Low level abuse of Hex

[PattThe]

I had a player multi-class into warlock from monk and their use of Hex surprised me! Four attacks coming off a 20 dex and an extra d6 on each of those over multiple rounds was just nuts. It doesn't have a once-per-turn limit to that d6 damage.

Say you began as a variant human with Hex from warlock (no charisma investment needed, no save). How would you best abuse Hex damage before level four? Is there a better choice than monk for dealing crazy d6's round after round? Would archery fighter be better to abuse the accuracy bonus? Share thoughts on breaking hex.

[Blood of Gaea]

I think the biggest issue to run into is that you need a combat lasting several rounds against one main tough enemy. Burning your first turn on casting Hex is pretty expensive when it costs you 1-2 unarmed attacks. So basically, just make sure you use your one cast a day on a enemy that seems like it'll have a hefty HP pool.

[kazaryu]

I think the biggest issue to run into is that you need a combat lasting several rounds against one main tough enemy. Burning your first turn on casting Hex is pretty expensive when it costs you 1-2 unarmed attacks. So basically, just make sure you use your one cast a day on a enemy that seems like it'll have a hefty HP pool.

fortunately hex has a 1hr duration, which somewhat mitigates that problem. meaning that some combats you'll get a chance to precast it.

other than that, as far as breaking it: often overlooked is hex guaranteed, free disadvantage on ability checks. which can be really useful in all sorts of non combat situations, especially al lower levels when the randomness of the d20 has the largest impact on opposed checks. most of the time you're gonna wanna hex vs wisdom for non combat since it governs both insight and perception.

for this aspect, rogues are probably the best choice for abuse of it since they tend to be the ones making opposed skill checks out of combat.

[Toadkiller]

It’s a... fine spell. As you have found if you have lots of attacks it can add up. But it is concentration so melee focused characters risk losing it. Those with more of a casting focus likely have better things to cast. Even playing a EB warlock I stopped using it so much by level 5 or so.

[Blood of Gaea]

fortunately hex has a 1hr duration, which somewhat mitigates that problem. meaning that some combats you'll get a chance to precast it.

other than that, as far as breaking it: often overlooked is hex guaranteed, free disadvantage on ability checks. which can be really useful in all sorts of non combat situations, especially al lower levels when the randomness of the d20 has the largest impact on opposed checks. most of the time you're gonna wanna hex vs wisdom for non combat since it governs both insight and perception.

for this aspect, rogues are probably the best choice for abuse of it since they tend to be the ones making opposed skill checks out of combat.
It's definitly possible to see it used in multiple combats, but you will still need to use your bonus action to apply hex.

[kazaryu]

It's definitly possible to see it used in multiple combats, but you will still need to use your bonus action to apply hex.

oh i was more referring to precasting it, as in before initiative is rolled. obviously casting it and applying it once initiative happens is the same in terms of action economy.

[elyktsorb]

I had a player multi-class into warlock from monk and their use of Hex surprised me! Four attacks coming off a 20 dex and an extra d6 on each of those over multiple rounds was just nuts. It doesn't have a once-per-turn limit to that d6 damage.

Say you began as a variant human with Hex from warlock (no charisma investment needed, no save). How would you best abuse Hex damage before level four? Is there a better choice than monk for dealing crazy d6's round after round? Would archery fighter be better to abuse the accuracy bonus? Share thoughts on breaking hex.

I'm now going to be considering this spell for my Spore Druid/Monk Multiclass if I can get it in a reasonable way since I would love more additional damage on all my attacks.

[Eldariel]

Moon Druid is probably the best Hex-user in the game on low levels. 4 attacks as a Deinonychus for instance if your Pounce succeeds (3 if it doesn't) and a prone enemy for advantage on the attacks. If you pick a form that has Restraint, you can further abuse the ability check penalty to make it hard for enemy to break free (Giant Octopus, Giant Constrictor Snake, etc.). Vuman Moon Druid going Magic Initiate for Hex isn't bad (though I'd rather use that feat on e.g. Mobile or Magic Initiate for Wizard spells or Res: Con for Con-saves or whatever since they scale better). Of course, the primary issue is that it doesn't really pan out in the long run since as a caster, the class gets actually useful Concentration spells later on and Hex's relatively minor damage boost falls off hard.

[Lunali]

oh i was more referring to precasting it, as in before initiative is rolled. obviously casting it and applying it once initiative happens is the same in terms of action economy.

I have yet to encounter a situation where initiative has not been rolled and declaring a spell cast wouldn't cause initiative to be rolled. Now if you used it on something, killed it, then got into a social situation, you might be able to move the hex without starting initiative.

As for the question, it's hard to get more than 2 attacks at level 4 or below. Monk can get 3 by spending ki, but that's about the best you can do. Both gloom stalker and hunter subclasses of ranger have options that let you push that limit, but then you wouldn't need hex as you'd have hunter's mark.

[elyktsorb]

I have yet to encounter a situation where initiative has not been rolled and declaring a spell cast wouldn't cause initiative to be rolled. Now if you used it on something, killed it, then got into a social situation, you might be able to move the hex without starting initiative.

As for the question, it's hard to get more than 2 attacks at level 4 or below. Monk can get 3 by spending ki, but that's about the best you can do. Both gloom stalker and hunter subclasses of ranger have options that let you push that limit, but then you wouldn't need hex as you'd have hunter's mark.

I'd argue for having both Hex and Hunters Mark, but those tend to get in the way of each other.

[kazaryu]

I have yet to encounter a situation where initiative has not been rolled and declaring a spell cast wouldn't cause initiative to be rolled. Now if you used it on something, killed it, then got into a social situation, you might be able to move the hex without starting initiative.

As for the question, it's hard to get more than 2 attacks at level 4 or below. Monk can get 3 by spending ki, but that's about the best you can do. Both gloom stalker and hunter subclasses of ranger have options that let you push that limit, but then you wouldn't need hex as you'd have hunter's mark.

thats assuming that most people use roll initiative exactly when the rules say you're supposed to which hasn't been my expeience. while spell casting does tend to lead to initiative, particularly in tense situations. it tends to happen after the spell cast resolves (again, in my experience). but thats obviously gonna be table to table. but yeah, i mean the fact that its potentially precastable is obviously always going to be a niche benefit, it exists but is hardly universal. the meat of my post was more about the out of combat abuses since people had combat use pretty well tied up.

[PattThe]

Super stoked to see the activity but something just came to mind with the hour duration..

Imagine an army laying siege to a walled fortress, and many of the archers have Hex. With dozens if not over a couple hundred enemies beneath your position you could keep moving hex onto other targets for that whole hour with a good active siege meat-grinder. There's a point there with enough base damage that adding a minimum of one more point of damage could in some cases transform your defensive archers from spending two attacks on average to slay an opponent to one attack needed. Say, 1 on weapon die, +4 mod, 1 on hex. 6 damage versus 5 over an hour could mean twice the number of goblins killed per turn by these hex-archers. Where you have near infinite enemies and defense from con saves, hex really shows.
Nooow to read all your wonderful comments.


oh i was more referring to precasting it, as in before initiative is rolled. obviously casting it and applying it once initiative happens is the same in terms of action economy.
^Also this was assumed by me. Always cast long duration spells before combat if you can!!


I'm now going to be considering this spell for my Spore Druid/Monk Multiclass if I can get it in a reasonable way since I would love more additional damage on all my attacks.
Hex is only on attack rolls. I got hype but I think spore druid's damage procs aren't attack oriented.


Moon Druid is probably the best Hex-user in the game on low levels. 4 attacks as a Deinonychus for instance if your Pounce succeeds (3 if it doesn't) and a prone enemy for advantage on the attacks. If you pick a form that has Restraint, you can further abuse the ability check penalty to make it hard for enemy to break free (Giant Octopus, Giant Constrictor Snake, etc.). Vuman Moon Druid going Magic Initiate for Hex isn't bad (though I'd rather use that feat on e.g. Mobile or Magic Initiate for Wizard spells or Res: Con for Con-saves or whatever since they scale better). Of course, the primary issue is that it doesn't really pan out in the long run since as a caster, the class gets actually useful Concentration spells later on and Hex's relatively minor damage boost falls off hard.
Moon Druid is actually slower to abuse this in a heated scenario than any other druid. Bonus action hex action wild shape is pretty smooth, but with a Moon Druid below level 18 you'd have to bonus action hex and then wait a turn to bonus action wild shape, where you could then action attack. Is there a good druid Action spell that would suit that rollout? Also what wild shape has the best con bonus..

Also by the way in terms of Warlock cantrips that don't rely on stats (avoiding needing charisma for these builds) your options are craaaap for Arcane Initiate. Presdigitation and minor illusion don't help you much. Even create bonfire, a utility spell with combat dual-purpose, feels bad. Imagine the chaos a party could get up with with a Rod of Hexes and seven charges...


I have yet to encounter a situation where initiative has not been rolled and declaring a spell cast wouldn't cause initiative to be rolled. Now if you used it on something, killed it, then got into a social situation, you might be able to move the hex without starting initiative.
Cast it EARLIER! EARLIER I say! Scout ahead, get eyes on the creature, cast, then run away and regroup to attack within the hour. No save, so the creature won't know exactly what's going on. Honestly, you could troll people in town by hexing their ability score checks doing their daily chores. Make everything thing there's curses flying about. Sneak into camp and hex the Hobgoblin leader during a speech to tank their charisma and sow confusion, then double down by having extra damage on them when you attack half an hour later. Imagine going out scouting with a second party member who has Hunter's Mark and you both mark the Big Bad at the enemy camp. Track them and wait until they head out to poop. Unload surprise attacks with an extra 2d6 and good chance for crits and some level twos could take out what would otherwise be an all-hands-on-deck monster in no time at all without risking a full fray. Or hex their wisdom to make sneaking up on them easier. Or for kidnapping, hex their strength and go straight in for a grapple. Drop a silence on there and you have some serious 3rd level tactics on your hand.

[elyktsorb]

Hex is only on attack rolls. I got hype but I think spore druid's damage procs aren't attack oriented.


No Spore Druid's additional Poison Damage is attack based. So if Hex was on the creature that would be an additional d6 of necrotic and a d6 of poison. Spore druid's necrotic damage reaction isn't attack based though. So you know, get Monk and then you've got an additional 2d6 per attack. And the good part about this is Symbiotic Entity has a 10 minute lasting period and can be activated out of combat with no downsides because your spores are invisible and harmless until you command them.

[Eldariel]

Moon Druid is actually slower to abuse this in a heated scenario than any other druid. Bonus action hex action wild shape is pretty smooth, but with a Moon Druid below level 18 you'd have to bonus action hex and then wait a turn to bonus action wild shape, where you could then action attack. Is there a good druid Action spell that would suit that rollout? Also what wild shape has the best con bonus..

Also by the way in terms of Warlock cantrips that don't rely on stats (avoiding needing charisma for these builds) your options are craaaap for Arcane Initiate. Presdigitation and minor illusion don't help you much. Even create bonfire, a utility spell with combat dual-purpose, feels bad. Imagine the chaos a party could get up with with a Rod of Hexes and seven charges...

There's nothing preventing you from moving Hex from an enemy to an enemy while Wildshaped. If you're already wildshaped while in combat and have Hex active (both last an hour so this is totally reasonable), you can thus take the bonus action to move the Hex to a new target and tear them a new one ;)

Minor Illusion is also great for anyone. Probably the best cantrip in the game (no-save block of LoS, concealment, etc. before even getting into the non-combat uses; remember that they need to take an action to even get a check unless they actually interact with the illusion). Of course you can't use it in beast shape but that isn't so big if you are a beast for combat mostly.

[cutlery]

oh i was more referring to precasting it, as in before initiative is rolled. obviously casting it and applying it once initiative happens is the same in terms of action economy.

Lots of spells grow in power if you let the PCs precast them - Armor of Agathys is another.

[Keravath]

I had a player multi-class into warlock from monk and their use of Hex surprised me! Four attacks coming off a 20 dex and an extra d6 on each of those over multiple rounds was just nuts. It doesn't have a once-per-turn limit to that d6 damage.

Say you began as a variant human with Hex from warlock (no charisma investment needed, no save). How would you best abuse Hex damage before level four? Is there a better choice than monk for dealing crazy d6's round after round? Would archery fighter be better to abuse the accuracy bonus? Share thoughts on breaking hex.

Your description is a bit unusual. I've never found much of an issue with hex. It does increase damage and is more effective the more attacks you have. A level 17 warlock could use it with agonizing blast for 4 bolts/turn. A level 17 sorcerer/warlock can cast agonizing blast +quickened agonizing blast with hex for 8 bolts/turn. 6 bolts/turn at level 11+. An action surging fighter at level 11 would have up to 7 attacks in the first round (depending on what they use their bonus action for) ... but when using hex, it tends to use up bonus actions every round or every second round since players tend to focus attacks and creatures can go down quite quickly.

The case you describe of a monk with 20 dex, 4 attacks and having hex on every one only happens at level 5+ (extra attack+flurry of blows for 4 attacks), attacking a creature with a lot of hit points, expending ki every round for flurry of blows, and not using their bonus action for anything else like dodge or shadow step or dash.

When a creature goes down, it takes the bonus action to move hex to a new target so on that turn the level 5+ monk only has two attacks.

Is it useful? Absolutely due to the large number of attacks a monk has ... however, the spell divine favour which adds a d4 damage to every attack and only requires 1 bonus action to cast, can be a better choice since it adds damage and doesn't prevent the monk from using 4 attacks in each subsequent turn.

Here is some math ... 4d6 of damage averages 14 ... 2d6 more makes 21 total. Two attacks as a bonus action using flurry of blows and assuming a d6 damage die and 20 dex is 17 damage. So as soon as you have to move hex every other round to a new target, hex is only doing 4 more damage than just taking 4 attacks with flurry of blows since you lose 2 attacks every second round. In addition, the monk STARTS off down a possible 17 extra damage because they have to use the first round bonus action to cast hex in the first place. This means it takes 4 rounds of combat to just catch up to where the monk could have been in potential damage if they didn't cast hex and have to move it every second round of combat.

Even using divine favor takes until round 3 of combat to start doing MORE damage than just using your bonus action to attack in round 1.

Yes. These damage boosting spells can be good for longer combats against creatures with lots of hit points where you don't need to move hex too often but the lost attacks due to the bonus action economy can easily result in a monk casting hex and doing less damage if hex is moved more often than every second round or you use some of your bonus actions for something else. If you can move hex no more often than every 3 rounds it will do more damage over the longer term. In addition, if you are not using ki for flurry of blows or if you are sometimes using your bonus action for something other than attacking the math gets worse and hex is less useful.

TL;DR Due to impact on the bonus action economy, hex is less effective at increasing damage for a monk than it might first appear.

[Lunali]

Cast it EARLIER! EARLIER I say! Scout ahead, get eyes on the creature, cast, then run away and regroup to attack within the hour. No save, so the creature won't know exactly what's going on. Honestly, you could troll people in town by hexing their ability score checks doing their daily chores. Make everything thing there's curses flying about. Sneak into camp and hex the Hobgoblin leader during a speech to tank their charisma and sow confusion, then double down by having extra damage on them when you attack half an hour later. Imagine going out scouting with a second party member who has Hunter's Mark and you both mark the Big Bad at the enemy camp. Track them and wait until they head out to poop. Unload surprise attacks with an extra 2d6 and good chance for crits and some level twos could take out what would otherwise be an all-hands-on-deck monster in no time at all without risking a full fray. Or hex their wisdom to make sneaking up on them easier. Or for kidnapping, hex their strength and go straight in for a grapple. Drop a silence on there and you have some serious 3rd level tactics on your hand.

Except that you have to be moving it to the target (or using subtle spell) to get away with that, if you're casting it, someone will notice. (your DM may vary)

[PattThe]

BA move the hex while wildshaped is very cool, never thought of that! Also, the hex move can be on the subsequent turn. It's true that monk isn't the best choice for long-term. The story from my game involved a monk-warlock who had turned from the party and they dueled off against the party's other warlock. The full warlock and a shadow demon summons were evenly matched against this flailing fury of kobold hex-boosted assault. So the idea sprung from explicitly an all-or-nothing scene where blowing all your resources was necessary.

[Kemev]

Hex is pretty handy if you're playing an athletic character. Bonus action Hex to give the target disadvantage on Str or Dex, then action to shove/grapple them.

[PattThe]

Hex is pretty handy if you're playing an athletic character. Bonus action Hex to give the target disadvantage on Str or Dex, then action to shove/grapple them.

Yeah! I was saying earlier if you combine it with a stealthy Ranger and perhaps access to Silence you can accomplish incredible kidnappings at surprisingly low levels when someone isn't in a stronghold.

[greenstone]

But it is concentration…

Good point. A caster with hex up is not using detect magic or cause fear or invisibility or shadow blade or hunger of hadar, etc. They are also not readying any spells or casting anything with a casting time longer than 1 action.

Concentration is a great balancing game machanic.

[CheddarChampion]

Sounds like this is a case of high rolled stats. Low levels + 20 Dex + at least 13 Cha and 13 Wis (for multiclassing requirements) on a monk?

As others have pointed out, action economy + concentration + few spell slots prevent this from being great.
Unless the game is structured in an unusual way, like one short rest after every fight.

[Blood of Gaea]

Sounds like this is a case of high rolled stats. Low levels + 20 Dex + at least 13 Cha and 13 Wis (for multiclassing requirements) on a monk?

As others have pointed out, action economy + concentration + few spell slots prevent this from being great.
Unless the game is structured in an unusual way, like one short rest after every fight.
Another potential option deviating from the OP would be either getting your dip from Ranger (and taking Hunter's Mark), or grabbing Magic Initiate with Variant Human.

I could easily see something like a Shadow Monk 5/Gloomstalker 3 working at least reasonably well. Gloomstalker even helps elevate the problem of spending your first bonus action in combat on Hunter's Mark instead of an attack or two.

