DM can't make out the number, the die is too small.

denthor
2020-11-06, 05:23 PM
First off some people must win at all costs.

2nd you mentioned you took the mantle of running the game. Become the forever DM. That fix sucks but an option.

3rd along the lines of number 2 peel the other players that are non cheaters and run a game with them only.

4 I like the dice idea.

5 live with it, I have played with cheats before not real fun I agree. The DM is mathematically clueless for allowing this.

6 Get them into situations where rolling dice is not real option talk to the NPC'S information gather. Get supplies. Find hooks to investigate. Role play. This may cause them to take a night off then not come back.

7 I have played with people that just want to roll dice. Was it the owner or barmaid that took my drink order I roll. Did the serve the right kind of beer I roll. Can I I have seen four rolls to get a beer in a tavern. Got it sucks to.