Optimizing the new Bladesinger

[CMCC]

The new bladesinger level 6 ability is awesome. It’s the thing I’m most excited about with Tasha’s. We’ve had a day or two to consider the potential uses, so I think it’s time we start thinking of ways to optimize this thing.

The first things that come to mind are PAM and XBE. With a spear or hand crossbow you can take the attack action, take an attack, either booming blade or Toll of the dead (or potentially eldritch blast), then bonus action attack again. Add in sharpshooter damage and that is solid damage.

They’re are also quality synergies with the mobile feat and new telekinetic feat to allow for “free” disengages.

What are some builds that come to mind with this one?!

EDIT: NEW FEATURES

1. No more elf restriction
2. Lvl 6 extra attack also includes the ability to sub 1 attack with a cantrip (exact wording: “You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”)
3. # of songs was changed to PB per LONG rest.

[RogueJK]

Might this actually be a use for the nigh-useless True Strike (gasp!), when combined with Elven Accuracy, for True Strike + Triple-Advantaged Attack? Moving True Strike from "worthless" to "occasionally situationally useful".

Could be occasionally handy with some Arcane Trickster Rogue levels, as a way to generate Advantage for Sneak Attack when you otherwise wouldn't have it...

I'm thinking AT 3/BS X, or BS 6/AT X.


Also potentially useful to increase a Bladesinger's frontline staying power, for Attack + Blade Ward (+ Bonus Action Attack, if PAM or 2WF).

[CMCC]

Blade Ward definitely gets a lot better

[Gignere]

Might this actually be a use for the nigh-useless True Strike (gasp!), when combined with Elven Accuracy, for True Strike + Triple-Advantaged Attack? Moving True Strike from "worthless" to "occasionally situationally useful".

Could be occasionally handy with some Arcane Trickster Rogue levels, as a way to generate Advantage for Sneak Attack when you otherwise wouldn't have it...

I'm thinking AT 3/BS X, or BS 6/AT X.


Also potentially useful to increase a Bladesinger's frontline staying power, for Attack + Blade Ward (+ Bonus Action Attack, if PAM or 2WF).

Unfortunately true strike is still useless because the advantage only comes on your next turn. Maybe after you killed a creature with your first hit and you decide to cast true strike so on your next turn you’ll have advantage. But since Shadowblade is a spell there is no need for true strike to get advantage.

BS 6 / AT x did become quite a bit stronger because of blade ward and it stacks with uncanny dodge for 1/4 of the damage.

Or you can attack see if sneak attack lands, if yes cantrip like toll the dead. If your first attack misses you can try and get sneak attack again.

[CMCC]

True strike sucks again haha

[LudicSavant]

Might this actually be a use for the nigh-useless True Strike

Nope!

True Strike doesn't even take effect until your next turn.

[CMCC]

Nope!

True Strike doesn't even take effect until your next turn.

Was it broken in past additions? Why did they make it so entirely useless?

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Wait, is there a "new bladesinger" besides the one from SCAG? Can you explain the changes?

[CMCC]

Wait, is there a "new bladesinger" besides the one from SCAG? Can you explain the changes?

Primary changes that we know of are
1. No more elf restriction
2. Lvl 6 extra attack also includes the ability to sub 1 attack with a cantrip - which is huge IMO and very exciting from a play and optimization standpoint.
3. # of songs was changed to PB per LONG rest.

[JackalTornMoons]

Was it broken in past additions? Why did they make it so entirely useless?

It used to give +20 to-hit/ignore any miss chance due to concealment on your next attack.

[LudicSavant]

Was it broken in past additions?

Nah, it was just good.


Why did they make it so entirely useless?

Someone failed a math check?

[RogueJK]

Nope!

True Strike doesn't even take effect until your next turn.


Unfortunately true strike is still useless because the advantage only comes on your next turn.

Ah.. Then nope, it's still useless.

I guess I had it in my mind that it was "until your next turn, the next attack gets Advantage", not "on your next turn".

(Just shows how much I don't even pay attention to that cantrip. :smalltongue:)


[quote]BS 6 / AT x did become quite a bit stronger because of blade ward and it stacks with uncanny dodge for 1/4 of the damage.

Or you can attack see if sneak attack lands, if yes cantrip like toll the dead. If your first attack misses you can try and get sneak attack again.

I dig it. Further incentivizes an AT taking more than just 2 levels in Bladesinger.

[RogueJK]

It used to give +20 to-hit/ignore any miss chance due to concealment on your next attack.

And it was a 1st level spell.

[Merudo]

2. Lvl 6 extra attack also includes the ability to sub 1 attack with a cantrip - which is huge IMO and very exciting from a play and optimization standpoint.


Bladesinger is now arguably better at fighting than an Eldritch Knight.

Bladesinger can Booming Blade + attack at level 6 without using a bonus action. Meanwhile the Eldritch Knight can only do Booming Blade + attack at level 7, and it uses up a bonus action.

[Hael]

So the thing that is broken here isn’t the extra attack. It’s actually spirit shroud. If you upcast it with an 8th lvl slot you have 4d8 modifier. Couple that with racial EA, simalcrum casting haste/Shroud and you wishing Quiver (or whatever combo) Together with SS feat and foresight, hexblade curse +EB + agonizing blast feat (from new eldritch master feat) and your dpr is nutty with +10/-5

So it’s not worth getting EK or gloomstalker lvls.. just get 1lvl of Hexblade and 2 lvls of fighter and the rest bladesinger and you have the best arcane archer in the game by a factor of two or three.

(The build would focus on cha and dex instead of int, so you’re pretty MAD and weak at spell dc but u have access to medium plate and a shield when u arent bladesinging and just focus on buffs and utility spells)

[Willie the Duck]

Was it broken in past additions? Why did they make it so entirely useless?

My take is that it came about early in the design process, where they predicted a genuine use that did not materialize.
In 3e, there were many spells that required an attack roll to land on a target that were quite good. Disintegrate being one, but also some others like the ones that stopped creatures from flying away, teleporting around, or dropping their Spell Resistance by 10 whole points (IIRC). Spending a 1st level spell slot (the cost for the spell at that time) and two rounds to land the spell might very well have been worthwhile. This scenario just doesn't really come up in 5e (maybe if you only have one arrow of ____ slaying or the like) but they never updated TS into something useful after that state of affairs materialized.

[CMCC]

Bladesinger is now arguably better at fighting than an Eldritch Knight.

Bladesinger can Booming Blade + attack at level 6 without using a bonus action. Meanwhile the Eldritch Knight can only do Booming Blade + attack at level 8, and it uses up a bonus action.

They get war magic at lvl 7. I’m ok with that being worse than the bladesinger’s extra attack at 6. The EK gets another attack at 11 and eventually a fourth and can use shadow blade to really maximize those extra attacks.

It makes complete sense that the bladesinger can merge attacking and spellcasting better than any other class.


So the thing that is broken here isn’t the extra attack. It’s actually spirit shroud. If you upcast it with an 8th lvl slot you have 4d8 modifier. Couple that with racial EA, simalcrum casting haste/Shroud and you wishing Quiver (or whatever combo) Together with SS feat and foresight, hexblade curse +EB + agonizing blast feat (from new eldritch master feat) and your dpr is nutty with +10/-5

So it’s not worth getting EK or gloomstalker lvls.. just get 1lvl of Hexblade and 2 lvls of fighter and the rest bladesinger and you have the best arcane archer in the game by a factor of two or three.

(The build would focus on cha and dex instead of int, so you’re pretty MAD and weak at spell dc but u have access to medium plate and a shield when u arent bladesinging and just focus on buffs and utility spells)

You’d need 2 levels of hexblade, you can’t wear medium armor and bladesinger, and SS is still in UA, right?

[Hael]

1 lvl of Hexblade. Get agonizing blast via the eldritch adept (sp) feat that is UA but will be published in Tashas.

The bladesinging feat is incompatible with medium armor and a shield and I believe a 2h range weapon, but otoh your int would be low anyway so it’s not important to the build. If you had the str stats u could ignore it and wear heavy plate from the fighter (and the con save). Since you don’t medium is fine.. alternatively wear light armor and put the shield on/off and use the proficiency/LR bladesinging.

What matters here is maxing EB with Spirit shroud (it’s published in Tashas with 1d8 every 2 lvls). That’s (1d10 +11 +4d8 )*4, *2 with the simalcrum with advantage and elven accuracy.. and it can give you a haste, so with eg a hand Xbox and SS/Xbe you have an attack, a bonus attack from xbe and a haste attack. That’s (1d6 +4d8 + dex + proficiency + 10) *3
And u have archery style.

[MaxWilson]

So the thing that is broken here isn’t the extra attack. It’s actually spirit shroud. If you upcast it with an 8th lvl slot you have 4d8 modifier. Couple that with racial EA, simalcrum casting haste/Shroud and you wishing Quiver (or whatever combo) Together with SS feat and foresight, hexblade curse +EB + agonizing blast feat (from new eldritch master feat) and your dpr is nutty with +10/-5

So it’s not worth getting EK or gloomstalker lvls.. just get 1lvl of Hexblade and 2 lvls of fighter and the rest bladesinger and you have the best arcane archer in the game by a factor of two or three.

(The build would focus on cha and dex instead of int, so you’re pretty MAD and weak at spell dc but u have access to medium plate and a shield when u arent bladesinging and just focus on buffs and utility spells)

Am I missing something? It looks like you're spending concentration on

(1) Haste (from Simulacrum),
(2) Spirit Shroud (from self),
(3) Swift Quiver (also from self???)

How is that possible?

[Hael]

I meant shroud and (haste or quiver). Honestly unimportant, it’s shroud that fundamentally matters.

Bladesinger isn’t actually crucial here either. You could say use a Chronugist, where you can give the mote to the familiar and get extra concentrations, essentially giving yourself the haste and breaking even relative to the singer (allowing you to instead use quiver and save a feat tax from XBE).

Anyway, at this lvl of powergaming the details don’t really matter.

[LudicSavant]

So the thing that is broken here isn’t the extra attack. It’s actually spirit shroud. If you upcast it with an 8th lvl slot you have 4d8 modifier. Couple that with racial EA, simalcrum casting haste/Shroud and you wishing Quiver (or whatever combo) Together with SS feat and foresight, hexblade curse +EB + agonizing blast feat (from new eldritch master feat) and your dpr is nutty with +10/-5

So it’s not worth getting EK or gloomstalker lvls.. just get 1lvl of Hexblade and 2 lvls of fighter and the rest bladesinger and you have the best arcane archer in the game by a factor of two or three.

(The build would focus on cha and dex instead of int, so you’re pretty MAD and weak at spell dc but u have access to medium plate and a shield when u arent bladesinging and just focus on buffs and utility spells)

Where can we find the info on Spirit Shroud?

[Hael]

I believe it was in the leaked Reddit post and possibly one of the pics.

From what I understand it is unchanged from UA version except that instead of the phrase

‘When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the extra damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd.’

It is now 1d8 for every two lvls.
Range is still 10 I think.

[Catullus64]

Primary changes that we know of are
1. No more elf restriction
2. Lvl 6 extra attack also includes the ability to sub 1 attack with a cantrip - which is huge IMO and very exciting from a play and optimization standpoint.
3. # of songs was changed to PB per LONG rest.

1. Boo!

2. Exciting. Might actually incentivize me into stuff like Shocking Grasp, or other niche attack cantrips.

3. What is it with the recent mania for low-level subclass features that scale their # of uses with Proficiency Bonus rather than ability modifiers and class level? Do they think people aren't multiclass dipping enough? The most recent batch of UA subclasses have been full of this, and I don't like it.

[MaxWilson]

I meant shroud and (haste or quiver). Honestly unimportant, it’s shroud that fundamentally matters.

Bladesinger isn’t actually crucial here either. You could say use a Chronugist, where you can give the mote to the familiar and get extra concentrations, essentially giving yourself the haste and breaking even relative to the singer (allowing you to instead use quiver and save a feat tax from XBE).

Anyway, at this lvl of powergaming the details don’t really matter.

I believe Swift Quiver is a self-buff, and so is Spirit Shroud (as I remember it from UA anyway), so it has to be Shroud + Haste from Simulacrum. But if Spirit Shroud VIII is only weapon damage+4d8 of damage instead of +6d8 like in UA, then it's not fundamentally different from Shadow Blade (which gives you 5d8 damage total out of a 7th level slot or higher). Is this really a game changer?


What matters here is maxing EB with Spirit shroud (it’s published in Tashas with 1d8 every 2 lvls). That’s (1d10 +11 +4d8 )*4, *2 with the simalcrum with advantage and elven accuracy.. and it can give you a haste, so with eg a hand Xbox and SS/Xbe you have an attack, a bonus attack from xbe and a haste attack. That’s (1d6 +4d8 + dex + proficiency + 10) *3
And u have archery style.

If it's in Tasha's as 3rd level for 1d8, +1d8 for every two levels, don't you need a 9th level slot to get +4d8? And even then, (d6+4d8+Dex+Prof+10)*3 is only 97.5 damage (times hit rate), which requires three bonus actions (Spirit Shroud, Hexblade's Curse, Crossbow Expert) and an 8th or 9th level spell slot plus your concentration to achieve. That doesn't seem excessive. An Fighter 11/Hexblade 1 (or a Simulacrum of one) would slightly better damage using the same 3 rounds but only a 1st level spell slot: (3.5[hand crossbow] + 10 [Sharpshooter -5 penalty] + 4 [Hexblade's curse with Prof +4] + 3.5 [Hex] + 5 [Dex]) * 4 (104).

Spirit Shroud was broken when it was +d8 per spell level, but at +d8 per two levels it seems like a fairly normal spell buff. Good but not broken.

[Hael]

Yea you are right that it must be 9th lvl for 4d8. I’m actually not sure about wishing a self buff onto another character, a priori it doesn’t seem that unreasonable for wish to grant a 5th lvl selfbuff to an ally...

Shadowblade wouldn’t work with EB.. the thing I’m mostly banking on is the scaling of the number of EB attacks.. the ranged Xbox attacks are like cherries on top.

Just so we are clear, I’m casting a cantrip(eldritch blast) +singer Xbow attack + either (haste attack+ BA XBE) or BA (2 quiver)

First turn simalcrum casts wish, and surges +BA curse. I ba shroud, attack +surge.

[MaxWilson]

Yea you are right that it must be 9th lvl for 4d8. I’m actually not sure about wishing a self buff onto another character, a priori it doesn’t seem that unreasonable for wish to grant a 5th lvl selfbuff to an ally...

Shadowblade wouldn’t work with EB.. the thing I’m mostly banking on is the scaling of the number of EB attacks.. the ranged Xbox attacks are like cherries on top.

Just so we are clear, I’m casting a cantrip(eldritch blast) +singer Xbow attack + either (haste attack+ BA XBE) or BA (2 quiver)

First turn simalcrum casts wish, and surges +BA curse. I ba shroud, attack +surge.

Ooooooh. Okay, I didn't get the cantrip angle. Yeah, that's much better than the Fighter can do attacking with a crossbow.

[bendking]

The trouble with Agonizing Blast is that it scales with CHA, so the Eldritch Blast angle becomes slightly less appealing.

Nevertheless, you can take V.Human Magic Initiate for Eldritch Blast to supplement your regular attacks.
I wouldn't take Crossbow Expert, though, since your bonus action is already taken by both Bladesong and Spirit Shroud.

[cutlery]

A pure bladesinger with shadowblade upcast (stopping at 5th level; but it would be more if they used a 7th level slot or 9th level slot) and trading one attack for either BB or GFB would have single target, non-rider damage that keeps pace with or surpasses an eldritch knight upcasting shadow blade (when 3rd level slots are available).

With or without advantage from Shadow Blade, obviously, as they are both using it.

They also outpace a GWM EK fighter (but not necessarily a GWM+PAM fighter); with or without advantage (on shadow blade); across the range of reasonable target ACs.

Granted, that's two bonus actions to set up (one for shadow blade, one for bladesong) and they won't have the nova potential of the fighter, but sustained damage isn't that bad at all. They can't outdamage a GWM battlemaster using maneuver dice smartly while they still have them; but they can outlast them if the rest schedule allows.

If neither use shadow blade, the bladesinger edges ahead of Extra attack (2) from level 14 on (though this still requires bladesong).


So; whatever you come up with would have to be markedly better than the bladesinger already is at level 14 to be worth it.

(4d8+10)*2+2d8 is a bunch for easily accessible damage with a reasonable way to gain advantage.

[bendking]

A pure bladesinger with shadowblade upcast (stopping at 5th level; but it would be more if they used a 7th level slot or 9th level slot) and trading one attack for either BB or GFB would have single target, non-rider damage that keeps pace with or surpasses an eldritch knight upcasting shadow blade (when 3rd level slots are available).

