persistent spell on duration concentration

[newguydude1]

Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level.

ok so duration concentration spells are legal to persist. the feat description doesnt make a special exception for detect spells. it doesnt say "you cant persist duration concentration spells except detect spells". it just describes what happens when you persist detect spells. so persisting concentration spells is totally legal.

so what happens when you persist other concentration spells? like animate weapon for example (made legal via ocular spell)
1. does the weapon stay animated for 24 hours without needing concentration?
2. does the weapon only animate when you concentrate on it and stop animating when you stop, but you can resume and stop over and over and over for 24 hours?
3. some other thing.

looking for a raw answer. my dm is raw or die.

[Biggus]

The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end. [...] you must concentrate to maintain the spell, but you can’t maintain it for more than a stated duration in any event.

Seems pretty clear from this that regardless of the maximum possible duration of the spell, as soon as you cease concentrating on it, the spell ends. Detect spells are called out as a specific exception to this when persisted, but as far as I can see the default rules still apply to all other concentration spells.

[newguydude1]

Seems pretty clear from this that regardless of the maximum possible duration of the spell, as soon as you cease concentrating on it, the spell ends. Detect spells are called out as a specific exception to this when persisted, but as far as I can see the default rules still apply to all other concentration spells.

its not duration:concentration anymore. its duration:24 hours.

[Venger]

Seems pretty clear from this that regardless of the maximum possible duration of the spell, as soon as you cease concentrating on it, the spell ends. Detect spells are called out as a specific exception to this when persisted, but as far as I can see the default rules still apply to all other concentration spells.

Yeah, this is the answer.

[Quertus]

Seems pretty clear from this that regardless of the maximum possible duration of the spell, as soon as you cease concentrating on it, the spell ends. Detect spells are called out as a specific exception to this when persisted, but as far as I can see the default rules still apply to all other concentration spells.


Yeah, this is the answer.

Citation needed.

There is nothing in the quoted text that says detection spells do not end when you cease concentrating on them.

Is there a quote somewhere that says that?

Otherwise, your statements do not hold water.

[Crake]

Citation needed.

There is nothing in the quoted text that says detection spells do not end when you cease concentrating on them.

Is there a quote somewhere that says that?

Otherwise, your statements do not hold water.

Uhh...

"You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells"

[sreservoir]

If you apply Persistent Spell to an otherwise eligible spell, its duration is no longer Concentration, but 24 hours. In general, it doesn't end when you stop concentrating on it, since it's not a spell with duration Concentration. Except for the exception for detect spells, the spell's effect doesn't change, so for a lot of Concentration-duration spells you still need to concentrate to get any effect out of it. It's unclear whether you can actually do this. One one hand, there's precedent for effects like this (that require you to concentrate to get an effect out of a spell with non-Concentration duration) in the form of call lightning (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm); however, that's an action the spell provides, whereas the usual specific action (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#concentratingtoMaintainaSpell) you would normally use to maintain a Concentration-duration spell is specifically for maintaining the spell, and there's no reason to expect you'd be able to do it for just any spell.

In the case of animate weapon, though, there's no such requirement so basically you can replace the duration line with "24 hours" and read the spell and it makes sense and should do what it says.

You can sidestep this whole mess by persisting sonorous hum (SpC 196), though, which, as a Personal-range spell with a 1 minute/level duration whose whole point is maintaining concentration on a Concentration duration spell, is pretty unambiguously persistable and hard to argue against doing what you want.

[Biggus]

its not duration:concentration anymore. its duration:24 hours.

OK, I can see that's one interpretation, but Persistent Spell doesn't say it replaces the duration with one of 24hrs.

I've checked the errata, the FAQ and the Rules Compendium for clarification and there isn't any, so I think you're out of luck for an official answer. I think you're going to have to ask your DM.

[ExLibrisMortis]

"Concentration" is added to a duration as a conditional. E.g. when you see "Concentration, up to 1 round/level", the spell has that duration if you spend an action each round concentrating. I don't think setting the duration to 24 hours overrides that conditional. So yes, it would last 24 hours, on the condition that you concentrate.

[Crake]

"Concentration" is added to a duration as a conditional. E.g. when you see "Concentration, up to 1 round/level", the spell has that duration if you spend an action each round concentrating. I don't think setting the duration to 24 hours overrides that conditional. So yes, it would last 24 hours, on the condition that you concentrate.

This is what I was thinking earlier, but that's not actually universally (or even mostly) true. Animate weapon, the spell in the OP, along with a lot of illusion spells like silent image or major image, are "Concentration + X rounds", so they simply last as long as you concentrate, plus a couple rounds afterwards.

[rrwoods]

It depends on what you interpret "has its duration increased to 24 hours" to mean. Personally, I take it to mean "the Duration line of the spell reads '24 hours or its original Duration, whichever is longer' ".

Further, the way the SRD presents information about duration presents Concentration alongside several other "kinds" of durations (including Timed Duration). It makes no mention of Concentration being a sort of duration rider; rather, it presents Concentration as a duration in and of itself. This is a *little* weird, given that Concentration often comes with a maximum timed duration, but (to me) it is evidence that Persistent Spell does completely replace the "Concentration" part of the Duration.

tl;dr -- to me it replaces the Concentration entirely, but there are readings that are more restrictive. it's not 100% clear from the text alone.

