Tasha's Cauldron preview, including Table of Contents

[jaappleton]

https://www.ign.com/articles/dnd-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-preview-pages-tcoe-jeremy-crawford

[jaappleton]

So uh what happened to the whole psionics section that was supposed to debut in this book? Not really seeing anything in the book I cant live without.

Fighter - Psi Warrior and Rogue - Soulknife are it. That's all.

I believe they're intended to be Psionic style subclasses, and not indicative as to what full Psionics will be in 5e. They've done that before; Mindflayers from the MM have nothing to do with these rules here in Tasha's.

[x3n0n]

So uh what happened to the whole psionics section that was supposed to debut in this book? Not really seeing anything in the book I cant live without.

The known psionic/mind content is split across sections, with no brand-new mechanics:
* Subclasses: Psi Warrior, Soulknife, Aberrant Mind,
* Feats: Telekinetic, Telepathic,
* Mind-flavored spells, and
* Maybe some items? We don't know all of them yet.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Fighter - Psi Warrior and Rogue - Soulknife are it. That's all.

I believe they're intended to be Psionic style subclasses, and not indicative as to what full Psionics will be in 5e. They've done that before; Mindflayers from the MM have nothing to do with these rules here in Tasha's.

I'm a little dismayed that it appears their idea for streamlining the dynamic psi dice was to make them much more limited-use maneuver dice. I'm getting flashbacks to Arcane Archer getting gutted thanks to severe usage restrictions. But maybe I'm wrong and there are things they can do that don't run through these too fast, won't know until I see it. I'm worried, though.

On a more positive note, that's a lot more magic items than I was expecting. That section looks great, lots of neat things I can reward players with.

[Unoriginal]

https://www.ign.com/articles/dnd-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-preview-pages-tcoe-jeremy-crawford

They said there would be new magic items for each class. Anyone has an idea which is for which?

Obviously the Arcand Spellbook is for the Wizard. There are a lot of books on this list, too.

[jaappleton]

They said there would be new magic items for each class. Anyone has an idea which is for which?

Obviously the Arcand Spellbook is for the Wizard. There are a lot of books on this list, too.

Doubtful any books are for Sorcs, we all know they can't read.

[PhantomSoul]

Doubtful any books are for Sorcs, we all know they can't read.

The soother of sucking, which comes with a coupon to a wizard tower's intro program: appease yourself while watching the wizards, and a discount if you want to get the fun toys one day!

[x3n0n]

Fighter - Psi Warrior and Rogue - Soulknife are it. That's all.

I believe they're intended to be Psionic style subclasses, and not indicative as to what full Psionics will be in 5e. They've done that before; Mindflayers from the MM have nothing to do with these rules here in Tasha's.

I am thinking we won't get a psionics "system" in the next year. They did this "push", didn't get a lot of buy-in for a new unifying mechanic, and decided to let it rest for a while. And now that we have this much, I think we will only get more in the same vein in the future: subclasses, feats, spells, and items. (Since they can't easily retrofit a new system to encompass the Tasha's subclasses and feats.)


They said there would be new magic items for each class. Anyone has an idea which is for which?

Obviously the Arcand Spellbook is for the Wizard. There are a lot of books on this list, too.

Someone spoiled something about an Alchemist tool that does lots of different things: that certainly sounds like "All-Purpose Tool". The musical instruments sound Bardic. Some of the books might be Clerical ("Protective Verses"?), and I bet the Devotee's Censer is as well.

[micahaphone]

Squinting at IGN's crappy website, does that say Peace Domain cleric? probably a rename of the love or unity domain?

I'm really glad Way of Mercy is still in there. I know the anime subclass got lots of love but I found the way of mercy more interesting.

I think Order of Scribes wizard is a really dumb concept but I guess they kind of shot themselves in the foot by making wizard subclasses tied to magic schools then putting every possibility in the PHB. Not that I think they should have held back, but theming wise there's not much to go on there. The "Awakened Spellbook" feature makes me think your spellbook will talk with you and be a helpful little friend, like a Dora the Explorer prop.
Being able to switch all your damage types for free (and w/ force, necrotic, or radiant as options) feels like a "hey sorcerers, we'll give you elemental MM, now draconic sorcs just have a feature/feat tax to be a less popular element" paired with "hey wizards, you get to be better than sorcs, again".
Level 10 turning your book buddy into a spectral super familiar feels weird too. This is the subclass that's really good at writing or copying spells. Why does that make you good at elemental manipulation or spectral minion creation?

[Stangler]

Squinting at IGN's crappy website, does that say Peace Domain cleric? probably a rename of the love or unity domain?

I'm really glad Way of Mercy is still in there. I know the anime subclass got lots of love but I found the way of mercy more interesting.

I think Order of Scribes wizard is a really dumb concept but I guess they kind of shot themselves in the foot by making wizard subclasses tied to magic schools then putting every possibility in the PHB. Not that I think they should have held back, but theming wise there's not much to go on there. The "Awakened Spellbook" feature makes me think your spellbook will talk with you and be a helpful little friend, like a Dora the Explorer prop.
Being able to switch all your damage types for free (and w/ force, necrotic, or radiant as options) feels like a "hey sorcerers, we'll give you elemental MM, now draconic sorcs just have a feature/feat tax to be a less popular element" paired with "hey wizards, you get to be better than sorcs, again".
Level 10 turning your book buddy into a spectral super familiar feels weird too. This is the subclass that's really good at writing or copying spells. Why does that make you good at elemental manipulation or spectral minion creation?

I like the RP value of a book to talk to.

I think mechanically I would prefer the cheaper spell additions to treating the spell book like a weird pet. The idea being that the character is less specialized but has a lot of spells in the book. Scrolls are level 10... whatever.

Now I am probably just going to RP the idea that my spellbook has a talking spirit with it just for fun with no in game impact and choose a more interesting school.

[x3n0n]

Squinting at IGN's crappy website, does that say Peace Domain cleric? probably a rename of the love or unity domain?

Yes and yes, from what we've heard.

Basically, if you look at the live UA subclasses on dndbeyond and ignore the Spirits Bard and Undead Warlock, each of those concepts is represented in this book. As usual, the mechanical details have changed, some subclasses more than others.

[micahaphone]

I like the RP value of a book to talk to.

I think mechanically I would prefer the cheaper spell additions to treating the spell book like a weird pet. The idea being that the character is less specialized but has a lot of spells in the book. Scrolls are level 10... whatever.

Now I am probably just going to RP the idea that my spellbook has a talking spirit with it just for fun with no in game impact and choose a more interesting school.

They do have cheaper spell book scribing at level 2 and (in the UA at least) at level 6 can kind of store spells for the future by making custom scrolls that only they can use, so those bits do fit the "most bookish of all the book lovers" theme. the spirit familiar and elemental swaps don't seem to fit the theme.

[jaappleton]

The Scribe ability to change damage types, and the Metamagic to swap a damage type, isn't that big of a deal if your table is using all of Tasha's.

That's because there's a section in the book about customizing spells as your own, and changing their damage types to suit theme. Instead of shooting a reddish, orange sphere from your finger before it explodes overhead as a fireball, you can launch a dark violet ball of crackling energy that explodes into 8d6 necrotic damage.

[micahaphone]

The Scribe ability to change damage types, and the Metamagic to swap a damage type, isn't that big of a deal if your table is using all of Tasha's.

That's because there's a section in the book about customizing spells as your own, and changing their damage types to suit theme. Instead of shooting a reddish, orange sphere from your finger before it explodes overhead as a fireball, you can launch a dark violet ball of crackling energy that explodes into 8d6 necrotic damage.

Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't know if people will use Tasha piecemeal. I feel like it's more likely for a DM to either wholly use Tasha or ban it entirely. If we wholly use tasha then elemental MM is useless and scribe wizard has one less thing going for it.

[Unoriginal]

The Scribe ability to change damage types, and the Metamagic to swap a damage type, isn't that big of a deal if your table is using all of Tasha's.

That's because there's a section in the book about customizing spells as your own, and changing their damage types to suit theme. Instead of shooting a reddish, orange sphere from your finger before it explodes overhead as a fireball, you can launch a dark violet ball of crackling energy that explodes into 8d6 necrotic damage.

How do you customize spells? Do we they count as the new spells you learn per level?

[MaxWilson]

Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I don't know if people will use Tasha piecemeal. I feel like it's more likely for a DM to either wholly use Tasha or ban it entirely. If we wholly use tasha then elemental MM is useless and scribe wizard has one less thing going for it.

I have Tasha's preordered from Amazon but the more I learn about the contents the more I suspect I'm going to ban everything except for maybe the subclasses and spells. Ignoring the whole book is just easier than whitelisting good parts--it's what I did with Ravnica, even though I'm told there are parts of Ravnica that are worthwhile.