With or without advantage from Shadow Blade, obviously, as they are both using it.

They also outpace a GWM EK fighter (but not necessarily a GWM+PAM fighter); with or without advantage (on shadow blade); across the range of reasonable target ACs.

Granted, that's two bonus actions to set up (one for shadow blade, one for bladesong) and they won't have the nova potential of the fighter, but sustained damage isn't that bad at all. They can't outdamage a GWM battlemaster using maneuver dice smartly while they still have them; but they can outlast them if the rest schedule allows.

If neither use shadow blade, the bladesinger edges ahead of Extra attack (2) from level 14 on (though this still requires bladesong).


So; whatever you come up with would have to be markedly better than the bladesinger already is at level 14 to be worth it.

(4d8+10)*2+2d8 is a bunch for easily accessible damage with a reasonable way to gain advantage.

My calculations show different results.
The new Bladesinger does not match Eldritch Knight's DPR with Shadow Blade, although he is alarmingly close, and possibly surpasses it if the rider triggers.
Here are the numbers, both builds have Elven Accuracy, and I did not include the rider trigger, the '/' delineates normal versus advantage DPR. BS casts at 5th level, EK at 3rd.

Level 17
Eldritch Knight: 72 / 89
Bladesinger: 61 / 76

Level 11
Eldritch Knight: 37/51
Bladesinger: 29/45

Note: I favored boosting INT over DEX for the level 11 comparison since I expect that's what any reasonable Wizard would do. If he favors DEX he reaches 1 DPR lower than the EK.
Cast at 7th/8th level, the Bladesinger comes very close but still doesn't surpass. And of course, EK has Action Surge and is a lot tankier.
Still, Bladesinger having close melee DPR to a dedicated melee class is somewhat worrying.

How did you calculate your DPR, if I may ask?
I used LudicSavant's DPR Calculator (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14WlZE_UKwn3Vhv4i8ewVOc-f2-A7tMW_VRum_p3YNHQ/edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116004031142298573395).

[Gignere]

My calculations show different results.
The new Bladesinger does not match Eldritch Knight's DPR with Shadow Blade, although he is alarmingly close, and possibly surpasses it if the rider triggers.
Here are the numbers, both builds have Elven Accuracy, and I did not include the rider trigger, the '/' delineates normal versus advantage DPR. BS casts at 5th level, EK at 3rd.

Level 17
Eldritch Knight: 72 / 89
Bladesinger: 61 / 76

Level 11
Eldritch Knight: 37/51
Bladesinger: 29/45

Note: I favored boosting INT over DEX for the level 11 comparison since I expect that's what any reasonable Wizard would do. If he favors DEX he reaches 1 DPR lower than the EK.
Cast at 7th/8th level, the Bladesinger comes very close but still doesn't surpass. And of course, EK has Action Surge and is a lot tankier.
Still, Bladesinger having close melee DPR to a dedicated melee class is somewhat worrying.

How did you calculate your DPR, if I may ask?
I used LudicSavant's DPR Calculator (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14WlZE_UKwn3Vhv4i8ewVOc-f2-A7tMW_VRum_p3YNHQ/edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116004031142298573395).

Although one can argue that there are way more important stuff a BS can concentrate on than SB. It’s a much bigger opportunity costs for the BS to match DPR with EK. Also did your EK calculation factor in dueling?

[cutlery]

How did you calculate your DPR, if I may ask?


My own formulas; and I haven't accounted for crit damage bonus (irrelevant between the two without feats, as they can both gain advantage at the same times, but possibly not irrelevant if the EK takes elven accuracy). Advantage accuracy adjusted with asymptotic limits (that is, accuracy can't increase above .95, and when considering GWM, it can't go below .05). Crits slightly favor the eldritch knight, as a larger proportion of their damage can be increased by them, but this difference is slight.

A BS would boost both int and dex to 20 by 12th or, if necessary depending on race, 16th; so accuracy is the same.




A bladesinger can manage, against AC 18:
Base accuracy .65 at 14th and .7 at 17th

(dpr with BB/GFB replacing one of the attacks)

level adv/noadv
14th: 57 / 42
17th: 63.3 / 49



Advantage dpr at 14th is: ((4.5*4)+5+5)*2*(1-(1-.65)^2) +(4.5*2)*(1-(1-.65)^2)

(SB5 +dex + int) *2 * .65 accuracy w/ advantage (.8775) + BB/GFB damage * .65 accuracy with advantage (.8775).

This is only mean damage, and it won't be a clean normal distribution because the BB/GFB damage is technically conditional on a hit for the attack declared. The two attacks are independent events, though, and the chance of BB/GFB damage application is the same as the accuracy rate.


An eldritch knight (who can only upcast to level 3 shadow blade)
(Assuming 20 str or dex, without duelling), using Extra Attack (2) (which outpaces War Magic by a wide margin when using Shadow Blade)

14th: 48.7 / 36.1
17th: 50.5 / 38.9

EK DPR with SB3 at 14th is:

((4.5*3)+5)*3*(1-(1-.65)^2)

3-die Shadow Blade plus dex (or str) swung three times, times advantage accuracy (.8775).

Because I'm not accounting for crits here, if the EK happens to have GWM (my preference), they will on occasion have bonus action attacks from it; that might be a 26.5% , so that might add
.265*.8775*18.5+5; plus the added 13.5 from the original crit; but, like I said, this is feat dependent. It roughs out to 8.6 damage for the EK, and crits rough out to an extra 4.16 damage for the BS; the BS has a lead of well more than 3-4 points here, so I'm ok skipping it for napkin math.


Dueling can help close the gap: but their AC will lag behind the AC of the bladesinger in that case; and their DPR without shadowblade suffers if they go for a dex build (a STR build can fall back on GWM when low on resources; and not having GWM costs them the decent chance at a bonus action swing from crits/kills).

W/ Dueling:

14th: 54 / 40
17th: 56 / 43


A flametongue will put the EK ahead, but that's table specific.

[bendking]

Although one can argue that there are way more important stuff a BS can concentrate on than SB. It’s a much bigger opportunity costs for the BS to match DPR with EK. Also did your EK calculation factor in dueling?

Yes, I did factor it in.
And I would agree that BS has much better things to concentrate on, although it might come in handy if there's a boss with Legendary Resistance that needs taking down with pure damage.

[bendking]

-snip-

First off, I do prefer Dueling to Defense. Second of all, I just realized I was comparing DPR at level 20, not 17. My bad! Thank you for correcting me.
You're actually right that at level 17 BS has higher DPR than EK. It looks like BS takes the lead at level 14 and loses it at 20. However, EK has seemingly the lead all throughout levels 1-13 (I didn't check every single level).

[cutlery]

First off, I do prefer Dueling to Defense. Second of all, I just realized I was comparing DPR at level 20, not 17. My bad! Thank you for correcting me.
You're actually right that at level 17 BS has higher DPR than EK. It looks like BS takes the lead at level 14 and loses it at 20. However, EK has seemingly the lead all throughout levels 1-13 (I didn't check every single level).

I think the BS has an early lead at 6; though a greatsword and/or GWM make it muddier. At 6 the BS can cast SB at levels 2 or 3 and can take two attacks (or one attack + a SCAGtrip).

They might be tied at 7 (though the BS more often has a bonus action free), though the BS can cast SB 3, the EK only SB2. The BS gets another bump at 9, when they can cast SB5; the EK takes the lead at 11, and then loses it again at 14.

I don't think the BS is the clear winner, as they have some setup; I do think a strength EK puts on a better showing than a dex EK when conserving resources. The EK is also better able to use things like mark/hex, should one be so inclined (access via feats), though that damage gap is pretty minimal even at 11+.

A bladesinger can dual wield reasonably well when using shadow blade; and gain +int to their offhand at least; not as chunky as a free bonus action swing because of GWM, but not bad: 1d6+5 (+int from song of victory, no +dex without a fighting style). If they choose to cast spells they have more interesting things to do with bonus actions (crown of stars at 13th; no concentration, either). The EK can do this too but probably only manages 1d6+0; I'd use a shield instead, unless they're planning on swapping to a greatweapon if/when concentration drops.


The TCoE bladesinger puts out real damage; they aren't on top, but they are real contenders now.

[Mr Adventurer]

So in terms of cool multiclass (not pure optimisation), is it worth sinking 6 levels into Wizard for that Bladesinger feature for an Eldritch Knight?

You double up on Extra Attack, pushing your Extra Attack (2) back to 17th level...

[Gignere]

I think the BS has an early lead at 6; though a greatsword and/or GWM make it muddier. At 6 the BS can cast SB at levels 2 or 3 and can take two attacks (or one attack + a SCAGtrip).

They might be tied at 7 (though the BS more often has a bonus action free), though the BS can cast SB 3, the EK only SB2. The BS gets another bump at 9, when they can cast SB5; the EK takes the lead at 11, and then loses it again at 14.

I don't think the BS is the clear winner, as they have some setup; I do think a strength EK puts on a better showing than a dex EK when conserving resources. The EK is also better able to use things like mark/hex, should one be so inclined (access via feats), though that damage gap is pretty minimal even at 11+.

A bladesinger can dual wield reasonably well when using shadow blade; and gain +int to their offhand at least; not as chunky as a free bonus action swing because of GWM, but not bad: 1d6+5 (+int from song of victory, no +dex without a fighting style). If they choose to cast spells they have more interesting things to do with bonus actions (crown of stars at 13th; no concentration, either). The EK can do this too but probably only manages 1d6+0; I'd use a shield instead, unless they're planning on swapping to a greatweapon if/when concentration drops.


The TCoE bladesinger puts out real damage; they aren't on top, but they are real contenders now.

Unfortunately EK’s doesn’t get SB at level 7. Unless your DM rules you can exchange your level 3 restrictionless spell for SB. Otherwise it’s level 8 before the EK can pick up SB.

[cutlery]

Unfortunately EK’s doesn’t get SB at level 7. Unless your DM rules you can exchange your level 3 restrictionless spell for SB. Otherwise it’s level 8 before the EK can pick up SB.

The rules don't say they can't trade their free spell at 7; but it doesn't matter for this comparison because the bladesinger is already casting SB3.

[bendking]

The TCoE bladesinger puts out real damage; they aren't on top, but they are real contenders now.
Seems like it. I would still prefer an EK to a Bladesinger as a permanent frontliner, and I would still usually prefer concentrating on something other than SB as a Bladesinger more often than not, but Bladesingers being able to compete with EK's damage when they do rotate to the frontlines is undoubtedly powerful. And again, let's not forget Action Surge which tips the DPR squarely to the EK's court over an entire encounter (unless it's absurdly long).

[Mr Adventurer]

Unless your DM rules you can exchange your level 3 restrictionless spell for SB.

That's the actual rule:

"Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic."

[Gignere]

That's the actual rule:

"Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic."

My bad must have misremembered don’t remember seeing the 3rd level spell there. Anyway I think an AT/BS combo with BS of 6 definitely out DPRs a pure AT. With smoother damage (more reliably landing sneak attacks as you have two opportunities instead of one) and more spells, spells slots.

With the ability to swap attack for cantrip you can become super tanky with Blade ward + uncanny dodge. Hard to justify not multiclassing to BS after level 3 or 4 in AT now with Tasha’s changes.

[cutlery]

Seems like it. I would still prefer an EK to a Bladesinger as a permanent frontliner, and I would still usually prefer concentrating on something other than SB as a Bladesinger more often than not, but Bladesingers being able to compete with EK's damage when they do rotate to the frontlines is undoubtedly powerful. And again, let's not forget Action Surge which tips the DPR squarely to the EK's court over an entire encounter (unless it's absurdly long).

Yep, the EK has the advantage on durability (song of defense helps), and action surge is a big, big deal. Even at levels where the bladesinger has the lead it would take many rounds for them to catch up to the EK; and if they go in planning to maximize damage they won't have bladesong up until round - indeed, they won't even be putting out their maximum damage until round 2 (need a BA for both shadow blade and for bladesong to gain the song of victory +int damage).

It does mean the EK can't sleep on damage, and in some cases a less than optimized EK might get trounced by a bladesinger.

When not using shadow blade (or, specifically, concentration), particularly, a dex EK might lag rather badly in both damage and armor class

(~19ac assuming medium armor master, 21 with a shield - the BS can eventually manage 22 or 23 if using mage armor). The EK has better at-will AC, though - the bladesinger only has 4 uses of bladesong per LR at 11.

With similar accuracies, 3d8+15 is a tad bit less than 2d8+10+2d8 (their at-wills at 11).

If building a bladeslinger planning to melee most of the time, I'd max dex before int; especially now with the more limited uses of bladesong.



Anyway I think an AT/BS combo with BS of 6 definitely out DPRs a pure AT.


It was close before, with the slightest edge in favor of the pure AT at some level splits.

But now? With cantrip scaling? No contest. 6 BS/ AT X will be the best damage between the two for sure.

[bendking]

My bad must have misremembered don’t remember seeing the 3rd level spell there. Anyway I think an AT/BS combo with BS of 6 definitely out DPRs a pure AT. With smoother damage (more reliably landing sneak attacks as you have two opportunities instead of one) and more spells, spells slots.

With the ability to swap attack for cantrip you can become super tanky with Blade ward + uncanny dodge. Hard to justify not multiclassing to BS after level 3 or 4 in AT now with Tasha’s changes.
It does, I've done the math. Pure AT is almost objectively inferior now, and it was already mostly worse than the BS 6 MC. However, it takes until you get the Extra Attack from BS 6 until you out DPR a pure AT. I've done a build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24762152&postcount=665)on this exact combo, by the way, which is going to get buffed by Tasha's now, so I'm a happy camper.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[TheMango55]

This isn't a character I would play outside of a level 19+ one shot, because it takes until the high teens to come online, but it's a nice theory craft.

Bladesinger 6, Eldritch Knight 12, Hexblade 2 (This assumes the War Magic bonus action attack from Eldritch Knight is satisfied by the cantrip cast as part of the attack action by Bladesinger, if not I'd probably replace EK with Battlemaster)
Half Drow (for free darkness, or just take normal half elf and take the darkness spell as a wizard spell)
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13(+1), Int 12 (+1), Wis 10, Cha 15 (+2)
ASIs:
Elven Accuracy (+1 Cha)
+2 Cha
Sharpshooter
That's really all the feats you need, for the last two maybe Resilent Wis and +1 Wis and +1 Int? For slightly better wizard spellcasting and better saves. Or if you want more hit points +2 Con and Tough. I considered +2 dex and medium armor master but that's way too much to give up for +1ac. You could also take Crossbow expert and spell sniper if you want to be able to attack within 5 feet of an enemy as well as from super long range.
Invocations = Devil's sight and Agonizing Blast
Ranged fighting style

So assuming you've got a battle that looks like it might take a few turns, turn 1 you cast hexblade's curse on the toughest looking enemy, cast darkness on your longbow or your helmet or something, and run away, at least 15 feet from the rest of your party so that you don't blind them also.

Second turn, you can eldritch blast, two bow shots, action surge, eldritch blast, two bow shots, and a bonus action bow shot with war magic for good measure.
Thats 8 beams of 1d10 + 11, and 5 arrows of 1d8 + 21
All of them with triple advantage and a crit range of 19-20. Even if the enemy you are fighting has blindsight or truesight it may be possible to get out of that range with the long ranges of a longbow and eldritch blast to still have advantage on your attacks.

EDIT: That's really just for maximizing one round damage, more realistically you would probably want to action surge on your first turn to get your 4 eldritch blasts and 2 sharpshooter shots.

[Gignere]

It does, I've done the math. Pure AT is almost objectively inferior now, and it was already mostly worse than the BS 6 MC. However, it takes until you get the Extra Attack from BS 6 until you out DPR a pure AT. I've done a build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24762152&postcount=665)on this exact combo, by the way, which is going to get buffed by Tasha's now, so I'm a happy camper.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Playing an AT now and planning to go BS even before Tasha’s changes going to see if I can convince DM to let me use the Tasha’s BS now. Yeah my main reason to dip BS originally was to get rituals, shield and absorb elements. Now I’m definitely going for more than a small dip and reconsidering cantrips plan too. As blade ward is suddenly so much more attractive now.

[cutlery]

Playing an AT now and planning to go BS even before Tasha’s changes going to see if I can convince DM to let me use the Tasha’s BS now. Yeah my main reason to dip BS originally was to get rituals, shield and absorb elements. Now I’m definitely going for more than a small dip and reconsidering cantrips plan too. As blade ward is suddenly so much more attractive now.

BS is a great dip/MC for AT - I'd have wanted to go 6 levels for upcast shadow blade and two attacks before, but now you don't even lose out on at-will damage; though your at-will damage progression will pause while you're taking the first few wizard levels.

If you happened to start as a wizard (with criminal background, say, for early lockpicking), it's fantastic.

[Gignere]

BS is a great dip/MC for AT - I'd have wanted to go 6 levels for upcast shadow blade and two attacks before, but now you don't even lose out on at-will damage; though your at-will damage progression will pause while you're taking the first few wizard levels.

If you happened to start as a wizard (with criminal background, say, for early lockpicking), it's fantastic.

Yes DPR progression is definitely less smooth but added damage from BB/GFB and earlier upcasting of SB will help to some extent, than a massive jump at level 6 BS.

[Dork_Forge]

Under this Bladesinger, couldn't you 1) BB/GFB 2)standard attack 3) TWF BA attack?

And if the fighting style feat remains (and becomes a half feat) I'm not really sure how a Bladesinger isn't just outpacing most martials at that point...

What a ridiculous and unnecessary change.

[Gignere]

Under this Bladesinger, couldn't you 1) BB/GFB 2)standard attack 3) TWF BA attack?

And if the fighting style feat remains (and becomes a half feat) I'm not really sure how a Bladesinger isn't just outpacing most martials at that point...

What a ridiculous and unnecessary change.

Yes but the TWF attack is going to be weak. Probably better off just using it for something else like commanding undeads or a tiny construct.

[cutlery]

Yes but the TWF attack is going to be weak. Probably better off just using it for something else like commanding undeads or a tiny construct.

It would average 5.5 damage at level 14; (.65*(3.5+5)) which isn't nothing; it's about what the GWM EK would get from crit-caused bonus attacks; and a fair sight better than the EK's TWF bonus attack unless they took TWF - in which case they'd have the same damage; with a feat they could use a longsword/rapier and get that to 6.175

The thing about the 5.5 damage for the Bladesinger is they need nothing to apply it - only a shortsword in their other hand after casting shadow blade. No fighting style or feats required.

[Gignere]

It would average 5.5 damage at level 14; (.65*(3.5+5)) which isn't nothing; it's about what the GWM EK would get from crit-caused bonus attacks; and a fair sight better than the EK's TWF bonus attack unless they took TWF - in which case they'd have the same damage; with a feat they could use a longsword/rapier and get that to 6.175

The thing about the 5.5 damage for the Bladesinger is they need nothing to apply it - only a shortsword in their other hand after casting shadow blade. No fighting style or feats required.

But it doesn’t even come into play until round 3, since the BS will need Bladesong followed by Shadowblade, then finally on round 3 they have a free bonus action.

If this is about adding DPR without Bladesong it would only add a couple of points of DPR while taking up your free casting hand.

[cutlery]

But it doesn’t even come into play until round 3, since the BS will need Bladesong followed by Shadowblade, then finally on round 3 they have a free bonus action.

If this is about adding DPR without Bladesong it would only add a couple of points of DPR while taking up your free casting hand.

Sure; it isn't likely to matter in short fights; but for those rare longer ones they will have an easier time of catching up to an EK if they use this (and they eventually will, it's only a matter of rounds) - assuming they haven't chosen to just bend reality instead. On round 3 if they have decided not to cast any spells and don't need to misty step they can add the easy offhand attack.

It won't add much of anything without bladesong (or, only as much as it would for an EK without styles/feats).

And, of course, at a "precasting" table they'll be able to use it from the get-go and it would be action surge alone that determines the fighter's lead.


They aren't perfect - concentration is an issue (especially if they shadowblade before bladesong) and feats are scarce unless they have heroic stats, but if they do have those heroic stats - yikes.

[Dork_Forge]

But it doesn’t even come into play until round 3, since the BS will need Bladesong followed by Shadowblade, then finally on round 3 they have a free bonus action.

If this is about adding DPR without Bladesong it would only add a couple of points of DPR while taking up your free casting hand.

With the change to Bladesong they most likely won't be using it every combat (and the duration could have changed to make it more pre'cast'able) though let me give you an example:

V.Human (Fighting style feat: Dueling)

8 18 14 16 10 8

First Round (casting SB)

7d8+12=43.5

Second Round (drawing SS after BB attack)

7d8+1d6+10=45


total: 88.5

Using the Dueling style, drawing a SS yields a 1.5 damage boost, which is fairly small. The thing is it literally costs you nothing to just draw it and attack, you qualify for it already so why not? It also helps prevent overkill situations, allowing a BS to split their damage up amongst multiple monsters. This is still better than commanding a single undead (you're not a necromancer after all) with your bonus action and animated objects is concentration, so you lose a shed load of SB damage. The primary point here being it unlocks the ability to TWF for teh BS, opening up more avenues for abuse, afterall if your primary attack is SB then it's more likely you can offload your magic weapon to your offhand etc.

[cutlery]

afterall if your primary attack is SB then it's more likely you can offload your magic weapon to your offhand etc.

Exactly - a strong reason to go for a light weapon for your "main" hand as it is still usable in your offhand with SB.

And, this works both ways, but another attack is another chance for an enemy to lose concentration.

[Dork_Forge]

Exactly - a strong reason to go for a light weapon for your "main" hand as it is still usable in your offhand with SB.

And, this works both ways, but another attack is another chance for an enemy to lose concentration.

In late game it allows another stacking of Song of Victory too in longer combats (which tend to be more frequent the higher you go). It's not going to break the game wide open, but there's no good reason for it to be there, especially with the same book bringing fighting styles to feats.

[cutlery]

In late game it allows another stacking of Song of Victory too in longer combats (which tend to be more frequent the higher you go). It's not going to break the game wide open, but there's no good reason for it to be there, especially with the same book bringing fighting styles to feats.

Yep, that's why I estimated around 5.5 damage; that's including SoV (Short Sword, (3.5+5)*.65).

A magic weapon increases this, of course.

I think bladesingers were already well motivated to melee; I agree this feels like a bit too much and frankly just sucks for EKs as it beats them at their main 7th level niche.

Edit: *, not /

[Gignere]

Yep, that's why I estimated around 5.5 damage; that's including SoV (Short Sword, (3.5+5)*.65).

A magic weapon increases this, of course.

I think bladesingers were already well motivated to melee; I agree this feels like a bit too much and frankly just sucks for EKs as it beats them at their main 7th level niche.

Edit: *, not /

They need to buff war magic so it works with the higher extra attacks.

[CMCC]

So in terms of cool multiclass (not pure optimisation), is it worth sinking 6 levels into Wizard for that Bladesinger feature for an Eldritch Knight?

You double up on Extra Attack, pushing your Extra Attack (2) back to 17th level...

I don’t see the value of wasting your extra attack and war magic abilities with an EK.


Under this Bladesinger, couldn't you 1) BB/GFB 2)standard attack 3) TWF BA attack?

And if the fighting style feat remains (and becomes a half feat) I'm not really sure how a Bladesinger isn't just outpacing most martials at that point...

What a ridiculous and unnecessary change.

Or PAM with a spear or XBE with a hand crossbow. Exciting new ability - especially since the extra attack was largely wasted on the BS because of the SCAG cantrips.

[cutlery]

I don’t see the value of wasting your extra attack and war magic abilities with an EK.

True, but a fair bit of the sparkle of an ek7/wizard13 is gone now.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don’t see the value of wasting your extra attack and war magic abilities with an EK.

Sorry, I'm being dense, but I have no idea what this means. What's wasted and how?

Edit: oh, because EK War Magic only keys off casting a cantrip as an action? Fair point.

[CMCC]

Sorry, I'm being dense, but I have no idea what this means. What's wasted and how?

Edit: oh, because EK War Magic only keys off casting a cantrip as an action? Fair point.

Yup, exactly this. And then the level 5 EK ability is completely redundant with the BS lvl 6 ability.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yup, exactly this. And then the level 5 EK ability is completely redundant with the BS lvl 6 ability.

Extra Attack overlap? Yeah. I guess it's more you just want that tasty Bladesinger ability, since it seems to be so much better.

[CMCC]

Extra Attack overlap? Yeah. I guess it's more you just want that tasty Bladesinger ability, since it seems to be so much better.

Yeah I’m of the mind that there is almost no scenario where you take two separate classes past the extra attack ability.

[Gignere]

Yeah I’m of the mind that there is almost no scenario where you take two separate classes past the extra attack ability.

If the wording of the new BS cantrip replacing ability works with extra attack 3 it might make sense for an EK 11 to pick up BS 6. Cantrip 2 attacks and potentially a bonus attack from war magic but need to see how everything is worded.

[CMCC]

If the wording of the new BS cantrip replacing ability works with extra attack 3 it might make sense for an EK 11 to pick up BS 6. Cantrip 2 attacks and potentially a bonus attack from war magic but need to see how everything is worded.

Hmm... if it simply reads “you can replace one of your attacks with a cantrip” the above would be viable - and very interesting.

Is there an official wording out yet?

[Mr Adventurer]

War Magic is when you use your action to cast a cantrip - so doesn't synergise with BS 6 at all.

Edit: unless the wording on BS 6 is clearly beyond even using Extra Attack as your Attack action and says something like "whenever you make a weapon attack, you can cast a cantrip instead". Which would be even more bonkers and also make that part of War Caster obsolete.

[Blood of Gaea]

Primary changes that we know of are
1. No more elf restriction
2. Lvl 6 extra attack also includes the ability to sub 1 attack with a cantrip - which is huge IMO and very exciting from a play and optimization standpoint.
3. # of songs was changed to PB per LONG rest.
#2 Makes it seem like grabbing at least one Blade cantrip is an amazing choice, maybe even both for the variety.

The lack of elf restriction adds some interestring options. Mark of Warding Abjuration Dwarf is probably up their with the best, though it's likely not an option for AL.

I could also see Protector Aasimar as a serious option for stacking on a bit more damage, though it also uses you bonus action to do so.

[Dork_Forge]

#2 Makes it seem like grabbing at least one Blade cantrip is an amazing choice, maybe even both for the variety.

The lack of elf restriction adds some interestring options. Mark of Warding Abjuration Dwarf is probably up their with the best, though it's likely not an option for AL.

I could also see Protector Aasimar as a serious option for stacking on a bit more damage, though it also uses you bonus action to do so.

Aasimar racials require a full action to activate, usually not worth it unless the boss and even then up in the air.

[cutlery]

Aasimar racials require a full action to activate, usually not worth it unless the boss and even then up in the air.

Yeah.

And don't forget weapon proficiencies - bladesinger only grants proficiency with one martial weapon; so you get a lot of mileage out of the elf racial weapons. (or did.).

I suppose shortsword is enough, but I'd want a couple more.

You could take something like Githyanki and swap greatsword for scimitar or rapier, I suppose. I don't think you can swap the armor proficiencies, though.

The elf longbow proficiency is pretty useful through Tier 1 into Tier 2 for a dexterity bladesinger; so I'd probably be somewhat inclined to consider half elves (with high elf heritage) and high elves, anyway.

[Mikal]

Was it broken in past additions? Why did they make it so entirely useless?

No in fact based on the mechanics of it in the edition it first came out and the mechanics of how attacks and combat worked it sucked then too

[Hael]

The trouble with Agonizing Blast is that it scales with CHA, so the Eldritch Blast angle becomes slightly less appealing.

Nevertheless, you can take V.Human Magic Initiate for Eldritch Blast to supplement your regular attacks.
I wouldn't take Crossbow Expert, though, since your bonus action is already taken by both Bladesong and Spirit Shroud.

Honestly, you don't even need agonizing blast and you don't even need much CHA if you're going pure Bladesinger and still want to see big numbers.

I'd take Spell Sniper to get EB and double Shrouds range (which is a bit too close). At lvl 17 you have 6 attacks that trigger shroud even without using Simalcrum (6 with XBE). Even if you only use your 5th lvl slot on shroud you get 12d8 + 2 d6 + 4d10 + (modifiers). This multiplicative scaling blows away all the melee options that are being discussed here.

[CMCC]

Honestly, you don't even need agonizing blast and you don't even need much CHA if you're going pure Bladesinger and still want to see big numbers.

I'd take Spell Sniper to get EB and double Shrouds range (which is a bit too close). At lvl 17 you have 6 attacks that trigger shroud even without using Simalcrum (6 with XBE). Even if you only use your 5th lvl slot on shroud you get 12d8 + 2 d6 + 4d10 + (modifiers). This multiplicative scaling blows away all the melee options that are being discussed here.

Is shroud an official spell?

[Hael]

Is shroud an official spell?

Yes, we know that it’s being printed in Tashas. Current info is that it is unchanged from UA except for the scaling change of 1d8 for every two lvls instead of one.

[Sol0botmate]

For me the "new" magic fighter build would be something like BS 6/7 EK

You get War Magic + new BS extra cantrip attack.

War Magic lets you attack on bonus action if you cast cantrip with your action, which you do in your action.

So with Shadow Blade you could attack, boomib blade, bonus action attack, Action Surge: attack, booming blade attack.

Then you can finish with EK for extra attack at 17 or with BS for more spells.

But Pure BS would also be nice now with Shroud and all other Wizard stuff like Simulacrum etc.

[Gignere]

For me the "new" magic fighter build would be something like BS 6/7 EK

You get War Magic + new BS extra cantrip attack.

War Magic lets you attack on bonus action if you cast cantrip with your action, which you do in your action.

So with Shadow Blade you could attack, boomib blade, bonus action attack, Action Surge: attack, booming blade attack.

Then you can finish with EK for extra attack at 17 or with BS for more spells.

But Pure BS would also be nice now with Shroud and all other Wizard stuff like Simulacrum etc.

Yeah this looks good, probably go to 7 with EK than jump over for BS 6 or the other way around but you do get better proficiencies with fighter first and con saves.

BS 6 / AT X will also be the new arcane trickster build. At least pure EK is DPR competitive with BS / EK but pure AT is basically completely outshone by the BS 6 / AT X now.

[cutlery]

For me the "new" magic fighter build would be something like BS 6/7 EK

You get War Magic + new BS extra cantrip attack.



At level 13 against AC 18 (with a greatsword, as AFAIK the BS extra attack isn't tied to bladesong restrictions) you'd have 29 damage.

With Shadow blade, you'd have 41.93 damage (without advantage).

At level 14 a pure bladesinger is managing 42.3 damage without advantage.

A pure EK is managing 36.1 damage


The EK/Bladesinger does more later as they finally get higher level slots - but not that many. An EK 11/Bladesinger 6 only has one 5th level slot per long rest (4th level slots don't improve shadow blade damage above 3rd level slots).

Still, assuming the two extra attack feature work together (without stacking attacks), an EK11/BS6 would have three attacks, one of which could be a cantrip and, maybe one bonus action attack:

If using the 5th level slot; that's

.65 * ((18+5)*4 + (4.5*3))


68.575, without advantage. 92.58 damage with advantage. No action surge used. The pure EK casting SB3 is managing 48.7 damage without advantage.

I suspect an errata to clarify this; as this is pretty bonkers; though it doesn't really get that bad until 17.



By comparison, a pure EK who had a version of War Magic that worked like the bladesinger extra attack, with accuracy of .65 and no advantage at level 20 would manage 56.88 damage.

BS/EK is broken as hell if the war magic bonus attack and Extra Attack (2) both work with the cantrip swap for one attack feature from Bladesinger.

[ff7hero]

BS 6 / AT X will also be the new arcane trickster build. At least pure EK is DPR competitive with BS / EK but pure AT is basically completely outshone by the BS 6 / AT X now.

If level 11+ is on the table, Reliable Talent is a strong reason to stay pure AT.

[CMCC]

For me the "new" magic fighter build would be something like BS 6/7 EK

You get War Magic + new BS extra cantrip attack.

War Magic lets you attack on bonus action if you cast cantrip with your action, which you do in your action.

So with Shadow Blade you could attack, boomib blade, bonus action attack, Action Surge: attack, booming blade attack.

Then you can finish with EK for extra attack at 17 or with BS for more spells.

But Pure BS would also be nice now with Shroud and all other Wizard stuff like Simulacrum etc.

You don’t get action surge, but with PAM you can do this right at level 6. Attack, BB, bonus action attack.

[cutlery]

You don’t get action surge, but with PAM you can do this right at level 6. Attack, BB, bonus action attack.

True, but you'll need strength to attack in that case, which is rather MAD at 6 for what is still a pure bladesinger.

You also can't get the extra attack with shadowblade (though you can easily get a BA attack with an offhand).

Shadowblade is the bulk of the damage here.

[Gignere]

You don’t get action surge, but with PAM you can do this right at level 6. Attack, BB, bonus action attack.

Unless you rolled amazing stats PAM doesn’t play well with Bladesingers. Who already needs Dex / Int and Con. To use PAM you’ll need strength too. If you luck out and manage to get a pair of ogre gauntlets, I guess you can manage with PB.