[newguydude1]

You can sidestep this whole mess by persisting sonorous hum (SpC 196), though, which, as a Personal-range spell with a 1 minute/level duration whose whole point is maintaining concentration on a Concentration duration spell, is pretty unambiguously persistable and hard to argue against doing what you want.

its a dispel magic and spell known thing. using supernatural spell on animate weapon to make it undispellable makes it illegal for sonorous hum on the account of it no longer being a spell so i need to concentrate on it all day.

im also the type of wizard to never add spells to his spell book outside of leveling up. so not needing sonorous hum is a huge deal for me.



ok so detect magic is a concentration upto 1min/level spell.
so the question here is, does persistent spell turn "concentration upto 1min/level" to "concentration upto 24 hours" and detect spells receive special treatment
or does it turn into "24 hours", "you dont need to maintain concentration", and detect magic is just an example and not the special exception?

[KillianHawkeye]

im also the type of wizard to never add spells to his spell book outside of leveling up.

Wait, really? People play like that? But why? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

[newguydude1]

Wait, really? People play like that? But why? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

cause i dont want to rely on an entire kingdoms supply chain when i build a character.

"i go wizard to get all these spells. oh wait dm didnt give me a magic shop for 10 levels. my entire characters shtick is now ruined. wah wah wah" <--- dont want this to be me.

[Quertus]

Uhh...

"You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells"

"Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds."

Neither of these quotes is particularly true to the original.

[AnimeTheCat]

I think the most important part of this whole thread is actually the part that isn't even bolded in the Persistent Spell description. You can only persist a personal or fixed range spell, of which touch is neither. Touch is not a fixed range, while something like the range from Blast of Flame (simply range: 60 ft) is a fixed range.

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of 3.5 errata or FAQ, etc. so I'm sure this has been addressed, but I don't think "Range: Touch" spells are valid targets for the Persistent Spell metamagic.

[Venger]

We're assuming he would make it eligible through ocular spell, as already mentioned in the op.

[Remuko]

I think the most important part of this whole thread is actually the part that isn't even bolded in the Persistent Spell description. You can only persist a personal or fixed range spell, of which touch is neither. Touch is not a fixed range, while something like the range from Blast of Flame (simply range: 60 ft) is a fixed range.

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of 3.5 errata or FAQ, etc. so I'm sure this has been addressed, but I don't think "Range: Touch" spells are valid targets for the Persistent Spell metamagic.

touch being fixed or not is something consistently debated on this forum.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you think about it, "Range: Touch" essentially means "Range: 0 ft".

[newguydude1]

touch being fixed or not is something consistently debated on this forum.

yeah but its the vast majority vs a minority. the errata specifically forbids touch spells. warweaver also says touch spells and fixed ranged are different. the intent of persistent spell is clear, personal or aura spells but there are no spell category called aura spells so they just went with fixed range since all aura spells happened to be fixed range.

if i went to a dm and said "increased to 24 hours" makes it duration:24 hours instead of duration:concentration upto 24 hours", hes gonna label me as rule lawyer munchkin. likewise if i went to a dm said 3.0 errata gets negated and ignored in 3.5 and that war weaver isnt saying touch spells are not fixed range but instead just a specific subcategory of fixed range that happened to be excluded in the class feature description even though the language is a copy and paste from the persistent spell errata, hes also gonna label me as a rule lawyer munchkin.

if something requires vast amount of rule lawyering that includes negating and removing rule text that directly says your wrong via primary source rule not to prove your right, but just to create a possibility that your power gaming interpretation is possibly valid, then... yeah. no one at your table is gonna think your not a munchkin rule lawyer.

[ixrisor]

You can just use ocular spell, that’s not the main point of this thread, let’s not get bogged down in it.

[Segev]

The full text on persistent detect spells says that you don’t need to maintain concentration to merely sense the presence of whatever they detect, but that you need to concentrate to get the additional rounds’ of concentration effects.

In context, then, it’s not carving out special exceptions for detection spells one way or another, but explaining how their effects (other than duration) that specifically depend on concentration work when the spell duration becomes “24 hours.”

The spell’s duration is increased to 24 hours. If this is longer than the time you spend concentrating on it, then 24 hours is longer than the spell otherwise would last, and thus the increase to 24 hours becomes the spell’s new duration.

[Darg]

yeah but its the vast majority vs a minority. the errata specifically forbids touch spells. warweaver also says touch spells and fixed ranged are different.

Which errata was that? Where in the war weaver description does it clarify that touch is not a fixed range? Is it because of the inference that fixed range means not being a range category even though nothing says that is the case? Ocular spells infers that Ray spells are separate from other spells with range, should that be taken that ray spells should be taken as not being fixed range or or have range categories?

[sreservoir]

If you think about it, "Range: Touch" essentially means "Range: 0 ft".

Range: Touch is actually very different from a range of 0 ft. (which also exists—phantom steed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), minor creation (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm)): you can normally attack 5 ft out (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#meleeAttacks), there's this whole bizarre carveout for holding the charge (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#touchSpellsandHoldingtheChar ge) and specific rules for how many friends you can touch at a time (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#holdingtheCharge), and of course whether the spell counts as a melee or ranged weapon matters to how you compute your attack bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackBonus).


Which errata was that? Where in the war weaver description does it clarify that touch is not a fixed range? Is it because of the inference that fixed range means not being a range category even though nothing says that is the case?

FRCS had errata for Persistent Spell which was not copied into later printings:


p. 37, Persistent Spell:
Second sentence Change: “Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged.” To “Spells of instantaneous duration, spells with a range of touch, and spells whose effects are discharged cannot be affected by this feat.”

The later printings technically supersede the errata text, and since both the "instantaneous duration" and "effects are discharged" clauses add restrictions, this phrasing arguably implies that the "range of touch" clause should be read as an additional restriction.

As for the war weaver thing, it's the Enlarged Tapestry feature:


Spells you cast through an eldritch tapestry have their range category increased: touch spells become close range, close-range spells become medium range, and medium-range spells become long range. Long-range spells and spells with fixed ranges are unaffected.

The implication is that touch spells are not "spells with fixed ranges". Also interestingly, the apparent exhaustiveness suggests that the one non-defined range category here, "spells with fixed ranges", ought to cover the other three range categories: Personal, Unlimited, and "Range Expressed in Feet".

This puts us in kind of an interesting position: is Unlimited a fixed range? If so, then Enlarged Tapestry's list of ranges seems intended to be exhaustive (and yes, there a few Unlimited range spells that can be cast through the tapestry—word of recall (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm) is one), but there is at least one spell with duration, illusion purge (RoE 187), which has a nonstandard range expressed in feet (5 ft./level). This is clearly not a "fixed" range by the meaning of the word, but if you slice up the categories in such a way that touch spells aren't fixed, then you can kind of make a case for being able to persist it.

(As for persisting Unlimited range spells, well, persistent arcane eye could be kind of cool.)

[Venger]

the errata specifically forbids touch spells

No it doesn't. Complete arcane, the most recent printing of persistent spell, has nothing about this in its errata.

[Darg]

FRCS had errata for Persistent Spell which was not copied into later printings:



The later printings technically supersede the errata text, and since both the "instantaneous duration" and "effects are discharged" clauses add restrictions, this phrasing arguably implies that the "range of touch" clause should be read as an additional restriction.

As for the war weaver thing, it's the Enlarged Tapestry feature:

Both of those examples contradict eachother. First the errata had to explicitly call out touch range spells as not qualifying. It wouldn't need to if touch spells weren't fixed range. Second, the war weaver feature isn't exclusive. The benefit affects spells with range categories. The proper term if they really wanted to exclude touch spells would have been "spells with range expressed in feet."

Fixed range spells could be defined as spells whose range does not grow with the character and it wouldn't contradict the the errata or war weaver and still include touch range spells.

[KillianHawkeye]

The errata that had to specifically ban use with touch spells is the exception that proves the rule (being that touch spells otherwise qualify as fixed range). The fact that the change was not used in later printings also heavily implies that they changed their mind about denying the use with touch spells.

[gogogome]

Both of those examples contradict eachother. First the errata had to explicitly call out touch range spells as not qualifying. It wouldn't need to if touch spells weren't fixed range. Second, the war weaver feature isn't exclusive. The benefit affects spells with range categories. The proper term if they really wanted to exclude touch spells would have been "spells with range expressed in feet."

This line of reasoning is nonsense. WotC repeats general rules in spell descriptions and feat descriptions all the time.

[Segev]

I think it's been established that whether touch spells are valid targets for Persistent Spell is contentious. It also isn't the topic of this thread, but is actively getting in the way of discussing the thread topic. I request that we focus on the thread topic.

I mainly do this because I fear my post which I believe answers the OP's question (and is in contradiction to the conclusions of prior posts on the subject, thus may require further discussion) has been missed in this rather circular debate. I reiterate the post here, because while I think my logic sound, I am open to being proven wrong if I have missed something, and I know it is not in line with the conclusions others have drawn from the feat:


The full text on persistent detect spells says that you don’t need to maintain concentration to merely sense the presence of whatever they detect, but that you need to concentrate to get the additional rounds’ of concentration effects.

In context, then, it’s not carving out special exceptions for detection spells one way or another, but explaining how their effects (other than duration) that specifically depend on concentration work when the spell duration becomes “24 hours.”

The spell’s duration is increased to 24 hours. If this is longer than the time you spend concentrating on it, then 24 hours is longer than the spell otherwise would last, and thus the increase to 24 hours becomes the spell’s new duration.

The conclusion here being that any spell which may be validly made Persistent that has a Concentration duration will no longer have that requirement, but that any effect within the spell that references Concentration may still require the caster to resume Concentration to get the effect. The explicit carve-out for detection spells being that the "sense presence" level does NOT require Concentration, though the other "requires Concentration" effects do still require it.

[AnimeTheCat]

Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't read the ocular spell bit when I originally commented about range.

I agree with what Segev has said. Sounds the most reasonable if the feat targets a spell like that.

[newguydude1]

ok so we have two interpretations competing to be the one true raw.

1. by raw "increased to 24 hours" doesnt remove the concentration requirement. so detect line of spells is a special exception.
2. detect line of spells is not a special exception but a normal example so we extrapolate that all concentration spells no longer need concentration, but still require concentration to gain the effects.

how do we determine which is the one true raw.