[jaappleton]

@Unoriginal Putely guessing on my part but I believe it’d just be as simple as, “My Fireball is actually Necroball” with no changes except to damage type. They MIGHT go as far as “Cold targets Con, Fire and Lightning target Dex, etc” but I question if they’d go that far in their thought process.

@MaxWilson I must admit that if all these leaks are true, I am a bit disappointed. It’s much more “Hey, do whatever” and less “Here’s some tables and guidelines as to our design philosophy and what fits in these parameters, so if it fits in here, it should be solid”

[Sception]

Looks like undeadlock didn't make the cut? That's a darn shame. I thought the ua version, while it needed some work, was pointed in a very promising direction.

Nothing against the genie & squidlock, they sound neat. But it's disappointing to see tasha's come and go and the uninspired undying patron is still squatting uselessly on what would otherwise be such a cool narrative concept.

Nothing against the SCAG writers, mind, it was an early 5e book and nobody could really know how far things could reasonably be pushed. But yeah, undying patron is a dud and has been allowed to stand in the way of cool character concepts for too long. Shame that they skipped this opportunity to correct it.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm pretty down on a lot, but looking forward to the book overall. I'm annoyed at the custom lineages and the fairly simplistic lineage system overall, wish the psi system was better developed, hate the Scribe on principle, think the SCAG cantrip nerf was unnecessary, and really wish the fortune telling bard got in (I have a player that was interested in it for an upcoming CoS game).

But I'm looking forward to most of the other subclasses, really looking forward to the class variants, pretty excited for the magic items, can always use new DM tools, and will like having the Artificer in a book I won't need to let my grubby handed gremlin players manhandle since they'll likely get their own.

[jaappleton]

Looks like undeadlock didn't make the cut? That's a darn shame. I thought the ua version, while it needed some work, was pointed in a very promising direction.

Nothing against the genie & squidlock, they sound neat. But it's disappointing to see tasha's come and go and the uninspired undying patron is still squatting uselessly on what would otherwise be such a cool narrative concept.

Nothing against the SCAG writers, mind, it was an early 5e book and nobody could really know how far things could reasonably be pushed. But yeah, undying patron is a dud and has been allowed to stand in the way of cool character concepts for too long. Shame that they skipped this opportunity to correct it.

Spirits Bard and Undeadlock were released too close to Tasha’s release date that they were never going to be included in Tasha’s.

However, remember that WOTC is first a business. Of course more books are coming! They’ve already confirmed another book set around Ravenloft is coming, and those two subclasses are incredibly thematic for such a book, wouldn’t you agree? :smallwink:

[Waterdeep Merch]

Spirits Bard and Undeadlock were released too close to Tasha’s release date that they were never going to be included in Tasha’s.

However, remember that WOTC is first a business. Of course more books are coming! They’ve already confirmed another book set around Ravenloft is coming, and those two subclasses are incredibly thematic for such a book, wouldn’t you agree? :smallwink:

I don't take it you can poke, prod, and otherwise procure the release position of this particular product? I was planning on doing a perilous push through Barovia once I possess the Beadle & Grimm's palatial Legendary Edition for the profit of my pernicious players.

[Samayu]

* Mind-flavored spells, and

Mmm, mind-flavored spells...

[jaappleton]

I don't take it you can poke, prod, and otherwise procure the release position of this particular product? I was planning on doing a perilous push through Barovia once I possess the Beadle & Grimm's palatial Legendary Edition for the profit of my pernicious players.

Hmm... Strictly a guess, but it’s likely one of the three classic settings that’re coming.

That’s strictly a summation. No inside information on that, just a guess.

As a side note, “perilous push for pernicious players” is a heck of a tongue twister.

[MaxWilson]

@MaxWilson I must admit that if all these leaks are true, I am a bit disappointed. It’s much more “Hey, do whatever” and less “Here’s some tables and guidelines as to our design philosophy and what fits in these parameters, so if it fits in here, it should be solid”

That's too bad.

[jaappleton]

That's too bad.

I do want to say that I haven’t read anything in the book. Just my summation based on what others have said, I don’t have a direct copy or access to one.

Yet.

[micahaphone]

I do want to say that I haven’t read anything in the book. Just my summation based on what others have said, I don’t have a direct copy or access to one.

Yet.

jaapleton, international person of mystery, planning a heist?

[jaappleton]

jaapleton, international person of mystery, planning a heist?

I am indeed working on trying to get on that special list of people who get the books early....

....really tough to do when I don’t have a blog or massive social media presence or following or anything.

Turns out “Yo give me free early access to **** so I can hype up a forum” isn’t the massive selling point you might think it is.

[Foxhound438]

My thoughts:

I liked a good chunk of the subclasses that are appearing here back when they were UA, so that's good. (though my stand astral self better be able to be a boat)

The fixed summons were good across the board. It's maybe not as fun to some people to just get a stat block and be told "do whatever" as it is to go digging through the monster manual for something good, but this takes out the burden of knowing what stat blocks are good for people who want to just summon something and feel powerful, and if you rule that the old conjure X spells are now replaced, you don't have to worry about the old pile of pixies stuff.

Spirit shroud made it in, which was cool back in the UA, but if Paladins get Spirit Guardians like they did from the other one I'm afraid this spell just won't have a good home. Of course, spirit shroud scaled pretty ridiculously for things with multiple attacks, so I guess we'll see if that stays.

Most importantly, finally we have rules for falling onto creatures. I wonder if that will be as much of a disappointing one liner as the knot tying rules in Xanathar's was, or if there'll actually be some interesting ways to make use of plummetting attacks (and thus give birth to a million "Dragoon" builds in a day). If it's just "they also take Xd6 damage.", I'll be pretty sad. I know we've had no lead into this to give us reason to anticipate something good, but I have to hope.

[DracoKnight]

This isn’t aimed at anyone here, I’m just bringing this up because I’ve seen it a lot; I don’t understand why people are so down on the Awakened Spellbook of the Order of Scribes.

It struck me almost immediately of Harry Dresden and Bob the Skull.

If you and your DM get really into RPing it, this is a great story thing.

[jaappleton]

This isn’t aimed at anyone here, I’m just bringing this up because I’ve seen it a lot; I don’t understand why people are so down on the Awakened Spellbook of the Order of Scribes.

It struck me almost immediately of Harry Dresden and Bob the Skull.

If you and your DM get really into RPing it, this is a great story thing.

Hey I know you. :smalltongue:

I’m not down on Scribes per se. But the just seems a bit disjointed to me. Excited to get a look at the new version.

[DracoKnight]

Hey I know you. :smalltongue:

I’m not down on Scribes per se. But the just seems a bit disjointed to me. Excited to get a look at the new version.

Wait, you do? Huh, that’s weird...

Me too. I’m excited to see all of these in their finalized forms. Scribes is gonna be interesting. I’m a little peeved that Wizard can swap elemental types, but the mega magic that allowed Sorcs to do it got cut (unless I missed something?).

[Azuresun]

This isn’t aimed at anyone here, I’m just bringing this up because I’ve seen it a lot; I don’t understand why people are so down on the Awakened Spellbook of the Order of Scribes.

It struck me almost immediately of Harry Dresden and Bob the Skull.

If you and your DM get really into RPing it, this is a great story thing.

"It looks like you're casting a Lightning Bolt. Would you like some help?"

[jaappleton]

"It looks like you're casting a Lightning Bolt. Would you like some help?"

Clippy the Paperclip just tossing out random info as your familiar.

“Youre going to regret this!”
“Would you like me to add the apostrophe?”

[jojosskul]

This isn’t aimed at anyone here, I’m just bringing this up because I’ve seen it a lot; I don’t understand why people are so down on the Awakened Spellbook of the Order of Scribes.

It struck me almost immediately of Harry Dresden and Bob the Skull.

If you and your DM get really into RPing it, this is a great story thing.

I've been playing the UA version, and one thing that has made an interesting twist with the Awakened Spellbook is making it not just a spellbook that you've suddenly giving sentience, but making a spellbook sentient that used to belong to somebody else.

Taking a mentors spell book that you spend your time deciphering and adapting for your use gives a good template for potential personality for your new book friend. It both is and is not your former mentor.

It's one approach, and due to the facts that not all spellbooks are "books" I feel like there's a lot of different approaches that will work well with it. Talking skull covered in runes that you slowly pry magical secrets out of, a staff systematically carved with a series of sigils, etc. I like the subclass because it seems to thematically fit with someone who not only does magic, but actively studies magical theory.

Swapping in damage types to different magical formula, casting ritual spells without having them prepped AND not taking an extra 10 minutes, it just implies someone who actually STUDIES magic to me and has a better understanding of the core workings then the other wizard subclasses.