[CMCC]

Both great points. There’s also 3 lvls of battle smith if you want to be SAD. But then you have some really BA conflicts.

XBE is still a thing though, I guess. But you’d have to fire off fire bolt or something.

[saucerhead]

The other interesting thing about baldesinger being opened up to every race, is the racial feats are too: Bountiful Luck, Elven Accuracy, etc. The new feats that could give a BS access to meta-magic or fighting styles will be interesting too. The change to the 6th level extra attack is excellent though.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah this looks good, probably go to 7 with EK than jump over for BS 6 or the other way around but you do get better proficiencies with fighter first and con saves.

BS 6 / AT X will also be the new arcane trickster build. At least pure EK is DPR competitive with BS / EK but pure AT is basically completely outshone by the BS 6 / AT X now.

In terms of DPR you're right, but if you're going straight 20 AT for DPR then you're doing it wrong:

BB+SB on both a 20AT and a 6BS/14AT:

AT:6d8+10d6+5=67

BS6/AT14: 11d8+10+7d6=84

But if you're going to 20 Rogue with the intention of going high DPR in melee with a Rogue then you're better off with an Inquisitive (Dueling gained from feat, can also grab this on the AT, SCAGtrip gained from feat or racial):

4d8+7+13d6=71.5

Or better yet a Dueling Scout:

2d8+20d6+14=93 with auto advantage after the first hit on the first turn before dropping to a still respectable 1d8+7+10d6 (46.5)

Or even better yet a TWF Thief with their two turns:

24d6+20=104

The Scout, Thief and Inqusitive are also more compatable with magic items, but that is game dependent, you could be throwing on a +1, +2d6 or whatever. The damage drops off after the first turn for the Scout and Thief, but with much higher guaranteed damage and such high first turn damage (repeatable every combat, no matter how long the adventuring day) the combat will likely be over in 2 rounds (if not 1) for most creatures anyway.

Though going straight 20 in Rogue isn't about exceptionally high damage, it's about being able to pump out level appropriate damage all day without resources whilst being great at other stuff:

The BS/AT build tops out at 3rd level spells, but misses out on:

-An ASI
-Slippery Mind (free Wis save prof)
-Elusive (never have advantage against you...)
-6 less hp in melee
-Stroke of Luck
-The capstone subclass feature (Spell Thief for the AT, but an extra 3d6 for the Inquisitive and an entire extra turn for the Thief and an extra sneak eligible attack for the scout)

[Wizard_Lizard]

And here was silly ol' me thinking they would nerf bladesinner.

[Sol0botmate]

And here was silly ol' me thinking they would nerf bladesinner.

Why would they? It was very underwhelming subclass in what it was suppose to do - melee. And when it comes to spellcasting - other subclasses did it better.

[CMCC]

Why would they? It was very underwhelming subclass in what it was suppose to do - melee. And when it comes to spellcasting - other subclasses did it better.

Exactly this.

Why play a bladesinger when war mage was just better. Even abjurer could be a solid melee wizard with a level of hexblade.

Now you have a reason to play a BS.


And here was silly ol' me thinking they would nerf bladesinner.

They nerfed the actual BS ability.

[Mr Adventurer]

Why play a bladesinger when war mage was just better. Even abjurer could be a solid melee wizard with a level of hexblade.

I don't think a War Mage is better at what the Bladesinger does than the Bladesinger is.

Persistent AC is always of benefit, even if on a limited-use ability.

Also - you can't just introduce Hexblade to the equation. That's a completely different premise.



They nerfed the actual BS ability.

Disagree with this - if a class has the innate ability to cast Wish 2/day, and they change it to cast Wish 1/day, they didn't nerf the ability - it's still Wish - they just reduced the frequency with which it can be used. This is a nerf to the class overall, of course - but the ability isn't changed.

[CMCC]

I don't think a War Mage is better at what the Bladesinger does than the Bladesinger is.

Persistent AC is always of benefit, even if on a limited-use ability.

What was used in more Gish builds: bladesinger or war mage?



They nerfed the actual BS ability.

Disagree with this - if a class has the innate ability to cast Wish 2/day, and they change it to cast Wish 1/day, they didn't nerf the ability - it's still Wish - they just reduced the frequency with which it can be used. This is a nerf to the class overall, of course - but the ability isn't changed.

They reduced the frequency you can use the primary class feature. Term that how you will.

[Mr Adventurer]

What was used in more Gish builds: bladesinger or war mage?



They reduced the frequency you can use the primary class feature. Term that how you will.

1. I don't care, for reasons I've edited into my post above before I saw your post (sorry!).

2. I think I will call it "changing the frequency with which you can use the most interesting class feature", since "nerf" implies that it has been weakened when the effect of the ability remains the same, and whether it is in fact more or less frequent is going to depend upon the short rest economy at the table in question.

[cutlery]

They nerfed the actual BS ability.

The frequency change is fine. The ability didn't scale at all, which isn't very good design. Whether it should scale off of prof bonus or wizard level is a different question, but scaling it is fine. 2 per LR is still plenty for Tier 1.

Letting bladesingers surpass the AC of a fighter at level 2 was a bit much (+2 +3 +3 = ac 18 at level 2 with a 16 dex and 16 int), so fewer times per day at early levels is better, I think, than cutting the overall AC bonus.


This is nowhere near the magnitude of the change to their form of extra attack, though; which apparently works all day long. Their at will damage, at range or in melee outstrips that of any other wizard, by a wide margin.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Why would they? It was very underwhelming subclass in what it was suppose to do - melee. And when it comes to spellcasting - other subclasses did it better.

I guess the thing I have beef with is elven accuracy.

[CMCC]

The frequency change is fine. The ability didn't scale at all, which isn't very good design. Whether it should scale off of prof bonus or wizard level is a different question, but scaling it is fine. 2 per LR is still plenty for Tier 1.


This is nowhere near the magnitude of the change to their form of extra attack, though; which apparently works all day long. Their at will damage, at range or in melee outstrips that of any other wizard, by a wide margin.

Agree completely here. You can use the primary ability less - but it’s improved lvl 6 ability makes it overall much better - especially at weapon damage.

[cutlery]

I guess the thing I have beef with is elven accuracy.

I'd hold out for the explicit text on how racial feats will change.

But: anyone can make an "Elf (Variant)" character with two +1s, a feat, and either a skill or darkvision, which would technically qualify for Elven Accuracy even if no specific rules modifying racial feats are forthcoming.

They could even arrange the +1s and EA +1 such that they can start with an 18 dex at level 1.

[Sol0botmate]

I guess the thing I have beef with is elven accuracy.

Then your beef will go on as with Tasha EA won't have racial restriction :)

[Wizard_Lizard]

Then your beef will go on as with Tasha EA won't have racial restriction :)

AHHHHHHHHH Triple advantage lucky feat, halfling with elven accuracy and the halfling luck feats and then on top of that being a chronurgy or divination wizard multiclass for when you really don't want to fail ever.

[Sol0botmate]

AHHHHHHHHH Triple advantage lucky feat, halfling with elven accuracy and the halfling luck feats and then on top of that being a chronurgy or divination wizard multiclass for when you really don't want to fail ever.

EA is not good for Wizards. But Lucky + Halfling + Divination was a combo before. However, we didn't have +1 INT subrace so now it will be just better.

I am more happy for Vuman being able to grab EA now at start. Wish we got those rules before I rolled my PAM GWM Hexblade for current campaign, since then I would start with EA, but ow well :). I will make another Hexblade in future. Now if they only changed EA to work with strength... eh, maybe I would finally play Barbarian.

[Blood of Gaea]

EA is not good for Wizards. But Lucky + Halfling + Divination was a combo before. However, we didn't have +1 INT subrace so now it will be just better.

I am more happy for Vuman being able to grab EA now at start. Wish we got those rules before I rolled my PAM GWM Hexblade for current campaign, since then I would start with EA, but ow well :). I will make another Hexblade in future. Now if they only changed EA to work with strength... eh, maybe I would finally play Barbarian.
Barbarian's would be exactly why EA doesn't work with strength, even Hexblade's who can get advantage quite often still have to pay for it considerably.

That said, Variant Human is totally a great Hexblade now, with +1 Cha +1 Dex or Con, and +1 Cha from Elven Accuracy. You lose out on a few potential racials (like a free cast of Darkness), but speeding up how fast EA + GWM comes online is pretty great. And you'll still have 18 Cha + EA + GWM by 8th level just like a Half Elf would.

[Gignere]

Barbarian's would be exactly why EA doesn't work with strength, even Hexblade's who can get advantage quite often still have to pay for it considerably.

That said, Variant Human is totally a great Hexblade now, with +1 Cha +1 Dex or Con, and +1 Cha from Elven Accuracy. You lose out on a few potential racials (like a free cast of Darkness), but speeding up how fast EA + GWM comes online is pretty great. And you'll still have 18 Cha + EA + GWM by 8th level just like a Half Elf would.

I think the build your own race may even be better +2 cha, and EA +1 will let you start with 18 cha. So you can get 20 charisma, GWM and EA by level 8.

[KorvinStarmast]

Optimize a new blade singer.
Why not go vHuman?
Feat is Res Con.
S 8 D 15(+1) C (13+1) I 15 +1) W 10 Ch 10 or W 12 Ch (but I worry about control spells at later levels ...)
Weapon: rapier.
By level 16 the Dex and Int are maxed. (Though I might want to take warcaster instead of 20 Dex at some point)

At level 18 Shield and Misty Step are always on.
So here's where I mumble and stumble a bit.

Granted, melee combat at level 18 is likely with some seriously nasty beasties, but AC during blade song is 24 or 25 effectively due to "always on" Shield (against single attacks, of course) and one could add Bracers of Defense to add two to that, and RoP to add another to that. (Leave one other attunement slot open)

Not a super tank, but able to avoid some hits. I'd suggest the last attunement slot go to Cloak of Displacement. Shield can't help you against a natural 20 on the d20.

None of these is an outrageous magic item to have on hand by level 18.

[cutlery]

I think the build your own race may even be better +2 cha, and EA +1 will let you start with 18 cha. So you can get 20 charisma, GWM and EA by level 8.

Yep, with fewer "wasted" proficiencies; and you can probably live without darkvision if you take devil's sight.

It's a new day, all right.

[Dork_Forge]

Optimize a new blade singer.
Why not go vHuman?
Feat is Res Con.
S 8 D 15(+1) C (13+1) I 15 +1) W 10 Ch 10 or W 12 Ch (but I worry about control spells at later levels ...)
Weapon: rapier.
By level 16 the Dex and Int are maxed. (Though I might want to take warcaster instead of 20 Dex at some point)

At level 18 Shield and Misty Step are always on.
So here's where I mumble and stumble a bit.

Granted, melee combat at level 18 is likely with some seriously nasty beasties, but AC during blade song is 24 or 25 effectively due to "always on" Shield (against single attacks, of course) and one could add Bracers of Defense to add two to that, and RoP to add another to that. (Leave one other attunement slot open)

Not a super tank, but able to avoid some hits. I'd suggest the last attunement slot go to Cloak of Displacement. Shield can't help you against a natural 20 on the d20.

None of these is an outrageous magic item to have on hand by level 18.

With Mage Armor and maxed Int and Dex the at will shield would push the BS' AC to 28 before any items are involved.

The thought on crits makes me wonder if adamantine studded leather would be a thing though...

[KorvinStarmast]

With Mage Armor and maxed Int and Dex the at will shield would push the BS' AC to 28 before any items are involved.

The thought on crits makes me wonder if adamantine studded leather would be a thing though...
ooh, yeah, and with arcane recovery casting a first level spell every 8 hours is a very low cost for that. Nice point.

[CMCC]

The new leak finally gives us the official wording!!


BS:
Extra Attack
“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”


EK:
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.



These abilities are not compatible IMO. You’re taking the attack action - not “using your action to cast a cantrip”.

[Hael]

I read it as compatible. I just don’t think it’s that strong or worth 7 lvls. Feats can readily give a BA attack instead.

In any event, it will likely be a sage advice ruling on day1.

[CMCC]

I read it as compatible. I just don’t think it’s that strong or worth 7 lvls. Feats can readily give a BA attack instead.

In any event, it will likely be a sage advice ruling on day1.

Which feats? Pam and XBE?

[Thunderous Mojo]

I read it as compatible. I just don’t think it’s that strong or worth 7 lvls. Feats can readily give a BA attack instead.

In any event, it will likely be a sage advice ruling on day1.

Would you mind explicating why you think the two powers are stackable?

As CMCC said the BS is using the Attack Action. The EK is using the Cast a Spell Action.

Now a BS/EK could Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack (War Magic) and then
Action Surge and take the Attack Action to Attack and Cantrip again using the Extra Attack action from the BS.

I'm not seeing a way to get a Fighter's Extra Attack 3, with a BS' Extra Attack while casting multiple Cantrips.

[Valmark]

Would you mind explicating why you think the two powers are stackable?

As CMCC said the BS is using the Attack Action. The EK is using the Cast a Spell Action.

Now a BS/EK could Cantrip + Bonus Action Attack (War Magic) and then
Action Surge and take the Attack Action to Attack and Cantrip again using the Extra Attack action from the BS.

I'm not seeing a way to get a Fighter's Extra Attack 3, with a BS' Extra Attack while casting multiple Cantrips.

It's not really a stretch of the imagination. Extra Attack says "when you take the attack action" but War Magic merely says that the action needs to be used to cast a cantrip, not that it has to be the Cast a Spell action. If you substitute one attack with a cantrip you can say to be using your action to cast a cantrip.

It's a bit tortuos IMO, but it seems perfectly valid.

[CMCC]

It's not really a stretch of the imagination. Extra Attack says "when you take the attack action" but War Magic merely says that the action needs to be used to cast a cantrip, not that it has to be the Cast a Spell action. If you substitute one attack with a cantrip you can say to be using your action to cast a cantrip.

It's a bit tortuos IMO, but it seems perfectly valid.

I would be more inclined to agree here if war magic read “... if you cast a cantrip during your action” instead of “use your action to...”

[Thunderous Mojo]

It's not really a stretch of the imagination. Extra Attack says "when you take the attack action" but War Magic merely says that the action needs to be used to cast a cantrip, not that it has to be the Cast a Spell action. If you substitute one attack with a cantrip you can say to be using your action to cast a cantrip.

It's a bit tortuos IMO, but it seems perfectly valid.

I agree that is valid. Later clarification might show that it isn't sound, via Sage Advice....though one has to imagine the Design Staff would have "gamed out" the change's ramifications before publishing.

It allows for interesting tactical flexibility...Move Earth + Shove anyone?

[bendking]

The new leak finally gives us the official wording!!


BS:
Extra Attack
“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”


EK:
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.



These abilities are not compatible IMO. You’re taking the attack action - not “using your action to cast a cantrip”.

There's a new leak?
All I could find was just a document compiling everything that was already leaked together.

[CMCC]

There's a new leak?
All I could find was just a document compiling everything that was already leaked together.

Screenshots.

[bendking]

Screenshots.

Link in PM please?

[Spiritchaser]

The new leak finally gives us the official wording!!


BS:
Extra Attack
“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”


EK:
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.



These abilities are not compatible IMO. You’re taking the attack action - not “using your action to cast a cantrip”.

If this is the exact wording then let’s hope they have also included some specific clarification somewhere, because this is highly ambiguous.

I can easily see how two different readings could be valid.

A strict reading which focussed on the content of the action would note that the action was used to cast a cantrip (nothing was said about not doing other things!) and therefore the combination is valid. This is perfectly good logic. What you actually do matters!

An equally strict reading that focussed on the action take “cast spell” vs. “Attack” would note that this was an attack action. And that therefore the combination is not valid. This isn’t exactly the text of what the EK power lists, but it is very reasonable inferred and is also perfectly good logic, labels for actions are important.


I don’t think that at level 13 this combination is broken, or even bad but if this is the text then I really hope there’s a little more clarity in some sidebar somewhere. Otherwise I guess it’s one more thing for everyones session 0 handout... and I’m pretty certain we won’t all come up with the same conclusion.

I wouldn’t fault anyone for arriving at either.

[Sol0botmate]

The new leak finally gives us the official wording!!


BS:
Extra Attack
“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”


EK:
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.



These abilities are not compatible IMO. You’re taking the attack action - not “using your action to cast a cantrip”.

And for me they are compatible:

“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”

"Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."

You used your action to cast a cantrip. It doesn't matter if it's attack action, it's still an action and you used that action to cast a cantrip.

Imo it works together.

[cutlery]

I read it as compatible. I just don’t think it’s that strong or worth 7 lvls. Feats can readily give a BA attack instead.

In any event, it will likely be a sage advice ruling on day1.

