Mandela Effect - OOTS changes in script

[Dellis]

Every now and then, rereading the archive, I could swear I read a different sentence, years ago, that now stands slightly different.

For instance, in #831, first two panels, Redcloak says "I'm sorry it had to end like this". "But at least, you brought your handiwork with you".

Now, I could do like Mutius Scaevola and put my hand in the fire to swear that a long time ago it read "At least it spared me the need to do it myself", or something to that effect.

That sentence makes much more sense with the one preceding it --- it HAD to end like this --- , emphasis mine, and also makes sense with Redcloak's character at the time (and still now...): willing to sacrifice a goblin for the perceived greater good of all goblinkind, as he couldn't leave him alive and run the implied risk of Xykon finding out that there was another phylactery, which would have led him to the copy.

Now, of course it might just be my memory playing games on me, but I chose specifically a situation in which
1) I can't see myself imagining such an action by Redcloak at the time
2) Fits perfectly with his characterization
3) The current sentence, "But at least you brought your handiwork with you", seems quite weird in that context.

There have been other instances. For example, I remember reading, in number #31, Vaarsuvius incensed about the mind flayer ignoring him '... a delectable 17 intelligence right before you!" and thinking "wait, so Roy is 18? Kinda high for a fighter".

Other instances in my mind: 'Try gingko bilboa", to Blackwing, instead of "gingko biloba". Other mispellings to that effect.

I'm here, and I don't know if I -am- remembering correctly, and the strips have just been altered (even though the giant said he wasn't going to go back and fix previous strips), which I could see for mispellings, OR my mind is simply playing games with me.

Am I the only one?

[hamishspence]

Every now and then, rereading the archive, I could swear I read a different sentence, years ago, that now stands slightly different.

For instance, in #831, first two panels, Redcloak says "I'm sorry it had to end like this". "But at least, you brought your handiwork with you".

Now, I could do like Mutius Scaevola and put my hand in the fire to swear that a long time ago it read "At least it spared me the need to do it myself", or something to that effect.

I believe you're thinking of this scene:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

"I just thank the Dark One that I didn't need to execute you myself".

[Goblin_Priest]

I believe you're thinking of this scene:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

"I just thank the Dark One that I didn't need to execute you myself".

Yea, this is probably the source of the confusion. Though edits aren't impossible, removing such a line would be a little extreme, more than just adding a word or fixing a typo in an existing speech bubble. Also, since Redcloak has just said that a few strips earlier, him repeating the same thing would have been a little repetitive. By then, we already knew what he intended to do with loose ends.

Edit: Though re-reading this strip, I wonder why he couldn't let the infiltrator live? All he did was get the phylactery for Redcloak, and Redcloak having it wasn't a secret in any way. The smith I understand, since he knows about the fake, but the transmuted infiltrator? What'd he know that was too much?

[Babale]

The point with V, Roy, the Illithid, and the 18 Int is that while V has 18 in Int they have crappy Cha and Wis; Roy has only a moderately high Int, but decent Wis and Cha too.

(Incidentally, which of Roy's stats are bad? He's got great Str and Con, decent mental stats, and we have no reason to think his Dex is bad, just nothing special. Roy has an amazingly high stat line!)

[Goblin_Priest]

The point with V, Roy, the Illithid, and the 18 Int is that while V has 18 in Int they have crappy Cha and Wis; Roy has only a moderately high Int, but decent Wis and Cha too.

(Incidentally, which of Roy's stats are bad? He's got great Str and Con, decent mental stats, and we have no reason to think his Dex is bad, just nothing special. Roy has an amazingly high stat line!)

Roy probably has the same stat array that my modded Pathfinder: Kingmaker hero had. Just a tad under perfection, just to say it isn't perfection. :P

Probably a bunch of 16s and 14s. Without looking at any of the geekery threads to remember his feats or anything like that, I'd probably say:

Between
Str: 15 Dex: 13 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 11 Cha: 11
and
Str: 17 Dex: 15 Con: 17 Int: 16 Wis: 16 Cha: 15

[Dellis]

I believe you're thinking of this scene:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

"I just thank the Dark One that I didn't need to execute you myself".