[DracoKnight]

I've been playing the UA version, and one thing that has made an interesting twist with the Awakened Spellbook is making it not just a spellbook that you've suddenly giving sentience, but making a spellbook sentient that used to belong to somebody else.

Taking a mentors spell book that you spend your time deciphering and adapting for your use gives a good template for potential personality for your new book friend. It both is and is not your former mentor.

It's one approach, and due to the facts that not all spellbooks are "books" I feel like there's a lot of different approaches that will work well with it. Talking skull covered in runes that you slowly pry magical secrets out of... -snip-

I mean, this is literally Bob the Skull, which is why I referenced him.

I definitely agree that it gets more interesting as a feature when you personalize it and put your own spin on it.

[jojosskul]

I mean, this is literally Bob the Skull, which is why I referenced him.

I definitely agree that it gets more interesting as a feature when you personalize it and put your own spin on it.

I have somehow completely missed the boat on Harry Dresden, and now that I know there's a talking skull involved I may have to finally jump in. ::Stares at giant catalog of Harry Dresden books:: Slowly. :smallbiggrin:

[ironkid]

IIRC the unearthed arcana that shown some of the changes we're gonna see included expanded spell lists, including paladins and rangers getting cantrips... does anybody know if that's gonna be in the book?

[x3n0n]

IIRC the unearthed arcana that shown some of the changes we're gonna see included expanded spell lists, including paladins and rangers getting cantrips... does anybody know if that's gonna be in the book?

I believe that the leak included a Ranger-only Fighting Style called "Druidic Warrior". If it matches the UA, you get 2 Druid cantrips that you can change on level-up.
The UA had a corresponding Paladin-only Fighting Style that gave 2 Cleric cantrips.

In addition, the leak (and the pre-leak Fantasy Grounds screenshot) show expanded spell lists for several classes, similar to the UA. (However, the expanded Bard spell list didn't match the UA, from what I saw.)

[jaappleton]

IIRC the unearthed arcana that shown some of the changes we're gonna see included expanded spell lists, including paladins and rangers getting cantrips... does anybody know if that's gonna be in the book?

It was a fighting style that let them get cantrips. Druid cantrips for Rangers, keying off Wisdom, and Cleric cantrips for Paladins but the cantrips leyes off Charisma.

I haven’t heard anything but I’ll see what I can dig up.

EDIT: Reddit leak has the Druidic Warrior fighting style listed as in the book.

[Unoriginal]

Will the Tasha's have a way for Barbarians to pick up a Fighting Style without multiclassing?

[king_steve]

Will the Tasha's have a way for Barbarians to pick up a Fighting Style without multiclassing?

It sounds like the Fighting Style feat is in, at least that's what I've seen from some of the leaks. I'm not sure which Fighting Styles will be eligible for the feat.

[Unoriginal]

It sounds like the Fighting Style feat is in, at least that's what I've seen from some of the leaks. I'm not sure which Fighting Styles will be eligible for the feat.

Thanks.

I'm not really happy with the final version of the Unarmed fighting style, but I have to admit it would be awesome for a Barbarian to have it.

[Dork_Forge]

Having just seen the Monk optional features preview, it seems that the power creep continues for the Ki Empowered strike:

UA: Spend at least one Ki point and you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action

Tasha's: "If you spend 1 Ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn."

So already some creep in letting you whack with a quarterstaff for 1d8+mod rather than the mroe likely 1d4/6 that most Monk players will be getting with unarmed strikes. However you also get to say screw you to the Monk weapon restrictions in the paragraph immediately above the Ki-Fueld strike, meaning that actually you can go to 1d10 with a longsword if you want...

...Oh and it looks like ranged Monk weapons are not only fine but also eligible for this, so why not burn some Ki on a big ranged attack and then follow it up with an arrow/bolt?

[jojosskul]

Having just seen the Monk optional features preview, it seems that the power creep continues for the Ki Empowered strike:

UA: Spend at least one Ki point and you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action

Tasha's: "If you spend 1 Ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn."

So already some creep in letting you whack with a quarterstaff for 1d8+mod rather than the mroe likely 1d4/6 that most Monk players will be getting with unarmed strikes. However you also get to say screw you to the Monk weapon restrictions in the paragraph immediately above the Ki-Fueld strike, meaning that actually you can go to 1d10 with a longsword if you want...

...Oh and it looks like ranged Monk weapons are not only fine but also eligible for this, so why not burn some Ki on a big ranged attack and then follow it up with an arrow/bolt?

I saw the same thing, and honestly I'd think the features were fine (monk isn't exactly overpowered, and at least these can apply to ALL monks) EXCEPT it invalidates a huge portion of Kensai as a subclass. The main thing that made it unique was that it could use weapons other monks couldn't, now any generic monk can do this more flexibly than any pre-Tasha's Kensai.

[Dork_Forge]

I saw the same thing, and honestly I'd think the features were fine (monk isn't exactly overpowered, and at least these can apply to ALL monks) EXCEPT it invalidates a huge portion of Kensai as a subclass. The main thing that made it unique was that it could use weapons other monks couldn't, now any generic monk can do this more flexibly than any pre-Tasha's Kensai.

It heavily steps on the toes of the Kensei that's for sure (though not an entire overlap, the Kensei can use the Longbow and doesn't need to get proficiency from outside the class). Funnily enough I think Kensei may be one of the only subclasses unable to trigger Ki Empowered Strike as well...

[x3n0n]

Having just seen the Monk optional features preview, it seems that the power creep continues for the Ki Empowered strike:

UA: Spend at least one Ki point and you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action

Tasha's: "If you spend 1 Ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn."

So already some creep in letting you whack with a quarterstaff for 1d8+mod rather than the mroe likely 1d4/6 that most Monk players will be getting with unarmed strikes. However you also get to say screw you to the Monk weapon restrictions in the paragraph immediately above the Ki-Fueld strike, meaning that actually you can go to 1d10 with a longsword if you want...

...Oh and it looks like ranged Monk weapons are not only fine but also eligible for this, so why not burn some Ki on a big ranged attack and then follow it up with an arrow/bolt?

For those who want to see the features, they're official and in this article: https://www.polygon.com/2020/11/2/21538090/dungeons-dragons-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-race-monk-art

At lv2, "Dedicated Weapon": after a rest, touch a weapon to make into a monk weapon (until you choose another). It must be simple or martial, not heavy, not special, and you must be proficient with it.

At lv3, "Ki-Fueled Strike" as quoted above.

Agreed that both are buffs. I'm pretty happy about "Dedicated Weapon": light crossbow is nice in tier 1, sling and/or shortbow are fun in tier 2. With additional proficiences, as you said, a d8/d10 versatile or a whip would be nice. I also think that limiting it to one at a time, only changed on rest boundaries, non-heavy (with no exception for longbow), and requiring proficiency helps keep Kensei's niche.
(This does amplify non-feat, non-multiclassing ways to get proficiency with an interesting martial weapon, but I don't see it setting the world on fire.)

You seem more upset about Ki-Fueled Strike than I expected.
For pre-Tasha's subclasses, the only *actions* I see that use ki before tier 4 are subclass features for Elemonk, Way of Shadow, and attack modifiers like Kensei's Deft Strikes; adding a bonus-action attack (even with a shortbow or d10) to casting a spell (which is limited by your ki anyway) seems well within bounds when compared to something like Eldritch Knight, and on flavor for Monk anyway (yet another way to spend your bonus action).
I mean, are we really worried about Elemonk and Shadow being overpowered on the merit of getting an extra bonus action attack a few times per short rest, or Kensei or Way of Mercy getting to upgrade their bonus action attack instead of spending more ki to Flurry?

Edit: half-ninja'ed, refined phrasing

[Joe the Rat]

At lv2, "Dedicated Weapon": after a rest, touch a weapon to make into a monk weapon (until you choose another). It must be simple or martial, not heavy, not special, and you must be proficient with it.
Emphasis mine

More than anything, this looks like a bone for multiclassing (but see below). Bog Standard monk gets to add a missile weapon or the greatclub to the monk weapon list.
A single classed kensei gets to add that on top of their kensei weapons.
A martial-monk multiclass can pick one of their qualifying non-monk weapon options and use it while being awesome.
But there's also some on-theme heritage based benefits: Elf and Dwarf monks... and Hobgoblin monks (ew) can Martial Art their heritage/training weapons.

In short, if you can already use it, now you can use it like a monk, without having to be a Weapon Specialist monk.
You don't get Agile Parry, Always Magic Attacks, or ki-boosted plusses or baby smites. You also can't jut grab any old sword or whatever you come across and use it monk style - it's only that weapon. But you can use your grandfather's battle axe.

