Ring of the Darkhidden in CotSQ

[Gorthawar]

I'm slowly preparing my party to run through the City of the Spider Queen and am considering to drop a ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) for the main scout.

However, I am a little concerned about the effect this item could have on the campaign if this item was allowed to exist more than once. In the darkness of the underdark it would give the party invisibility at all times as long as they have darkvision themselves and don't use light.

As such they would be countering one of the advantages, the 120ft darkvision, that makes the Drow so dangerous below ground. Even more so at the levels that the Drow NPCs are and the amount of money they have available wouldn't most of them wear the same rings? How do you handle items like that in your campaign?

A similar example for me have been the steadfast boots which have allowed the cleric in my group a fair few readied attacks against charging orcs in the Son's of Gruumsh which we've finished earlier. It seems like an item that most adventurers / NPCs that are wielding a two-handed weapon should acquire.

Any thoughts? Thanks a lot!

[Crake]

just make the ring a unique item, and don't allow the PCs to to reverse engineer it's effect, making it more akin to a very niche artifact or a relic, than a magical item.

[Doctor Despair]

just make the ring a unique item, and don't allow the PCs to to reverse engineer it's effect, making it more akin to a very niche artifact or a relic, than a magical item.

If you're particularly worried about the long-term balance, you could make it a unique item with fixed charges. If that feels too strange, you could make it have set charges per user so that it makes more sense in-universe why it has any charges left at all.

[Crake]

If you're particularly worried about the long-term balance, you could make it a unique item with fixed charges. If that feels too strange, you could make it have set charges per user so that it makes more sense in-universe why it has any charges left at all.

Or just make it have a daily timed use, like 10 minutes per day, separated into 1 minute chunks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't overestimate.

Being unseen is only one aspect of going undetected. The ring doesn't make them silent and it doesn't mask their scent from giant lizards. Drow can produce light as easily as any other intelligent race if they need it and a -lot- of underdark encounters are gonna start tighter than 120 ft regardless of either party's visual range.

Then there's the issue of not being able to see each other. If they're not making enough noise to be detected by enemies, they're not making enough to track each other either and separating them would be trivial.

If you're really that worried about it though, just say no. "Yes, and..." is usually better but sometimes a good GM does indeed need to wield a good old-fashioned "no."

[Segev]

Give them potions of darkhiding. Now you control how many they have.

[Reprimand]

The thing about this is that the invisibility only applies when the creature is using darkvision to detect them. In normal lighting or shadowy illumination the ring is useless. If any drow escapes from the party and are aware that a creature was undetectable by his normal darkvision some more powerful npcs might be aware what that item could be and of counters to this item. Any Drow Matron worth her salt would be clammering to gather information on this as quickly as possible.

Example: A Drow ranger hearing something being unable to detect it visually remember his matron's warning that some trespassers in the underdark have been using some means of remaining undetected to darkvision. The drow produces a sunrod from it's bag strikes it and throws it where it heard the noise. The revealed scout shrugs and smiles running back into the darkness and out of the shadow.

There are also plenty of threats the underdark can throw at a party that can circumvent this, a bulette for example would make your party think twice about even relying solely on a ring like this.

My entire party entered play with rings of the darkhidden in vault of Larin Karr. And while it was useful for getting the drop on people a troll that gets lucky on concealment and hits both claw attacks uh well it's bad for your spine. The DM was quite good about it really but obviously the more well known the exploits of your group are the more easily their enemies might adapt to their tactics. Obviously keeping track of light sources kind of increases the slog that is combat sometimes but I really enjoyed that game a lot.

I think you'd be surprised at how much mundane counterplay to this item you can find. The whole party could have them and quite honestly they'd still be in for a beating.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Drow get Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire as SLA's. They also have a bonus on spot and listen checks.

If your scout isn't already near-undetectable to his enemies the ring won't make him.
For scouting it's worth about as much as casting Invisibility normally. Probably less, seeing how it's countered by any light source, which enemies may use even if they don't suspect a hidden character being near. Even races with darkvision use lights.

Its main benefit is similar to Greater Invisibility in that he can stay invisible while attacking, but seeing as you're fighting drow pretty much any of them can disable it with a standard action.
If that's still too powerful you can just give some of them Quicken SLA as a feat, but at that point i probably wouldn't even bother wearing it as a player and just sell it at the next opportunity.

If anything i'd be worried about the ring not being worth keeping, considering the enemies you're fighting are almost perfectly set up to counter it.
The only way it could be worse was if all drow had blindsight.

As for the Steadfast Boots i really don't see the problem. Charging is the singularly most effective melee tactic in the game and even the dumbest orc should realize not to charge that character after his friends get hit, so at best it's 1-2 free attacks per combat. If that breaks your game i don't think the issue is with the boots, really, it's with your encounters being one-trick ponies.

Magic items are supposed to be useful. If you're never going to let your PCs actually get the benefits just stick to simple number boosts instead, otherwise they'll just end up feeling cheated.

[Troacctid]

Drow get Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire as SLA's. They also have a bonus on spot and listen checks.
And don't forget darkness, which is often part of their standard combat tactics already.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And don't forget darkness, which is often part of their standard combat tactics already.Darkness doesn't create actual darkness. It creates dim light that negates any light that's already there. If you cast it in absolute blackness, it still allows you to see.

The no light cantrip is what creates absolute blackness. Which, by the way, is the best spell to compliment the ring of the darkhidden. Along with Invisible Spell + permanencied fog cloud or similar. Doesn't prevent magical light sources, but it does prevent true seeing and see invisibility.

The psionic power control light (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlLight.htm#) should do the same as no light, while also negating light and faerie fire, since it is not negated by other [light] effects (being one itself); [light] effects only negate [darkness] effects, so other [light] effects shouldn't affect it at all. It does require constant concentration, however.

[Troacctid]

Darkness doesn't create actual darkness. It creates dim light that negates any light that's already there. If you cast it in absolute blackness, it still allows you to see.
Exactly. It's another way to shut down the ring.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Exactly. It's another way to shut down the ring.Darkness couldn't dispel control light due to psi-like abilities only being dispellable via dispel psionics (see below (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#specialAbilities)) which darkness isn't, and it couldn't suppress or counter it, since powers can't be counterspelled.


Psi-like abilities are subject to power resistance and to being dispelled by dispel psionics.

[Cygnia]

Scout didn't pick up the Darkstalker feat?

[sleepyphoenixx]

If we're talking about ways to take advantage of a RotD my favorite option is the Darklight (SoS, 500gp).
For its price it offers an amazing amount of utility. It doesn't deal with light spells though iirc.


Darkness couldn't dispel control light due to psi-like abilities only being dispellable via dispel psionics (see below (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#specialAbilities)) which darkness isn't, and it couldn't suppress or counter it, since powers can't be counterspelled.

Iirc psionics-magic transparency is the assumed default.


Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

You are right that it can't be countered, but i see no reason why a higher level darkness spell wouldn't suppress it.

[Gorthawar]

Thanks for all the advice guys!


just make the ring a unique item, and don't allow the PCs to to reverse engineer it's effect, making it more akin to a very niche artifact or a relic, than a magical item.

Thanks, that's an easy solution that I might consider for a number of items. Makes the loot more interesting if you can't get everything at magic mart.


Don't overestimate.

Being unseen is only one aspect of going undetected. The ring doesn't make them silent and it doesn't mask their scent from giant lizards. Drow can produce light as easily as any other intelligent race if they need it and a -lot- of underdark encounters are gonna start tighter than 120 ft regardless of either party's visual range.

Then there's the issue of not being able to see each other. If they're not making enough noise to be detected by enemies, they're not making enough to track each other either and separating them would be trivial.

If you're really that worried about it though, just say no. "Yes, and..." is usually better but sometimes a good GM does indeed need to wield a good old-fashioned "no."

I'm not worried about the single ring at all. More about the whole party having access and if they do why shouldn't all the Drow have as well. Which would kinda take the dark out of underdark because to see others you'd have to run around with some sort of light.


The thing about this is that the invisibility only applies when the creature is using darkvision to detect them. In normal lighting or shadowy illumination the ring is useless. If any drow escapes from the party and are aware that a creature was undetectable by his normal darkvision some more powerful npcs might be aware what that item could be and of counters to this item. Any Drow Matron worth her salt would be clammering to gather information on this as quickly as possible.

There are also plenty of threats the underdark can throw at a party that can circumvent this, a bulette for example would make your party think twice about even relying solely on a ring like this.

I think you'd be surprised at how much mundane counterplay to this item you can find. The whole party could have them and quite honestly they'd still be in for a beating.


Drow get Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire as SLA's. They also have a bonus on spot and listen checks.

If your scout isn't already near-undetectable to his enemies the ring won't make him.
For scouting it's worth about as much as casting Invisibility normally. Probably less, seeing how it's countered by any light source, which enemies may use even if they don't suspect a hidden character being near. Even races with darkvision use lights.

As for the Steadfast Boots i really don't see the problem. Charging is the singularly most effective melee tactic in the game and even the dumbest orc should realize not to charge that character after his friends get hit, so at best it's 1-2 free attacks per combat. If that breaks your game i don't think the issue is with the boots, really, it's with your encounters being one-trick ponies.

Magic items are supposed to be useful. If you're never going to let your PCs actually get the benefits just stick to simple number boosts instead, otherwise they'll just end up feeling cheated.

Good points about the various counter and I suppose another reason the Drow are feared as much is their cunning. They will figure it out. The steadfast boots are just another example of an item that is really good value for money. Not game breaking if you only have one or two pair around but if anyone wielding a two-handed weapon would get it it would have a considerable effect on the game.


Scout didn't pick up the Darkstalker feat?

Oh yes he did pick that one as well. It does different things though. The combination will make him very difficult to spot which is the whole idea.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If we're talking about ways to take advantage of a RotD my favorite option is the Darklight (SoS, 500gp).
For its price it offers an amazing amount of utility. It doesn't deal with light spells though iirc.

Iirc psionics-magic transparency is the assumed default.

You are right that it can't be countered, but i see no reason why a higher level darkness spell wouldn't suppress it.While that might be the case, who would think to use a [darkness] effect on an area where all light has been suppressed?

[Troacctid]

While that might be the case, who would think to use a [darkness] effect on an area where all light has been suppressed?
Someone whose opponent has darkvision, I imagine.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not worried about the single ring at all. More about the whole party having access and if they do why shouldn't all the Drow have as well. Which would kinda take the dark out of underdark because to see others you'd have to run around with some sort of light.

Like I said, the scout with darkstalker is the only one that will approach undetectable. The rest of the party are clomping about unable to see each other and easily detected by any drow stalker worthy of not being sacrificed to Lloth and his pet lizard.

Once detected, they're subject to being tagged in all the ways any other invisible foe is; splash around fine powder (flour for example), make the listen check to pin-point, sweep the space in front of you with a free hand then try to grapple when you detect them, and Drow have dancing lights and faerie fire as SLAs to reveal them and paint the target.

The reason drow don't use the ring is because it breeds carelessness. The wearers get the idea they're undetectable when they're anything but and they're trivially easy to get around. The complication of not being able to see your allies isn't trivial either since it -necessitates- verbal communication that's near constant; making it way easier to detect your party without line of sight even being necessary whether you're visible or not. Compound that with the cost and the risk of lighted skirmishes drawing less civilized underdark dangers and you'd have to be just about a fool to rely on such things.

If I were in your group and we all had a ring, I wouldn't even put the thing on before we expected or entered an encounter and wouldn't wear it at all if that encounter involves drow. I'd advise everyone but the scout to do the same. You're -way- overestimating their value here.

[sleepyphoenixx]

While that might be the case, who would think to use a [darkness] effect on an area where all light has been suppressed?

Anyone who makes a psicraft check probably. :smalltongue:
Or anyone who realizes that your enemy having concealment beats him having total concealment.
Or in this case anyone who gets it as a racial SLA and tends to integrate it into their fighting style.

Do keep in mind that psionics are hardly unknown in the Underdark. It's not like you're busting out a trick no one has ever seen before.

[Crake]

since it -necessitates- verbal communication

Or telepathic.

[Gorthawar]

Like I said, the scout with darkstalker is the only one that will approach undetectable. The rest of the party are clomping about unable to see each other and easily detected by any drow stalker worthy of not being sacrificed to Lloth and his pet lizard.

Once detected, they're subject to being tagged in all the ways any other invisible foe is; splash around fine powder (flour for example), make the listen check to pin-point, sweep the space in front of you with a free hand then try to grapple when you detect them, and Drow have dancing lights and faerie fire as SLAs to reveal them and paint the target.

The reason drow don't use the ring is because it breeds carelessness. The wearers get the idea they're undetectable when they're anything but and they're trivially easy to get around. The complication of not being able to see your allies isn't trivial either since it -necessitates- verbal communication that's near constant; making it way easier to detect your party without line of sight even being necessary whether you're visible or not. Compound that with the cost and the risk of lighted skirmishes drawing less civilized underdark dangers and you'd have to be just about a fool to rely on such things.

If I were in your group and we all had a ring, I wouldn't even put the thing on before we expected or entered an encounter and wouldn't wear it at all if that encounter involves drow. I'd advise everyone but the scout to do the same. You're -way- overestimating their value here.

More good points. I guess I will just drop one of the rings without any restrictions in place and see where it goes. You never know what the players are end up doing anyways :). Thanks for the advice again.

[Anthrowhale]

Note that as far as range of darkvision goes, there is a "Superior Darkvision" spell in Unapproachable East which provides unbounded range darkvision for hours/day as a level 4 sorcerer/wizard spell.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Or telepathic.
I suppose Fell Conspiracy would be a fitting feat for anyone regularly engaging in ambushes and guerilla warfare, but especially so for a party of drow skirmishers.
The other benefits are also quite nice for the playstyle.

Add the Binder feats on top to get Malphas Bird's Eye Viewing and you'd have one nasty scout/ambush leader.

For other ways to help a whole party sneak around there's also the Infiltration Teamwork Benefit (DMG2) and a Lens Companion Spirit, both of which have the advantage of costing very little in the way of build resources.

They also can't be looted, which is always a consideration when you're building NPCs. :smallbiggrin: