Questions with item creation cost

[bean illus]

My interest was sparked by this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620967-Continuos-spell-effect-items) on spells for continuous items.

I found a few, and wanted to explore ways to decrease cost, and combine spell effects. I hope playgrounders can answer my questions, and help ironing out my assumptions. Here's the formula for continous items:

(Caster Level) x (Spell Level) x 2000 x (duration modifier)

Rounds or rounds/level = x4
Minutes or minutes/level = x2
Tens of minutes or 10min/level = x1.5
Hours or hours/level = x1
24 hours or days/level = half

I'll start with one assumption, and one spell effect. The assumption is that, though the minimum caster level to create wondrous items is 3, an item can be made at the spells minimum caster level. It's too expensive otherwise, and I've read of examples in print.

The spell I'll suggest is message.
Message, Wiz 0, 10 min/level = 1.5k

CL 1 x SL 0.5 x 2k x 1.5 = 1.5k

Is that right?

I want to stack it with:
Speak with Animals, Druid 1, Ranger 1, 1 min/level = 4k

On a slotted item:
4k + (1.5k x 1.5) = 6.25k

On a slotless item:
(4k + (1.5k x .75)) x 2 = 10.25

But if 4 ranks of handle animal are required to use it, then it cost 10% less?

How much do i have wrong?

EDIT: Could that be a hat? Call both of those interactions?

[Crake]

Rounds or rounds/level = x4
Minutes or minutes/level = x3
Tens of minutes or 10min/level = x2
Hours or hours/level = x1
24 hours or days/level = half

For the record, some of these numbers, which seem to be copied from the original thread, are in fact wrong.

Minutes should be x2, and 10s of minutes should be x1.5, the rest are correct.

As for message, if you read the spell, it actually targets your recipients, not yourself, and as such isn't really useful on a continuous item, as they only affect the wearer. What you want for an item of message is something that is use activated.

As for prices, you've got them wrong, because you're using the incorrect multipliers, but if you just replace them with the proper x2 for minutes and x1.5 for 10s of minutes, you'd have it correct.

[bean illus]

For the record, some of these numbers, which seem to be copied from the original thread, are in fact wrong.

Minutes should be x2, and 10s of minutes should be x1.5, the rest are correct.

Lol, thanks. That helps explain why some items seemed to be creeping in price.



As for prices, you've got them wrong, because you're using the incorrect multipliers, but if you just replace them with the proper x2 for minutes and x1.5 for 10s of minutes, you'd have it correct.

Thanks I've adjusted the formulas and prices in the OP.



As for message, if you read the spell, it actually targets your recipients, not yourself, and as such isn't really useful on a continuous item, as they only affect the wearer. What you want for an item of message is something that is use activated.

How would that work? Same price? As a standard action point at one person and whisper for 10 min? If the spell is is dropped or otherwise ends, it can be started again with another standard action?

Hat of Animal Whispering. You must have 4 ranks in handle animal to use this item.

Speak with Animals, Druid 1, Ranger 1, 1 min/level = 4k continuous.
Message, Wiz 0, 10 min/level = 1k use activated.
CL 1 x SL 0.5 x 2k = 1k


On a slotted item:
4k + (1k x 1.5) = 5.5k x .9 = 4,950 gp.

Is this formula ok? What about below? Should a slotless item be deducted 10% before doubling for slotless (which is the same order of operations as a slotted item), or visa versa. ...wait, ... doesn't matter?)

On a slotless item:
(4k + (1k x .75)) x .9 x 2 = 8,550 gp.


So, if that checks out, let's add a spell ability.

Charm Animal, Druid 1, Ranger 1, 1 hour/level is also targets recipients, so needs either use activated, or charges per day?

I don't understand the charges per day formula. It reads "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)". Divide what?

X ÷ (5÷1=5) = ?

Is X the cost of the either command word or use activated base price? What's the difference, besides price, ... the command word?

[aglondier]

Simple version of uses per day is to divide cost by 5 and multiply by the number of uses.

[Morty_Jhones]

looks good,

But you fergot the extra charge for having 2 or more abilities or affects on an item.

Hightest cost X2

[aglondier]

Extra charge is for unrelated abilities. For abilities that are similar, that follow a theme, you get the multiple ability discount.

[bean illus]

Sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding the meaning of some of the shortness in the answers.


Extra charge is for unrelated abilities. For abilities that are similar, that follow a theme, you get the multiple ability discount.

How similar do the abilities need to be? Speaking to animals and whispering to animals sounds similar to me.

I'll write my formula below, and maybe you can advise.


looks good,

But you fergot the extra charge for having 2 or more abilities or affects on an item.

Hightest cost X2

I'll be more clear, so it's easier for folks to show me what they mean.


Simple version of uses per day is to divide cost by 5 and multiply by the number of uses.

Let's do charm animal please. Single effect on a hat (interaction).
Charm Animal, Druid 1, Ranger 1, 1 hour/level

Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
C ÷ (5 ÷ x = y) = ?
C ÷ (5 ÷ 1 = 5) = ?
C ÷ (5 ÷ 1) = ?
I understand how to do the formula, and what x and y are (i think).

I don't know how to find C. It's targeted, so either use activated or command word?

CL 1 x SL 1 x 2,000 = 2,000 gp
Is the value of C = 2,000 gp?