[x3n0n]

Emphasis mine

More than anything, this looks like a bone for multiclassing (but see below). Bog Standard monk gets to add a missile weapon or the greatclub to the monk weapon list.
A single classed kensei gets to add that on top of their kensei weapons.
A martial-monk multiclass can pick one of their qualifying non-monk weapon options and use it while being awesome.
But there's also some on-theme heritage based benefits: Elf and Dwarf monks... and Hobgoblin monks (ew) can Martial Art their heritage/training weapons.

In short, if you can already use it, now you can use it like a monk, without having to be a Weapon Specialist monk.
You don't get Agile Parry, Always Magic Attacks, or ki-boosted plusses or baby smites. You also can't jut grab any old sword or whatever you come across and use it monk style - it's only that weapon. But you can use your grandfather's battle axe.

Just here to say I agree with all you said. Standard Monk can either choose a simple ranged weapon or a (non-heavy) martial weapon (that they already have proficiency with) to get monk-weapon scaling, dex-wielding if melee, and potential use with Ki-Fueled Strike (if they have a feature that triggers it).
That's something, but it's not close to being Kensei.

(The obvious martial weapons are d8/d10 versatile of choice, probably longsword to be able to use magic item drops, or whip, which offers a reach option and gets a scaling damage die.)

If that was the only Kensei feature a player wanted, then I'm glad that they can take a subclass that they'll actually enjoy.

Also, I like this fit much better than the UA version; it's both more limited (needs lv2, one at a time, bound to a rest) and less limited (allows two-handed non-heavy bows, doesn't make you get rid of any of the simple weapons). Joe, I like your flavor of it being potentially an heirloom weapon.

Edit: a couple more notes on races/origins and martial weapon proficiencies: I remember that githyanki also have options, and the Tasha's origin/race customizations allow martial-to-martial and armor-to-martial proficiency swaps as well (not sure who else gets added to the list as a result).

[Chaosmancer]

Emphasis mine

More than anything, this looks like a bone for multiclassing (but see below). Bog Standard monk gets to add a missile weapon or the greatclub to the monk weapon list.
A single classed kensei gets to add that on top of their kensei weapons.
A martial-monk multiclass can pick one of their qualifying non-monk weapon options and use it while being awesome.
But there's also some on-theme heritage based benefits: Elf and Dwarf monks... and Hobgoblin monks (ew) can Martial Art their heritage/training weapons.

In short, if you can already use it, now you can use it like a monk, without having to be a Weapon Specialist monk.
You don't get Agile Parry, Always Magic Attacks, or ki-boosted plusses or baby smites. You also can't jut grab any old sword or whatever you come across and use it monk style - it's only that weapon. But you can use your grandfather's battle axe.


Yep, I think most of the intent was to allow for racial weapons to be used as monk weapons by those races, which is just thematically awesome.

[Luccan]

Can't check the link right now, but I'm curious:

So, just to be clear, after at least two separate occasions in which it seems wizards getting free damage replacement was rejected, they went ahead and did it anyway?


Wait, you do? Huh, that’s weird...

Me too. I’m excited to see all of these in their finalized forms. Scribes is gonna be interesting. I’m a little peeved that Wizard can swap elemental types, but the mega magic that allowed Sorcs to do it got cut (unless I missed something?).

And they took it away from Sorcerers even as a metamagics, huh?

If these things are true this book is not endearing me to WotC at the moment.

[x3n0n]

And they took it away from Sorcerers even as a metamagics, huh?

There was a briefly posted leak that included a "Transmuted spell" metamagic that lets you change elemental or poison damage to a different element or poison, so I think it is going to be there.

[Luccan]

There was a briefly posted leak that included a "Transmuted spell" metamagic that lets you change elemental or poison damage to a different element or poison, so I think it is going to be there.

That's good then. Still not thrilled about the wizard thing, but that falls more in line with my expectations

[king_steve]

That's good then. Still not thrilled about the wizard thing, but that falls more in line with my expectations

It sounds like the Order of the Scribe Awakened Spellbook has the added requirement that the damage type you swap to needs to be the same level as the spell slot you used, so that does limit how many options you have (e.g. picking up Chromatic Orb doesn't mean you can swap to nearly any damage type).

[Dork_Forge]

For those who want to see the features, they're official and in this article: https://www.polygon.com/2020/11/2/21538090/dungeons-dragons-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-race-monk-art

At lv2, "Dedicated Weapon": after a rest, touch a weapon to make into a monk weapon (until you choose another). It must be simple or martial, not heavy, not special, and you must be proficient with it.

At lv3, "Ki-Fueled Strike" as quoted above.

Agreed that both are buffs. I'm pretty happy about "Dedicated Weapon": light crossbow is nice in tier 1, sling and/or shortbow are fun in tier 2. With additional proficiences, as you said, a d8/d10 versatile or a whip would be nice. I also think that limiting it to one at a time, only changed on rest boundaries, non-heavy (with no exception for longbow), and requiring proficiency helps keep Kensei's niche.
(This does amplify non-feat, non-multiclassing ways to get proficiency with an interesting martial weapon, but I don't see it setting the world on fire.)

You seem more upset about Ki-Fueled Strike than I expected.
For pre-Tasha's subclasses, the only *actions* I see that use ki before tier 4 are subclass features for Elemonk, Way of Shadow, and attack modifiers like Kensei's Deft Strikes; adding a bonus-action attack (even with a shortbow or d10) to casting a spell (which is limited by your ki anyway) seems well within bounds when compared to something like Eldritch Knight, and on flavor for Monk anyway (yet another way to spend your bonus action).
I mean, are we really worried about Elemonk and Shadow being overpowered on the merit of getting an extra bonus action attack a few times per short rest, or Kensei or Way of Mercy getting to upgrade their bonus action attack instead of spending more ki to Flurry?

Edit: half-ninja'ed, refined phrasing

It erodes the core theme of the Monk as a martial artist (lesser issue to me personally) and steps on the toes of the Kensei to some degree (more of an issue) and is unnecessary creep. The UA allowed an unarmed strike as a bonus, so why change it to a weapon allowing for kiting and not feeding into the rest fo the Monk chassis (high movement speed, Martial Arts)?

As for the subclass abilities the ones you mentioned in addition to the ones you mentioned there's also the Sun Soul that can chuck out AOEs and follow it up with ranged fire now starting at 6th level.

It's not going to break the game in half, but it's the kind of thing that when I read it, it was another thing in these previews/leaks that didn't need to be there and frankly makes no sense to be there either.

[Unoriginal]

It erodes the core theme of the Monk as a martial artist (lesser issue to me personally)

How does that erodes the fact Monks are martial artists?

"Martial artist" does not mean "does not use weapons".


and is unnecessary creep.

I don't think it's power creep, honestly.

[Luccan]

It sounds like the Order of the Scribe Awakened Spellbook has the added requirement that the damage type you swap to needs to be the same level as the spell slot you used, so that does limit how many options you have (e.g. picking up Chromatic Orb doesn't mean you can swap to nearly any damage type).

That's definitely an improvement. IIRC the UA version just let you swap so long as any spell of your preferred damage type was in your book.

[Chaosmancer]

I find myself agreeing with Unoriginal.

Martial Artists can certainly use weapons, and if they have devoted to the study of it there are a lot of weapons they can use.

I'm actually a bit disappointed that the Monk can't use the glaive this way, because that is an iconic image to me.

The Kensei was more than "can use martial weapons" to my mind.

And, the ki spending is... debatable as creep. There are very very few ways to use your action to spend ki, that would not allow you to use your bonus action to attack. And to do things like use the Sun Soul orb then make a ranged attack, while not hard, does require the monk to have made quite a few decisions to get to that point, and I can't say it is more powerful than the monk using flurry of blows.

[x3n0n]

It erodes the core theme of the Monk as a martial artist (lesser issue to me personally) and steps on the toes of the Kensei to some degree (more of an issue) and is unnecessary creep. The UA allowed an unarmed strike as a bonus, so why change it to a weapon allowing for kiting and not feeding into the rest fo the Monk chassis (high movement speed, Martial Arts)?

As for the subclass abilities the ones you mentioned in addition to the ones you mentioned there's also the Sun Soul that can chuck out AOEs and follow it up with ranged fire now starting at 6th level.

It's not going to break the game in half, but it's the kind of thing that when I read it, it was another thing in these previews/leaks that didn't need to be there and frankly makes no sense to be there either.

Having played a Kensei, I wish Ki-Fueled Strike had been around at the time. That would have opened up 3 longbow attacks in a turn (assuming one of the first two was a hit so I could use Deft Strike), helping resolve the "why is my weapon expert making more unarmed strikes than kensei weapon attacks" complaint.

How does skilled use of a ranged or reach weapon *not* match with martial arts skill and high movement speed?

