Monk/Druid or Druid/Monk?

[elyktsorb]

SO, I've been working on this whole concept of a Spore Druid/Monk multiclass since Monks get extra attacks and spore druids get to attach a d6 of poison damage to each attack made.

Now I've mainly been working on the idea of only going 2 Druid and making a very mobile (literally) and hard to hit Monk so that I can simply not get hit to protect the 8 temp hp I need to have my additional poison attacks.

But I've also been wondering if maybe I should only go 6 Monk and Druid the rest of the way, which is something I've thought about less, but it would give me more temp hp at the cost of unarmed damage + other monk goodies for avoiding damage in general.

What does anyone think about this?

[x3n0n]

SO, I've been working on this whole concept of a Spore Druid/Monk multiclass since Monks get extra attacks and spore druids get to attach a d6 of poison damage to each attack made.

Now I've mainly been working on the idea of only going 2 Druid and making a very mobile (literally) and hard to hit Monk so that I can simply not get hit to protect the 8 temp hp I need to have my additional poison attacks.

But I've also been wondering if maybe I should only go 6 Monk and Druid the rest of the way, which is something I've thought about less, but it would give me more temp hp at the cost of unarmed damage + other monk goodies for avoiding damage in general.

What does anyone think about this?

I agree that it's a tough call--both classes really really want you to progress their levels. You need Monk levels for ki (Flurry + Symbiotic Form is a lot of damage riders) and to get to lv5 for a whole pile of goodies, and maybe lv6 for a great subclass feature and/or Ki-Empowered Strikes. In addition to Symbiotic Form tHP, Druid levels get you spellcaster progression.

Have you selected a Monk subclass? I think that could affect your choice.

Drunken Master gives you "Mobile" without a feat on any turn that you Flurry, and Open Hand offers something similar if you have a good attack stat by letting you cut off the target's reaction if you hit it. (Open Hand also offers the 15-foot push, which is a great combo with Spike Growth and difficult terrain in general.)

Way of the Kensei (probably Whip and Longbow) gives you a reach attack (for d6 at lv5+), potential +2 to AC in case you get stuck in melee, and a bonus action for additional damage when you need to be ranged.

If the leak is correct, Tasha's Way of the Astral Self stayed close to the UA version, which would make it VERY attractive as your Monk choice: attacking at least twice a turn, with reach, using your Wisdom modifier, at minimal ki cost.

I think the least awkward progression is to start with at least 3 levels of Monk to bring your subclass online and avoid the armored-to-unarmored transition. If you're fine going to 5 without Druid, I probably would--the power bump is large and playstyle-altering.

[Falconcry]

I’ve been theory crafting a Grung Way of Mercy Monk X / Spore Druid 4. With the poisoner feat to take away resistance. Poison on top of poison with some poison, followed by poison in an aura of poison and a sprinkling of necrotic on top.

[elyktsorb]

I agree that it's a tough call--both classes really really want you to progress their levels. You need Monk levels for ki (Flurry + Symbiotic Form is a lot of damage riders) and to get to lv5 for a whole pile of goodies, and maybe lv6 for a great subclass feature and/or Ki-Empowered Strikes. In addition to Symbiotic Form tHP, Druid levels get you spellcaster progression.

Have you selected a Monk subclass? I think that could affect your choice.

Drunken Master gives you "Mobile" without a feat on any turn that you Flurry, and Open Hand offers something similar if you have a good attack stat by letting you cut off the target's reaction if you hit it. (Open Hand also offers the 15-foot push, which is a great combo with Spike Growth and difficult terrain in general.)

Way of the Kensei (probably Whip and Longbow) gives you a reach attack (for d6 at lv5+), potential +2 to AC in case you get stuck in melee, and a bonus action for additional damage when you need to be ranged.

If the leak is correct, Tasha's Way of the Astral Self stayed close to the UA version, which would make it VERY attractive as your Monk choice: attacking at least twice a turn, with reach, using your Wisdom modifier, at minimal ki cost.


My issue with Drunken Master is that there's really not much reason to pick it over Open Hand, since both offer basically the same thing, which is using flurry of blows let's me move away from an enemy. Although Drunken Master's Flurry grantee's me escape, Mobile would allow me to leave even without KI points. In addition Open Fist's Sanctuary actually becomes more of a benefit and prevents enemies from being able to get the drop on me since activating Symbiotic Entity wouldn't end Sanctuary. In addition, I have little to no use for Drunken Master's other features. The getting up with 5 ft of movement is meh because monks get increased movement anyway, and why would I ever spend 1 KI point to make an enemy target another creature with a missed attack when 1 KI point is not only an additional unarmed strike but is also part of my ability to not get hit. Furthermore, I would mainly want to always back off from enemies after attacking them to make sure I don't lose the temp hp, which further makes mobile just the better option in a lot of cases.

Basically I would only be taking Drunken Master for the free disengage on Flurry of Blows and if I do that, taking Mobile is less of a concern, but I'm not sure if it's a better idea given my other feat options aren't the best.

I haven't seen many other feats that would be worth taking over Mobile if I did go drunken master. I've also looked into different races for bonuses as well in the attacking by not being hit department and mobile still seems like the more consistent option.

ALSO I KNOOOW I want that subclass soo baaad.


Also the poisoner feat is pretty garbo because like 13 things have resistance to poison and like 199+ creatures are just immune to it. So you'd be taking it just to negate 13 creatures, most of which I believe are character races.

[x3n0n]

I haven't seen many other feats that would be worth taking over Mobile if I did go drunken master. I've also looked into different races for bonuses as well in the attacking by not being hit department and mobile still seems like the more consistent option.

I agree that Mobile is by far the most consistent way to enable hit-and-run with Symbiotic Form. If you've decided on Variant Human (or new Tasha's custom origin) with Mobile at level 1, then I think you'll be fine with any Monk subclass.

I still think Monk-first is the less-awkward progression, but Druid 2 into Monk isn't horrible (although it probably decreases your AC by 1, unless your Wis is +4). If you never take Druid 1 without Druid 2, your options for opening progression are

Druid 2 -> Monk
Druid 3 -> Monk
Druid 4 -> Monk
Druid 5 -> Monk
Monk 1 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 2 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 3 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 4 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 5 -> Druid 2 -> Monk

I don't think switching after Druid 3, Druid 4, Monk 2, or Monk 4 have much to recommend them, and I assume you don't want to stay in Druid with no extra attacks all the way to 5. That leaves

Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 1 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 3 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 5 -> Druid 2 -> Monk

Monk 5 is the least awkward, but the most delay to Monk + Symbiotic Form.

[elyktsorb]

I agree that Mobile is by far the most consistent way to enable hit-and-run with Symbiotic Form. If you've decided on Variant Human (or new Tasha's custom origin) with Mobile at level 1, then I think you'll be fine with any Monk subclass.

I still think Monk-first is the less-awkward progression, but Druid 2 into Monk isn't horrible (although it probably decreases your AC by 1, unless your Wis is +4). If you never take Druid 1 without Druid 2, your options for opening progression are

Druid 2 -> Monk
Druid 3 -> Monk
Druid 4 -> Monk
Druid 5 -> Monk
Monk 1 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 2 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 3 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 4 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 5 -> Druid 2 -> Monk

I don't think switching after Druid 3, Druid 4, Monk 2, or Monk 4 have much to recommend them, and I assume you don't want to stay in Druid with no extra attacks all the way to 5. That leaves

Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 1 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 3 -> Druid 2 -> Monk
Monk 5 -> Druid 2 -> Monk

Monk 5 is the least awkward, but the most delay to Monk + Symbiotic Form.

Oh I'll most likely be starting with monk. This game is starting out at lvl 3 actually so I'm doing Monk 1/Druid 2 to begin.

Why Monk 1? Well I think getting Dex saves will be more important than Wisdom saves for this.

[x3n0n]

Oh I'll most likely be starting with monk. This game is starting out at lvl 3 actually so I'm doing Monk 1/Druid 2 to begin.

Why Monk 1? Well I think getting Dex saves will be more important than Wisdom saves for this.

Sounds like a plan. Maybe by the time you get to Monk 3, Tasha's will be out and you'll have 2 new choices for your Monk tradition. :)

[elyktsorb]

Sounds like a plan. Maybe by the time you get to Monk 3, Tasha's will be out and you'll have 2 new choices for your Monk tradition. :)

It would be pretty neat. For now I'm going to go over feats and see if there's anything that would make taking Mobile less worth it over Drunken Master in terms of making this work better.

[Sorinth]

Don't forget you lose the damage boost once you lose the temp hp, so having lots of druid levels is important. So somewhere between Monk 5-8 and Druid the rest of the way is probably the way to go.

I'd probably go Open Hand since that also combo's nicely with Spike Growth.

[elyktsorb]

Don't forget you lose the damage boost once you lose the temp hp, so having lots of druid levels is important. So somewhere between Monk 5-8 and Druid the rest of the way is probably the way to go.

I'd probably go Open Hand since that also combo's nicely with Spike Growth.

See that's the thing I'm wondering if it might be more advantageous to just take the 2 levels in Druid, and then build a Monk who's very good at not getting hit.

[Sorinth]

See that's the thing I'm wondering if it might be more advantageous to just take the 2 levels in Druid, and then build a Monk who's very good at not getting hit.

To make a Monk very good at not getting hit, you generally need to spend ki for Patient Defence, so that kind of defeats the purpose of getting lots of attacks. Being mobile and getting out of range works to a degree but it's not something I would want to rely on. Especially since summoning the spores is an action, so it's not something you want to do mid combat, so it's preferable to have higher Druid levels and be less likely to lose it then a few extra ki points to spend.

[x3n0n]

See that's the thing I'm wondering if it might be more advantageous to just take the 2 levels in Druid, and then build a Monk who's very good at not getting hit.

In addition to Sorinth's observations, don't forget about ranged crits and damaging effects that do half on save (which don't ever entirely go away, even after you have Evasion and immunity to poison).

[Keravath]

My issue with Drunken Master is that there's really not much reason to pick it over Open Hand, since both offer basically the same thing, which is using flurry of blows let's me move away from an enemy. Although Drunken Master's Flurry grantee's me escape, Mobile would allow me to leave even without KI points. In addition Open Fist's Sanctuary actually becomes more of a benefit and prevents enemies from being able to get the drop on me since activating Symbiotic Entity wouldn't end Sanctuary. In addition, I have little to no use for Drunken Master's other features. The getting up with 5 ft of movement is meh because monks get increased movement anyway, and why would I ever spend 1 KI point to make an enemy target another creature with a missed attack when 1 KI point is not only an additional unarmed strike but is also part of my ability to not get hit. Furthermore, I would mainly want to always back off from enemies after attacking them to make sure I don't lose the temp hp, which further makes mobile just the better option in a lot of cases.

Basically I would only be taking Drunken Master for the free disengage on Flurry of Blows and if I do that, taking Mobile is less of a concern, but I'm not sure if it's a better idea given my other feat options aren't the best.

I haven't seen many other feats that would be worth taking over Mobile if I did go drunken master. I've also looked into different races for bonuses as well in the attacking by not being hit department and mobile still seems like the more consistent option.

ALSO I KNOOOW I want that subclass soo baaad.


Also the poisoner feat is pretty garbo because like 13 things have resistance to poison and like 199+ creatures are just immune to it. So you'd be taking it just to negate 13 creatures, most of which I believe are character races.

The big difference between drunken master and either open hand or mobile is that by expending the ki for flurry of blows they specifically get the disengage action.

- The open hand needs to hit a target and take away their reaction to escape.
- The mobile monk has to try attacking every target they want to run away from - but they don't need to hit - and don't use ki.
- The drunken way monk can focus their attacks on one target if they like using flurry of blows and then can run away from as many creatures as they like since they are disengaging. They also get 10' of extra movement when they do this making it easier to use this tactic (since by level 3 a typical monk will usually have 40' of movement increasing to 50' when they disengage via flurry of blows. If being able to extricate your monk from a threatening melee situation is important then the drunken master monk does the best job.

That said, I'd go with whichever you want to play, monks are fun and I agree that the mobile feat on a monk is even more fun playing to their strengths (I have a human variant, mobile shadow monk that I really like playing :) ).

[KorvinStarmast]

I went with Monk 1 Druid X and never looked back. However, I saw in advance that at level 13 (but we never got there, campaigns end, so it goes) I'd have to make a choice once I'd gotten Druid 12 (CR 4 Beasts) and that next ASI: do I need to keep Druiding or is it time to go for more? I never had to make that decision. Once you start getting higher level spells, it can get a little addicting to revert to the mostly full caster whose got Dex 16 Wix 18 AC of 18 standing around naked.

[x3n0n]

I went with Monk 1 Druid X and never looked back. However, I saw in advance that at level 13 (but we never got there, campaigns end, so it goes) I'd have to make a choice once I'd gotten Druid 12 (CR 4 Beasts) and that next ASI: do I need to keep Druiding or is it time to go for more? I never had to make that decision. Once you start getting higher level spells, it can get a little addicting to revert to the mostly full caster whose got Dex 16 Wix 18 AC of 18 standing around naked.

That's a nice build!

However, I think OP has been posting for months across multiple threads about specifically wanting to get lots of melee attacks with the Circle of Spores's Symbiotic Form, so Monk 3+ or Monk 5+ helps a lot on the "lots of attacks" front (between Martial Arts, Flurry, and Extra Attack).

[KorvinStarmast]

That's a nice build!

However, I think OP has been posting for months across multiple threads about specifically wanting to get lots of melee attacks with the Circle of Spores's Symbiotic Form, so Monk 3+ or Monk 5+ helps a lot on the "lots of attacks" front (between Martial Arts, Flurry, and Extra Attack). Ah, sorry, hadn't realized that, then go Monk 6 Druid X.

[elyktsorb]

Resurrecting this from the dead because Tasha's has done 2 relevant things to this build.

Firstly, Astral Self Monk is now legit and can be used. This opens up this build in a way that more favors an a more Monk centered split since turning on your Astral Arms costs a ki point. But that's fine because that ability allows you to keep yourself at a distance. As long as you take cover as well you'll avoid ranged attacks while being able to punch people from 10 ft away, due to the monks increased speed, finding cover shouldn't be an issue.

Secondly, Tasha's changed the Spore Druid's Melee Rider damage from Poison to Necrotic. So no longer is it resisted or ignored completely by a lot of enemies. (Not to mention the Astral arms make your unarmed strikes deal force damage so there's no issue with not getting to your 6th lvl fist damage counts as magical.)

So let's do some comparisons.

A 5th Lvl Monk would be doing 1d6+dex (or str) per attack. At 5th lvl that's 2 + your bonus action, plus another if you flurry. You have 5 ki points.

a 3rd lvl Monk and 2nd lvl Spore druid (with spores up) would do 1d4+(wis, dex, or str) + 1d6 + bonus action, plus another if you flurry, you have 2 ki points (as the arms cost 1 to summon)

So lets see how much damage we get to with all ki points on both assuming attacks land.

5th lvl Monk = 5 turns of attacks which is 10 regular attacks 1d6+ dex (or str) + 5 bonus actions so another 5 1d6 + dex (or str) and then 5 flurries, 1d6+dex (or str). It's a monk, so we'll assume a dex of 18 to prioritize our damage here.

So for each turn that's. 4d6+16 so that's about an average of 30 damage per turn * 5 and that's 150 damage over 5 turns.

Now for the 3rd lvl Monk/2nd lvl Druid For the calculation we will assume Spores was turned on before the fight (it lasts for ten minutes so it's not unreasonable to think that.) Astral arms will remain off because it matters to the damage calculation. So we have 5 turns of attacks, which is 5 1d4+(Dex, wis, or str) + 1d6 Necrotic damage, due to the Astral Arms dealing damage upon being summoned, and due to the fact that they deal 2 martial arts die worth of damage when they are summoned, they make up for the lack of a bonus action attack and a ki attack you'd normally get. We will factor that in later though. Since this is a Druid Monk multiclass we'll assume we have 16 Wisdom. So for our first 2 attacks we have. 1d4+wis Force damage + 1d6 Necrotic, once for the normal attack, twice for the bonus action, and 3 times for the flurry of blows.

Making the first 2 turns 3d4+9 + 3d6 which is an average of around 27 + 27 = 54

Our next 3 turns we won't have Flurry of Blows so it's down to 2d4+6 + 2d6 which is an average of around 18*3 = 54 + 54 = 108 for 5 turns. So 27 damage for the first two turns, then 18 damage for the next 3 turns.

Now let's factor in the ARMS. When you summon your arms you deal 2 Martial Arts dies worth of damage to all creatures of your choice within 10 feet of you. This could be as little as just 2d4, or as much as (given the amount of spaces and if all enemies were in every square around you at max range) 2d4*24 for a medium creature. The average of 2d4 being 5 and the average of 48d4 being 120. But we'll keep this realistic and say you have at most 3 enemies within range when activating them. Which averages to 15 with 6d4, add that to 108 and you have 123, 27 less damage than our regular lvl 5 monk (and that's just as a basic open hand monk) It's a bonus action so you can also have 1 attack. So a 1d4+3 + 1d6 so 9 more damage on average.


So you know, if you happen to be a 3rd lvl Astral Monk surrounded by 24 enemies your looking at dealing anywhere between 48 and 120 damage just by summoning your Astral Arms.


But let's see if we can shorten that gap. (I am aware I'm operating on all these attacks hitting, the 5th lvl monk would have a better to hit and would be landing more attacks as a result)

2 levels of Monk to each of them give us a 7th lvl monk, and a 5th lvl Monk/2nd lvl druid. Now they each have their maximum number of regular attacks, and they are both at a d6 of Martial arts die. For our 7th lvl monk, calculation is easy, but we're adding 2 more rounds of attacks to use all the ki so. The monk still makes 4 attacks max, but over 7 turns. So 28 total attacks. So 28d6+16, or 4d6+16 * 7

Anyway 4d6+16 averages to 30 * 7 and we get 210

Now for the multiclass.

So they got higher damage, and an additional attack. So they now have 4d6+wis (which is a +4 now at 18) and they get 4 necrotic riders. 4d6, but they only get 4 attacks for 4 rounds. S0.

4d6+16+4d6 averages to 44 * 4 = 176

Now for 3 rounds of 3 attacks. 3d6+16+3d6 averages to 37 * 3 = 111 + 176 = 287

Now let's look at the 2d6 from summoning the arms, which just averages to 7 for 1 creature. 3 Creatures makes it average to 21. Of course 24 creatures would be 168 damage on average.

So at lvl 7 the multiclass is certainly capable of pulling out more damage.

But let's get to an end goal. Level 20.

For the sake of being more realistic were going to go with a 11/9 split on the multiclass (though I am aware going to 17 with astral arms nets you 3 regular attack actions), why 11/9, because that puts the multiclass up to 1d8 for it's martial arts. And gives you 36 temp hp per wildshape, which you should be able to keep around well enough.

So the lvl 20 Monk has 20 Ki. But being Open Hand, he can spend 3 Ki (so in regular flurries that's just 3d10+15) to deal an instant kill, or 10d10 necrotic on a save. 10d10 Necrotic per 3 ki is way more efficient than using the Ki to use Flurries of Blows. But it also takes an action to deal the Necrotic damage. So turn 1, hit with 1 unarmed strike, next turn, you have to use your action to deal 10d10. Which means you miss out on a round of attacks. Which is only 4d10+20 at this point. So realistically, you sacrifice 7d10+35 to deal 10d10. When you look at it that way it actually seems a little mediocre, and it is. 7d10+35 averages out to 74 damage. Where as 10d10 averages to 55. So while the Ki you would spend on Flurries alone is less damage than using Quivering Palm, the other attacks you miss when using it make it less useful. Of course instantly killing an enemy does there entire health soooo.. Use that when you feel.

But we're less concerned with the Quivering Palm thing, I just want the raw damage.

So. 4 attacks, with 20 ki and we'll need 20 turns to burn it all. (Again, assuming it all goes to flurries of blows.) That will be.

4d10+20 * 20 or 80d10+400 either way it averages to 840 for 20 turns or 42 damage per turn.

Now the Multiclass

With 10 (1 to activate arms) Ki at a d8 of damage. So 10 turns of 4d8+20 + 4d6 averages to 52, multiply by 10 turns for 520 damage over 10 turns. Now for 9 turns with 3d8+15 + 3d6 averages to 39 multiply by 9 for 351 + 520 = 871

Now for the Arms activation, which is now 2d8 for all creatures within 10 ft of the Monk. (We'll say 3 again) So 6d8 averages to 27 + 2d8+10 + 2d6 for your 2 regular attacks, averaging to 26. So 871 +26 = 897. The arms could be as little as an average of 9 to 216 (with max amount of enemies around you) so we'll just say 897 + 9 = 896 damage over 20 turns for our multiclass.


So the Multiclass can technically dish out more damage. 56 more damage. (Again, all these calculations have been made in mind that all attacks will land and deal an average amount of damage. Factoring something like crits in would heavily be in favor of the Druid/Monk because the Necrotic Spore damage would double.)

I didn't even bother touching on the fact that, even though I hate Spore Druid's Zombies, they can make excellent fodder, or blockage material for you to punch around or hide behind to avoid damage, and you make them on a reaction so no interference with your attacks. The Zombie also has it's own turn, so no wasting actions or bonus actions to direct it.


Anyway, I also hope I didn't screw up all this math.