Movement during a Full Attack modification [3.5/PF1]

[Aotrs Commander]

I am (somewhat randomly, I'm not even sure what made me think about it, I've not really looked at anything since I majority completed 3.Aotrs and havent been able to do anything with it) considering this morning laxening the restriction on only being able to make a 5-foot step while making a Full Attack action. (Applicable to either 3.5 and/or PF1.)

I am considering amending it to "You can take more than a five-foot step (up to your current speed) during a Full Attack action, but you take a -5 penalty to all attack rolls made until the start of your next turn. You cannot take this option if you are using an ability that allows you to take movement during a Full Attack action (but you also do not get the penalty.)"

(I don't want it to step on the toes of the abilitirs that already grant you movement as part of a full attack).

Another option I considered would to be sacrifice an attack for 5' of movement (or proportional to your attacks), but that seems very fiddly. A -5 penalty is functionally the equivilent of losing an interative (mostly), which I think is sufficient. (I did consider -6 or even -10.)



Thoughts?

[Darg]

My thoughts may not be the most experienced, but a -5 on all attacks for an entire round is much worse than just losing an iterative attack. There is a reason why the Slashing Flurry feat is terrible.

What is the main goal for this change? Why do you think it would be a good house rule for your games? The 5 step is unique in that it is effectively free action that you can take between attacks. Would your modification replicate that functionality? Is this going to apply to ranged attackers?

My thoughts on making this a balanced option using a 3.5 chassis is that it is an improved spring attack feat or you make the attacker flat-footed after taking the movement for 1 round. The first option is a skilled feat while the second is simply the instability that goes along with ability overreach. It balances out because your enemies get an increased chance to hit you with the AoO and can retaliate with a full attack of their own with better odds (makes light armored attackers more deadly but also more vulnerable).

There are options for making multiple attacks with a standard action already available if you don't mind the feat/level/BAB requirements. Dual Strike, bounding assault/rapid blitz, two-weapon spring attack of tempest, snap kick, shadow pounce, etc. Snap kick is especially effective and leap attack is usable without the charge action. I'm only mentioning these as a comparison to bounce off of.

[Aotrs Commander]

My thoughts may not be the most experienced, but a -5 on all attacks for an entire round is much worse than just losing an iterative attack. There is a reason why the Slashing Flurry feat is terrible.

What is the main goal for this change? Why do you think it would be a good house rule for your games? The 5 step is unique in that it is effectively free action that you can take between attacks. Would your modification replicate that functionality? Is this going to apply to ranged attackers?

My thoughts on making this a balanced option using a 3.5 chassis is that it is an improved spring attack feat or you make the attacker flat-footed after taking the movement for 1 round. The first option is a skilled feat while the second is simply the instability that goes along with ability overreach. It balances out because your enemies get an increased chance to hit you with the AoO and can retaliate with a full attack of their own with better odds (makes light armored attackers more deadly but also more vulnerable).

There are options for making multiple attacks with a standard action already available if you don't mind the feat/level/BAB requirements. Dual Strike, bounding assault/rapid blitz, two-weapon spring attack of tempest, snap kick, shadow pounce, etc. Snap kick is especially effective and leap attack is usable without the charge action. I'm only mentioning these as a comparison to bounce off of.

I had previously upgraded Spring Attack (which, among other things, killed and ate the later version of itself) and stuff like Flurry of Blows (the extra attacks now trigger on on an Attack or Full Attack action) and I did even add one special ability that fighters can get (I know, actual class features, what am I thinking?) that also allows thme to move and make multiple attacks, so there are a fair number of available options, as you, say available to quite a few classes. This was intended as a more of a general solution for anyone, that was the sort of thing you'd use in a pinch. (I intended very specifically not to have the ability be improved by feats, just overwritten by the said abilities.)

With that in mind, I do think your idea of making them flat-footed is actually a much better one; thanks for the idea. (I'd nearly be tempted to add either a token penalty on attack rolls or to AC, but that might almost be too punative.) It does lightly favour heavy-armoured fighters (if they don't have any Dex to start with and if there aren't any enemy Sneak Attackers, it's almost free); but by the same token, those are the ones most likely to be having mobility problems.

It's also thematically consistent (both with the Run action and with other games we use where moving at high speeds also degrades your ability to not get hit).

In fact, I am now considering that I could go one step further on that line of thinking and say there is an option to make (as a Full-Round action) double movement followed by a single attack (as distinct from a charge, which has to be towards the enemy and in a straight line), which likewise makes you flat-footed, and also imposes a -2 AC (like charging), but does not modify your attack roll; and/or to allow you to likewise Run not in a straight line (which would also impose a -2 (or even -4?) penalty to AC, which the Run feat would not remove). (That last would would thematically map to "transit mode" in one of the wargames we play, which is in that game defined as "you can move as far as you like on the board, but Lichemaster help you if anyone sees you and can take a shot at you.")

[Kayblis]

I agree with Darg's assessment, and reforce the sentiment of "don't make people worse at their job by using the feature". Being flat-footed after doing it is an interesting idea, it makes sense in-game and is a good representation of unbalance, but the biggest point is that it gives you the penalty after the action, which is great. Usually, you can roll your first attack and then decide if you want to commit to a full-attack, so a penalty that applies to all your attacks would mess with that, forcing you to either leave only the first hit unchanged or to rewrite the action and call some hits a miss because of other things you did later. It's better to not mess with the original roll and to give a penalty that's lateral to the action, such as the flat-footed condition.

I like the other movement idea, you give a considerable penalty(FF and -2 AC) in exchange of having a ton of movement. The situations you'd get to use it are somewhat unusual, so it makes sense to have a heavier trade-off than a charge, because it's an extra option. Also lets you chase fleeing enemies without the classical problem of 2 people with the same move speed never being able to hit one another.

[Darg]

Flat-footed might be a little too strong of a penalty for that not-charge action. Much of the benefit is chasing after a fleeing opponent and if it were the penalty it would be suicidal if heading toward a group. Considering the possibility to simply switch to a ranged weapon to assault a running opponent, a simple -2 to AC would be appropriate. Charge gives a bonus and works in conjunction with a lot of other things unlike this new action. This new action's benefits is that you can move through difficult terrain and you are free to move as you wish. So I think it is a balanced trade in that regard.

Flat-footed negates dex bonus, dodge bonus to AC, and you are unable to make AoOs. In this case fighting defensively should be an option as you are stuck with only one attack.

[Aotrs Commander]

Flat-footed might be a little too strong of a penalty for that not-charge action. Much of the benefit is chasing after a fleeing opponent and if it were the penalty it would be suicidal if heading toward a group. Considering the possibility to simply switch to a ranged weapon to assault a running opponent, a simple -2 to AC would be appropriate. Charge gives a bonus and works in conjunction with a lot of other things unlike this new action. This new action's benefits is that you can move through difficult terrain and you are free to move as you wish. So I think it is a balanced trade in that regard.

Flat-footed negates dex bonus, dodge bonus to AC, and you are unable to make AoOs. In this case fighting defensively should be an option as you are stuck with only one attack.

The logic is thus - you're spending the same effort on concentration on movement as running (which makes you flat-footed), because you're moving at double-speed and Doing Other Things, because you're moving fast AND maneuvering AND attacking. (Charging is merely two of those three things.) I don't think a mere -2 AC penalty is sufficient to represent that splitting on concentration. (-2 AC is almost negligable as a penalty past early levels.) I DEFINITELY don't think you should be allowed to do all that and be able to make AoOs or fight defensively (which, granted, isn't likely to be an issue in my games because no-one ever uses that anyway). Especially as this is NOT intended to be something you want to do on a regular basis, it is intended for situations where they is no better option.

(But, I suppose, if you did want to do it a lot, well, that is another credible reason to take the Run feat, as with a minimal change of wording, it could be set to apply to that as well, redcuing it to that -2. Let's face it, the majority of stuff that takes the Run feat is usually animals as a throw-away feat...)

[Darg]

The reason run has such a penalty is because you are basically making up to 4 moves in a line. The fact that your enemies have to make themselves flat-footed to catch you balances out the penalty. This new action is simply 2 moves and a single attack just like a charge. I don't think it should overly penalize you as not being able to build on the action is penalty enough without more homebrewing.

If you really want to penalize it further, I would suggest not allowing the attack to benefit from your strength bonus to damage. If you reduce the attack bonus you might as well have used a ranged weapon from the beginning. Making the character flat footed makes the other character free to do anything that would provoke an AoO or even freely full attack right back in your face before you get the chance to capitalize on the benefit of the action.

[Elkad]

I've played with few houserule versions of allowing full attack mobility, including "just move and take all your attacks"

Settled on this one.

Rapid Advance. As part of a full attack action, move up to half your speed in a straight line, but only before any attacks are made.

No penalties or bonuses, movement provokes as normal.

It's helpful, without destroying the usefulness of charge, extra move actions, spring attack, and similar effects.