Re: Sun Soul and Elemonk following up ranged AoEs with a ranged attack: yes, and? Now the Monk, co-king of the obligatory bonus action, actually has something useful to do there, and *without* needing to spend yet another precious ki. Not seeing a new problem here. If your opinion is that Monks should suffer for making a ranged attack in the first place, I disagree.

I can empathize with some of Tasha's looking like a bit much, but this particular preview page seems ok to me, giving minor buffs to backfill feel-bad situations for a class chassis that is generally regarded as weak.

[Unoriginal]

At least it will address the Elemental Monk's spending of ki being on the expensive side.

[Amechra]

A drive-by thought on the Kensei:

Kensei are the only Monk subclass that get an extra feature that boosts a successful weapon attack. More importantly, it works with ranged weapons, unlike every other subclass. And, on top of that, it's the only Monk subclass that gets anything that buffs a weapon.

If you build the Kensei as an archer, Ki-Empowered Strikes is a game changer. You can pretty reliably trigger the bonus action bow attack off of either Deft Strike or the leaked feature that lets Monks spend ki to boost attack rolls after the fact, and now Sharpen The Blade doesn't waste your turn if you have to use it. I wouldn't write it off, is all I'm saying.

[Dork_Forge]

How does that erodes the fact Monks are martial artists?

"Martial artist" does not mean "does not use weapons".

No it doesn't, but when people think of the Monk is weapon use what comes to mind, or is it being good at unarmed strikes?


I don't think it's power creep, honestly.

As in you don't think it raises the powerlevel of the Monk or you don't think that it does so in a negative fashion?


I find myself agreeing with Unoriginal.

Martial Artists can certainly use weapons, and if they have devoted to the study of it there are a lot of weapons they can use.

And a Monk devoted to the study of a weapon's use up until this point has been the Kensei, it's the defining part of their identity.


And, the ki spending is... debatable as creep. There are very very few ways to use your action to spend ki, that would not allow you to use your bonus action to attack. And to do things like use the Sun Soul orb then make a ranged attack, while not hard, does require the monk to have made quite a few decisions to get to that point, and I can't say it is more powerful than the monk using flurry of blows.

Decisions like wanting to use an aoe..? Even upcasting Burning Hands isn't a bad choice if you're fighting mooks.


Having played a Kensei, I wish Ki-Fueled Strike had been around at the time. That would have opened up 3 longbow attacks in a turn (assuming one of the first two was a hit so I could use Deft Strike), helping resolve the "why is my weapon expert making more unarmed strikes than kensei weapon attacks" complaint.

A Kensei at range was meant to use Kensei's Shot, now that ability is severely overshadowed and will likely be bumped from 'go to range buff' to 'I'm out of/don't want to spend ki'.


How does skilled use of a ranged or reach weapon *not* match with martial arts skill and high movement speed?

Examples of this being used heavily include the Four Elements and Sun Soul, if it was an unarmed strike then they would be encouraged to use their higher speed to close the gap after their range/aoe attack. How does letting them stay still and shoot a bow match higher movement?


Re: Sun Soul and Elemonk following up ranged AoEs with a ranged attack: yes, and? Now the Monk, co-king of the obligatory bonus action, actually has something useful to do there, and *without* needing to spend yet another precious ki. Not seeing a new problem here. If your opinion is that Monks should suffer for making a ranged attack in the first place, I disagree.

I don't have a problem with the ability as a whole, I liked it in UA. I don't like that they shifted to allowing a Monk weapon attack (whilst simultaneously opening up Monk weapons). I think it's a nice buff, especially for the 4e, but I stand by that it should have been a unarmed strike.


At least it will address the Elemental Monk's spending of ki being on the expensive side.

Yes, that is a highlight.


A drive-by thought on the Kensei:

Kensei are the only Monk subclass that get an extra feature that boosts a successful weapon attack. More importantly, it works with ranged weapons, unlike every other subclass. And, on top of that, it's the only Monk subclass that gets anything that buffs a weapon.

If you build the Kensei as an archer, Ki-Empowered Strikes is a game changer. You can pretty reliably trigger the bonus action bow attack off of either Deft Strike or the leaked feature that lets Monks spend ki to boost attack rolls after the fact, and now Sharpen The Blade doesn't waste your turn if you have to use it. I wouldn't write it off, is all I'm saying.

Sharpen the Blade is a bonus action.

[x3n0n]

A Kensei at range was meant to use Kensei's Shot, now that ability is severely overshadowed and will likely be bumped from 'go to range buff' to 'I'm out of/don't want to spend ki'.



Examples of this being used heavily include the Four Elements and Sun Soul, if it was an unarmed strike then they would be encouraged to use their higher speed to close the gap after their range/aoe attack. How does letting them stay still and shoot a bow match higher movement?



I don't have a problem with the ability as a whole, I liked it in UA. I don't like that they shifted to allowing a Monk weapon attack (whilst simultaneously opening up Monk weapons). I think it's a nice buff, especially for the 4e, but I stand by that it should have been a unarmed strike.

I agree that, given Ki-Fueled Strike, Kensei's Shot would end up being reserved for when I don't want to spend ki. Regardless of the designers' intentions, my felt experience with Kensei's Shot was decidedly underwhelming, so having a way to spend ki to get something more satisfying is a welcome option. Either way, I spent a lot of tiers 1 and 2 rationing my ki, and would expect to continue doing the same, so I think Kensei's Shot will still get used.

Regarding Burning Hands etc, granting a bonus action unarmed strike puts the Monk in a Catch-22 if they haven't taken Mobile as a feat tax. It spends the bonus action, so the Monk can't even come in for the BA unarmed strike and spend more ki to not get hit (via Step of the Wind or Patient Defense). In that world, they potentially don't get to make *any* useful bonus action, as if Ki-Fueled Strike didn't exist.

Also, who said anything about staying still? This feels like a new avenue to kiting, if desired: get to Burning Hands range and do it, ranged attack, retreat. If you think kiting is just a bad thing in general, then that's bad, but I thought you were an advocate for the Monk hitting and running anyway; maybe I had that wrong.

I respect your opinion about the flavor, but don't share it. I think a monk weapon is as flavorful for a Monk as an unarmed strike, and that the possibility of making a "safe" attack (ranged, reach, or Mobile) is the only thing that would give the Monk a real new play option, since it consumes the bonus action.

[Amechra]

Sharpen the Blade is a bonus action.

Teaches me to post at 3 in the morning - I wasn't firing on all cylinders, but dang I had a thought I had to get out of my head. So basically ignore everything I said about Sharpen the Blade.

And while Kensei's Shot has been "nerfed", both Agile Parry and Deft Strike have gotten a buff. Now Agile Parry doesn't necessarily force you into making 2+ unarmed strikes per turn, and Deft Strike has gone from a mini-smite to a mini-smite that turns on your BA attack.

EDIT: Also, if I didn't screw up my math, Unerring Accuracy is way stronger when you have three attacks instead of two.

[MaxWilson]

As in you don't think it raises the powerlevel of the Monk or you don't think that it does so in a negative fashion?

I'm not Unoriginal, but I'd say it's not power creep because it doesn't raise the power level of the game. This is one of the few changes from Tasha's that I'm considering backporting into my 5E games. (Domain spells for sorcerers is another, because I've experimented with it before and had good results.)

Power creep is what happens when new content comes out that resets our expectations for the baseline, to match the power of the new content. Essentially it invalidates old choices and shrinks the gamespace. But if I simply allow any 3rd level+ monk to make an unarmed strike or monk weapon attack as a bonus action when they spend ki during their action, that isn't going to raise the baseline to the point of invalidating existing concepts. What it does do is elegantly bring old concepts approximately up to the level of the existing baseline. Elemental monks, Kensei, and to an extent Shadow Monks will all benefit especially in Tier 1-2, becoming somewhat more competitive with Fighters and a little bit less MAD. Features like Deft Strike (Kensei mini-Smite) that previously were almost completely pointless wastes now become sort of nice.

Fighters are still the kings of archery and swordsmanship (thanks to Action Surge and the level 6 bonus ASI) but now monks can keep up a bit better for as long as their ki holds out, and for those who like to play John Woo-style action heros the Fighter 1/Kensei X Sharpshooter synergy just got a little less MAD (Crossbow Expert is now optional).

[Chaosmancer]

No it doesn't, but when people think of the Monk is weapon use what comes to mind, or is it being good at unarmed strikes?

As in you don't think it raises the powerlevel of the Monk or you don't think that it does so in a negative fashion?

And a Monk devoted to the study of a weapon's use up until this point has been the Kensei, it's the defining part of their identity.

Decisions like wanting to use an aoe..? Even upcasting Burning Hands isn't a bad choice if you're fighting mooks.

A Kensei at range was meant to use Kensei's Shot, now that ability is severely overshadowed and will likely be bumped from 'go to range buff' to 'I'm out of/don't want to spend ki'.

Examples of this being used heavily include the Four Elements and Sun Soul, if it was an unarmed strike then they would be encouraged to use their higher speed to close the gap after their range/aoe attack. How does letting them stay still and shoot a bow match higher movement?

I don't have a problem with the ability as a whole, I liked it in UA. I don't like that they shifted to allowing a Monk weapon attack (whilst simultaneously opening up Monk weapons). I think it's a nice buff, especially for the 4e, but I stand by that it should have been a unarmed strike.

Okay, a few different thoughts swirling around my head, so let me go ahead and start breaking things down.

Firstly, the Way of the Kensei has been seen as the only "weapon monk" but let us remember that monks wielding spears, staves, and shortswords have been incredibly common in the game. The only differences between the Kensei and other monks were getting a few martial weapons and the Longbow. In fact, a Kensei wanting to use a staff or spear lost nothing in terms of abilities (they did go down to a d8 die instead of d10)

So, Kensei are more about what they do with their weapons than only the ability to wield them, in my mind.


Now, is this ability getting rid of Kensei abilities? Not really, but a little.

I'm going to start with the Kensei, but I am going to expand to all monks. So, what abilities does the Kensei have to use Ki?

At 3rd level? Nothing. They have no abilities that cost ki.

6th? Deft Strike, this would allow the Kensie to spend 1 ki to add a d6 (at the time) to an attack, and then with this rule follow up with a bonus action weapon attack. Which... honestly feels about right to me. Because it also takes 1 ki for them to use Flurry of Blows, which is 2d6+mod, so 1d10+1d6+mod feels about even, and lets the Kensei still activate their Agile Parry. It would replace Kensei Shot for an archer, but as an improvement to the ability, which feels right for a 6th levelto 3rd level shift.

11th? Sharpen the Blade is a bonus action, so you can't make a bonus action attack

17? No Ki abilities.

So, for the Kensei this only affects their ability to use Deft Strike, and I feel like it is a net improvement.



So, let us go ahead and just quickly run through all of the Monk Ki abilities and see what qualifies.

Everything from Four Elements Monk... just all of it.

2nd:
Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, and Patient defense do not quality, since they cost a bonus action

UA: If still allowed Quickened Healing (2 ki for 1 MD of healing as an action) and Keen Eye (1 ki, free action, ignore long range) would qualify. This would make monk archers even better, and actually compete with Kensei Shot

3rd:
Deflect missiles: Reaction, won't qualify

Shadow Arts: Does qualify, but most of those spells are not combat spells. Still, interesting potential with dropping a darkness or silence and still making a ranged attack.

Radiant Sun Bolt: Does not qualify, bonus action already.


5th
Stunning Strike: Will Qualify, potentially very powerful, but only works in melee.

6th
Redirect Attack: Reaction, does not qualify

Searing Arc Strike: Does not qualify, the burning hands is a bonus action

11th
Drunkards luck: Can qualify, if you are using it to cancel disadvantage on an attack roll. Potentially powerful to cancel disadvantage and get a bonus attack. However, if you were making a melee attack you could do this anyways for 1d8+mod damage. Boosts Archer monks though who are dealing with long range or unseen targets (doesn't boost them for melee, because they could have still made unarmed attacks for the same)

Searing Sunburst: Does qualify. Since it is an AOE using it in melee is difficult, but this would boost archer monks.


14th
Diamond Soul, reaction, does not qualify


17th
Quivering Palm: Does qualify, but by this point an unarmed strike and a weapon strike are equally powerful and quivering palm does require an unarmed strike


18th
Empty Body: Does qualify and could be interesting to enter into the greater invisibility as an action and still make a single attack





And that is it. All of the Monk Ki abilities in the game. Ignoring anything about 14th level we only really have a few places where this can apply.

All of the Four Elements Monk

Sun Soul monk's level 11 aoe

Shadow Monk's 3rd level Shadow Arts if they are spell casting

Drunken Masters's Level 11 ability to cancel disadvantage

Kensie's Level 6 Deft Strike

And stunning Strike


Of these, potentially the most powerful is the Stunning Strike, which is melee only. And the most powerful archer options would be the Sun Soul (who in using a bow would be losing out on their radiant strikes, making this the archetype most hurt by the ability for all monks to use a bow. I fixed this already in my game by making them a wisdom based attack) and the Shadow Monk, who could drop Silence or Darkness then make a ranged attack.

So, all in all, not a huge change for most of the monk. Two relatively high level combos, one that could be very good for archers, and one that is I think a bigger boon for melee (since Agile PArry is just so frickin good)

[Unoriginal]

Worth noting that this "bonus action attack when you spend a ki point" also gives more opportunities to use Stunning Strikes to the Monk subclasses who had their actions taken by something else than attacking.


I'm not Unoriginal, but I'd say it's not power creep because it doesn't raise the power level of the game. This is one of the few changes from Tasha's that I'm considering backporting into my 5E games. (Domain spells for sorcerers is another, because I've experimented with it before and had good results.)

Power creep is what happens when new content comes out that resets our expectations for the baseline, to match the power of the new content. Essentially it invalidates old choices and shrinks the gamespace. But if I simply allow any 3rd level+ monk to make an unarmed strike or monk weapon attack as a bonus action when they spend ki during their action, that isn't going to raise the baseline to the point of invalidating existing concepts. What it does do is elegantly bring old concepts approximately up to the level of the existing baseline. Elemental monks, Kensei, and to an extent Shadow Monks will all benefit especially in Tier 1-2, becoming somewhat more competitive with Fighters and a little bit less MAD. Features like Deft Strike (Kensei mini-Smite) that previously were almost completely pointless wastes now become sort of nice.

Thank you, this explains it well.

I don't think that it's power creep, because 1) it retroactively gives a boost to all Monks 2) everyone will get a boost with the new Tasha's options.

If they had released a new Monk subclass that did everything the Kensei did, but better, then it'd have been blatant power creep. This? Don't think so.



Fighters are still the kings of archery and swordsmanship

I think we can agree that it's a good thing the Figher is the king of straightforward fighting.

[Amechra]

I have to say, I'm not buying Sun Soul Archers as a thing. Kensei are still probably your go to, since they can get off a Ki-Fueled Strike with a bow pretty reliably after 6th level, and they'd have better range than the Sun Soul Monk while doing so. After 11th level, that might change... but that's more "sunlight nuke followed by an arrow" than "a hail of arrows, sent down the range".

Ninja Archers seem pretty neat, though. It'd definitely be more of a utility build.

[Sigreid]

After the last couple of leaks I've seen, I am more resistant to this book because some of the subclass options seemed at the glance I was able to give them to be so much better than existing options that it would be a real struggle to use any of the earlier options.

[ProsecutorGodot]

After the last couple of leaks I've seen, I am more resistant to this book because some of the subclass options seemed at the glance I was able to give them to be so much better than existing options that it would be a real struggle to use any of the earlier options.

Which subclasses exactly? I'm going to make what I think is a safe assumption and say at least half of these 22 options aren't going to be used all the time over existing options.

From my perspective Barbarian, Paladin, Druid, Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer and Monk have already existing subclasses that are competitive with the options in this book. I'd be hesitant to say that the remaining classes have no viable options either, Ranger actually has very powerful subclasses, Warlock has Hexblade and I personally think that Artificers Artillerist and Battle Smith stay above Armorer.

The only classes I'm unsure about are Rogue and Fighter. Phantom/Soul Knife are pretty good. Rune Knight was a very well received and powerful UA option for Fighter.

Paladin, Druid, Wizard and Bard specifically have incredible options even if you only look at their PHB subclasses. I guess I'm just not seeing this as a large problem, the clear power creep is mostly localized to variant class/race features and a small handful of subclasses.

[Chaosmancer]

If we finally have some options to challenge the massive power gap between the Battlemaster/Eldritch Knight duo and all other fighters, I'd be very happy.

Rogue's I'm less sure on, I've personally found Thieves very powerful, I know Tricksters are top tier, and literally every rogue I've DMd for for the last three years have been swashbucklers, but a fourth option wouldn't go wrong.

[Sigreid]

Which subclasses exactly? I'm going to make what I think is a safe assumption and say at least half of these 22 options aren't going to be used all the time over existing options.

From my perspective Barbarian, Paladin, Druid, Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer and Monk have already existing subclasses that are competitive with the options in this book. I'd be hesitant to say that the remaining classes have no viable options either, Ranger actually has very powerful subclasses, Warlock has Hexblade and I personally think that Artificers Artillerist and Battle Smith stay above Armorer.