I now feel a bit stupid.

[hamishspence]

It's easy to misremember - I've done that a few times now and again.

[hroþila]

Edit: Though re-reading this strip, I wonder why he couldn't let the infiltrator live? All he did was get the phylactery for Redcloak, and Redcloak having it wasn't a secret in any way. The smith I understand, since he knows about the fake, but the transmuted infiltrator? What'd he know that was too much?
I think what he knew is that Redcloak had refrained from wiping out the resistance despite knowing where their secret headquarters was because he was waiting for them to steal the phylactery so that he could take it back from them (with a summoned force that he could then dismiss and forget about) and thus have some alone time with it to do the switcheroo (while also scoring some extra points with Xykon to avoid suspicion).

[RatElemental]

This is reminding me about how Andrew Hussie edited in pictures of Snoop Dogg to old updates just to mess with Homestuck fans.

Or at least, that's what people think happened, they might have always been there.

Normally I'd avoid derailing the topic but the issue has been answered and it's a somewhat relevant funny thing that (maybe) happened.

[Ionathus]

I think what he knew is that Redcloak had refrained from wiping out the resistance despite knowing where their secret headquarters was because he was waiting for them to steal the phylactery so that he could take it back from them (with a summoned force that he could then dismiss and forget about) and thus have some alone time with it to do the switcheroo (while also scoring some extra points with Xykon to avoid suspicion).

Hmm, that "waiting for the phylactery" bit actually makes a good bit of sense. I'd always just assumed Redcloak was being (justifiably) paranoid about what information he shared with Xykon. "Need-to-know basis" and all that.

This is another, more complex wrinkle and I love it!

[BaronOfHell]

This is another, more complex wrinkle and I love it!

I as well!

Thanks for the insights hroþila.

[Saint-Just]

Ginkgo bilboa is still there in the comic. Or you want to say that you remember it being written right?

[Grey Watcher]

Other instances in my mind: 'Try gingko bilboa", to Blackwing, instead of "gingko biloba". Other mispellings to that effect.

I seem to remember someone pointing out that both plants are real and that part of the joke is that you think he's asking about something to improve V's memory (of him in particular), but he's actually asking for something to help with... um, male intimacy.

EDIT: I stand corrected!


The point with V, Roy, the Illithid, and the 18 Int is that while V has 18 in Int they have crappy Cha and Wis; Roy has only a moderately high Int, but decent Wis and Cha too.

I always thought the visual metaphors for V and Roy should have been reversed. The whole turkey has more meat (Int alone), but the cheeseburger has a more appealing combination of flavors (good scores in all three mental stats).

[facw]

I now feel a bit stupid.

I don't think there's any need to feel stupid. Especially since it's quite possible that Redcloak would have ended up killing the goldsmith to keep things under wraps as well.

[Goblin_Priest]

I seem to remember someone pointing out that both plants are real and that part of the joke is that you think he's asking about something to improve V's memory (of him in particular), but he's actually asking for something to help with... um, male intimacy.



I always thought the visual metaphors for V and Roy should have been reversed. The whole turkey has more meat (Int alone), but the cheeseburger has a more appealing combination of flavors (good scores in all three mental stats).

Nutrient-poor foods rich in a single "goody" element (typically carbs) are generally described as fast food/junk. Burgers are generally described as fast food/junk food. Burgers tend to be really caloric, overly so for more weight-conscious people.

But yea I could see it working either way.

[Saint-Just]

I seem to remember someone pointing out that both plants are real and that part of the joke is that you think he's asking about something to improve V's memory (of him in particular), but he's actually asking for something to help with... um, male intimacy.


Even before looking up I find it's highly unlikely that botanists would assign two so similar names to different species in the same genus, but it's easy to look up anyway. Biloba is the only extant specimen of the genus Ginkgo, and all others has disappeared from the fossil record millions of years ago so there is no possibility that ancient humans knew some other species that are extinct now.