It's not just granting a BA attack, it's granting a BA attack ultimately without cannibalizing main attacks, and does not require a polearm - so that BA attack can be Shadow Blade rather than the butt end of a halberd.

Thus, at level 17; an EK7/Bladesinger10 (who has 2 5th level slots and 1 6th level slot) can upcast Shadow Blade to 5th level 3 times per LR (and Arcane Recovery for a 4th).

At 5th; that's 4d8.

So, they can attack once, cast Booming Blade for their second, then take a BA attack for another swing.

That's 15d8 + 15, or 82.5 damage

An ek 11/BS6 has only one 5th level slot, but; if the BS extra attack feature works with Extra Attack (2):

attack attack boomingblade bonus action attack

for: 17d8+20 or 96.5 damage

And shadow blade can gain advantage in dim light. No GWM or PAM feats required; so those ASIs are free to be spent elsewhere. If they take BS to 9 they'll round out their spell slots.

For comparison; a level 20 EK upcasting shadow blade can manage 12d8+20, or 74 damage. If they happen to have GWM and crit or kill, that's another 18.5 damage as a bonus action.

If they had the bladesinger version of extra attack, that's only an extra 13.5 damage from BB or GFB (no rider).

So, it's nice, but it's shadow blade doing most of the work except for the weird case of the EK11/BS6 where casting a cantrip gets them 3d8 and a bonus action attack (that can also be with upcast shadow blade).

[Sol0botmate]

It's not just granting a BA attack, it's granting a BA attack ultimately without cannibalizing main attacks, and does not require a polearm - so that BA attack can be Shadow Blade rather than the butt end of a halberd.

Thus, at level 17; an EK7/Bladesinger10 (who has 2 5th level slots and 1 6th level slot) can upcast Shadow Blade to 5th level 3 times per LR (and Arcane Recovery for a 4th).

At 5th; that's 4d8.

So, they can attack once, cast Booming Blade for their second, then take a BA attack for another swing.

That's 15d8 + 15, or 82.5 damage

An ek 11/BS6 has only one 5th level slot, but; if the BS extra attack feature works with Extra Attack (2):

attack attack boomingblade bonus action attack

for: 17d8+20 or 96.5 damage

And shadow blade can gain advantage in dim light. No GWM or PAM feats required; so those ASIs are free to be spent elsewhere. If they take BS to 9 they'll round out their spell slots.

For comparison; a level 20 EK upcasting shadow blade can manage 12d8+20, or 74 damage. If they happen to have GWM and crit or kill, that's another 18.5 damage as a bonus action.

If they had the bladesinger version of extra attack, that's only an extra 13.5 damage from BB or GFB (no rider).

So, it's nice, but it's shadow blade doing most of the work except for the weird case of the EK11/BS6 where casting a cantrip gets them 3d8 and a bonus action attack (that can also be with upcast shadow blade).

Yup, it's not by any stretch a broken combo but nice way to build true "spellsword" who can actually do sword stuff very well. If someone wanted to build EK anyway - new BS/EK combo will just make his build better.

But still at same level of BS6/EK7 - a level 13 full Wizard has more impact and tools overall. And level 13 BS has Tenser which is great with EA and + INT to all attacks. But this is good for people who just want magic to support them in melee, simillar to Hexblades.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, I think I'd allow it purely because I like Eldritch Knights.

[cutlery]

Yup, it's not by any stretch a broken combo but nice way to build true "spellsword" who can actually do sword stuff very well. If someone wanted to build EK anyway - new BS/EK combo will just make his build better.

But still at same level of BS6/EK7 - a level 13 full Wizard has more impact and tools overall. And level 13 BS has Tenser which is great with EA and + INT to all attacks. But this is good for people who just want magic to support them in melee, simillar to Hexblades.

Don't stop at 13; at 14 the bladesinger gets song of victory


With Shadow Blade V;

(4d8 + 10) * 2 + 2d8 (booming blade)
(1d6 + 5) - offhand shortsword + SoV

73.5 damage.


With Tensers instead:

(1d6+2d12 + 10)*2 + 2d8
+1d6 + 2d12+5 (offhand shortsword)

83.5

Really, it's the offhand swing that makes it here; it's more of a nice bonus with shadow blade.

The ~9 damage from a blade cantrip adds up, but it isn't earth shaking here. Getting to apply that and the offhand + SoV + Tensers is a bunch,; but shadow blade is pretty nice once you've used your 6th level slot.

[Mr Adventurer]

I wish people would stop using Shadowblade as the basis for all gish baselines. It's a weird spell and not everyone will have it. I know it's "best". I just don't want to have to imagine a world where every single Gish exclusively uses Shadowblade.

(It's also, like the Wraithstrike spell in 3.5e, in a spot where if you want to be in a situation where you could use it, you do want to use it; and if you aren't in a situation you could use it, you never want to use it. I.e. if you're a gish, you can't be without it; if you're not, you don't care about it. This is basically a definition of broken in my eyes and I'd ban it if I could. But I don't need to argue about that.)

[KorvinStarmast]

... if you're a gish, you can't be without it; if you're not, you don't care about it. {Shadow blade}
Our gnome Arcane Trickster loves it. Is he a gish?

Some of the white room discussions seem to overlook the concentration aspect of that spell. It can drop mid fight whereas a regular weapon won't.

[cutlery]

I know it's "best". I just don't want to have to imagine a world where every single Gish exclusively uses Shadowblade.



If someone sits down figure out how to maximize their damage, they'll pick it.

It isn't any more boring than GWM or GWM+PAM or CBE+SS.

Would it be nice if there were some other spells that rivaled it? Sure.

Spirit Shroud might do it; but if it does, then everyone will talk about that instead.

(At least Spirit Shroud works with a weapon rather than replacing that weapon; it hits parity with shadowblade at 5th level stacked onto a 1d8 one-hander; but no advantage).


Spirit Shroud isn't out yet - but when it is that probably take the place of shadow blade for some - but that's what it takes, a spell that's comparably as good.

[DarknessEternal]

Don't stop at 13; at 14 the bladesinger gets song of victory


With Shadow Blade V;

(4d8 + 10) * 2 + 2d8 (booming blade)
(1d6 + 5) - offhand shortsword + SoV

73.5 damage.


With Tensers instead:

(1d6+2d12 + 10)*2 + 2d8
+1d6 + 2d12+5 (offhand shortsword)

83.5

Really, it's the offhand swing that makes it here; it's more of a nice bonus with shadow blade.

The ~9 damage from a blade cantrip adds up, but it isn't earth shaking here. Getting to apply that and the offhand + SoV + Tensers is a bunch,; but shadow blade is pretty nice once you've used your 6th level slot.
Do the new Bladesingers lose the restriction about having a hand free or needing spell components?

[cutlery]

Do the new Bladesingers lose the restriction about having a hand free or needing spell components?

No need for a free hand when using bladesong; you just can't use a weapon that requires two hands to use.

Shadow Blade requires Somatic components, but once you've cast it, you've cast it, and it matters less if your hands are free.

You'll need war caster to be able to cast Shield - on the other hand you can draw a dagger as part of your movement and stab then drop it each round, if you really felt like it (or pick it up before attacking with it and then drop it).

A half dozen daggers that may or may not be reclaimed to get that second attack with Tenser's makes a lot of sense.

[Gignere]

{Shadow blade}
Our gnome Arcane Trickster loves it. Is he a gish?

Some of the white room discussions seem to overlook the concentration aspect of that spell. It can drop mid fight whereas a regular weapon won't.

Arcane trickster is a gish. It melees and casts it’s a gish.

[Gignere]

No need for a free hand when using bladesong; you just can't use a weapon that requires two hands to use.

Shadow Blade requires Somatic components, but once you've cast it, you've cast it, and it matters less if your hands are free.

You'll need war caster to be able to cast Shield - on the other hand you can draw a dagger as part of your movement and stab then drop it each round, if you really felt like it (or pick it up before attacking with it and then drop it).

A half dozen daggers that may or may not be reclaimed to get that second attack with Tenser's makes a lot of sense.

How are you casting with Tenser’s up?

[Sol0botmate]

If someone sits down figure out how to maximize their damage, they'll pick it.

It isn't any more boring than GWM or GWM+PAM or CBE+SS.

Would it be nice if there were some other spells that rivaled it? Sure.

Spirit Shroud might do it; but if it does, then everyone will talk about that instead.

(At least Spirit Shroud works with a weapon rather than replacing that weapon; it hits parity with shadowblade at 5th level stacked onto a 1d8 one-hander; but no advantage).


Spirit Shroud isn't out yet - but when it is that probably take the place of shadow blade for some - but that's what it takes, a spell that's comparably as good.

Exactly. Shadow Blade is best because it's best for spellswords. Simple as that. Same as PAM + GWM is in many cases the best combo, because it is. I made couple of melee characters so far in 5e and in 99% cases I go PAM + GWM because it's just that good. The only scenario where I didn't go for it was Sorcadin where I was rocking S+S + Spirit Guardians or Shadow Blade + Smites.

However when Spirit Shroud is out, it might be new combo for Bladesinger. Tenser Transformation + Spirit Shroud from Simulacrum. Although it will remain to be seen if it beats Hasted Tenser.

But I like EK + BS combo because EK is lacking a little imo so extra 6 levels of BS will definitely make him better overall spellsword.

[cutlery]

How are you casting with Tenser’s up?

All the more reason not to worry about your offhand, I suppose.

I don't use the spell much, myself. You can eke out a bit more damage with it over shadow blade. Maybe the defensive benefits are worth it - maybe not.

However - using a weapon with your offhand isn't a problem for casting. It isn't a shield that needs donning and doffing - you can just drop it.


Although it will remain to be seen if it beats Hasted Tenser.

Spirit Shroud has a range of self, so a simulacrum can't cast it on you. If it could, it would outdamage haste when cast at 5th level - but it can't.

[KorvinStarmast]

Arcane trickster is a gish. It melees and casts it’s a gish. Given that I don't like that word, no he isn't. :smallwink: But thanks for explaining what you mean.

[KorvinStarmast]

However when Spirit Shroud is out, it might be new combo for Bladesinger. Tenser Transformation + Spirit Shroud from Simulacrum. Although it will remain to be seen if it beats Hasted Tenser.
Lovely white room character design.
Comes on line at the earliest at level 13. The money to make a Simulacrum ought to be available well before then .. and a few rubies powdered up for the next ones if needed...ice from the usual supplier.

Do you have a progression in mind from level 1 to 13?

And just out of curiosity, since I've not played a Bladesinger at level anything above 6, how often does the blade singer mix it up in melee with CR 13+ monsters in your experience?

[Sol0botmate]

Lovely white room character design.
Comes on line at the earliest at level 13. The money to make a Simulacrum ought to be available well before then .. and a few rubies powdered up for the next ones if needed...ice from the usual supplier.

Do you have a progression in mind from level 1 to 13?

I would start with EA at level 1 for Bladesinger, then go for 18 DEX and 18 INT to round up spell/melee, then grab RES (CON) or War Caster. Then work to 20 DEX and 20 INT. Mobile is also not a bad idea. Depends how do you feel about your concentration with Blade Song.

Level 13 is no super long wait. Till then you have Shadow Blade for melee, Blade Song to boost concentraiton and AC + all other wizard goodies and utility.

And money to make Sim is rarely a problem at this level unless you play some really low money/magic items setting.

The decision here how to build new BS imo comes to:

- Do you want to be more melee with spells as support?
- Do you want to be more caster with melee as support?

In first case I would got for EK/BS combo and mostly fight in melee.

In second, stay pure BS and mostly think like Wizard but occasionally go into melee combat for some good single target DPR.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would start with EA at level 1 for Bladesinger, then go for 18 DEX and 18 INT to round up spell/melee, then grab RES (CON) or War Caster. Then work to 20 DEX and 20 INT. Mobile is also not a bad idea. Depends how do you feel about your concentration with Blade Song. How do you get EA at level 1? vHuman, no racial restriction on BS, and no racial restriction on EA?

Level 13 is no super long wait.
Depends on the campaigns you are in. Most published adventure are over, or nearly over, at that point.

Till then you have Shadow Blade for melee, Blade Song to boost concentraiton and AC + all other wizard goodies and utility. It is recast each time concentration is lost. Hopefully this will not be very often, but what I'd do (if this was me) is take that Warcaster to mitigate. Maybe at 12?

And money to make Sim is rarely a problem at this level unless you play some really low money/magic items setting. Agreed. I was going along with that line of thinking; by level 13, if you have a goal in mind there should be ample rubies stashed away, or in your pockets, as needed for Simularcum and a few spares.

In second, stay pure BS and mostly think like Wizard but occasionally go into melee combat for some good single target DPR. I think you'd need pure BS for it to come on line at 13, so I like that approach better.

If the game is a one shot starting at level 17, or you expect the game to go through 20, I can see the other approach having a lot of benefits.

[Sol0botmate]

How do you get EA at level 1? vHuman, no racial restriction on BS, and no racial restriction on EA?

Vuman with EA at start or Custom Lineage with +2 to abilities and EA +1 at start. Tasha's removes racial restriction from everything so it's free real estate.

[KorvinStarmast]

Vuman with EA at start or Custom Lineage with +2 to abilities and EA +1 at start. Tasha's removes racial restriction from everything so it's free real estate. Since I don't consider Tasha's 'real' until it arrives in my mail box, I'll go with your understanding of what we know so far.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

FWIW, I have always hated racial feats except Prodigy, which IMO ought to be fused with Skilled to make a single feat. Personal taste issue there.

[ThatDuckGrant]

I’m going to bring this thread back to the original question. How do you optimize this new version of the bladesinger?

1. Removes elf race as a restriction.
So this sounds more interesting than it really is. The high elf is still probably one of the best options for the build and will probably still get a lot of play. Other than that, we’re certainly going to see a **** ton of variant human BSers now, because they’re definitely the strongest race. VHuman (war caster) is probably the optimal pick. I don’t know 100% of the races by heart, but some others that could be interesting here are the gnome that gets Int and dex (idk which sub race that is), mark of warding dwarf for armor of agathys, and aarakokra for flight. If what I’ve read about Tashas is true and you can float a classes +1 bonus, it opens a lot more doors to you, but I don’t see any that are particularly stronger than Vhuman (sigh).

2. Changes # of bladesongs to proficiency per day instead of 2/rest.
This is interesting, and in my opinion not a completely overlookable nerf to playing the class straight through. Only having 2-3 bladesongs per day until level 9 puts you more on par with barbarians in the feeling that you have to save your defining class feature for when it really matters.
Conversely, a 2 level dip into bladesinger after rogue 15 gets you 6 bladesongs per day, which is probably more than 2/short rest we’re giving most people (in my experience 2sr days only happen ~30% of the time). Rogue, Bard, and Sorcerer could all benefit quite a bit from bladesinging, if you have the Int to spare when building them.

3. Allows you to cast a cantrip as one of your attacks at level 6.
This is honestly a bit mind blowing to me. IMO, bladesingers were already at their strongest (and possibly the strongest class in all of 5e) in tier 2. While fighters are making 2-3 attacks per round and action surging for 4-5, you could haste yourself or use shadow blade to almost keep up with their damage AND then nova with a fireball. The only drawback of playing a bladesinger was that buffing the party fighter/Paladin/rogue was usually the better choice than buffing yourself. Now, that’s just not the case. Your damage with BB/GFB keeps you right in lockstep with a fighter, even while only concentrating on a second or third level spell. Late in the game, this has a couple effects. First, it clearly makes you a viable frontliner; you now have both the AC and the damage potential to be on the frontlines in most fights. Second, it discourages further the use of tensers transformation as opposed to shadow blade or (probably) spirit shroud.

So in my opinion, there are a few answers to “how do you optimize the class”

1. You play it, straight from the beginning as a 1-20 progression that sees you competing with fighter for damage AND getting access to full wizard progression. This is now the perfect Gish in my opinion, outshining both the arcana cleric and Sorcadin.

2. Bladesinger 6 / Arcane Trickster 14 now seems more viable and a definite upgrade on the trickster to me. I would maybe start with AT 5 before going into BS, but I haven’t thought it through too much just yet. This build seems weaker to me than just plain Bladesinger, though it definitely has some advantages.

3. Fighter 2 / Bladesinger. I personally don’t view fighter 2 a viable dip for elf bladesingers, but with the introduction of VHuman, you can afford to lose the ASI to get to double cast or double your attacks on a turn. At level 8, this guy can cast 2 cantrips and make 4 attacks in the same turn if hasted. That’s even on par with the Gloomstalker/fighter mix that gets 6 attacks at level 7 or 8.

4. Last, the possibility of melding this benefit with Eldrich Blast has to be addressed. It’s possible, though I think it would be difficult. You then have 3 abilities that really need to be maxed to be effective. If you happened to come upon a headband of intellect before you put any ASIs into Int, you could make it work. Or if you rolled crazy stats or have some sort of hOme game buff. Otherwise, this is probably suboptimal despite the ridiculous number of attacks you could make per turn with it.

[CMCC]

This is awesome. And exactly what I was hoping for when I started the thread.

The hex/BS multi, you’d have to max charisma, max intel, and get at least 14s in con and dex.

That gets you a 20AC while BS is on (mage armor), you can use charisma to attack, charisma to blast, int for your primary spells.

At bs8/ hex3 You can bonus action shroud (or hex), 3 EBs for 3d10+15 + 3d8, then move in for a melee attack: 2d8+6 (improved pact weapon - can even use a hand crossbow)

That’s an average of 31.5 + 13.5 + 15 = 60 pts (assuming all hits) at level 11. Slightly less if you want to do it at range. And you didn’t even expend a BS use. Only one slot used for shroud or hex.

Can you use hex/pact weapons with shadow blade? I never got a clear answer in the past when I looked into it.

There is also 3 levels into battle smith that could be great by giving you SAD in attacks and a bonus action attack with your defender.

Dex is less important - even with only light armor - if you keep the defender nearby or as a mount to give disadvantage on that first enemy attack.

Just spitballing. Haven’t really dug in and tried to optimize on paper.

[Gignere]

4. Last, the possibility of melding this benefit with Eldrich Blast has to be addressed. It’s possible, though I think it would be difficult. You then have 3 abilities that really need to be maxed to be effective. If you happened to come upon a headband of intellect before you put any ASIs into Int, you could make it work. Or if you rolled crazy stats or have some sort of hOme game buff. Otherwise, this is probably suboptimal despite the ridiculous number of attacks you could make per turn with it.

EB is likely suboptimal even with good stats because you’ll need Crossbow Expert to use it in melee without disadvantage.

The optimal AT split is probably 11 AT / 9 BS, this will get you 5th level spells and 6 level slots. I plan to multi after Rogue 4 to BS 6 then jumping back into Rogue until 11. Uncanny dodge is good but jumping to wizard at 5 will give me two pretty good options for my reaction defense shield and absorb elements.

Going straight to BS 6 will give better defense and DPR than a straight AT with added benefit of ritual spells a lot more spell known and cantrips. The build really shines in tier 3 when you have level 5 in AT and 6 in BS, now you can sneak attack, blade ward, and stack uncanny dodge for 1/4 damage.

It will also have upcast shadowblade, ability to get offturn sneak attacks by casting haste or using sentinel, just a ton of both offense, defense, out of combat options.

[CMCC]

EB is likely suboptimal even with good stats because you’ll need Crossbow Expert to use it in melee without disadvantage.

The optimal AT split is probably 11 AT / 9 BS, this will get you 5th level spells and 6 level slots. I plan to multi after Rogue 4 to BS 6 then jumping back into Rogue until 11. Uncanny dodge is good but jumping to wizard at 5 will give me two pretty good options for my reaction defense shield and absorb elements.

Going straight to BS 6 will give better defense and DPR than a straight AT with added benefit of ritual spells a lot more spell known and cantrips. The build really shines in tier 3 when you have level 5 in AT and 6 in BS, now you can sneak attack, blade ward, and stack uncanny dodge for 1/4 damage.

It will also have upcast shadowblade, ability to get offturn sneak attacks by casting haste or using sentinel, just a ton of both offense, defense, out of combat options.

You can use EB at range and use a hand crossbow if you take 3 levels of warlock. Can't you also use EB, move into melee and attack?

[Mr Adventurer]

3. Fighter 2 / Bladesinger. I personally don’t view fighter 2 a viable dip for elf bladesingers, but with the introduction of VHuman, you can afford to lose the ASI to get to double cast or double your attacks on a turn. At level 8, this guy can cast 2 cantrips and make 4 attacks in the same turn if hasted. That’s even on par with the Gloomstalker/fighter mix that gets 6 attacks at level 7 or 8.

How does that work? 1 attack + cantrip + Haste attack + 1 attack + cantrip is 3 attacks ...?

[CMCC]

How does that work? 1 attack + cantrip + Haste attack + 1 attack + cantrip is 3 attacks ...?

action surge

[cutlery]

I’m going to bring this thread back to the original question. How do you optimize this new version of the bladesinger?

1. Removes elf race as a restriction.
So this sounds more interesting than it really is. The high elf is still probably one of the best options for the build and will probably still get a lot of play.


I'd think with floating bonuses, Half-elf with high elf weapon training would work great; You could start with something as absurd as 8, 16, 16, 16, 10, 8; and still have the weapon proficiencies. Only four skills, though.

Might depend on the module, but only one martial weapon might be too restrictive without the elf proficiencies.

[ThatDuckGrant]

How does that work? 1 attack + cantrip + Haste attack + 1 attack + cantrip is 3 attacks ...?

I was referencing an off-hand melee attack for the 4th attack.

[ThatDuckGrant]

I'd think with floating bonuses, Half-elf with high elf weapon training would work great; You could start with something as absurd as 8, 16, 16, 16, 10, 8; and still have the weapon proficiencies. Only four skills, though.

Might depend on the module, but only one martial weapon might be too restrictive without the elf proficiencies.

From what I’ve heard, only the +1s are floating, so you would need to leave the +2 in charisma. But if I’m wrong and all of the increases are changeable, I think half elf and mountain Dwarf become two of the best races in the game.

Think about a mountain dwarf bladesinger starting with 17 dex and 17 Int at level 1, then 18/18 at first ASI.

[cutlery]

From what I’ve heard, only the +1s are floating, so you would need to leave the +2 in charisma. But if I’m wrong and all of the increases are changeable, I think half elf and mountain Dwarf become two of the best races in the game.

Think about a mountain dwarf bladesinger starting with 17 dex and 17 Int at level 1, then 18/18 at first ASI.

Dwarf armor proficiencies would be wasted, and a Bladesinger ultimately has 3 stats they need, anyway.

Longbows and shortswords are really, really nice for a bladesinger - they can use their level 2 proficiency for rapiers, whips, or scimitars (but only one).

[Mr Adventurer]

action surge

...yes, that's the second lot of 1 attack + cantrip.


I was referencing an off-hand melee attack for the 4th attack.

Ah! Thanks. So 1 attack + cantrip + Haste attack + off-hand attack + 1 attack + cantrip.

[CMCC]

...yes, that's the second lot of 1 attack + cantrip.



Ah! Thanks. So 1 attack + cantrip + Haste attack + off-hand attack + 1 attack + cantrip.

OK my bad - i thought the 4 attacks + 2 cantrips was basically double counting booming blade attacks since it has both in the damage calculation.

[Hael]

I've sorta decided that this balance changes misses the mark a bit. Tier 1 and Tier2 was always a good spot for a bladesinger as a gish.. The problem was in tier 3, where the incentive to melee lost its appeal b/c of how overpowered the base class is.

Now, the bladesong changes really makes Tier 1 a very dicey proposition to melee. You can go into melee range twice a day, which might be sufficient at some tables, but more often than not you are going to be hanging back and holding onto that resource for when you really need it. Tier 2 of course is (and stays) fantastic. So then the question is, does anything really change in tier 3. And yea, you kinda do more damage so there is some incentive to go and hit things with your sword ... *but*... spells are probably going to still be more optimal sooner rather than later. So there's like a gain of a lvl or two where you can optimally Gish relative to the past.

So the net is that you lose levels of being an effective gish in tier 1, and maybe gain 1-2 lvls in tier 3.

So from an optimization point of view, i'm now much more worried about defense than I used to be. The 1 lvl hex dip of course seems very optimal, b/c it gives you ranged damage, scaling damage with hexes curse (that synergizes nicely with elven accuracy) and imo more crucially it gives you armor of agathys, and a shield proficiency. The latter two seem much more important than they used to be. Wearing a shield when you aren't bladesinging (which happens much more frequently) is going to be very strong, and you can put it on your back when you jump into melee. And honestly you can stick with 1 lvl of hex for the most part... You don't really need lvl 2 and lvl 3, and for that matter you really don't need more than 13 cha. (you can pump it up to 18-20 if you take agonizing blast as a feat but as I mentioned earlier, taking eldritch blast and spirit shroud does *more* than enough damage by itself, you don't really need the modifier to be that effective).

Otoh I think pumping Dex up high is much more important than it used to be, and perhaps getting Con to 16 as well. Relatively speaking, int and cha seem less important to this characters viability. And of course, I still think ranged damage with a xbow is going to remain by far the best bet.

[Dork_Forge]

I've sorta decided that this balance changes misses the mark a bit. Tier 1 and Tier2 was always a good spot for a bladesinger as a gish.. The problem was in tier 3, where the incentive to melee lost its appeal b/c of how overpowered the base class is.

Now, the bladesong changes really makes Tier 1 a very dicey proposition to melee. You can go into melee range twice a day, which might be sufficient at some tables, but more often than not you are going to be hanging back and holding onto that resource for when you really need it. Tier 2 of course is (and stays) fantastic. So then the question is, does anything really change in tier 3. And yea, you kinda do more damage so there is some incentive to go and hit things with your sword ... *but*... spells are probably going to still be more optimal sooner rather than later. So there's like a gain of a lvl or two where you can optimally Gish relative to the past.

So the net is that you lose levels of being an effective gish in tier 1, and maybe gain 1-2 lvls in tier 3.

So from an optimization point of view, i'm now much more worried about defense than I used to be. The 1 lvl hex dip of course seems very optimal, b/c it gives you ranged damage, scaling damage with hexes curse (that synergizes nicely with elven accuracy) and imo more crucially it gives you armor of agathys, and a shield proficiency. The latter two seem much more important than they used to be. Wearing a shield when you aren't bladesinging (which happens much more frequently) is going to be very strong, and you can put it on your back when you jump into melee. And honestly you can stick with 1 lvl of hex for the most part... You don't really need lvl 2 and lvl 3, and for that matter you really don't need more than 13 cha. (you can pump it up to 18-20 if you take agonizing blast as a feat but as I mentioned earlier, taking eldritch blast and spirit shroud does *more* than enough damage by itself, you don't really need the modifier to be that effective).

Otoh I think pumping Dex up high is much more important than it used to be, and perhaps getting Con to 16 as well. Relatively speaking, int and cha seem less important to this characters viability. And of course, I still think ranged damage with a xbow is going to remain by far the best bet.

Between cantrip scaling and Song of Victory the Bladesinger puts out pretty high damage in tier 3 and even 4, though completely agree that it's hurt signifcantly in tier 1 by the reduction in uses.

Personally I'd go Fighter over Hexblade:

-You get a fighting style

-Between the d10 and Second Wind you'll be far better off for hp

-It isn't MAD

-You're already bonus action heavy, HBC could instead be a TWF attack if you want to up damage

If you want AoA you can grab it from a Warding Dwarf, though if the goal is survivability you'd get better mileage (and progression) out of False Life.

[cutlery]

Ranged damage is already pretty good, though - longbow + dex + fire bolt. It isn’t eldritch blast + agonizing blast, but a bladesinger with Hexblade dip won’t have a strong EB anyway.

[CMCC]

I've sorta decided that this balance changes misses the mark a bit. Tier 1 and Tier2 was always a good spot for a bladesinger as a gish.. The problem was in tier 3, where the incentive to melee lost its appeal b/c of how overpowered the base class is.

Now, the bladesong changes really makes Tier 1 a very dicey proposition to melee. You can go into melee range twice a day, which might be sufficient at some tables, but more often than not you are going to be hanging back and holding onto that resource for when you really need it. Tier 2 of course is (and stays) fantastic. So then the question is, does anything really change in tier 3. And yea, you kinda do more damage so there is some incentive to go and hit things with your sword ... *but*... spells are probably going to still be more optimal sooner rather than later. So there's like a gain of a lvl or two where you can optimally Gish relative to the past.

So the net is that you lose levels of being an effective gish in tier 1, and maybe gain 1-2 lvls in tier 3.

So from an optimization point of view, i'm now much more worried about defense than I used to be. The 1 lvl hex dip of course seems very optimal, b/c it gives you ranged damage, scaling damage with hexes curse (that synergizes nicely with elven accuracy) and imo more crucially it gives you armor of agathys, and a shield proficiency. The latter two seem much more important than they used to be. Wearing a shield when you aren't bladesinging (which happens much more frequently) is going to be very strong, and you can put it on your back when you jump into melee. And honestly you can stick with 1 lvl of hex for the most part... You don't really need lvl 2 and lvl 3, and for that matter you really don't need more than 13 cha. (you can pump it up to 18-20 if you take agonizing blast as a feat but as I mentioned earlier, taking eldritch blast and spirit shroud does *more* than enough damage by itself, you don't really need the modifier to be that effective).

Otoh I think pumping Dex up high is much more important than it used to be, and perhaps getting Con to 16 as well. Relatively speaking, int and cha seem less important to this characters viability. And of course, I still think ranged damage with a xbow is going to remain by far the best bet.

You’re not hitting **** with a 13 charisma. Fire bolt is much better at that point.

Giving up an action to doff your shield is quite a cost, but it could be completely viable for those times when you run out of bladesinger uses.

[ThatDuckGrant]

I don’t think there’s any reason to dip hexblade unless you plan to get 18+ cha. A dip to fighter or artificer seems like the better move in that case. Having a shield in tier 1 is nice. Having a fighting style and Con save proficiency is better. Or cure wounds and Con save proficiency from the artificer.

[cutlery]

Once you hit level 2, your AC will be just as good as your average non-hexblade warlock; they manage not to die. I'd suggest using a bow, hanging back, and use stealth when possible.

At level 1, use mage armor, rely on a longbow.

Levels 1-2 suck for almost everyone, it isn't like a future battlemaster is quite fulfilling their design goals at level 2.

What starts to change things for the bladesinger is mirror image or blur - don't delay those. Level 5 is painful enough as a pure bladesinger as it is, if you're around some other melee characters that gain extra attack at 5.

[Gignere]

Once you hit level 2, your AC will be just as good as your average non-hexblade warlock; they manage not to die. I'd suggest using a bow, hanging back, and use stealth when possible.

At level 1, use mage armor, rely on a longbow.

Levels 1-2 suck for almost everyone, it isn't like a future battlemaster is quite fulfilling their design goals at level 2.

What starts to change things for the bladesinger is mirror image or blur - don't delay those. Level 5 is painful enough as a pure bladesinger as it is, if you're around some other melee characters that gain extra attack at 5.

Not too painful at all at level 5, BS has access to haste, melee cantrips, Shadowblade, and 3 Bladesongs a day.

With haste and melee cantrip you’re hitting harder than most pure melee without a bonus action attack. Can you Bladesong all day long like pre nerf no? However its enough with judicious use to carry you through the day. For easy battles just stay range and hit them with longbow or Toll the Dead 2d12 is fine damage for easy fights.

[cutlery]

Not too painful at all at level 5, BS has access to haste, melee cantrips, Shadowblade, and 3 Bladesongs a day.

With haste and melee cantrip you’re hitting harder than most pure melee without a bonus action attack. Can you Bladesong all day long like pre nerf no? However its enough with judicious use to carry you through the day. For easy battles just stay range and hit them with longbow or Toll the Dead 2d12 is fine damage for easy fights.

Depends on the adventuring day; they'll have at most 3 hastes per day, and no other 3rd level spells (obviously).

I'd say burning resources that hard just to keep up is painful - YMMV.

Now, at 6, when they get the cantrip for an attack and can stack haste on top of that if they wish, that's very different. Their at will keeps pace without the requirement of burning their best spell slots.

[Klorox]

I can't get excited or disappointed until I see it in print.

[CMCC]

I can't get excited or disappointed until I see it in print.

The screenshots are out there.

[Klorox]

The screenshots are out there.

It’s official when it’s printed. They can still change it.

[CMCC]

It’s official when it’s printed. They can still change it.

You think they are going to make changes to the book, print those changes, and ship the books in less than two weeks?

[Klorox]

You think they are going to make changes to the book, print those changes, and ship the books in less than two weeks?

Oh, almost definitely not.

But I’m not going to worry about it.

[Thunderous Mojo]

You think they are going to make changes to the book, print those changes, and ship the books in less than two weeks?

The book has been delayed. Perhaps, WOTC read these forum and thought:
"Oh crap, the book isn't even out yet, and the bastards already broke it..
.....Stop the Presses!"

[CMCC]

The book has been delayed. Perhaps, WOTC read these forum and thought:
"Oh crap, the book isn't even out yet, and the bastards already broke it..
.....Stop the Presses!"

Is this true?

[Thunderous Mojo]

Is this true?

I was being sardonic in my prior response.
Amazon orders have been delayed, though.

I can't speak for FLGS, but if Amazon can't get their deliveries, how is a small business going to get the book?

[Hael]

I thought i'd do a dpr comparison of two builds.

Build1: Bog standard slightly unoptimized Bladedancer: initial stats at lvl 9: 8 18 14 20 8 8. (We use Tashas variant elf + EA feat). Asi(4): int*2, Asi(8): dex*2, Asi(12): Dex*2
So ends with dex/int 20/20. This build casts booming blade and shadowblade at max rank. I have given 50% rider damage to BB.

Build2: Arcane archer: Wiz1/hex1/wiz16/fighter2. Half-elf initial stats at lvl 9: 8 14 13 13 8 20 Asi(5):cha Asi (8): XBE, ASI(12): Agonizing blast, ASI(16) Stats, EA, Warcaster or ResCon

This build casts spirit shroud at max rank. Uses hex's curse.

As usual I will assume a round of prebuff and ignore complications like how Shroud and Shadowblade are both bonus actions (I use a variant rule where a bonus action spell can be cast as an action if you choose). Alternatively you can stagger the casts between rounds, it just serves to muddle the math. Build1 shrouds + dances, build 2 shrouds + hexcurse.

So DPR comparison against AC 16 (using Ludics calculator).
Lvl 9: Build 1 (37.8/57.3) Build 2 (38.6/54)

Lvl 13: Build 1 (57.3/78) Build 2 (85.3/114)

Lvl 15: Build 1 (64.9/88.2) Build 2 (103/139)

So we see what happens here.. The first build is a good bit better at 9 b/c of how advantage works with shadowblade. It also is much less MAD and has actual high int so spells aren't limited to being buffs or utility (without spell dc saves). It also has much better AC and a few more hps.

Build 2 is probably not going to use bladesong much. It likely wears a shield, doesn't cast spells in combat unless it drops the hand xbow and wears light or medium armor (depending on if we decide to not bladesong). It starts off ok damage wise, but boy does it ramp up in tier 3 and especially tier 4. By lvl 20, its doing ~180/231 without using Simalcrum and might be one of the higher lategame dpr builds in the game. I probably wouldn't play this unless I rolled stats for it. It likely can be made a little more functional by not going so high in damage (so dont max cha)

[Dork_Forge]

I thought i'd do a dpr comparison of two builds.

Build1: Bog standard slightly unoptimized Bladedancer: initial stats at lvl 9: 8 18 14 20 8 8. (We use Tashas variant elf + EA feat). Asi(4): int*2, Asi(8): dex*2, Asi(12): Dex*2
So ends with dex/int 20/20. This build casts booming blade and shadowblade at max rank. I have given 50% rider damage to BB.

Build2: Arcane archer: Wiz1/hex1/wiz16/fighter2. Half-elf initial stats at lvl 9: 8 14 13 13 8 20 Asi(5):cha Asi (8): XBE, ASI(12): Agonizing blast, ASI(16) Stats, EA, Warcaster or ResCon

This build casts spirit shroud at max rank. Uses hex's curse.

As usual I will assume a round of prebuff and ignore complications like how Shroud and Shadowblade are both bonus actions (I use a variant rule where a bonus action spell can be cast as an action if you choose). Alternatively you can stagger the casts between rounds, it just serves to muddle the math. Build1 shrouds + dances, build 2 shrouds + hexcurse.

So DPR comparison against AC 16 (using Ludics calculator).
Lvl 9: Build 1 (37.8/57.3) Build 2 (38.6/54)

Lvl 13: Build 1 (57.3/78) Build 2 (85.3/114)

Lvl 15: Build 1 (64.9/88.2) Build 2 (103/139)

So we see what happens here.. The first build is a good bit better at 9 b/c of how advantage works with shadowblade. It also is much less MAD and has actual high int so spells aren't limited to being buffs or utility (without spell dc saves). It also has much better AC and a few more hps.

Build 2 is probably not going to use bladesong much. It likely wears a shield, doesn't cast spells in combat unless it drops the hand xbow and wears light or medium armor (depending on if we decide to not bladesong). It starts off ok damage wise, but boy does it ramp up in tier 3 and especially tier 4. By lvl 20, its doing ~180/231 without using Simalcrum and might be one of the higher lategame dpr builds in the game. I probably wouldn't play this unless I rolled stats for it. It likely can be made a little more functional by not going so high in damage (so dont max cha)

How is build 2 using a hand crossbow and wearing a shield?

[CMCC]

Yeah you need pact of the blade to have a ranged hex weapon.

[Hael]

Build2 does not use hexwarrior it’s just 1d6+2 +curse pro bonus +SS and with atk =pro +2 for the handxbow. Eldritch blast gets the full atk bonus at lvl 13 so 1d10 +11 + SS

The handxbow could be a spear with Pam instead. It’s just for attack stacking with SS. But yea I’d use the shield with the spear in melee, and just handxbow 2h to have the cast at range. Something like that.

[Dork_Forge]

Build2 does not use hexwarrior it’s just 1d6+2 +curse pro bonus +SS and with atk =pro +2 for the handxbow. Eldritch blast gets the full atk bonus at lvl 13 so 1d10 +11 + SS

The handxbow could be a spear with Pam instead. It’s just for attack stacking with SS

How is build 2 wearing a shield and loading a hand crossbow?

[Hael]

Actually if shield or quarterstaff/spear + Pam that doesn’t work so well bc EB has disadvantage at 5’. So yea, handxbow 2h and no shield. Rely on shield spell in a pinch. 17ac + shield spell at 10feet is ok.

Reading the description of spell shroud makes it seem like spell sniper would not be applicable which is ashamed bc 20 feet would be much better

[CMCC]

Whoa whoa whoa - with haste can you use two booming blades as mentioned in the other bladesinger thread?

You can use the haste action to use a single attack. So, can you sub that out with the extra attack feature? That doesn't seem right to me.

[Deathtongue]

Whoa whoa whoa - with haste can you use two booming blades as mentioned in the other bladesinger thread?

You can use the haste action to use a single attack. So, can you sub that out with the extra attack feature? That doesn't seem right to me.

Hi, that was me. Here's the wording I'm going off of the leak document (I don't want to link directly, but you can find it on Reddit (https://old.reddit.com/r/dndleaks/comments/jmts8u/the_entire_tashas_cauldron_of_everything_leak_in/)).


You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

The Haste spell gives you an extra action that can be used for the Attack action. The Haste spell limits you for taking multiple attacks with Extra Attack, but it doesn't do anything about replacing one of your attacks with a cantrip.

[Dork_Forge]

Hi, that was me. Here's the wording I'm going off of the leak document (I don't want to link directly, but you can find it on Reddit (https://old.reddit.com/r/dndleaks/comments/jmts8u/the_entire_tashas_cauldron_of_everything_leak_in/)).


The Haste spell gives you an extra action that can be used for the Attack action. The Haste spell limits you for taking multiple attacks with Extra Attack, but it doesn't do anything about replacing one of your attacks with a cantrip.

I don't think this quite jives, the Extra Attack feature calls out that you can attack twice instead of once and you can sub in a cantrip instead of one of those attacks, combined with the specific over general in the Haste spell.

For nova cantrip use though the metamagic adept feat would let you quicken an additional casting.

[Deathtongue]

I don't think this quite jives, the Extra Attack feature calls out that you can attack twice instead of once and you can sub in a cantrip instead of one of those attacks, combined with the specific over general in the Haste spell.Are you claiming that if I was hit by a Slow spell, I couldn't use a cantrip with one of those attacks? 'One of those attacks' doesn't imply a minimum number attacks in order to work.

[Gtdead]

While I can't find something wrong with Deathtongue's reading, Tasha isn't out and we don't have the exact description. I get the sense that this new ability will be extremely limited. For now the most I would assume, is to replace a single attack (granted by the attack action to which extra attack feature applies) with a cantrip, once per turn.

The description we have right now could very well mean that we can cast 2 BBs per attack action (I don't see any limitation like "once per turn"), and another with haste for a total of 3. This doesn't really sound ok to me. If it holds true then screw BB, just cast firebolts from range. At lvl 5 the hasted BS would be able to deal 6d10 dmg with firebolts. We don't even have a limitation on having to be "wizard cantrip if you catch my drift :P

[Mr Adventurer]

Are you claiming that if I was hit by a Slow spell, I couldn't use a cantrip with one of those attacks? 'One of those attacks' doesn't imply a minimum number attacks in order to work.

I'm a different poster but I'd agree with that, yes. But it doesn't matter: if you were going to spend an action on Attack, get one attack (because of Slow), and sub that attack out for a Cantrip - then that's the same as taking the Cast a Spell action to cast the Cantrip anyway, right?

[Deathtongue]

I'm getting the wording from that leaked document in my previous link.
https://old.reddit.com/r/dndleaks/comments/jmts8u/the_entire_tashas_cauldron_of_everything_leak_in/


I'm a different poster but I'd agree with that, yes. But it doesn't matter: if you were going to spend an action on Attack, get one attack (because of Slow), and sub that attack out for a Cantrip - then that's the same as taking the Cast a Spell action to cast the Cantrip anyway, right?Yes, but with Haste you could do things like, say, Mind Sliver with your Hasted action and then Blindness/Deafness with your regular Action. Or Single Attack + Booming Blade + Blade Ward. If you just want to do Booming Blade/Blade Ward + Two Attacks, you can still do it.

[Valmark]

I feel like this feature shouldn't allow you to bypass Haste's restriction- it doesn't let you Cast a Spell and using the Hasted Attack instead of it seems cheesy.

I could just be biased because already the Bladesinger will be Eldritch Knighting better then the Eldritch Knight apparently and I don't like feeding it more power.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, but with Haste you could do things like, say, Mind Sliver with your Hasted action and then Blindness/Deafness with your regular Action. Or Single Attack + Booming Blade + Blade Ward. If you just want to do Booming Blade/Blade Ward + Two Attacks, you can still do it.

Perhaps.

I actually think that doesn't work for a different reason: the Haste spell specifies "one weapon attack only".

[Dork_Forge]

Are you claiming that if I was hit by a Slow spell, I couldn't use a cantrip with one of those attacks? 'One of those attacks' doesn't imply a minimum number attacks in order to work.

No, I'm saying that to me I read the Extra Attack feature as modifying those attacks that it interacts with, Extra Attack doesn't interact with the Haste attack, which sets it's own restriction.

Personally I wouldn't allow it on both basis, if you think Extra Attack allows it to work on a Haste action, I'd see why, but then have to ask why is it trumping the restriction defined in the spell?

[Mr Adventurer]

I could just be biased because already the Bladesinger will be Eldritch Knighting better then the Eldritch Knight apparently and I don't like feeding it more power.

I'm already thinking about how to give the same ability to EKs as a house rule... Delightful synergy with Extra Attack 2 and 3.

Regardless of that, though, I'll also be interested in some thinking about how the ability can be used with non-attack cantrips!

[CMCC]

I added the exact wording to the OP. It's kind of buried in the thread at this point.

BS:
Extra Attack
“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”

This wording reads to me that only one of the two attacks given by the extra attack feature can be subbed with a cantrip. The word "those" is key here.

[Gignere]

I added the exact wording to the OP. It's kind of buried in the thread at this point.

BS:
Extra Attack
“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”

This wording reads to me that only one of the two attacks given by the extra attack feature can be subbed with a cantrip. The word "those" is key here.

I agree and so shouldn’t work with haste, anyhow haste has its own restrictions on what the hasted action can be used for. The more specific wording should dominate and this case restrictions on haste obviously is more specific than a bladesinger ability.

Yeah EK war magic should probably be changed to match the Bladesinger wording.

[Gtdead]

I added the exact wording to the OP. It's kind of buried in the thread at this point.

BS:
Extra Attack
“You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the attack action on your turn. Moreover you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.”

This wording reads to me that only one of the two attacks given by the extra attack feature can be subbed with a cantrip. The word "those" is key here.

Technically speaking, the ability specifies only that you can swap one for another. So you can swap 2 attacks with 2 cantrips, and if you have action surge, 4 attacks with 4 cantrips and so on. Which leads me to believe that either the leak doesn't have the exact wording, or it's not RAI.

Edit: On rereading what you said, you were probably talking about haste only, but in any case I don't think that casting 2 cantrips per action is going to make it into the game.

[Valmark]

I'm already thinking about how to give the same ability to EKs as a house rule... Delightful synergy with Extra Attack 2 and 3.

Regardless of that, though, I'll also be interested in some thinking about how the ability can be used with non-attack cantrips!

Let's see...
- Blade Ward to get Resistance while attacking for istance;
- Chill Touch against undeads to give them disadvantage (although this is still attacking);
- One might actually want to use True Strike this way. I don't think so, but it might work;
- On the same vein of Chill Touch you have Frostbite;
- as a ranged Bladesinger you could make use of Mold Earth, Gust, Infestation and Thunderclap (Thunderwave? the cantrip version I mean) to keep people away jus like as a melee you could use Lightning Lure to drag people towards you if you can't quite reach;

If you were with more then three enemies one could use stuff like Swordburst, unsure how good that would be instead of focusing on one.

[Mr Adventurer]

Technically speaking, the ability specifies only that you can swap one for another. So you can swap 2 attacks with 2 cantrips, and if you have action surge, 4 attacks with 4 cantrips and so on.

I don't read it that way, no. One attack.


Let's see...
- Blade Ward to get Resistance while attacking for istance;
- Chill Touch against undeads to give them disadvantage (although this is still attacking);
- One might actually want to use True Strike this way. I don't think so, but it might work;
- On the same vein of Chill Touch you have Frostbite;
- as a ranged Bladesinger you could make use of Mold Earth, Gust, Infestation and Thunderclap (Thunderwave? the cantrip version I mean) to keep people away jus like as a melee you could use Lightning Lure to drag people towards you if you can't quite reach;

If you were with more then three enemies one could use stuff like Swordburst, unsure how good that would be instead of focusing on one.

Some interesting things there! Lightning Lure as an opener is a great one.

True Strike only applies next round but you could potentially want to set yourself up for the following round. Hard to say. Maybe if your Action Surge was to cast Haste?

Thunderclap doesn't push sadly - just AoE adjacent enemies.

What else... Prestidigitation or Control Flames to snuff out their torch, making it dark for advantage?

[Valmark]

I don't read it that way, no. One attack.



Some interesting things there! Lightning Lure as an opener is a great one.

True Strike only applies next round but you could potentially want to set yourself up for the following round. Hard to say. Maybe if your Action Surge was to cast Haste?

Thunderclap doesn't push sadly - just AoE adjacent enemies.

What else... Prestidigitation or Control Flames to snuff out their torch, making it dark for advantage?

Right, Prestidigitation and Control Flames could do that too.

While you can't freeze creatures Shape Water could be used to create an obstacle freezing water- or you could make the water push against the target, either to get them closer or farther.
Underwater, at least.

[Gignere]

I don't read it that way, no. One attack.



Some interesting things there! Lightning Lure as an opener is a great one.

True Strike only applies next round but you could potentially want to set yourself up for the following round. Hard to say. Maybe if your Action Surge was to cast Haste?

Thunderclap doesn't push sadly - just AoE adjacent enemies.

What else... Prestidigitation or Control Flames to snuff out their torch, making it dark for advantage?

The messed up thing is that True Strike takes up concentration so you can’t even do the haste combo with action surge. As written True Strike is basically useless, a waste of ink.

[Gtdead]

Minor illusion is a potent one, haste yourself, attack 2 times and create cover. Repeat. Peekaboo

[Gignere]

Minor illusion is a potent one, haste yourself, attack 2 times and create cover. Repeat. Peekaboo

Wow that’s a good one. I didn’t even think of it. Certainly at least one attack is going to be made with disadvantage.

[Mr Adventurer]

This is basically an action economy boon on a par with Cunning Action, isn't it - maybe even Fast Hands. The range and flexibility of available Cantrips has a massive impact on the effect of this ability.

Another point in favour of the Arcane Trickster multiclass: you can get out your Mage Hand as part of an attack (still with the opportunity to land your sneak attack) and start using your bonus action to control the hand. Huge boon.

[Gignere]

This is basically an action economy boon on a par with Cunning Action, isn't it - maybe even Fast Hands. The range and flexibility of available Cantrips has a massive impact on the effect of this ability.

Another point in favour of the Arcane Trickster multiclass: you can get out your Mage Hand as part of an attack (still with the opportunity to land your sneak attack) and start using your bonus action to control the hand. Huge boon.

Yeah I can’t wait to level up my current character and multi into Bladesinger as a current rogue/AT. With both cunning action and this extra attack becoming a cantrip this is going to be so great. Yes the AT/BS DPR may not be the best but the options during combat will make it into a total beast.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah I can’t wait to level up my current character and multi into Bladesinger as a current rogue/AT. With both cunning action and this extra attack becoming a cantrip this is going to be so great. Yes the AT/BS DPR may not be the best but the options during combat will make it into a total beast.

6 levels is quite the commitment for a full-time AT, though it's probably still worth considering; however 3 levels of AT for a Bladesinger to get that practically-always invisible bonus action Mage Hand is mighty tempting for some character concepts, I bet.

[Deathtongue]

6 levels is quite the commitment for a full-time AT, though it's probably still worth considering; however 3 levels of AT for a Bladesinger to get that practically-always invisible bonus action Mage Hand is mighty tempting for some character concepts, I bet.I'm not so sure about the synergy. The Bladesinger and the Arcane Trickster are already subject to serious bonus action clog what with between Bladesong, OG Cunning Action, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any magical item activations.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm not so sure about the synergy. The Bladesinger and the Arcane Trickster are already subject to serious bonus action clog what with between Bladesong, OG Cunning Action, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any magical item activations.

I don't like to assume Shadow Blade, as I've already complained elsewhere, nor would I assume TWF, for a couple of other reasons.

If you're using Misty Step, you probably don't need to use Cunning Action - and vice-versa.

But yes.

Edit: also though, normally the action cost to even have Mage Hand in a combat is 1 action - a huge downside. This lets you integrate a core AT feature into your combat routine in a practically seamless way. As someone currently playing an AT, this feels huge to that class.

[Gignere]

I'm not so sure about the synergy. The Bladesinger and the Arcane Trickster are already subject to serious bonus action clog what with between Bladesong, OG Cunning Action, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Misty Step, Shadow Blade, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any magical item activations.

TWF is basically something I don’t do unless the fight is quite easy but yes there will be some bonus action clog but for the most part it should be manageable since two of those all you really need is to turn it on once or if you get lucky even prebuff them (Bladesong and Shadowblade).

Once you’re buffed with those your bonus action options will be identical to your typical AT. I personally prefer more options to less, I rather manage the clog than not have the option available.

[Deathtongue]

I don't like to assume Shadow Blade, as I've already complained elsewhere, nor would I assume TWF, for a couple of other reasons.TWF you can live without, though it's a nice bonus to have once magical items/Tenser's Transformation/Spirit Shroud come into play. But I'm puzzled why you don't like to assume Shadow Blade. It's extremely effective in the level range you get it (levels 3 to 7) and easy on spell slots. Unless my DM gave me something really cool like a Flametongue Shortsword, Shadow Blade would be and in fact is my go-to tactic for kicking ass while saving spell slots.


If you're using Misty Step, you probably don't need to use Cunning Action - and vice-versa.What does a Bladesinger need Cunning Action for, exactly? The few times you need to disengage can be covered by Misty Step / Thunder Step. Unlike an Arcane Trickster (or other rogues), you have the mojo to go toe-to-toe with your enemies unless you're playing something like SKT in early T2 or your DM is brutal with long rests.

And yes, there are occasions in which Cunning Action can save your neck when your Bladesinger spell slots don't. Was it worth the loss of three levels, though? For example, let's say you started as Bladesinger 6 and then took three levels into Arcane Trickster. You miss out on a badly-needed ASI and Two 4th and one 5th-level spell slots, along with the spells known. And that's as good as it gets for you. Late T2 is when wizard spells start getting downright amazing. I mean stuff like Animate Objects and Wall of Force and Transmute Rock. And then later Mass Suggestion, Contingency, Investiture of Stone.

And that's the best-case scenario. If you MC at Bladesinger level 4 or level 8, you miss out on even more goodies.

[Mr Adventurer]

TWF you can live without, though it's a nice bonus to have once magical items/Tenser's Transformation/Spirit Shroud come into play. But I'm puzzled why you don't like to assume Shadow Blade. It's extremely effective in the level range you get it (levels 3 to 7) and easy on spell slots. Unless my DM gave me something really cool like a Flametongue Shortsword, Shadow Blade would be and in fact is my go-to tactic for kicking ass while saving spell slots.

That's why: it's an optimal tactic for damage output. I don't like to assume optimal tactics for damage output. I prefer to aim for tactics which hit a balance point between fun and effectiveness.

Having played an AT, I know that Cunning Action and Ranged Legerdemain are fun for me.

(In particular, Shadow Blade is so good at what it does that it's a permanent fixture. This, to me, indicates that it's probably "too good", and so I mentally file it away as a tactic to use in play only sometimes.)


What does a Bladesinger need Cunning Action for, exactly?

It doesn't. It's a Wizard and basically needs nothing to be dominant.

My point is more about multiclasses that deliver value in terms of fun and effectiveness both, where effectiveness includes both the damage element of the contribution to combat, and the non-damage elements, and the delivery of the character concept.

If you have a character concept that is well served by an AT/BS multiclass, then there now are additional synergies that are likely to better deliver that concept. These synergies are new, so I'm excited about them.


The few times you need to disengage can be covered by Misty Step / Thunder Step. Unlike an Arcane Trickster (or other rogues), you have the mojo to go toe-to-toe with your enemies unless you're playing something like SKT in early T2 or your DM is brutal with long rests.

And yes, there are occasions in which Cunning Action can save your neck when your Bladesinger spell slots don't. Was it worth the loss of three levels, though? For example, let's say you started as Bladesinger 6 and then took three levels into Arcane Trickster. You miss out on a badly-needed ASI and Two 4th and one 5th-level spell slots, along with the spells known. And that's as good as it gets for you. Late T2 is when wizard spells start getting downright amazing. I mean stuff like Animate Objects and Wall of Force and Transmute Rock. And then later Mass Suggestion, Contingency, Investiture of Stone.

And that's the best-case scenario. If you MC at Bladesinger level 4 or level 8, you miss out on even more goodies.

If your point is "multiclassing out of Wizard will give you a mechanically weaker result", I'm not going to argue that.

If you're playing a character who, for example, is an Arcane Trickster, and you delve 6 levels into BS to get that multiattack ability, you're now playing a substantially multiclassed character - more than a dip - and the character should be assessed on those merits, not "is it better than a straight Wizard". That's a losing proposition at the best of times.

If you're a BS and dip to Arcane Trickster 3, you had your reasons. Those reasons are now better served than ever.

[Flik9999]

What about these builds


Tank:
Cavalier 3, bladesinger 6

Stats: Str or Dex 16 (doesnt matter as wont be using bladesinging anyway.), con 16, int 14
Gear: Longsword or rapier, shield, platemail
Fighting style: Defensive
Level 9 AC 21 (platemail+1, shield, defensive style) / 26 with shield spell

Spells
Haste: +2 AC
Blur: disadvantage on all attacks
Booming blade: If they move bit of extra damage
Bladeward: Half damage


Feats: Sentinal, toughness

Use sword and shield for high AC, if something does get through just cast shield to turn it into a miss. You can now booming blade and bladeward. If they move away they provoke opportunity attack and booming blade goes boom. If they attack they probably wont hit and if they do there not gonna do much
damage. Attacking someone else provokes sentinal and is at disadvantage.

Doesn't have the HP of a barbarian tank but with access to a lot of shield slots is very unlikely to be hit.


DPS
Paladin 2, Bladesinger 6

Stats: Str 16 (doesnt matter as wont be using bladesinging anyway.), con 16, int 14
Gear: Halberd +1, platemail
Fighting style: Defensive
Feats: Greatweapon figher, PAM

Standard polearm fighter, you will be at 5ft range which you kinda need to be for DPR anyway as I don't think you can flank from 10ft.
Smash stuff with greenflame blade and use spell slots for smiting. Can also fireball stuff and cast haste on itself if needed. More squishy than
most melee but can wear plate so should be ok. Keep a few level 1 slots for shield just incase.

Spells:
Greenflame blade: +1D8 damage per tier, more on 2 targets


Damage:
Attack 1: 1D10+14
Attack 2: 1D10+14 +1D8 (greenflame blade)
Attack 3: 1D10+14 (haste)
Attack 4: 1D4+14
+smites on hit



Both of these builds can also fall back into being a standard wizard and throw fireballs out if they want to.

[Alek]

Been 3 months now and my blade singer is at lvl4.

Not using TWF as I like to keep a hand free for Absorb elements, shield etc.

Now that I'm close to lvl 5 I need to choose lvl 3 spells
Not so sure about Haste as I use a lot Shadowblade and at lvl5 I'll get my second attack.
Slow or fly might be a good option.

Spirit Shrouds is nice too especially cause tanking (me and the Paladin are in front) that -10feet of speed is quite interesting.

Once at lvl6 I'll start enjoying the full potential of this new Bladesinger

Not planning at all on going multiclass wiz is too powerful to lose it

[Gale]

DPS
Paladin 2, Bladesinger 6

Stats: Str 16 (doesnt matter as wont be using bladesinging anyway.), con 16, int 14
Gear: Halberd +1, platemail
Fighting style: Defensive
Feats: Greatweapon figher, PAM

Great Weapon Master is a tricky feat. One of the drawbacks people often miss is that it can actually cause you to do less damage if the target's AC is too high. This is especially true the higher your base damage is. Basically, the more base damage you do per hit the worse GWM is. It's better to ensure your divine smites always hit than to sometimes hit really hard.

To go more in depth, I punched the numbers you gave here into LucidSavant's DPR Calculator, (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)) assumed you did a Level 1 smite on every hit, and that you were fighting a typical CR 8 monster (AC 16.) I found that on average you actually do about 5 less damage per round if you choose to use Great Weapon Master. You would need to find a monster with 13 AC or lower to actually get value out of the feat. For reference, there is one CR 8 monster in the Monster Manual with a 13 AC, that being the T-Rex. Even when you're fighting monsters with low AC the damage increases from GWM aren't actually all that great. It's only about 2 extra damage per round at AC 13, 4 extra damage at AC 12, etc.

Having advantage does let GWM work more like you would expect. But it's still not as great as you would think. You do about 50 damage per round without using GWM. If you have advantage and activate GWM then you do 74.5 damage; but if you don't use GWM then you still do 70 damage. Meaning even with advantage GWM is only a net increase of 4.5 damage per round for this build.

Hence, I think a better build would be to use a Quarterstaff instead. It works with PAM and we can use it one-handed along with a shield for more AC than before. (We could technically ditch the shield and use Bladesong instead but low dexterity and intelligence makes this a pretty bad choice.) Since our AC is a little higher now I'm going to substitute out Defensive for Dueling, and since we can't use GWM either we'll just bump up Strength to 18.

Now we do about 57 damage per round. It's more damage and we now have a shield we can easily upgrade to a +1 or replace it with a Sentinel Shield for advantage on initiative. (Both items are only Uncommon, meaning they shouldn't be too hard to find. Compared to +1 Armor which is Rare.) I'd also highly consider taking War Caster instead of increasing your strength score. It not only gives you advantage on concentration checks, meaning you'll be far less likely to fail them and lose your precious Haste, but also lets you smack any enemy that approaches your Wizard with Green-Flame Blade. RAW you can attack with any spell you want here, as long as it only targets a single person. Jeremy Crawford did say this isn't intended. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/19/war-caster-feat/) But his tweets are no longer official rulings, so go nuts.

In short, your build is great if you can manage to get advantage all the time. But Wizard doesn't have an easy way to do that by themselves, especially if they plan on casting Haste. An owl familiar can get you advantage on one attack, but you'll definitely need more than that. Hence, I think ditching GWM is probably the best idea. You'll get a lot more value out of an ability increase or a feat like War Caster than you will Great Weapon Master, in my opinion.

Sorry I don't have anything to say about your Cavalier build, but I accidentally spent... way too much time on this post already.

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot to mention if your table is following the normal multiclassing rules then you need to meet ability score prerequisites for both your current class and the new one. In other words, if you want to be a Paladin Wizard then you need at least STR 13, INT 13, and CHA 13. It's doable, but it'll mean you will have to settle for a 14 constitution instead of 16 if you're using standard point buy and a Variant Human.

[Mr Adventurer]

Use sword and shield for high AC, if something does get through just cast shield to turn it into a miss. You can now booming blade and bladeward. If they move away they provoke opportunity attack and booming blade goes boom. If they attack they probably wont hit and if they do there not gonna do much
damage.

What do you mean? You can only cast 1 cantrip per Extra Attack. Do you mean:

Turn 1: Extra Attack - 1x melee attack, cast Blade Ward
Turn 2: Extra Attack - 1x melee attack, cast Booming Blade, move away. Blade Ward ends at end of turn.

[Valmark]

What do you mean? You can only cast 1 cantrip per Extra Attack. Do you mean:

Turn 1: Extra Attack - 1x melee attack, cast Blade Ward
Turn 2: Extra Attack - 1x melee attack, cast Booming Blade, move away. Blade Ward ends at end of turn.

Wouldn't it be casting one of the with the Haste Attack?

[Mr Adventurer]

Wouldn't it be casting one of the with the Haste Attack?

Ah. Whether that's possible is debated, and I didn't see it called out in the tactic.

[Willywilliamrtx]

On the subject of "Can hasted action be a cantrip?".

This would depend on the answer for the following questions:

1. What happens when Extra Attack and Haste interact with each other?
a. Extra Attack resolves without adding extra attacks. (Overwritten)
b. Extra Attack is negated/ignored altogether.
2. Why does Haste specify "One weapon attack"?
a. Because per general rules the only type of attack you can make with the Attack Action is a weapon attack (Shove and Grapple are specifics as they ignore the "Resolve the Attack" paragraph of the "Making an Attack" rulings).
b. Because Haste hard-sets you into making a single attack, specifically with a weapon regardless of any other features that might be able to change this.
3. In case of question 2 being a; can the weapon attack from Haste be replaced by a Shove/Grapple?
a. Yes; Shove and Grapple are specific rulings that let you replace a weapon attack.
b. No; Haste has its own vacuumed rulings that bar any other feature from changing it or adding riders to it.

If all three answers are a; your hasted attack can be replaced by a Cantrip through the use of Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature.
If your list of answers is ANYTHING else; you're fresh out of luck - your hasted attack has to be an attack made with a weapon specifically (or an Unarmed Strike).

[Valmark]

On the subject of "Can hasted action be a cantrip?".

This would depend on the answer for the following questions:

1. What happens when Extra Attack and Haste interact with each other?
a. Extra Attack resolves without adding extra attacks. (Overwritten)
b. Extra Attack is negated/ignored altogether.
2. Why does Haste specify "One weapon attack"?
a. Because per general rules the only type of attack you can make with the Attack Action is a weapon attack (Shove and Grapple are specifics as they ignore the "Resolve the Attack" paragraph of the "Making an Attack" rulings).
b. Because Haste hard-sets you into making a single attack, specifically with a weapon regardless of any other features that might be able to change this.
3. In case of question 2 being a; can the weapon attack from Haste be replaced by a Shove/Grapple?
a. Yes; Shove and Grapple are specific rulings that let you replace a weapon attack.
b. No; Haste has its own vacuumed rulings that bar any other feature from changing it or adding riders to it.

If all three answers are a; your hasted attack can be replaced by a Cantrip through the use of Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature.
If your list of answers is ANYTHING else; you're fresh out of luck - your hasted attack has to be an attack made with a weapon specifically (or an Unarmed Strike).

To be fair the reply to 2 can also be B, since Bladesinger could just overwrite Haste.

Also I kinda think A is always wrong since the rules don't actually call out a weapon attack specifically, do they?

[Willywilliamrtx]

To be fair the reply to 2 can also be B, since Bladesinger could just overwrite Haste.

Also I kinda think A is always wrong since the rules don't actually call out a weapon attack specifically, do they?

Mechanically speaking there is no "Attack" attack. There are Weapon and Spell attacks. The only thing solely specified as just "Attack" is the Attack Action. Or if one would want to argue that "Attack" is the most generalized mechanical term for every kind of attack you can make - The Attack Action still limits you to the Weapon Attack category - as the Spell Attack category falls under the "Cast a Spell" action instead of the Attack Action.

Edit: Shove and Grapple do exist - BUT they are specific rulings (specific trumps general, but both Extra Attack and Haste fall under "specific", hence the entire argument in the first place), because they completely bypass one of the terms of the "Making an Attack" rule: Resolving your Attack with an attack roll.

As for 2 possibly being B; There's already a overwhelmingly shared consensus that Haste overrules Extra Attack, because Haste specifies ONE attack (to imply you only get one attack regardless of how many you'd normally have when taking the Attack Action). And outside of that answer B for 2 includes "regardless of any feature that might try to change that"; already implying Bladesinger's Extra Attack feature could in no way affect the extra Attack Action you gain from Haste.

All in all it boils down to HOW Extra Attack interacts with Haste and how "One Weapon Attack" is interpreted within the rules of the game.