The only classes I'm unsure about are Rogue and Fighter. Phantom/Soul Knife are pretty good. Rune Knight was a very well received and powerful UA option for Fighter.

Paladin, Druid, Wizard and Bard specifically have incredible options even if you only look at their PHB subclasses. I guess I'm just not seeing this as a large problem, the clear power creep is mostly localized to variant class/race features and a small handful of subclasses.

Sorry, the thread that had the screen shots got pulled down really quick a few days ago and all I've got to work with is my impression of what I saw.

[x3n0n]

Sorry, the thread that had the screen shots got pulled down really quick a few days ago and all I've got to work with is my impression of what I saw.

FWIW, the only *leaked* subclasses that look to me like they may have created a new top "tier" within their class are the Sorcerers: Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul. They're being actively discussed here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?621407-Tasha-s-new-Sorcerer-sub-classes-have-a-bonus-spell-list-but-is-that-a-good-thing

Other than that, most of them seem to me to be within spitting distance of the "good Xanathar's subclass" tier, in either direction.

(Note that some subclasses haven't yet been leaked in detail, and, as always, YMMV.)

[Sigreid]

FWIW, the only *leaked* subclasses that look to me like they may have created a new top "tier" within their class are the Sorcerers: Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul. They're being actively discussed here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?621407-Tasha-s-new-Sorcerer-sub-classes-have-a-bonus-spell-list-but-is-that-a-good-thing

Other than that, most of them seem to me to be within spitting distance of the "good Xanathar's subclass" tier, in either direction.

(Note that some subclasses haven't yet been leaked in detail, and, as always, YMMV.)

Yeah, I'm just at the point where I can't see myself buying without seeing it first. I could flip through it in a store and completely change my read on it.

[Foxhound438]

The biggest implication of the new ki strike is probably that you can make an extra attack with a strong magic weapon by using stunning strike... Seems like all upside there, but I guess the lesson is to not give monks Flametongues if you don't want them to have the attack count of a fighter with it.

Speaking of magic weapons, that's kind of the big benefit of dedicated weapon - if all that ever drops in your games are longswords, then you can at least use them (if you take a feat or multiclass for proficiency).

I don't plan builds around magic items, but it's nice to have at least enough flexibility to use magic items when they do come into the game.

[Unoriginal]

I get the impression that the "weapon you are proficient with" part of the Monk ability is meant to make the racial weapon procifiencies more relevant (especially since the Tasha's let you swap weapon proficiency).


Dwarf Monk with battleaxe is a great visual, IMO.

[KorvinStarmast]

Dwarf Monk with battleaxe is a great visual, IMO. So is an elf monk with a long sword. :smallcool:

[Waterdeep Merch]

Anyone know if Slasher still works more or less the same? Because a paladin with Spirit Shroud and Slasher is a horror movie villain, crippling your average enemy down to 10 feet of movement, bleeding out beyond the help of their friends, stalked by a warrior surrounded by the souls of the dead.

Awesome.

EDIT: Maybe go Ancients pact with an unseelie theme? Just for Misty Step. You're magical Michael Meyers.

[Chaosmancer]

Anyone know if Slasher still works more or less the same? Because a paladin with Spirit Shroud and Slasher is a horror movie villain, crippling your average enemy down to 10 feet of movement, bleeding out beyond the help of their friends, stalked by a warrior surrounded by the souls of the dead.

Awesome.

EDIT: Maybe go Ancients pact with an unseelie theme? Just for Misty Step. You're magical Michael Meyers.

Oh that is some sweet, sweet imagery.

[MaxWilson]

Anyone know if Slasher still works more or less the same? Because a paladin with Spirit Shroud and Slasher is a horror movie villain, crippling your average enemy down to 10 feet of movement, bleeding out beyond the help of their friends, stalked by a warrior surrounded by the souls of the dead.

Heh. "Horror movie villain" is how I've always pictured Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6+, or Goblin Shadow Monk. Picking off the weaklings one by one every time they get separated. Make it a Changeling Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6 with the Skulker feat and now you've got the next-best thing to The Thing (1982).

[Waterdeep Merch]

Heh. "Horror movie villain" is how I've always pictured Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6+, or Goblin Shadow Monk. Picking off the weaklings one by one every time they get separated. Make it a Changeling Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6 with the Skulker feat and now you've got the next-best thing to The Thing (1982).

Either of those could also make great use of Slasher too if it still has that -10 feet thing. A rogue doing it with a whip (after finding yourself proficiency somewhere, of course) could be devastating.

Speaking of that and Spirit Shroud, a Bladesinger at 6 could then turn around and hit you with Ray of Frost for a full -30 feet of movement, enough to completely deny most creatures.

[MaxWilson]

Either of those could also make great use of Slasher too if it still has that -10 feet thing. A rogue doing it with a whip (after finding yourself proficiency somewhere, of course) could be devastating.

Speaking of that and Spirit Shroud, a Bladesinger at 6 could then turn around and hit you with Ray of Frost for a full -30 feet of movement, enough to completely deny most creatures.

Slasher seems like a poor investment in this case. Between Stunning Strike and monk bonus movement/Shadow Step, you've already got the victim at a huge movement disadvantage.

Without Mobile feat or Crossbow Expert, Ray of Frost + Slasher is tricky (have to worry about ranged disadvantage in melee). If you really want to stop enemies in their tracks so badly, just cast Web, or animate a few zombies and have them grapple. Horror movie villains would totally do either one of those things.

[x3n0n]

Official Spirit Shroud and Mind Sliver: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/dungeons-dragons-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-has-some-beautiful-interior-art/1100-6484090/

I think the only thing I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere is that Spirit Shroud does your choice of radiant, necrotic, or cold.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Slasher seems like a poor investment in this case. Between Stunning Strike and monk bonus movement/Shadow Step, you've already got the victim at a huge movement disadvantage.
I agree with monks, unless they're really trying hard to reserve their ki for something and need a cheap always-on method of control for it. I can't think of any off the top of my head that isn't already a fairly weak monk build (looking at you yet again, four elements).

It adds a nice tool to a rogue's arsenal, though, provided they pick up whips somehow.

Without Mobile feat or Crossbow Expert, Ray of Frost + Slasher is tricky (have to worry about ranged disadvantage in melee).

If you really want to stop enemies in their tracks so badly, just cast Web, or animate a few zombies and have them grapple. Horror movie villains would totally do either one of those things.

Or done with a whip, that would be my intention if I wanted this on a bladesinger. Unlike BB or GFB, you won't have a problem doing this from reach (Spirit Shroud works on any attacks within 10 feet, Slasher only cares that you're using a slashing weapon), which in turn allows you to safely abuse Ray of Frost. Their other spells are going to be better versus any hordes though, certainly, and this one has several conditions that must be met to reach peak efficiency; starting from outside an enemy's reach, the enemy can't have too much speed or reach, and you need to reliably hit them twice each round.

A bladesinger will often be better served by just having the feat and relying on a simple hit + Ray of Frost if they like the idea of corralling without spending resources, since a level 3 slot could be better utilized by them for control under most circumstances.

[Unoriginal]

Barbarian with Slasher feat would work for a Slasher Movie Villain, no?

[Waterdeep Merch]

Barbarian with Slasher feat would work for a Slasher Movie Villain, no?

It's a huge boon to your classic axe barbarian, for sure. Stalking their prey, filled with bloodlust, and you just. Can't. Run.

[MaxWilson]

Official Spirit Shroud and Mind Sliver: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/dungeons-dragons-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-has-some-beautiful-interior-art/1100-6484090/

I think the only thing I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere is that Spirit Shroud does your choice of radiant, necrotic, or cold.

Whelp, Spirit Shroud VII adds 3d8 to every Jim's Magic Missile for 2d4+3d8 (18.5) per Missile, times 7 for 7 Jim's Magic Missile V, so apparently Jim's Magic Missile will be not-awful in games that use Tasha's. (Just make sure you play a halfling or have advantage.)



Or done with a whip, that would be my intention if I wanted this on a bladesinger. Unlike BB or GFB, you won't have a problem doing this from reach (Spirit Shroud works on any attacks within 10 feet, Slasher only cares that you're using a slashing weapon), which in turn allows you to safely abuse Ray of Frost.

Good call! Whip simplifies this scenario dramatically.

A warlock dip for Agonizing Lance of Lethargy would also go very well here, since it gets bonus damage from Spirit Shroud.

[Amechra]

I can't remember - do Warlocks get Spirit Shroud? That could be a fun upgrade for Hex on a Bladelock. I'm thinking Bladelocks because Eldritch Blast users really want more range when they do their thing.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, in UA Spirit Shroud was available to warlocks, and presumably will be in Tasha's too. 2d8 per hit (Spirit Shroud V) is the new 1d6 per hit (Hex) but many warlocks will probably still prefer to spend concentration on other things.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Good call! Whip simplifies this scenario dramatically.

A warlock dip for Agonizing Lance of Lethargy would also go very well here, since it gets bonus damage from Spirit Shroud.

Ooh, I didn't consider how a warlock might use Spirit Shroud beyond the typical melee hexblade. It could get real nasty on any warlock willing to get within 10 of their target. Mix in the typical Repelling Blast for safety and you can pretty much solo any melee combatant without serious speed or teleports.

EDIT: Repelling might only be so useful here, more for keeping other combatants from joining. You'll probably want high AC and Crossbow Expert to really make the most of this. So hexblade again after all.

[MaxWilson]

Ooh, I didn't consider how a warlock might use Spirit Shroud beyond the typical melee hexblade. It could get real nasty on any warlock willing to get within 10 of their target. Mix in the typical Repelling Blast for safety and you can pretty much solo any melee combatant without serious speed or teleports.

EDIT: Repelling might only be so useful here, more for keeping other combatants from joining. You'll probably want high AC and Crossbow Expert to really make the most of this. So hexblade again after all.

You can do Slashing + Repelling + Lethary with Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2, if you don't care about the Agonizing bonus damage. And having two chances at landing your Lethargy makes this more reliable than relying on Ray of Frost.

(But I still think the Web or zombie grappling route is arguably better, depending.)

[Waterdeep Merch]

You can do Slashing + Repelling + Lethary with Bladesinger 6/Warlock 2, if you don't care about the Agonizing bonus damage. And having two chances at landing your Lethargy makes this more reliable than relying on Ray of Frost.

(But I still think the Web or zombie grappling route is arguably better, depending.)
It does have an advantage in not messing with your own team's movement, which can be good if you've got other melee fighters. It also combos unbelievably well if you've got a cleric willing to blast Spirit Guardians at the same time. No movement for Team Monster, free range for your allies.

[cutlery]

Yes, in UA Spirit Shroud was available to warlocks, and presumably will be in Tasha's too. 2d8 per hit (Spirit Shroud V) is the new 1d6 per hit (Hex) but many warlocks will probably still prefer to spend concentration on other things.

A real shame about that SS nerf.

But I suppose it is still the preferred choice for a warlock who wants to use their pact weapon rather than a convoluted dual wield shadow blade application.

[MaxWilson]

It does have an advantage in not messing with your own team's movement, which can be good if you've got other melee fighters. It also combos unbelievably well if you've got a cleric willing to blast Spirit Guardians at the same time. No movement for Team Monster, free range for your allies.

Off topic: Web is concentration so you can drop it instantly if you need to free an ally from an unlucky failure. Web is useless at worst, it's never actually a hindrance.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Off topic: Web is concentration so you can drop it instantly if you need to free an ally from an unlucky failure. Web is useless at worst, it's never actually a hindrance.

Oh, no disagreement there, Web's a fantastic spell. I just think Spirit Shroud does have a useful niche for bladesingers when used in close quarters with melee allies. It's also rather interesting if you both compound the negatives you can throw on the enemy and get other party members to use similar movement reducers to fully control a fight.

Imagine a whip bladesinger, a Lance of Lethargy hexblade, a cleric, and a glaive paladin, everyone with Slasher, post-9. In any fight where everyone but the cleric turns on Spirit Shroud while the cleric uses Spirit Guardians, you can reduce an entire crowd of enemies to practically no movement while they're surrounded by a party that likes it up close and personal. This feels like it needs one more player that can somehow seriously abuse this setup, but I'm blanking at the moment.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, no disagreement there, Web's a fantastic spell. I just think Spirit Shroud does have a useful niche for bladesingers when used in close quarters with melee allies. It's also rather interesting if you both compound the negatives you can throw on the enemy and get other party members to use similar movement reducers to fully control a fight.

Imagine a whip bladesinger, a Lance of Lethargy hexblade, a cleric, and a glaive paladin, everyone with Slasher, post-9. In any fight where everyone but the cleric turns on Spirit Shroud while the cleric uses Spirit Guardians, you can reduce an entire crowd of enemies to practically no movement while they're surrounded by a party that likes it up close and personal. This feels like it needs one more player that can somehow seriously abuse this setup, but I'm blanking at the moment.

The effects don't stack so any monster with 40'+ movement won't drop to zero, so it's a lot of eggs in one basket.

[Foxhound438]

Official Spirit Shroud and Mind Sliver: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/dungeons-dragons-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-has-some-beautiful-interior-art/1100-6484090/

I think the only thing I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere is that Spirit Shroud does your choice of radiant, necrotic, or cold.

Also notable is that they halved the scaling, only 1d8 for every 2 slots above 3rd, rather than every level. Probably necessary, since it's otherwise just better Holy Weapon that paladins can pick up way earlier.

[MaxWilson]

Also notable is that they halved the scaling, only 1d8 for every 2 slots above 3rd, rather than every level. Probably necessary, since it's otherwise just better Holy Weapon that paladins can pick up way earlier.

Also necessary if you want to prevent 70d8+20d4 (370, times hit rate) HP damage from coming out of Spirit Shroud IX + Jim's Magic Missile VIII. Over twice that against a paralyzed target. (Similar shenanigans with Eldritch Blast, etc.) It was way out of line with prior art.

[Foxhound438]

Also necessary if you want to prevent 70d8+20d4 (370, times hit rate) HP damage from coming out of Spirit Shroud IX + Jim's Magic Missile VIII. Over twice that against a paralyzed target. (Similar shenanigans with Eldritch Blast, etc.) It was way out of line with prior art.

In all fairness, that's to one target, and half of that probably misses against a target that's worth spending your only two highest spell slots against, and you have to be within ten feet of the target. Meteor swarm does about 120 to four huge areas, with at least some damage guaranteed against anything that isn't a Giant Skeleton or other evasive monster, and you get to keep your 8th level slot for later. It becomes a big mathematical problem when you're shooting zillions of projectiles every single turn though, of course.


Different topic, have we seen the verbiage of the fighting style feat yet? (forgive me if it's been discussed above...) I'd like to see if you can pick up 2wf on a pure paladin. Not the strongest build in the world by far, but it would be a breath of fresh air from all the quarterstaff spinning that I'm used to doing on paladins. It'd be nice to have a good, consistent bonus action use without being tied to polearms.

[MaxWilson]

In all fairness, that's to one target, and half of that probably misses against a target that's worth spending your only two highest spell slots against, and you have to be within ten feet of the target. Meteor swarm does about 120 to four huge areas, with at least some damage guaranteed against anything that isn't a Giant Skeleton or other evasive monster, and you get to keep your 8th level slot for later. It becomes a big mathematical problem when you're shooting zillions of projectiles every single turn though, of course.

Your last sentence is key.

Don't get me wrong, I don't love nova damage in the first place, and even Spirit Shroud v1 + Jim's Magic Missile is less broken than Simulacrum or Wish (Planar Binding) is over time, but cranking out 49d8+14d4 (255, times hit rate) from even fifth-level slots even after the big nova is gone is definitely going to make the party Fighter unhappy, much less the party Assassin. It wasn't a well-thought-out spell in its original form.

The revised version is still not super great (tying damage to the game jargon idea of a "hit" instead of the gameplay notion of damaging the target leads to weird anomalies such as Magic Magic not benefiting from Spirit Shroud even though Jim's Magic Missile does, or net attacks that do d8 damage on a hit) but at least it matches other spells already in 5E like Hex, so it doesn't make the design any worse than before.

BTW, Bladesingers who use Tasha's rules definitely out to pick up net proficiency to use as part of their Attack + Cantrip action. A little Warlock to exploit the advantage from net restraint wouldn't hurt either. (Just saying that hurts my brain and is a good reason not to use Tasha's at my table.)

[x3n0n]

Different topic, have we seen the verbiage of the fighting style feat yet?

Not that I've heard. The UA version let you take any Fighter-eligible fighting style (so Two-Weapon Fighting would be eligible).

Leaked Fighter fighting styles:
* Blind fighting (also Ranger): you have blindsight with range 10ft, including (non-hidden) invisible creatures
* Interception: when an ally within 5ft (not self) is hit, react to reduce dmg by 1d10+PB
* Thrown weapons (also Ranger): can draw and throw in the same action, +2 dmg on a hit
* Unarmed: 1d6 unarmed strikes, 1d8 if not wielding anything; free d4 dmg to anyone grappled at start of your turn
* Superior Technique: Martial Adept

Ranger-only:
* Druidic Warrior: 2 druid cantrips, can swap at level-up

No confirmation regarding which of the above are "native" for paladins. UA had Blessed Warrior for them: 2 cleric cantrips, Cha casting