[KillianHawkeye]

The conclusion here being that any spell which may be validly made Persistent that has a Concentration duration will no longer have that requirement, but that any effect within the spell that references Concentration may still require the caster to resume Concentration to get the effect. The explicit carve-out for detection spells being that the "sense presence" level does NOT require Concentration, though the other "requires Concentration" effects do still require it.

I agree with this line of reasoning.

[Darg]

ok so we have two interpretations competing to be the one true raw.

1. by raw "increased to 24 hours" doesnt remove the concentration requirement. so detect line of spells is a special exception.
2. detect line of spells is not a special exception but a normal example so we extrapolate that all concentration spells no longer need concentration, but still require concentration to gain the effects.

how do we determine which is the one true raw.

Occam's Razor works very well. The most simple solution is most likely the correct one. Persistent spell increases the duration to 24 hours. Persistent spell doesn't overwrite the concentration aspect of concentration spells. So you have 3 different types of concentration duration: concentration, concentration + rounds(/level), and concentration amount of time(/level). The first doesn't have a duration to increase as it can already reach ad infinitum and so is unaffected. The second and third have durations to increase so are affected. The second would have a duration of concentration + 24 hours. The third would have a duration of concentration, up to 24 hours.

To directly answer your OP: yes and the weapon would stay animate just like if the + 1 round in the duration was 24 hours.

Detect spells have a special component to fully benefit from their effect: studying the area or subject. To facilitate that component, persistent spell tells you that you still need to concentrate to receive further benefits. Animate weapon already has a pseudo concentration function built in: the move action to redirect the weapon. So you wouldn't need to actually concentrate to keep the spell going or direct it.

[Segev]

I don’t think Occam’s Razor cuts that way. There is nothing simpler than, “is the duration of 24 hours longer than the duration would otherwise be? If yes, the duration is now 24 hours.” Adding special complications for spells that include the word “concentration” in their duration line is not simpler.

I’m not actually arguing for a Occam’s Tazor interpretation, here, though. Just pointing out that I don’t think it applies as described in a prior post.

My argument is that there is no exception given for concentration spells. The full context of the line mentioning the lack of need to concentrate on detect spells has nothing to do with excusing them from concentration duration. It is explicitly referring to the need (or lack thereof) to concentrate to get specific effects the detect spells grant that are based on concentrating. Nowhere does it mention the duration of the detect spells in the sentence or set of sentences relations to their requirements wrt concentration.

Absent any text creating exception for concentration-duration spells, my argument is that they, like every other spell whose duration would be less than 24 hours, have that duration increased to 24 hours.

Put another way, the Persistent Spell feat changes the Duration line of the spell to: “[the existing duration] or 24 hours, whichever is longer.”

[Darg]

Put another way, the Persistent Spell feat changes the Duration line of the spell to: “[the existing duration] or 24 hours, whichever is longer.”

The original incarnation prior to the update in CArc completely replaces the duration to be 24 hours. CArc changes the text to "duration increased to 24 hours." It no longer replaces the concentration part of the duration. A concentration spell would still have the concentration part of the duration as I mentioned in my prior post. You have concentration spells, concentration + duration spells, or concentration for a duration spells. I think my argument still stands as the most simple. Simple doesn't have to mean the simplest to explain. With the 1st and 3rd spell types you still have to contend with the fact that concentration spells end when you stop concentrating.

[Segev]

The original incarnation prior to the update in CArc completely replaces the duration to be 24 hours. CArc changes the text to "duration increased to 24 hours." It no longer replaces the concentration part of the duration. A concentration spell would still have the concentration part of the duration as I mentioned in my prior post. You have concentration spells, concentration + duration spells, or concentration for a duration spells. I think my argument still stands as the most simple. Simple doesn't have to mean the simplest to explain. With the 1st and 3rd spell types you still have to contend with the fact that concentration spells end when you stop concentrating.

I don’t see how the rules in Persistent Spell specify that the “concentration” part of the duration is left intact. The only way it would remain is if you were going to concentrate on it for longer than 24 hours. If (say) you were going to concentrate on the spell for two days, it’s duration would be 48 hours and thus it could not be increased to 24 hours. But if you stop concentrating before 24 hours are up, it’s duration is less than 24 hours and thus Persistent Spell increases it to 24 hours.

I understand your explanation of there being three kinds of duration, but the rules don’t actually support them being different categories. They’re all just durations, with different means of calculating them. Furthermore, by trying to treat them as different categories, you are literally making the logic required to apply Persistent Spell less simple; we now need to figure out which portion of the duration is modified.

The simplest formulation is to figure out the duration of the spell and, if it’s less than 24 hours, increase it to 24 hours.

Furthermore, a spell with concentration listed as part of its duration is, again, only telling you how to determine the duration, no different than a spell that says “1 round/level.” It’s duration is the concentration, up to a limit or with some duration added after or just flat out as long as you concentrate.

Nothing in Persostent Spell says it only extends the maximum duration, not the duration after you finish concentrating. It says it increases the duration to 24 hours.

It is both more complicated to calculate the duration if you have to combine the 24 hours with a concentration requirement (especially if the concentration is treated separately and thus we must determine if we’re increasing a limit or an extension past the end of consentration), and it requires treating concentration not as part of the duration but as an additional requirement for the spell.

The sentences about detect spells shows is that the feat doesn’t change concentration requirements outside of the duration, but through its silence on the effect on durations (including not saying that the lack of concentration on a persistent detect spell failing to end it being an exception) tells us that it fully overwrites the duration line and requirements if doing so increases the duration to 24 hours.

That is, it gives specific rules for how to handle detect spells’ non-duration concentration requirements, because the feat doesn’t already address those in its earlier wording. It notably doesn’t say that the detect spells don’t end if you stop concentrating on them. If the feat changed the duration to “concentration, up to 24 hours” by default, the sentences on detect spells don’t give us text to change it. “You don’t have to concentrate on detect spells to sense the presence of what they detect” doesn’t actually say the spell doesn’t end if you stop concentrating. It’s implied, but implication is not written rule. It is signs that something is assumed to already be established.

Therefore, in order for the implied assumption that the detect spells do not end when you cease to concentrate on them to be accurate, the Persistent Spell feat must already make that so without that line. If it makes it so without discussing detect spells, specifically, it must make it so for all spells with concentration in the calculation of their duration.

In conclusion, it remains simplest to replace the entire calculation with “24 hours” of the calculation would otherwise be less than 24 hours, and less simple to have to figure out how to recalculate par of the duration to leave concentration intact as part of the duration calculation. It also is implied that there’s no need to specifically state that detect spells have their duration disconnected from concentration by the sentences discussing them, since those sentences discuss how the spell effects (but not duration) are modified by when you are or are not concentrating. If the feat left concentration as a duration requirement, the sentences would make no sense because even though you could detect the presence of a thing without concentrating, the spell would be over if you stopped concentrating, since those sentences don’t say the duration ignores the concentration line.

[Darg]

I'm not saying that the durations of the spells wouldn't be increased. I am pointing out the function of concentration rules:


Concentration

The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end.

You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating.

Detect spells are the only exemption as they're specifically called out in the description of persistent spell. Types 1 and 3 would have their effect end once you stop concentrating as per the rules for concentrating on a spell. Type 2 is different as you are adding an additional duration to the concentration making it separate from the concentration rules. This makes type 2 the only exception to the spell ends when you stop concentrating rule.

Your argument requires the assumption that concentration is less than a 24 hour duration when there are plenty of examples of them not actually competing with each other, and most of the examples have them working concurrently with each other to a couple of different effects.

[Segev]

I'm not saying that the durations of the spells wouldn't be increased. I am pointing out the function of concentration rules:



Detect spells are the only exemption as they're specifically called out in the description of persistent spell. Types 1 and 3 would have their effect end once you stop concentrating as per the rules for concentrating on a spell. Type 2 is different as you are adding an additional duration to the concentration making it separate from the concentration rules. This makes type 2 the only exception to the spell ends when you stop concentrating rule.

Your argument requires the assumption that concentration is less than a 24 hour duration when there are plenty of examples of them not actually competing with each other, and most of the examples have them working concurrently with each other to a couple of different effects.

The issue is your "types 1 and 3." They don't exist. Or rather, they do exist, because we can define categories and name them such, and they're even useful categories to have for discussion purposes. However, they're not defined by the RAW as distinct duration types that can only be partially modified by things that modify duration. Adding this unwritten restriction to them is not the most simple reading of the RAW. Thus, the Occam's Razor argument doesn't work.

Further, I don't see anything in the quoted text from the SRD that says that replacing the "concentration" part of the duration is impossible, nor that replacing it leaves the requirement to concentrate on the spell intact. To the contrary, the quoted element is telling us how to resolve a spell that has a duration of concentration.

If a spell stops having a duration of concentration, or if it has a duration of "concentration or 24 hours, whichever is longer," losing concentration on it no longer ends the spell, unless you've been concentrating on it for more than 24 hours. (There's even room to argue that it could last for 24 hours, and if you start concentrating on it one round before 24 hours are up, it will keep running until you stop concentrating on it. I am not making this argument, and would leave that for rule of cool/drama vs. balance as far as an individual DM is concerned, though.)

But to reiterate, it is your characterization of "types 1, 2, and 3" of duration as having different rules wrt the replacement of the duration by a feat that I disagree with. I both see that as less simple (so Occam's Razor argues against it, not for, though I do not rely on Occam's Razor here), and as unsupported by the RAW.

The RAW provide a duration for the spell. Some spells have a concentration-related duration; the quoted part of the SRD in your post explains what "concentration" means, and, if the spell's duration is "concentration," then it ends when your concentration breaks. Persistent Spell changes the duration of the spell in a specific way: it increases the duration to 24 hours. If "24 hours" is not an increase, it does nothing. If for any reason "24 hours" is an increase over what the spell's duration would otherwise be, the spell's duration becomes 24 hours. Concentration-duration spells on which you lose concentration prior to 24 hours have a duration less than 24 hours. Thus, Persistent Spell would extend that duration beyond the duration of your concentration, to a total of 24 hours.

Persistent Spell says that you do not need to concentrate on detect spells to sense the presence of whatever they detect. Claiming that this is stating that you do not need to concentrate on detect spells, period, is like saying that, "In Monopoly, you do not need to pass Go to collect $200; you can collect $200 from various rent or chance or community chest cards," is giving permission to a player to refuse to pass Go when he rolls a number of spaces that would send him past Go. It is not a correct reading of that sentence.

Persistent Spell, even without that sentence, already gives you the ability to keep the detect spell (and any other with a duration dependent on concentration, absent the metamagic application), going for 24 hours without concentration, because 24 hours is longer than it would have lasted if it ended when you stopped concentrating.

That sentence specifically alters how detect spells work further when this metamagic is applied, enabling you to sense the presence of whatever the spell detects without having to concentrate. It then goes on to specify that it does not lift the requirement to concentrate for 2 and 3 rounds to get the more and more specific information. I will note that the SRD rules on concentration that you quoted apply, here, too: if something breaks your concentration before you've concentrated for 2 rounds, you don't get round 2's information until you start over on the concentration. But it doesn't say that the spell ends when you stop concentrating on it. It only says your concentration breaks under certain conditions, and, if a spell has a duration of "concentration" (or otherwise RELATED TO concentration), the duration related to concentration ends when your concentration breaks.

Persistent Spell will keep it running anyway by increasing the duration to 24 hours even if your concentration breaks, because 24 hours is longer than you were concentrating on it. (If that's not true, and you were concentrating on it for 24 hours and six seconds or longer, breaking concentration ends it.)

[Darg]

As I mentioned, you are making the assumption that a duration of concentration can be increased and that concentration is being replaced. If you use the version of persistent spell prior to compete arcane your argument is simply fact and that may very well be the intent of the feat. However, I prefer to leave assumptions out of arguments as it can lead to fallacies.

If you don't make the assumption that concentration is replaced then my argument stands. I didn't clarify types of concentration duration, I was clarifying how concentration was used in different spells. Concentration is used in conjuction with a duration not in place of. That being the case, I can't see how the updated version of persistent spell overwrites the rules for concentration as you conclude. A persisted concentration doesn't add 24 hours and it doesn't limit the duration to 24 hours. It only increases the duration to 24 hours. The spell effect will still end if you stop concentrating unless you have an additional duration to increase to 24 hours.

If your argument is correct, on a spell like animate weapon it would have a minimum duration of 48 hours because it has 2 durations added together.

In addition, you are assuming that the specific exemption of detect spells is an example to predicate all judgements of how all persisted spells should function. There is no "or" in any scenario. If a spell can’t be increased to a duration of 24 hours it simply can't be persisted.

What about a thought experiment? If extend spell could be used on a spell with duration: concentration, what would be the outcome? I posit that there is no duration to increase by 2x.

[Segev]

As I mentioned, you are making the assumption that a duration of concentration can be increased and that concentration is being replaced. If you use the version of persistent spell prior to compete arcane your argument is simply fact and that may very well be the intent of the feat. However, I prefer to leave assumptions out of arguments as it can lead to fallacies.I mean, if you claim that reading "the spell duration increases to 24 hours" as meaning "the spell duration increases to 24 hours" is an assumption, I guess I'm making an assumption. But no, there's no "assumption" that "the concentration is being replaced." The text of the feat says the duration increases to 24 hours. That is the sole fact my argument rests upon.

If anything, you're making an unsupported assumption that "concentration" overrides the duration.


If you don't make the assumption that concentration is replaced then my argument stands.It does not. Your argument, again, relies on an assumption that "concentration" is both part of the duration AND not part of the duration. Or, rather, that it is somehow not to be considered a part of the duration that can be extended, despite the fact that no text exists saying so. You invent the classifications to fit the three types of duration into, and then try to treat them as if different rules apply to each of them.

You're perfectly fine in defining/codifying the classifications; they are useful categories for discussion. However, there are no rules that call them out distinctly and state that rules for changing durations apply differently to each category.

The rules do what they say they do. All three categories you have are just ways of calculating the duration of the spell. Persistent Spell increases any spell to which it's applied's duration to 24 hours. No rules state anywhere that "concentration" being included in the duration somehow overrides other rules changing the duration.


I didn't clarify types of concentration duration, I was clarifying how concentration was used in different spells.You're insisting that these spells are treated differently under the rules from each other. They are not.


Concentration is used in conjuction with a duration not in place of.False. Concentration is part of how you calculate the duration. It is literally in the "duration" line. It is not "in conjunction" with duration; it is part of the way the duration is determined.


That being the case, I can't see how the updated version of persistent spell overwrites the rules for concentration as you conclude.Your claim isn't the case.

A persisted concentration doesn't add 24 hours and it doesn't limit the duration to 24 hours. It only increases the duration to 24 hours.This is accurate. The spell duration becomes 24 hours iff the duration would, for any reason, be less than 24 hours.

The spell effect will still end if you stop concentrating unless you have an additional duration to increase to 24 hours.No, because the duration of the spell if you stop concentrating is however long it was from when you started concentrating to when you stopped. If that is less than 24 hours, the spell duration is increased to 24 hours.


If your argument is correct, on a spell like animate weapon it would have a minimum duration of 48 hours because it has 2 durations added together.Incorrect. I'll quote it just so everyone's on the same page (I'm not asserting that you don't know what it is):


Duration: Concentration + 1 round

That is a single duration. The duration is "however long you maintain concentration, plus one round." If you concentrate for 0 rounds, the duration is 1 round. If you concentrate for 3 rounds, the duration is 4 rounds. If you concentrate for 9 rounds, the duration is 1 minute. If you concentrate for 14,999 rounds, the duration is 15,000 rounds.

If you cast Persistent animate weapon, and you concentrate for 0 rounds, the duration is 24 hours. If you concentrate for 3 rounds, the duration is 24 hours. If you concentrate for 9 rounds, the duration is 24 hours. If you concentrate for 14,999 rounds, the duration is 15,000 rounds (because 24 hours is 14,400 rounds, and thus 15,000 rounds cannot be increased to 24 hours.


In addition, you are assuming that the specific exemption of detect spells is an example to predicate all judgements of how all persisted spells should function.No. You are absolutely misunderstanding my argument. I am stating that there is no specific exemption of detect spells. At all. Reading the sentence involving detect spells as making any claims about the duration of detect spells is fundamentally misreading the sentence. Let me quote myself to try to emphasize this point. Please respond to this quote if you wish to address this point further, because you must demonstrate how I'm wrong, here, before it's even possible to suggest that the sentence involving detect spells create an exception for them:


Persistent Spell says that you do not need to concentrate on detect spells to sense the presence of whatever they detect. Claiming that this is stating that you do not need to concentrate on detect spells, period, is like saying that, "In Monopoly, you do not need to pass Go to collect $200; you can collect $200 from various rent or chance or community chest cards," is giving permission to a player to refuse to pass Go when he rolls a number of spaces that would send him past Go. It is not a correct reading of that sentence.


There is no "or" in any scenario. If a spell can’t be increased to a duration of 24 hours it simply can't be persisted.Technically untrue, but also irrelevant. At least if I understand what you're saying, here.

First, addressing the technicality: nothing in Persistent Spell says it can't be applied to a spell with a duration of, say, 1 day/level. However, Persistent Spell does nothing but increase the spell slot required to cast such a spell, because there is no increasing something that is 24 hours or longer to 24 hours. The spell duration of 1 day/level remains the duration, just as Persistent animate weapon has a duration of 15,000 rounds if you concentrate on it for 14,999 rounds, same as non-Persistent animate weapon.

Secondly, addressing the irrelevancy: It says it increases the duration to 24 hours. There is no stated "or," but there doesn't need to be. You can restate "increase the budget of Department 7 to $10 million" as, "If Department 7 has less than $10 million in budget, change their budget to $10 million." This can ALSO be restated as, "The new budget for Department S shall be their current budget, or $10 million, whichever is greater." You cannot read it as, "decrease their budget to $10 million." If it is impossible to increase their budget to $10 million, it is impossible to do, and nothing will be changed.

There is an "or" if you choose to restate it as having one. There is an "if...then" if you choose to restate it as having one. But neither is necessary if one reads it straight-forwardly. The restatements are simply there to clarify.

And I am no relying on an "or" to make my claim. I am relying on a straightforward reading of the rules: You increase the duration to 24 hours. If the duration is not more than 24 hours for any reason, Persistent spell increases it to 24 hours. If you wish to show that there is an exception that states that Persistent spells with baseline durations that include concentration in the calculation of their duration still require concentration, or their durations are not increased to 24 hours, you need to actually quote some rules that say so.

So far, you've tried to claim that concentration is a separate qualifier on duration and not merely part of how duration is calculated (which is not supported by any rules you've quoted), and you've quoted the rules for concentration (which only show how concentration can be broken and that any spell that relies on concentration for its duration has the concentration part of its duration ended when your concentration is broken), and you've tried to claim that "You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected," means that there is an exception granted that says, "You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells," and that this is a specific exception. However, as I pointed out before, this is like saying the sentence, "You do not need to pass Go to collect $200," which is a true statement about Monopoly, means, "You do not need to pass Go," which is not a true statement about Monopoly.

To reiterate: there is no exception given by Persistent Spell to detect spells enabling you to not have to concentrate on them. Persistent Spell doesn't NEED to grant an exception to detect spells to make you not need to concentrate on them; by increasing the duration to 24 hours, as long as you weren't concentrating for more than 24 hours in the first place, it already removes the need to concentrate to maintain the spell's duration.


What about a thought experiment? If extend spell could be used on a spell with duration: concentration, what would be the outcome? I posit that there is no duration to increase by 2x.
A good thought experiment. I first want to quote Extend Spell, here, just to be clear about what it does say, and what this thought experiment is changing:

An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Note that, per the RAW for Extend Spell, a spell with a duration of concentration is not affected by Extend Spell.

Now! Your thought experiment says to assume that Extend Spell could be applied to Concentration-duration spells. If it could, then we would look to the first sentence of Extend Spell: "An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal." The normal duration of a spell with "Duration: Concentration" is however long you concentrate on it. Therefore, an Extended Duration:Concentration spell would last for however long you concentrated on it, plus a like time thereafter. So, if you concentrated on it for 1 round, it would last a total of 2 (1 of which you were not concentrating for). If you concentrated on it for 10 rounds, it would last for a total of 2 minutes (1 minute of which you were not concentrating on it for). If you concentrated on it for 24 hours, it would last for 2 days (the second of which you need not concentrate on it for).

That is the straightforward reading of the RAW, with your thought experiment caveat that Extend can apply to spells of duration: concentration.


I will note that Extend Spell expressly excludes such spells from its effects. I will further note that Persistent Spell has no such exclusion.

If your interpretation of duration: concentration being some sort of additional limiter that is separate but working in conjunction with the actual duration of the spell were accurate, Extend Spell wouldn't need to exclude concentration-duration spells from its effects; it would automatically end when you stopped concentrating, since the doubled duration wouldn't matter without the concentration.

[sreservoir]

As I mentioned, you are making the assumption that a duration of concentration can be increased and that concentration is being replaced. If you use the version of persistent spell prior to compete arcane your argument is simply fact and that may very well be the intent of the feat. However, I prefer to leave assumptions out of arguments as it can lead to fallacies.

There are two questions being raised here:

First, whether spells with a duration of Concentration can be persisted at all. The presence of the detect carveout kind of implies that it's taken for granted that they can be persisted. You can, if you want, argue that 24 hours is not an "increase" over unbounded Concentration, and thus spells with duration Concentration can't be persisted in general unless they also have a duration limit less than 24 hours. But note that this reading has the rather inelegant implication that you can cast persistent detect evil with CL 143rd, but a CL 145th detect evil can't be persisted and you have to concentrate on it.

Second, in the case that you can persist the spell and the duration is increased to 24 hours, whether the duration is "replaced", eliminating the concentration requirement. This is not an assumption; it is the words on the page: the spell has its duration increased to 24 hours. Not the limit on its duration. Not up to 24 hours. In English, this means that, if the effect is applied, then, after the effect is applied, the duration of the spell is 24 hours.

[newguydude1]

Second, in the case that you can persist the spell and the duration is increased to 24 hours, whether the duration is "replaced", eliminating the concentration requirement. This is not an assumption; it is the words on the page: the spell has its duration increased to 24 hours. Not the limit on its duration. Not up to 24 hours. In English, this means that, if the effect is applied, then, after the effect is applied, the duration of the spell is 24 hours.

for some reason this convinced me.

you definitely can persist concentration spells. detect magic is proof.
its duration is increased to 24 hours, not concentration + 24 hours
as a result you dont need to maintain concentration. detect magic is proof.
if the effect requires you to focus or whatnot you still need to concentrate, but you can do it on and off at will, as if its permanencied (which detect spells explicitly says they can be).



but i ran into a different problem.

according to the text of ocular spell, you cast the ocular spell to store it in your eye, and then you cast it again to shoot it.
according to the example inside the text of ocular spell, you cast the ocular spell to store it in your eye, but then you dont recast it. you use a fullround action to just release it.

if the feat works the 2nd way, then its not legal for persistent spell because when you cast it, its range hasnt changed to 60ft yet, and you dont cast it a 2nd time so you cant enhance it with dmm or naenhoon afterwards.

if the feat works the 1st way, then everything is a ok.

should i start a new thread or should we talk about this here as well?

[Segev]

for some reason this convinced me.

you definitely can persist concentration spells. detect magic is proof.
its duration is increased to 24 hours, not concentration + 24 hours
as a result you dont need to maintain concentration. detect magic is proof.
if the effect requires you to focus or whatnot you still need to concentrate, but you can do it on and off at will, as if its permanencied (which detect spells explicitly says they can be).That is my read on it, too. (Just affirming that I agree with you.)


but i ran into a different problem.

according to the text of ocular spell, you cast the ocular spell to store it in your eye, and then you cast it again to shoot it.
according to the example inside the text of ocular spell, you cast the ocular spell to store it in your eye, but then you dont recast it. you use a fullround action to just release it.

if the feat works the 2nd way, then its not legal for persistent spell because when you cast it, its range hasnt changed to 60ft yet, and you dont cast it a 2nd time so you cant enhance it with dmm or naenhoon afterwards.

if the feat works the 1st way, then everything is a ok.

should i start a new thread or should we talk about this here as well?

Probably a topic for a second thread, yeah. It's certainly a controversial issue, right up there with whether persistent spell can apply to touch spells.

[sreservoir]

but i ran into a different problem.

You want Reach Spell instead, which has the benefit of being worded ("spell that normally has a range of touch") as to imply that, in the abnormal case that the feat is applied, the spell no longer has a range of touch.

[newguydude1]

You want Reach Spell instead, which has the benefit of being worded ("spell that normally has a range of touch") as to imply that, in the abnormal case that the feat is applied, the spell no longer has a range of touch.

no i dont. im trying to use naenhoon twice which you cant because its a swift action. if im casting ocular spell twice then i can apply ocular spell on first cast and then persistent spell on second cast.

i made a new thread:https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?621522-are-you-casting-ocular-spell-twice

[Darg]

The text of the feat says the duration increases to 24 hours. That is the sole fact my argument rests upon.

If anything, you're making an unsupported assumption that "concentration" overrides the duration.

At this point, anything more would be beating a dead horse with how thorough you have been. Considering the previous versions of the spell and the slight word change in the description, it's obvious what the intent was for the feat. Thanks for the debate and the solid reasoning.

[Segev]

At this point, anything more would be beating a dead horse with how thorough you have been. Considering the previous versions of the spell and the slight word change in the description, it's obvious what the intent was for the feat. Thanks for the debate and the solid reasoning.

Thank you for the discussion, as well. I like having my positions challenged by counterarguments; it helps me make sure I'm not making any glaring errors in judgment. And whether we're now in agreement or agreeing to disagree, I appreciate the conversation. :smallsmile: