I suddenly find myself wanting to play a core only dwarf monk

[Particle_Man]

I mean, I realize it is suboptimal.

With a generous 32 point by I could get str 16, dex 14, con 16, int 8, wis 16, chr 6. So pretty cool.

I guess I would go for Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows and Improved Trip as the bonus feats. For regular feats get the Spring Attack tree, then weapon focus (unarmed) and then the three feats that improve saves by +2.

For skills, just listen, spot and tumble.

So if I played this, what would a DM, and other players, have to watch out for to make sure the character was not completely overshadowed?

[lylsyly]

Make everyone else play a commoner!!! ;-D)))))

[Kelb_Panthera]

'Bout all that could be done to address that is to absolutely shower him in non-core gear specifically to address either the utter dearth of decent offense or with an eye towards upcoming challenges.

You -can- do this if you want but please do so only if you know that won't cause a problem with your group.

[tyckspoon]

You would need to focus really hard on using your disabling special attack modes, I think, and the DM needs to play along in giving you frequent targets that are subject to being effectively grappled and/or tripped. Any version of Big Sword Guy is going to outdamage you handily, you don't have enough skill points to try to lean into the Monk's skill access, and casters are.. well, casters. I would consider taking Stunning Fist as one of your bonus feats instead of Improved Grapple - Monk is pretty much the only class that can reasonably use it, both by bypassing its kind of annoying prereqs and by getting bonus uses of it. If you find yourself wanting Imp. Grapple as well it's not too hard to grab as a normal feat.

Edit: Basically what you really want to do, the thing that nobody else is likely going to be able to do, is use your improved speed plus movement skills (Tumble/Jump, primarily) to try to break through a defensive minion cordon and grapple/Stun a caster or similar high-value and physically weak target in the back of an enemy group. Unfortunately in order to actually *do* that your DM basically has to arrange the combats to let it happen - it's not something that comes up organically from following the rules much, whether because you just don't actually have that much movement, because the minions you try to slip past can just turn around and paste you, because the 'caster' is actually a demon or similar and has better physical stats than you..

[H_H_F_F]

"Troll in the playground" indeed.

But as a thought experiment: If I were DMing a game with a certain intended power level, and a player was trying to go way beyond that level, I would first ask and advise them not to. If they insisted, I would make sure they were not overshadowed in the game as a whole by making their choices relevant outside of battle. For your example, off the top of my head: have monks and monasteries play important roles in the plot, and have the player as the main "bridge" between them and the party. Third, I would find opportunities for them to mechanically shine - a pit fight comes to mind, or a traditional quarterstaff duel. Fourth, I might address it through WBL. Finally, after all of this is said and done, I would simply let them be somewhat overshadowed. If they can't handle that, they shouldn't have gone against my express wishes and advice.

[Psyren]

In a word: ..Why?

Less shortly: Even before we get to the encounter design, your build is going to have some major issues; you won't ever be particularly good at grappling as a core-only monk, due to the size limits and monster stats scaling much faster will level than yours will. Spring Attack is also not a great strategy - sure you'll have a lot of speed to use with it, but without being able to flurry you'll hit like a particularly wet noodle. I'd probably go all-in on tripping and use a quarterstaff.

I'm not seeing an upside here. At least use the PF monk core only, or better yet the Unchained one, and bring that back into 3.5?

[JNAProductions]

In a word: ..Why?

People get weird urges sometimes.

[Psyren]

People get weird urges sometimes.

I can get the urge to play a monk (I get it regularly myself.) But there are... so many better ways to scratch that itch than trying to get the 3.5 core one to any semblance of functionality.

[mabriss lethe]

OK, so. This is something I've given a lot of thought to recently.

Dwarf is a solid choice, Good stats, and fast movement counteract their poor movement.

For a core only monk, It's still better to get Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes as your bonus feats for two reasons. 1. They're generally more useful. Stunning is debatable, but Combat Reflexes is pure gold if you have a decent dex modifier. 2. It's far easier to just get Improved Grapple and Deflect Arrows as regular feats, if you're so inclined. CRef and SF require quite a bit more to nab after the fact if you plan on using them. With core only feats... You don't have a lot to chose from anyway, so competition is a lot less fierce.

Figure out your weapon loadout. Without getting into too much detail, your most viable flurry weapons are the quarterstaff, kama, and sai. Quarterstaff gives you a two handed damage option that can exceed your unarmed strikes with just a bit of optimization. My personal favorite is to wield a Kama and Sai together. It gives you the broadest base of options of your standard monk weapons. The kama is a trip weapon and deals slashing damage. The sai, you'll note, deals lower bludgeoning damage than your base unarmed strike. But, it disarms as if it were a one handed weapon, and can be thrown as part of a ranged flurry. You retain your unarmed strike as an option despite having your hands full and Shuriken are always an option when you have an empty hand (say, after throwing a sai.) It's probably worth picking up a siangham just in case you need a piercing weapon, but it probably won't see much use. (If you have access to magic weapons beyond core, a siangham becomes a very nice option with enhancements like Impaling and Fleshgrinding.) Avoid the nunchaku like the plague.

Don't be afraid to use your weapons for special attacks even if you don't have the feat support for them. Losing a weapon on a failed trip or disarm isn't a big deal for you. Just try to make sure that the odds favorable before attempting them so that you minimize the likelihood of wasting your action.

If you plan on staying a single class monk, don't be afraid to select feats that would otherwise be underwhelming on another character. Simple and Martial weapon proficiency come to mind. Simple gives you access to gauntlets and the longspear, both of which can see heavy use. The one martial weapon you'd want is the guisarme. Both of these feats also feed back into combat reflexes and improved trip. If you really feel like tying it all together, having a polearm with ki focus is great. sure, you won't be able to flurry with it, but you can really try to ruin someone's day with an attack of opportunity. (though obviously you can achieve the same results with a single level of any number of classes) Exotic Proficiency is probably not worth it, even within the confines of core only.

[Arkhios]

In a word: ..Why?

Less shortly: Even before we get to the encounter design, your build is going to have some major issues; you won't ever be particularly good at grappling as a core-only monk, due to the size limits and monster stats scaling much faster will level than yours will. Spring Attack is also not a great strategy - sure you'll have a lot of speed to use with it, but without being able to flurry you'll hit like a particularly wet noodle. I'd probably go all-in on tripping and use a quarterstaff.

I'm not seeing an upside here. At least use the PF monk core only, or better yet the Unchained one, and bring that back into 3.5?

I agree that Spring Attack isn't particularly effective on a monk. Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and Knock-Down is, IMHO, better strategy. Especially if you can consistently deal 10 or more points of damage with each hit. Plus, you can get Knock-Down easily at 6th level if you take Improved Trip as a monk bonus feat, and you have Str 15+.

You can substitute special attacks in place of your normal attacks even in Flurry of Blows. Grapple is a Special Attack, and it's a melee touch attack to start a grapple. You should get yourself power attack, because you can deal the extra damage with unarmed strikes, as hitting touch AC is a lot easier than normal AC. You deal unarmed damage after successfully grabbing your target, and if you deal enough damage (10+) you would get a free trip attempt, and if that succeeds, you get a free attack while the target is prone. And then you can continue with flurry attacks without worrying about the -4 penalty from grappling, because your target being prone gives you a +4 bonus to melee attacks against it.

[Biggus]

I mean, I realize it is suboptimal.

With a generous 32 point by I could get str 16, dex 14, con 16, int 8, wis 16, chr 6. So pretty cool.

I guess I would go for Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows and Improved Trip as the bonus feats. For regular feats get the Spring Attack tree, then weapon focus (unarmed) and then the three feats that improve saves by +2.

For skills, just listen, spot and tumble.

So if I played this, what would a DM, and other players, have to watch out for to make sure the character was not completely overshadowed?

I can't see much point in taking the save-improving feats as your saves are all going to be very high already. If "core only" includes the Monster Manual, Improved Natural Attack seems a much better choice. From the PHB list, Improved Initiative and Stunning Fist could be useful.

Oh, and ignore the people telling you not to do this. If you want to play a dwarf Monk, play a dwarf Monk.

[Arkhios]

Oh, and ignore the people telling you not to do this. If you want to play a dwarf Monk, play a dwarf Monk.

FWIW, I didn't say OP shouldn't play a Dwarf Monk, I merely echoed that Spring Attack isn't a good idea for a monk. Besides, taking the feat requires taking Combat Expertise, Dodge, and Mobility first; Which the OP simply can't do, because Combat Expertise requires an INT 13 minimum (and they have INT 8). Unless there's some ACF in use (such as Cobra Strike Fighting Style from unearthed arcana), that let's you take Spring Attack as your bonus feat.

Therefore, I suggested another, more effective - and doable - solution. Of course, that assumes core only includes most of the SRD materials (since Knock-Down is under the Divine rules/Deities & Demigods book)

[rel]

I'm not sure the stat distribution is right. As a monk you have 3/4 BaB and your signature ability, flurry of blows, gives you an additional penalty to hit.
You also lack any source of bonus damage. The build risks doing so little damage you end up irrelevant.
While the riders like trip and grapple won't have the support to be reliable.
And those issues will only get worse as you level up and start facing more dangerous enemies.

I think you're really going to focus on one thing near exclusively to be even remotely effective. Consider maxing strength putting the rest into Con and *maybe* reserving a few points to bump up a stat to meet a feat prerequisite.
From there pick only those feats and abilities that synergise with strength and try and stay away from bruisers while you use your mobility to reach and bully soft targets.

Fortunately, there is something the GM can do to help: make most of your enemies humanoids with class levels. Preferably groups of humanoids so that all the individuals are of fairly low level compared to you.

[Arkhios]

As a monk you have 3/4 BaB and your signature ability, flurry of blows, gives you an additional penalty to hit.

I'd like to point out that Flurry of Blows doesn't remain at -2 penalty indefinitely. The penalty lessens gradually. At level 5 the penalty is only -1 and at level 9 it disappears entirely. And at level 12 Greater Flurry gives your Flurry of Blows another bonus attack at your highest attack bonus. Granted, it takes a good while to come online as a decent ability to use in combat, but the point remains: it will, eventually. In the meanwhile, at least your unarmed strike damage isn't a 1d3 (which, IMHO, should be expunged from the rules everywhere: 1d3 is not an actual die. Period).

However, starting from level 9 you're just as good at fighting as a bard, cleric, druid, or even rogue with equal stats would be, relatively speaking (of course, all of them have their own little tricks that can make them slightly better at times). Monk's strength doesn't exactly rely in damage, but in support it can provide by other means (such as stunning fist, or Grapple, or Trip, or Disarm, or ridiculous amount of attacks of opportunity). There's a reason why Monk is generally considered a "support class".

[Elkad]

(which, IMHO, should be expunged from the rules everywhere: 1d3 is not an actual die. Period).

Get rid of 1d2 and 1d10 while you are at it, same reasoning.

Monks at my table are houseruled to full BAB, damage steps up every 3 levels instead of every 4, and monk weapons get die size increases as well (so a sai changes to 1d6 at 4th level).

[King of Nowhere]

The main problem with z monk is that you need to buff your attack bonus, or you hit too unreliably.
Take stunning fist, it's actually pretty strong - especially compared to alternatives.
Focus on tripping your enemies, that will give you a nice bonus to attack them.
A monk is actually stronger than most people here want to admit. Sure, you are kinda situational - you won't fare well sgainst a big brute. But you can do nice battlefield control against npc enemies

[gijoemike]

First, you are clearly wise to realize that Strength is the proper way to go for a core monk. I have seen so many dex based monks fail when limiting books to something like core. The general perception is that passive +1 or +2 to a single roll/stat is not that useful. You can do much better with Feat selection.


1. Weapon Focus unarmed only assists what will be your weakest and most limited attack for most of your character life. Don't do this. Instead POWER ATTACK. PA can be used with natural/unarmed attacks. You have good strength and you have a quarter staff to get 1.5 str to somebody's face. If you are forced to move use your PA improved trip followe by a PA QS to get 2x damage. You don't and cannot always have to flurry. If at all possible try to get a buff to str to get to that 18.

2. Mobility - you are maxing out tumble with extra movement as your classes extra ability. You should almost NEVER make use of this feat. Instead forego this and spring attack and instead select CLEAVE. Your kick just downed a baddie, It was really a spin kick hit the next guy. Cleave will give you that martial arts/batman feel of taking on groups of mooks. Don't ever worry about great cleave.


+2 Ref/FOrt/Will - get a useful ability or something that can be activated. These aren't that helpful since you have all good saves. Also BORING.

[Efrate]

Strength is good. Assuming core means srd I recommend passive way monk with a quarterstaff. Mostly because it gives you combat expertise for free so can take the improved X line. The 6th level BP us is not the worst either if you keep bluff maxed and take skill focus.

Combat expertise let's you be the tactical combat guy, disarming, tripping etc. You can take all the improved X feats since you get combat expertise for free and have those be your combat style. Hopefully you face a lot of humanoids so you can use it, but power attacking is still viable vs anything.

Get straight numerical upgrades to your quarterstaff unless you find yourself flurrying always then look to bonus effects on hit (flaming etc). Prioritize strength items. Picking up MWP may eventually be worth while foe guisarme, but just use a 2 hander and you will function okay.

[liquidformat]

I will echo what a lot of people here have been saying and suggest not getting improved grapple, the spring attack and its required feats, weapon focus, nor any of the save feats.

Going with stunning fist, combat reflexes, and improved trip and then picking up power attack, improved initiative, and deflect arrow are much better choices. If you do mean srds instead of core then passive way to pickup combat expertise and instead taking combat reflexes, stunning fist, and knock-down is pretty good too and it isn't horrible to grab skill focus bluff and put in the skill points to get the trip bonus too.

Either way you don't have the power to really make spring attack worth it and improved grapple isn't a good option in core/srd only. Make sure you get enlarge person permed too.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The obvious cheese is to buy a casting or two of polymorph any object. I assume that's not an option.

I would definitely go Stunning Fist/Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip. Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) might be quite nice. Improved Initiative is nice in core. If you want to get crazy, Power Attack + Two-Weapon Fighting with a quarterstaff wielded two-handed as main-hand and an unarmed strike off-hand is about the only way to get PA damage on a light off-hand. Your attack bonus is pretty terrible, of course, but at least you've got something to spend your feats on, and you get more attacks than anyone.

You can try getting into a PrC, but there's no real monk PrCs in core.

[Remuko]

Get rid of 1d2 and 1d10 while you are at it, same reasoning.

wut? there are 10 sided dice. A D10 is a real thing. Technically a D2 is just a coin.

[Elkad]

wut? there are 10 sided dice. A D10 is a real thing. Technically a D2 is just a coin.

There are 3-sided dice as well. And 30 sided, and a myriad of other weird shapes.

If you are kicking out the d3, it's likely because it isn't a regular polyhedron. Which leaves out the d10 as well.

I can't remember the last time I picked up a d10 anyway (don't keep any in my bag). I do have a large amount of d20 numbered 1-10 twice to use of course.

[rrwoods]

There are 3-sided dice as well. And 30 sided, and a myriad of other weird shapes.

If you are kicking out the d3, it's likely because it isn't a regular polyhedron. Which leaves out the d10 as well.

I can't remember the last time I picked up a d10 anyway (don't keep any in my bag). I do have a large amount of d20 numbered 1-10 twice to use of course.
"Not a platonic solid" is one reason to kick out a die, but feels arbitrary. The d10 is included in most D&D dice "sets" that you can buy (usually two of them, in fact). A d3 is not.

[Elkad]

"Not a platonic solid" is one reason to kick out a die, but feels arbitrary. The d10 is included in most D&D dice "sets" that you can buy (usually two of them, in fact). A d3 is not.

Only in the recent sets. Which is maybe 5% of mine.

Until then, we rolled a d10 the same way we rolled a d3. By rolling a d20 or d6 that was either numbered twice, or dividing the result by two.

[H_H_F_F]

Only in the recent sets. Which is maybe 5% of mine.

Until then, we rolled a d10 the same way we rolled a d3. By rolling a d20 or d6 that was either numbered twice, or dividing the result by two.

I'm young enough to believe you on "recent" sets, but I've been playing D&D for about 16-17 years and my first set included a d10.

On the other hand, I have run into a d3 only once in my life I believe. So I can sympathise with the reason behind the proposition - "If you're not manufacturing it, don't make us use it."

[Elkad]

I got married in 1990, which was like 6 years ago unless I stop and count.

My first D&D purchase was during the TSR die shortage (1979), so it came with paper chits in the box, plus a coupon for dice. Local store threw in a set though (of 5 dice, all different colors), so we never actually used the chits. And then the 2nd set came in from TSR. Nobody had TWO sets of dice!

My first game was prior to that, all using the DMs dice. The DM's schnauzer ate the d12, so we rolled a d6 and a modifier d6 (high you added 6 to the first roll) to get the flat 1-12 distribution after that.

In the 80s we bought individual dice at the gaming store, never sets, so while the d10 (and the d30) appeared sometime around then as novelties, nobody had one. The colors didn't match, and a d20 worked fine, and that $1.25 was a third of the cost of a good cast figurine for your new character. Around then is when d20s actually numbered 1-20 started showing up, instead of coloring one of two 1-10 sequences with a different crayon, or squinting to distinguish between "9" and "+9"

From 1997 to 2010 I didn't play at all (MMORPGs instead). Then I got invited to a game in 2010 and couldn't find my stuff, so I grabbed a couple sets - which did include a d10 and a tens d10. Once I found my old stash (and threw away that box set with the chits still in the sheets, a pile of every Dragon magazine from 52-140ish and a smattering of earlier ones, plus basically every first edition module, and probably 10 other game systems like Boot Hill - all destroyed to an undetected water leak over the boxes) , the new dice got dumped in the "loan to guests" bag, not my primary. Probably mainly because they are tumbled, and I don't like tumbled dice, I like sharp corners and the near-undetectable blemish where I carefully trimmed the sprue off myself.

My primary d10 is a purple d20 numbered 1-10 twice I bought when I worked at the mall at age 14. For d100 I add a darker purple d20 (with the + mark on half the numbers).

I still have that set I got in 1979. The d20 is damn near round from probably millions of rolls and thousands of floor impacts. About 20% of the d4 (one point) is just gone. The other three held up better, but they still look rough.

[Psyren]

*gets off both your lawns*

d10 is definitely regular, every basic dice set and 3D dicerolling app I've ever seen includes one. If nothing else, two of them are useful as percentile dice if you don't have any of those.

[Arkhios]

I'm young enough to believe you on "recent" sets, but I've been playing D&D for about 16-17 years and my first set included a d10.

On the other hand, I have run into a d3 only once in my life I believe. So I can sympathise with the reason behind the proposition - "If you're not manufacturing it, don't make us use it."

Same here. I've bought new sets every one or two years during the 17-ish year span, and ALL of them included 7 dice: a d4, a d6, a d8, two d10's (one of which numbered the 'tens'), a d12, and a d20, but not a single d3. Ever.

I've seen plenty of manufactured d2's and d3's of course, and IIRC, one d7 as well, but all were from some curiosity start-ups, and far from being standardized in their shapes.

Grognards refusing to acknowledge their favorite game has evolved even during a time period they didn't play the game themselves should learn to grow up and evolve, not stagnate themselves in a bygone age.

I mean, even according to my, arguably limited, experience a manufactured ten sided die has been around at least for 17 years, quite likely longer. d10's have been part of the regular sets for at least 20 years, maybe longer.
In 46 years, still NO official d3's have ever been manufactured or sold as part of regular dice sets to be used with Dungeons & Dragons. Deal with it.

That said, my apologies for siderailing the thread. For my part, I'm done with this off-topic.

[H_H_F_F]

I got married in 1990, which was like 6 years ago unless I stop and count.

My first D&D purchase was during the TSR die shortage (1979), so it came with paper chits in the box, plus a coupon for dice. Local store threw in a set though (of 5 dice, all different colors), so we never actually used the chits. And then the 2nd set came in from TSR. Nobody had TWO sets of dice!

My first game was prior to that, all using the DMs dice. The DM's schnauzer ate the d12, so we rolled a d6 and a modifier d6 (high you added 6 to the first roll) to get the flat 1-12 distribution after that.

In the 80s we bought individual dice at the gaming store, never sets, so while the d10 (and the d30) appeared sometime around then as novelties, nobody had one. The colors didn't match, and a d20 worked fine, and that $1.25 was a third of the cost of a good cast figurine for your new character. Around then is when d20s actually numbered 1-20 started showing up, instead of coloring one of two 1-10 sequences with a different crayon, or squinting to distinguish between "9" and "+9"

From 1997 to 2010 I didn't play at all (MMORPGs instead). Then I got invited to a game in 2010 and couldn't find my stuff, so I grabbed a couple sets - which did include a d10 and a tens d10. Once I found my old stash (and threw away that box set with the chits still in the sheets, a pile of every Dragon magazine from 52-140ish and a smattering of earlier ones, plus basically every first edition module, and probably 10 other game systems like Boot Hill - all destroyed to an undetected water leak over the boxes) , the new dice got dumped in the "loan to guests" bag, not my primary. Probably mainly because they are tumbled, and I don't like tumbled dice, I like sharp corners and the near-undetectable blemish where I carefully trimmed the sprue off myself.

My primary d10 is a purple d20 numbered 1-10 twice I bought when I worked at the mall at age 14. For d100 I add a darker purple d20 (with the + mark on half the numbers).

I still have that set I got in 1979. The d20 is damn near round from probably millions of rolls and thousands of floor impacts. About 20% of the d4 (one point) is just gone. The other three held up better, but they still look rough.

That was actually a very interesting read on D&D history. Thanks!

[Elkad]

Well thanks.

Of course we've completely derailed this thread.

Think I'll find a white crayon and re-fill the numbers on some of my dice, got 8 players coming over for game this weekend.

[AnimeTheCat]

OP:

I get that you want to play a core-only Dwarven Monk. I dig it. My question is, what do you want to do with your Dwarven Monk? Are you planning to deal damage? Perhaps you're planning to be a lock-down build? What's the plan here? Monk has lots of options that it can do, but it can really only dig in to one of those options effectively, or it can be not-so-great at some of them. So it's best to pick what you want your monk to do, and then build it from there.

If you want to deal damage, I would suggest having a minimum of 14 strength (ideally 18) and two-handing a quarterstaff and using Power Attack. You'll need ample Dexterity and Wisdom to keep yourself safe in combat though, and Constitution to give you any amount of staying power (though I'm not sold that Con is the most important in terms of HP, +1 HP/lvl for every two points is a steep investment). That means you're probably dumping Charisma, and you're not going to have a "good" int.

If you want to harass the enemy with special attacks, I would suggest you take Stunning Fist, keep your Strength at 10, get your Wisdom as high as possible, get your Dexterity as high as possible, take weapon finesse (you just need to hit), and Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) to get that DC up. Bonuses here include that you can reasonably get more Skill Points, and if you're succeeding in keeping that DC high, you're less likely to get hit, which means you may survive with a slightly lower Constitution. You still have no need for charisma though.

If you want to lean in to the skill points, I would suggest picking up stunning fist again, and keep that Wisdom high, but lower your dexterity, increase your Int a bit more, and possibly still pick up Weapon Finesse (as your strength is still probably 10). Just lean in to those skill points more and understand that combat won't be your thing (not necessarily bad, but something to keep in mind).

What weaknesses you have and how you perform depends entirely on what you choose to do, and how heavily you lean in to that specific thing. In fact, having Reduce Person cast on you (or having it in a potion for yourself) works very well with the stunning fist route. Improves to hit and AC, but doesn't reduce your effectiveness at your bit. For Enlarge Person, that plays well in to damage and tripping (increased strength and reach) but will make you, quite literally, a bigger target. So keep that in mind that you're not as survivable as an armored fighter or Barbarian (inevitably less AC and HP).