Advance Combat Proficiency: Expanding Martials in 5e

[Solid_Snek]

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/GUgwbAAbRdBf


It's a bit weird that combat martial combat is pushed aside in 5e for the sake of "speeding up the game" but magical combat is explored quite a bit... Even though magic slows down the game much more. I pulled over some DMG options because, again, martials aren't what slows the game down and they need more than "I move and hit" in combat. Imagine if all casters had was cantrips!

Plus, I think book nerds and piety chasers were too busy to learn to perform the same way in combat as even a first level barbarian or rogue, even outside their class features. Cast a spell is gated off to some classes without feats at first level so I see the same thing with combat options.

So I decided to expand the Combat Action section of the game a bit. Most of the rules only show that classes with ACP are better while some rules are just gated off (using Wisdom as a ranged attack, 3e was a fun edition).

I'm thinking of pulling Paladin and Monk off the list of full ACP (advance combat proficiency) and giving them only specific pieces since their classes are pretty good and have access to magic from early on (the Ranger isn't a very well made class, giving it some pity).

Now, some things can be learned and the feats represent this along with giving ACP classes some additional options. If you have a martial inclined Cleric, it can learn some better combat. You can grab Improved Disarm or Opportunity Proficiency.

At the end of the day this is a buff to all martials, doesn't change too many specific rules, and isn't also a straight up buff to casters.

Changes: Paladin and Monk have become limited ACP classes. Open Hand, Valor, and Blade Pact subclasses gain limited ACP.

I suggest Savage Attack as a bonus feat for martials, at least mechanically, as it shows they're better with weapons.

[SandyAndy]

I like the idea of martials having some more proficiencies stat wise. Something like the current Martial weapons vs Simple weapons split. Maybe from there you can get expertise in something more specific, like Martial Weapons Expert (Swords). I think that would help the martials keep up with the casters in terms of power level without making them too OP.

Someone commented elsewhere with an idea that I really like. Break up the spellcasting over a few turns. Like pick your spell roll your damage the first turn, then pick your target and roll to hit the second. Or make each component (verbal, somatic, material) cost an action and add an action to cast it at a higher level. That makes the magic users take less time per turn and also keeps them from getting so OP that they're crushing enemies faster than the martials and meat shield.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Someone commented elsewhere with an idea that I really like. Break up the spellcasting over a few turns. Like pick your spell roll your damage the first turn, then pick your target and roll to hit the second. Or make each component (verbal, somatic, material) cost an action and add an action to cast it at a higher level. That makes the magic users take less time per turn and also keeps them from getting so OP that they're crushing enemies faster than the martials and meat shield.

Uhh... This would make casters unplayable.

It would be boring since you would act maybe once or twice a combat since combat lasts, by the book, 3 to 5 turns.

Making Martials special doesn't mean we should make casters worse.

[SandyAndy]

So in my games, I make spells a lot more dangerous and that causes the party to be more strategic about the use of their spells. My fights usually take 8 to 10 rounds and the casters will usually only be firing 3 or 4 times during that fight. They've never complained about it and a couple of them have told me they like having to really think about using their magic before they go for it.

I haven't tried making the casters use 2 or 3 actions per spell so it might not work. But I don't think it would break them completely. I've played martials that would never even get to close with the enemy because the casters were obliterating the enemies before I could get there, so I see where you're coming from. I just don't think casters have to fire every round to feel powerful. They can skip a turn or two and still be the centerpiece of a fight. I'm gonna try breaking up spells over multiple actions and see how it goes. Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't.

[Solid_Snek]

So in my games, I make spells a lot more dangerous and that causes the party to be more strategic about the use of their spells. My fights usually take 8 to 10 rounds and the casters will usually only be firing 3 or 4 times during that fight. They've never complained about it and a couple of them have told me they like having to really think about using their magic before they go for it.

I haven't tried making the casters use 2 or 3 actions per spell so it might not work. But I don't think it would break them completely. I've played martials that would never even get to close with the enemy because the casters were obliterating the enemies before I could get there, so I see where you're coming from. I just don't think casters have to fire every round to feel powerful. They can skip a turn or two and still be the centerpiece of a fight. I'm gonna try breaking up spells over multiple actions and see how it goes. Maybe it works and maybe it doesn't.

I really wouldn't want to change the game that much.

As it is, you can still have your longer than average combat, but you can have shorter combat too.

I like the idea of spells taking longer for a single player videogame but not for a multiplayer table top game. Which, giving Martials access to more bonus actions somewhat does this as they get to act more within the same time that a caster typically would. So, in a way, giving martials bonus actions is making spells take longer.

I think the worst thing for a player to do is have nothing to do. Ever see a player who isn't into roleplay suffer through a roleplaying section of a game? Or a PC that got knocked out or killed causes the player to sit around and twiddle their thumbs. It sucks as a player and as a DM to see that happen. Rather have players engaged than not.

[SandyAndy]

I think the worst thing for a player to do is have nothing to do. Ever see a player who isn't into roleplay suffer through a roleplaying section of a game? Or a PC that got knocked out or killed causes the player to sit around and twiddle their thumbs. It sucks as a player and as a DM to see that happen. Rather have players engaged than not.

I agree. I don't like making players sit around with nothing to do. I haven't tried making spells more action intensive, it's an idea I saw that I'd like to try just to see how it works out. The way I do it, my casters do skip turns but they do it by choice. They're weighing the cost vs benefit of firing that spell and picking the right moment to do so. I think that's why they don't have a problem with it. They aren't marking time, waiting for their next turn. They are actively engaged, trying to set up just the right moment to strike. It really fits how a wizard or druid would fight. Maximum effect for minimal effort.

[olskool]

I use No Proficiency, Basic Proficiency, and Martial Proficiency in my modded 5e campaign. This is basically a "throwback" to AD&D.

NO PROFICIENCY: The PC has no effective training in the weapon. They log a -2 To Hit... BUT, they can use their Characteristic Bonuses as a form of "Natural Talent" to offset the lack of training.

BASIC PROFICIENCY: The PC can attack and defend in a limited fashion but doesn't have "In-Depth Training" on the subtleties of that weapon system. They get to apply their Characteristic Bonuses and have NO PENALTIES to attack... BUT, they CANNOT use their PROFICIENCY BONUS on their To Hit Roll. In addition, due to a lack of that in-depth training, they will not improve in their chance To Hit unless their Characteristic Bonus improves. Additionally, the PC with only a Basic Proficiency CANNOT take Weapon Feats unless they purchase/acquire either The SKILLED FEAT and take MARTIAL PROFICIENCY in a weapon as that Skill or they take The WEAPONMASTER FEAT, which will give them either 4 Basic Weapon Proficiencies, 2 Martial Weapon Proficiencies, or allow the conversion of 4 Basic Proficiencies into 4 Martial Proficiencies. These two FEATS are how "non-martials" can get Martial Proficiency. Basic Proficiency is the DEFAULT PROFICIENCY for the bulk of NON-COMBAT CLASSES (Wizards, Sorcerers, etc...).

MARTIAL PROFICIENCY: This represents In-Depth Training in a given weapon type. Martial Proficiency allows the weapon user to include their PROFICIENCY BONUS with their Characteristic Bonus for a given weapon. Their skill with the weapon will continue to increase as their Proficiency Bonus increases with higher levels. The Martial Proficiency is also a prerequisite for all Weapon FEATS. I also allow those with Martial Proficiency to:

1) Choose to roll an additional Damage die in lieu of another attack against a SINGLE OPPONENT when they receive the multiple attacks per action capability. ie... a fighter that does 1D8+1 damage on a sword attack can attack TWO opponents or they can roll 2D8+2 against a single opponent instead.
2) Use a second attack they have to improve their AC by one in lieu of that added attack to simulate their improved attack and parry routine. High-level fighters with multiple attacks can earmark some attacks to AC and other attacks to Damage at their discretion.

PROFICIENCIES:

The Weapon Proficiencies are broken into Classes and the PC can use any weapon in a Proficiency Class. The Classes are:

1) Clubs, Maces, and Staves
2) Dagger & Swords
3) Axes & Hammers
4) Spears
5) Polearms
6) Flails, Whips, Chains, & Nets/Bolos
7) Bows
8) Slings
9) Firearms
10) Crossbows
11) Thrown Weapons
12) HTH Combat

Everyone gets Basic Proficiency in HTH Combat, Clubs, and Thrown Weapons right off the bat.


The number and type of Proficiencies vary by PC's Class:

Fighter: 5 Martial Proficiencies
Ranger: 4 Martial Proficiencies
Paladin: 2 Martial Proficiencies, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Barbarian: 3 Martial Proficiencies, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Monk: Martial Proficiency in HTH, 2 Martial Proficiencies, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Rogue: 1 Martial Proficiency, 3 Basic Proficiencies
Druid: 1 Martial Proficiency, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Cleric: 3 Basic Proficiencies (Gods of War grant 3 Martial Proficiencies)
Bard: 1 Martial Proficiency, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Wizard/Sorcerer: 1 Basic Proficiency
Warlock: 2 Basic Proficiencies

The above distribution of Proficiencies takes into account the amount of time the Class has to allot to both Weapon Skills and Magical Skills and favors the Classes that specialize in fighting with weapons.

[SandyAndy]

I use No Proficiency, Basic Proficiency, and Martial Proficiency in my modded 5e campaign. This is basically a "throwback" to AD&D.


I like this!

[JNAProductions]

I use No Proficiency, Basic Proficiency, and Martial Proficiency in my modded 5e campaign. This is basically a "throwback" to AD&D.

NO PROFICIENCY: The PC has no effective training in the weapon. They log a -2 To Hit... BUT, they can use their Characteristic Bonuses as a form of "Natural Talent" to offset the lack of training.

BASIC PROFICIENCY: The PC can attack and defend in a limited fashion but doesn't have "In-Depth Training" on the subtleties of that weapon system. They get to apply their Characteristic Bonuses and have NO PENALTIES to attack... BUT, they CANNOT use their PROFICIENCY BONUS on their To Hit Roll. In addition, due to a lack of that in-depth training, they will not improve in their chance To Hit unless their Characteristic Bonus improves. Additionally, the PC with only a Basic Proficiency CANNOT take Weapon Feats unless they purchase/acquire either The SKILLED FEAT and take MARTIAL PROFICIENCY in a weapon as that Skill or they take The WEAPONMASTER FEAT, which will give them either 4 Basic Weapon Proficiencies, 2 Martial Weapon Proficiencies, or allow the conversion of 4 Basic Proficiencies into 4 Martial Proficiencies. These two FEATS are how "non-martials" can get Martial Proficiency. Basic Proficiency is the DEFAULT PROFICIENCY for the bulk of NON-COMBAT CLASSES (Wizards, Sorcerers, etc...).

MARTIAL PROFICIENCY: This represents In-Depth Training in a given weapon type. Martial Proficiency allows the weapon user to include their PROFICIENCY BONUS with their Characteristic Bonus for a given weapon. Their skill with the weapon will continue to increase as their Proficiency Bonus increases with higher levels. The Martial Proficiency is also a prerequisite for all Weapon FEATS. I also allow those with Martial Proficiency to:

1) Choose to roll an additional Damage die in lieu of another attack against a SINGLE OPPONENT when they receive the multiple attacks per action capability. ie... a fighter that does 1D8+1 damage on a sword attack can attack TWO opponents or they can roll 2D8+2 against a single opponent instead.
2) Use a second attack they have to improve their AC by one in lieu of that added attack to simulate their improved attack and parry routine. High-level fighters with multiple attacks can earmark some attacks to AC and other attacks to Damage at their discretion.

PROFICIENCIES:

The Weapon Proficiencies are broken into Classes and the PC can use any weapon in a Proficiency Class. The Classes are:

1) Clubs, Maces, and Staves
2) Dagger & Swords
3) Axes & Hammers
4) Spears
5) Polearms
6) Flails, Whips, Chains, & Nets/Bolos
7) Bows
8) Slings
9) Firearms
10) Crossbows
11) Thrown Weapons
12) HTH Combat

Everyone gets Basic Proficiency in HTH Combat, Clubs, and Thrown Weapons right off the bat.


The number and type of Proficiencies vary by PC's Class:

Fighter: 5 Martial Proficiencies
Ranger: 4 Martial Proficiencies
Paladin: 2 Martial Proficiencies, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Barbarian: 3 Martial Proficiencies, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Monk: Martial Proficiency in HTH, 2 Martial Proficiencies, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Rogue: 1 Martial Proficiency, 3 Basic Proficiencies
Druid: 1 Martial Proficiency, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Cleric: 3 Basic Proficiencies (Gods of War grant 3 Martial Proficiencies)
Bard: 1 Martial Proficiency, 2 Basic Proficiencies
Wizard/Sorcerer: 1 Basic Proficiency
Warlock: 2 Basic Proficiencies

The above distribution of Proficiencies takes into account the amount of time the Class has to allot to both Weapon Skills and Magical Skills and favors the Classes that specialize in fighting with weapons.

So... The only buff I see is that you can trade attacks for AC. Technically I guess trading attacks for damage is a buff, if you can finagle advantage on one attack but not multiple, but...

This just seems like it'd either be largely irrelevant, or work as a nerf.

[Solid_Snek]

I agree. I don't like making players sit around with nothing to do. I haven't tried making spells more action intensive, it's an idea I saw that I'd like to try just to see how it works out. The way I do it, my casters do skip turns but they do it by choice. They're weighing the cost vs benefit of firing that spell and picking the right moment to do so. I think that's why they don't have a problem with it. They aren't marking time, waiting for their next turn. They are actively engaged, trying to set up just the right moment to strike. It really fits how a wizard or druid would fight. Maximum effect for minimal effort.

I think the best way to make the game perfect for casters is to make martials awesome. Then there will be no need to mess with casters as martials will be fine.

There's no reason to make casting more complicated.




So... The only buff I see is that you can trade attacks for AC. Technically I guess trading attacks for damage is a buff, if you can finagle advantage on one attack but not multiple, but...

This just seems like it'd either be largely irrelevant, or work as a nerf.

Nerf and makes things way too complicated for the sake of over complication it seems.

I'm all for changing things up and giving more detail but overcomplication isn't a good take.