[Ron Miel]

Ginkgo bilboa is still there in the comic. Or you want to say that you remember it being written right?

I'm guessing the OP looked at the print or PDF version. A number of trifling art and spelling errors were corrected for print.

[Grey Watcher]

Even before looking up I find it's highly unlikely that botanists would assign two so similar names to different species in the same genus, but it's easy to look up anyway. Biloba is the only extant specimen of the genus Ginkgo, and all others has disappeared from the fossil record millions of years ago so there is no possibility that ancient humans knew some other species that are extinct now.

Huh. Not sure where that other thing came from. When I couldn't find it, I just kind of assumed my browser was being overzealous with the autocorrect, but yeah, good chance that wherever I read that basically made it up to begin with. :shrug:

But, while it might not be the case here, I do find confusingly similar names to be more plausible than you seem to, but without hard numbers that's just a subjective impression.

[whitehelm]

Edit: Though re-reading this strip, I wonder why he couldn't let the infiltrator live? All he did was get the phylactery for Redcloak, and Redcloak having it wasn't a secret in any way. The smith I understand, since he knows about the fake, but the transmuted infiltrator? What'd he know that was too much?

If Xykon knew about the spy, he'd be asking Redcloak why he wasn't informed about the resistance base earlier so they could've been wiped out before they had a chance to steal the phylactery. (Redcloak kept it a secret because he planned the whole thing giving him a chance to make the swap, otherwise some random hobgoblin could've given the phylactery straight to Xykon).

[Precure]

Only thing Xykon care about is finding his phylactery and leave that place soon as possible, and he wasn't even there till Jirx called him back. Honestly it seems pretty pointless to kill the spy.

[137beth]

I thought for a long time that the title of Book 2 was "No Cure for Paladin Blues." Then Peelee pointed out to me that it's actually "No Cure for the Paladin Blues."

[Ron Miel]

I take it you don't know the original reference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti38LFY7x1Y), then?

[Rinion]

Ginkgo bilboa is still there in the comic. Or you want to say that you remember it being written right? It's 'ginkgo bilboa' in the online version and 'ginkgo biloba' in the book version.

But I can remember at least one occasion when a misspelling in the strip was corrected online: 'in media res' was changed to 'in medias res' in #551 after someone in the comic's discussion thread pointed out the mistake. I only remember because it was the first time I'd encountered the phrase.

[B. Dandelion]

I know I've definitely forgotten or misremembered a few OOTS details before. It's been a while since my last thorough re-read and so I can't recollect a specific one at the moment, but it's definitely happened.

One OOTS-specific example of the Mandela effect I've observed in other people is the notion of a "goblin prophecy" -- that there was some kind of prediction made about a goblin in a red cloak destroying Azure City, which had been known to the Sapphire Guard and was a factor in their motive for attacking goblin villages. I've seen at least three people make reference to this supposed prophecy as a definitively established thing, which it is NOT. It's not an outlandish idea, but if it is true it's never actually been revealed in the plot thus far. It just seems to arise from a conflation of Durkon's circumstances with Redcloak's.

Another weird thing is that when I mention that multiple people have cited this nonexistent prophecy, I often get pushback from other posters who say they have never seen anybody mention it before. So with that in mind... I'll cite a few of the people I've seen making the assertion. I'm not trying to call out or belittle anyone I quote, I just want to prove that it's come up multiple times.



Yes indeed, and as GDGU illustrates, somewhat, the SG were off dealing with a no-kidding prophecy about how the red cloak would be their doom / end (see previous part of this post on prophecy often going in strange directions)


Even the Sapphire Guard didn't bother to find out much about them and they had the most reason to out of everyone related to the order of the scribble given that there was some prophecy about a goblin with a red cloak destroying Azure City or whatever.


Just a nitpick here. The Saphire Guard didn't embark on near-genocide simply because Goblins are Evil. After all, the attack we see in SoD is hundreds of miles away from Azure City, so you'd think they'd need more of an incentive than that.

And indeed they have one. It's in the form of some prophecy to the effect that a goblin wearing a crimsom cloak will be instrumental in destroying their gate. Attempting to prevent this, they hunt down every goblin they can find who wears such an item.


When I saw the prophecy in Order of the stick, it is similar to prophecy telling sequence in Greek Epic.
E.G- Sapphire Guards attack red cloak's village because they fear that crimson mantled goblin is going to destroy Azure city, according to the prophecy. Result- Their city was captured by the same goblin in mantle cloak.


The paladins didn't understand the significance of the cloak itself. As I recall, they got a prophecy at some point that a goblin in a red cloak would bring ruin to their gate, specifically.

So scratch "at least three" -- it's at least FIVE people I've seen cite a supposed prophecy on this forum alone. It really IS a Mandela effect kind of situation for so many people to come up with the same specific yet wrong memory. I wonder what others there might be? Have I fallen for any of them myself?

[Goblin_Priest]

I know I've definitely forgotten or misremembered a few OOTS details before. It's been a while since my last thorough re-read and so I can't recollect a specific one at the moment, but it's definitely happened.

One OOTS-specific example of the Mandela effect I've observed in other people is the notion of a "goblin prophecy" -- that there was some kind of prediction made about a goblin in a red cloak destroying Azure City, which had been known to the Sapphire Guard and was a factor in their motive for attacking goblin villages. I've seen at least three people make reference to this supposed prophecy as a definitively established thing, which it is NOT. It's not an outlandish idea, but if it is true it's never actually been revealed in the plot thus far. It just seems to arise from a conflation of Durkon's circumstances with Redcloak's.

Another weird thing is that when I mention that multiple people have cited this nonexistent prophecy, I often get pushback from other posters who say they have never seen anybody mention it before. So with that in mind... I'll cite a few of the people I've seen making the assertion. I'm not trying to call out or belittle anyone I quote, I just want to prove that it's come up multiple times.



So scratch "at least three" -- it's at least FIVE people I've seen cite a supposed prophecy on this forum alone. It really IS a Mandela effect kind of situation for so many people to come up with the same specific yet wrong memory. I wonder what others there might be? Have I fallen for any of them myself?

I believe there's a passage somewhere about the paladins being after the crimson mantle, not realizing the crimson mantle itself was the problematic artifact, and thinking they only needed to defeat its bearer. I don't recall where this is spelled out, though.

[ti'esar]

Yeah, I think it's what Goblin Priest is saying - there's a comment about what the Sapphire Guard (and non-goblins in general) do and do not know about the Crimson Mantle that's mutated into there being an outright prophecy. Took me a moment, but I found it. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12521960&postcount=21)

[Potatopeelerkin]

I believe there's a passage somewhere about the paladins being after the crimson mantle, not realizing the crimson mantle itself was the problematic artifact, and thinking they only needed to defeat its bearer. I don't recall where this is spelled out, though.

This is in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, page 117.

I imagine people are coming up with the prophecy explanation because it's the obvious explanation for how they came to know about a red-cloaked goblin cleric before Redcloak was even a threat. The fact that the Azurites are known to use scrying and divine magic to track the mantle, and have a fortune teller (Sangwaan) makes it seem more consistent, too.

Come to think of it, I don't really remember how the Sapphire Guard came to know about the Crimson Mantle myself. Has that been revealed?

[Riftwolf]

Recently I looked through the bonus/guest strips again, and I remembered Elans line as 'Aaah! The horrible stabbing pain of being stabbed!' while in reality the line is 'The blinding, stabbing pain of being stabbed!'. I think my memory's version of the line is punchier.

[hroþila]

Come to think of it, I don't really remember how the Sapphire Guard came to know about the Crimson Mantle myself. Has that been revealed?
I don't think so, but I don't think any particular explanation is needed either. At some point, the Sapphire Guard clashed with (and in fact killed) a previous bearer of the Crimson Mantle. The bearer had followers, and they presumably worked as an organization, with the bearer clearly on top. This would have become obvious to the Sapphire Guard during their campaign.

[Ruck]

Every now and then, rereading the archive, I could swear I read a different sentence, years ago, that now stands slightly different.

Since people have already covered your specific examples... There have been a few edits from web to print that I've noticed, usually typos and such, but I think there's a strip in the first book where a line in the final panel was slightly modified. (I think it's #16, looking at the web version, but I haven't checked my book.)


Edit: Though re-reading this strip, I wonder why he couldn't let the infiltrator live? All he did was get the phylactery for Redcloak, and Redcloak having it wasn't a secret in any way. The smith I understand, since he knows about the fake, but the transmuted infiltrator? What'd he know that was too much?

Loose ends are loose ends.


I think what he knew is that Redcloak had refrained from wiping out the resistance despite knowing where their secret headquarters was because he was waiting for them to steal the phylactery so that he could take it back from them (with a summoned force that he could then dismiss and forget about) and thus have some alone time with it to do the switcheroo (while also scoring some extra points with Xykon to avoid suspicion).


If Xykon knew about the spy, he'd be asking Redcloak why he wasn't informed about the resistance base earlier so they could've been wiped out before they had a chance to steal the phylactery. (Redcloak kept it a secret because he planned the whole thing giving him a chance to make the swap, otherwise some random hobgoblin could've given the phylactery straight to Xykon).

Yeah, that's probably the specific answer. In any case, Redcloak is not taking any chances with anyone who knew anything about his plan. "Stupid risks are just that. Stupid."


EDIT: Wow, no posts in nine hours. Anyway, it is that strip-- in the online version of #16 Roy says "which is kinda cool" and Durkon replies "a lich is binding ghouls?" In the PDF, Roy says "which is cool" and Durkon says "a lich's ghoul?"

[137beth]

I take it you don't know the original reference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti38LFY7x1Y), then?

That's correct, I wasn't familiar with that song.

[Riftwolf]

That's correct, I wasn't familiar with that song.

Seeing as it came out 62 years ago, we'll let you off :b

[Precure]

I never heard of that song either.

[Goblin_Priest]

This is in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, page 117.

I imagine people are coming up with the prophecy explanation because it's the obvious explanation for how they came to know about a red-cloaked goblin cleric before Redcloak was even a threat. The fact that the Azurites are known to use scrying and divine magic to track the mantle, and have a fortune teller (Sangwaan) makes it seem more consistent, too.

Come to think of it, I don't really remember how the Sapphire Guard came to know about the Crimson Mantle myself. Has that been revealed?

Yup, exactly what I was thinking of.

And I'm not sure that information was ever revealed.

[Dellis]

For V's int score, which I referred to in one of the examples, I'm aware of the fact that the Flayer likes Roy better because he's got a nicer spread, but I also remember V saying he had a "delectable 17 INT" and wondering why the author hadn't given him the max score for a wizard.

Now in that line I read 18 INT, and this is another one of my little misrememberings I'm so convinced of I could put a hand into fire to swear they were like that.

But I've been proven wrong in at least one occasion, and the hand still stings, so on reflection perhaps maybe not :p


Ginkgo bilboa is still there in the comic. Or you want to say that you remember it being written right?

No, I remember it being written wrong once upon a time, then it being written right.

Which, since my mind and eyes are perfect and can never be wrong in any circumstance whatsoever, and this is totally not me being sarcastic about myself, and now it is written wrong, must mean:

Son of a brunch, it CHANGED BACK!

[hamishspence]

For V's int score, which I referred to in one of the examples, I'm aware of the fact that the Flayer likes Roy better because he's got a nicer spread, but I also remember V saying he had a "delectable 17 INT" and wondering why the author hadn't given him the max score for a wizard.

Now in that line I read 18 INT, and this is another one of my little misrememberings I'm so convinced of I could put a hand into fire to swear they were like that.

We have reason to believe it was 18 as early as January 2005, at least:



From the illithid strips, we also know for a fact that V has "a delectable 18 Intelligence".

It's possible that The Giant changed it from 17 to 18, but that would surprise me a little.