I'm missing something.

Here's a question. Can an item be made that has both a continuous effect, and a use activated effect?

I suppose I'm looking at 3 projects, before i try to combine then into 1 item.

1 Hat of speak with animals, continuous
2 Hat of message, use activated
3 Hat of charm animal, ?

I guess I'll go read it again.

[aglondier]

A spell like Charm Animal is better memorised than set into an enchanted item, because the item doesn't improve.

That said, Hat of Charm Animal.
Caster level 1, spell level 1 (cast as a druid), command word, usable once per day.
1 x 1 x 1800 ÷ (5/1) = 1800 x (1/5) = 360 base price
If you are crafting it yourself that comes to 180gp (cost price = half base price)

Hat of Message.
Caster level 1, spell level 0 (cast as a wizard), use activated, usable at will.
1 x 0.5 x 2000 = 1000 base price
If you are crafting it yourself that comes to 500gp.

Hat of Speak With Animals.
Caster level 1, spell level 1 (cast as a druid), continuous, spell duration 1 min/level.
1 x 1 x 2000 x 2 = 4000 base price
If you are crafting it yourself that comes to 2000gp.

Now, combining those effects...

Hat of Charming and Speaking With Animals
Charm Animal and Speak with Animals fall with an easy 'dealing with animals' theme, so...
Speak with animals - 4000gp
Charm Animal 1/day - 360 x 0.75 = 270gp
For a total 4270gp base price, or a 2135gp crafting cost.

Hat of All Three
Unfortunately, message isn't on the druid or ranger spell list, so automatically falls outside the theme.
Speak with animals - 4000gp
Charm animal 1/day - 270gp
Message at will - 1000 x 1.5 = 1500gp
For a total of 5770gp base price, or a 2885gp crafting cost.

[Crake]

looks good,

But you fergot the extra charge for having 2 or more abilities or affects on an item.

Hightest cost X2

This is actually incorrect, it was errataed to be "Multiply lower cost by 1.5" rather than "Multiply higher cost by 2".

[bean illus]

Thanks for your time. It looks much like i thought it would. I hope someone can answer a few more questions uestions.


A spell like Charm Animal is better memorised than set into an enchanted item, because the item doesn't improve.

I was seeing it as a non-caster item, for no reason in particular. Actually there is a sorta reason; it sounds cool.



That said, Hat of Charm Animal.
Caster level 1, spell level 1 (cast as a druid), command word, usable once per day.
1 x 1 x 1800 ÷ (5/1) = 1800 x (1/5) = 360 base price
If you are crafting it yourself that comes to 180gp (cost price = half base price)

I will calculate full prices. Items can always be made for half price.

That price is cheap. Thanks for the example of 1/day. But, can charm animal be crafted as usable at will, either command word or use activated? I know how to do the math, but I'm not confident whether there are reasons against it.
Is any item with 5 or more charges/day the same price as a use activated/command word, at full price (2,000/1,800)?



Hat of Message.
Caster level 1, spell level 0 (cast as a wizard), use activated, usable at will.
1 x 0.5 x 2000 = 1000 base price ...


That's pretty affordable, and cool, because speak with animals doesn't cancel messaging party members.



Hat of Speak With Animals.
Caster level 1, spell level 1 (cast as a druid), continuous, spell duration 1 min/level.
1 x 1 x 2000 x 2 = 4000 base price ...


A bit pricey for low levels, but pennies for higher levels.



Now, combining those effects...

Hat of Charming and Speaking With Animals
Charm Animal and Speak with Animals fall with an easy 'dealing with animals' theme, so...
Speak with animals - 4000gp
Charm Animal 1/day - 360 x 0.75 = 270gp
For a total 4270gp base price, ... .

... nice, nice ...



Hat of All Three
Unfortunately, message isn't on the druid or ranger spell list, so automatically falls outside the theme.
Speak with animals - 4000gp
Charm animal 1/day - 270gp
Message at will - 1000 x 1.5 = 1500gp
For a total of 5770gp base price, ... .

So, can we drop the price? With the "skills required" clause? If the item requires 4 ranks Handle Animal, the price is lowered 10%?

*****
*****
While we're at it, i want to consider a few minor boost. A skill competence bonus is cheap, and would be pretty on this item thematically.
The cost is bonus (+2) squared (= +4) × 100 (= 400gp.

I see the ability as within the 'dealing with animals' theme, so reduce price accordingly?

Hat of the Animal Whisperer
Speak with animals - 4000
+2 Handle Animal - 400 x 0.75 = 300
Charm animal 1/day - 360 x 0.5 = 180
Message at will - 1000 x 1.5 = 1500
For a total of 5980 gp base price

Reduce by 10% for the required 4 ranks HA,
= 5,382 gp base price. Correct?

Can that price be lowered, perhaps by making speak with animals use activated at will?


#####
(I suppose that if i REALLY wanted to drop the price, i could make everything 1/day. hmmm ...)

Not to complicate the workshop, but is this right?

Hat of the Animal Whisperer - Lesser
+2 Handle Animal = 400
Speak with animals 1/day = 360 x .75 = 270
Charm animal 1/day = 360 x .5 = 180
TOTAL = 750

Reduce by 10% for the required 4 ranks HA,
= 675 gp base price.

That's available at first level fighter. Fun toy.