[CheddarChampion]

I could easily see something like a Shadow Monk 5/Gloomstalker 3 working at least reasonably well. Gloomstalker even helps elevate the problem of spending your first bonus action in combat on Hunter's Mark instead of an attack or two.

Yes. I just meant to point out that OP's full description of this scenario requires:
#1 really high rolled stats and at least level 6 (extra attack + multiclassing) or
#2 at least level 9 with point buy or
#3 high rolled stats but low AC or low HP.

So I don't think it is as bad as OP suggests - high rolled stats are powerful already. At level 9 it would be strong but not "abuse" levels of powerful. IMO at least.

Even this ranger/monk build would need another level for 20 Dex.

[Blood of Gaea]

Yes. I just meant to point out that OP's full description of this scenario requires:
#1 really high rolled stats and at least level 6 (extra attack + multiclassing) or
#2 at least level 9 with point buy or
#3 high rolled stats but low AC or low HP.

So I don't think it is as bad as OP suggests - high rolled stats are powerful already. At level 9 it would be strong but not "abuse" levels of powerful. IMO at least.

Even this ranger/monk build would need another level for 20 Dex.
I totally agree, even with the more synergystic multiclass, you're at least paying with it by delaying your ASI by a level, and you're still down some Ki.

You can do decently well with Hex/Hunter's Mark, but it really shouldn't be able to break the game at all.

[Kane0]

Hex, much like Hunters mark, is all about how many attacks you can squeeze in. If we’re talking before Extra Attack comes online there’s a couple ways of getting more attacks:
- Fighter Action surge
- Monk Martial Arts/Flurry
- Hunter Ranger Horde Breaker or Gloomstalker Ambush
- Frenzy Barbarian
- TWF
- BA attack via Vuman feat (PAM, GWM, CBE, etc)
- Reaction attacks (Sentinel, Hunter Ranger Giant Killer)

[PattThe]

Hex, much like Hunters mark, is all about how many attacks you can squeeze in. If we’re talking before Extra Attack comes online there’s a couple ways of getting more attacks:
- Fighter Action surge
- Monk Martial Arts/Flurry
- Hunter Ranger Horde Breaker or Gloomstalker Ambush
- Frenzy Barbarian
- TWF
- BA attack via Vuman feat (PAM, GWM, CBE, etc)
- Reaction attacks (Sentinel, Hunter Ranger Giant Killer)
I did not consider feats for more attacks.. I have a player with an EK Fighter, Tunnel Fighter fighting style and Skill Trees points in towards sentinel styled powers, where she can technically get infinite AOO's. I'm just imagining if she had a hex-like power slapped on. Abusing hex outside of the turn order makes me... wonder about...
Giving legendary monsters hex. <o<

[Eldariel]

I did not consider feats for more attacks.. I have a player with an EK Fighter, Tunnel Fighter fighting style and Skill Trees points in towards sentinel styled powers, where she can technically get infinite AOO's. I'm just imagining if she had a hex-like power slapped on. Abusing hex outside of the turn order makes me... wonder about...
Giving legendary monsters hex. <o<

Or "legendary" PCs like Marilith Shapechange that starts with 7 attacks and has a free Reaction each TURN (not round) for AoOs. Of course, Shapechange does eat your Concentration.

[Demonslayer666]

Multiclassing is an optional rule. There are reasons for not allowing it.

I allow it in my game, but limit it to no warlock dips, and no sorcadins. Too cheesy.

[VonKaiserstein]

Especially low level, Hex abuse is casting it on a chicken or goat once you enter a dungeon, or feel combat may occur within an hour. Throw the chicken through every door where an encounter may happen. If it dies, you're safe and can move hex to another creature as a bonus action next turn. It also keep you from being ambushed.

This strategy is good for an hour, after which your party may need a short rest, resetting your spell slots. Worst case scenario, your DM wises up to this, and you get to loot a dungeon for an hour of gametime with no encounters.

If you require backup like when your chicken is killed by a trap, keep some crickets in cages on your person, 'for luck', and squish the one you transfer the hex to. Very few dms will make you expend an entire action on swatting a cricket.

And of course once the chicken dies- you have dinner!

[Eldariel]

Multiclassing is an optional rule. There are reasons for not allowing it.

I allow it in my game, but limit it to no warlock dips, and no sorcadins. Too cheesy.

Magic Initiate does the same for 1 hour/day. Frankly, this isn't bad.

[Mikal]

Is this abuse? I mean warlocks pureclassed can do almost exactly the same thing except better using PAM, or a ranger with twf and hunters Mark/favored foe