[Goblin_Priest]

For V's int score, which I referred to in one of the examples, I'm aware of the fact that the Flayer likes Roy better because he's got a nicer spread, but I also remember V saying he had a "delectable 17 INT" and wondering why the author hadn't given him the max score for a wizard.

Now in that line I read 18 INT, and this is another one of my little misrememberings I'm so convinced of I could put a hand into fire to swear they were like that.

But I've been proven wrong in at least one occasion, and the hand still stings, so on reflection perhaps maybe not :p



No, I remember it being written wrong once upon a time, then it being written right.

Which, since my mind and eyes are perfect and can never be wrong in any circumstance whatsoever, and this is totally not me being sarcastic about myself, and now it is written wrong, must mean:

Son of a brunch, it CHANGED BACK!

It's possible it was immediately corrected. I do believe Rich fixes typoes when spotted.

[Yanisa]

For V's int score, which I referred to in one of the examples, I'm aware of the fact that the Flayer likes Roy better because he's got a nicer spread, but I also remember V saying he had a "delectable 17 INT" and wondering why the author hadn't given him the max score for a wizard.

Now in that line I read 18 INT, and this is another one of my little misrememberings I'm so convinced of I could put a hand into fire to swear they were like that.

Interestingly enough a "17" is mentioned a view comics later in #0038 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html). And some ancient scholars used that as basis for Roy's strength score. (Same thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?5758-The-place-for-over-analysis&p=205543&viewfull=1#post205543) as hamishspence quoted.)

[Dellis]

Interestingly enough a "17" is mentioned a view comics later in #0038 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html). And some ancient scholars used that as basis for Roy's strength score. (Same thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?5758-The-place-for-over-analysis&p=205543&viewfull=1#post205543) as hamishspence quoted.)

You mean it is probable that I simply conflated different instances of an ability score being mentioned, since I originally read them in relatively rapid sequence, and my mind fused them in the coming years?

That seems to be what happened at least in the hob smith/gob in disguise situation.

That's an interesting insight on the Mandela effect. People might not be remembering things wrong, at least not simply: they're confusing (in the original sense of the word) different instances of events due to their similarity.

There must be a psychological paper in this somewhere.

[RatElemental]

Interestingly enough a "17" is mentioned a view comics later in #0038 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html). And some ancient scholars used that as basis for Roy's strength score. (Same thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?5758-The-place-for-over-analysis&p=205543&viewfull=1#post205543) as hamishspence quoted.)

That's a weird thing to base it on, seeing as how multiple SRD poisons can knock you from 18 to 0 strength in one dose.

[Rinion]

Recently I looked through the bonus/guest strips again, and I remembered Elans line as 'Aaah! The horrible stabbing pain of being stabbed!' while in reality the line is 'The blinding, stabbing pain of being stabbed!'. I think my memory's version of the line is punchier.
Ah, but the real line is in iambic pentameter. You have to admire Elan's commitment to the drama.

[GrayGriffin]

EDIT: Wow, no posts in nine hours. Anyway, it is that strip-- in the online version of #16 Roy says "which is kinda cool" and Durkon replies "a lich is binding ghouls?" In the PDF, Roy says "which is cool" and Durkon says "a lich's ghoul?"

Huh, I think the web version works better with the "now you're stretching it" punchline, what with being longer and thus requiring more of a stretch. Unless it was changed because you don't "bind" ghouls so it doesn't make sense in DnD canon?

[Ruck]

Huh, I think the web version works better with the "now you're stretching it" punchline, what with being longer and thus requiring more of a stretch. Unless it was changed because you don't "bind" ghouls so it doesn't make sense in DnD canon?

You know, I feel like this came up before and I could swear Rich said he thinks he prefers the original in hindsight, too, but I might just be imagining that because I also prefer it.

[Goblin_Priest]

That's a weird thing to base it on, seeing as how multiple SRD poisons can knock you from 18 to 0 strength in one dose.

Lich Dust and Purple Worm Poison will do 3d6 strength damage over two saves (and a while minute). Dragon Bile will do 3d6 strength damage on a single save.