Finally, a valid use for the Mystic Theurge

[Skyrender]

A weird theoretical gestalt build for 3.5e:

The Double Rainbow War-sssssssnake Charmer

1 Warmage 1/Beguiler 1 Armored Mage (Light), Trapfinding, Warmage Edge
2 Warmage 2/Beguiler 2 Cloaked Casting (+1 DC), Surprise Casting
3 Warmage 3/Beguiler 3 Advanced Learning (Beguiler), Advanced Learning (Warmage)
4 Warmage 4/Beguiler 4
5 Warmage 5/Beguiler 5 Silent Spell (B)
6 Warmage 6/Beguiler 6 Surprise Casting (Move Action)
7 Beguiler 7/Rainbow Servant 1 Detect Evil (Sp) at will, Extra Domain (Good); Advanced Learning (Beguiler)
8 Beguiler 8/Rainbow Servant 2 Cloaked Casting (+2 to overcome SR)
9 Beguiler 9/Rainbow Servant 3
10 Beguiler 10/Rainbow Servant 4 Extra Domain (Air), Grow Wings, Still Spell (B)
11 Warmage 7/Rainbow Servant 5 Sudden Empower (B)
12 Warmage 8/Rainbow Servant 6 Armored Mage (Medium Armor, Warmage)
13 Warmage 9/Rainbow Servant 7 Detect Chaos (Sp) at will, Extra Domain (Law)
14 Warmage 10/Rainbow Servant 8 Sudden Enlarge (B)
15 Warmage 11/Rainbow Servant 9 Advanced Learning (Warmage)
16 Beguiler 11/Rainbow Servant 10 Advanced Learning (Beguiler),Cleric Spell Access, Detect Thoughts (Sp) at will
17 Beguiler 12/Mystic Theurge 1
18 Beguiler 13/Mystic Theurge 2
19 Beguiler 14/Mystic Theurge 3 Cloaked Casting (+2 DC)
20 Beguiler 15/Mystic Theurge 4 Advanced Learning (Beguiler)

For this build, if your DM's a stickler for multiclassing penalties you'll need to play as a human or half-elf, or at least another race that can treat either the Beguiler or the Warmage as a favored class. If you're going as a human, be sure to grab Able Learner at level 1. If your DM allows it, take it as a half-elf (it's an option presented right there on the same page as the feat, in a sidebar).

Also: in order to shift this build from the base classes onto its prestige class path, your character must find the hidden jungle temples of the couatls, and learn from them. Not all DM's will accommodate this in-game, so be sure to weave it into your backstory during character creation.

All the spell progression improvements granted by the Rainbow Servant should go into Warmage, except at level 15.

Before anyone objects that both the Beguiler and the Warmage are arcane casters, so you can't enter the Mystic Theurge class, take a look at the capstone for the Rainbow Servant. It grants you all the spells on the Cleric spell list (core and splat), and any that aren't on the Bard or Sorcerer/Wizard spell lists are considered to be divine spells.

I'm sure many people are going to start objecting to using a dual-caster class in a gestalt build, but I have a couple of things to say about that. First, the rules for gestalt say you can only have one prestige class, but while they recommend not allowing dual-caster classes, it's only a suggestion and not a hard-and-fast rule. I can defend this a bunch of ways, but I would start by saying that ordinarily such classes are considered sub-par anyway, at least compared to a full caster who takes another prestige class. Mystic Theurge benefits beyond spell progression are nonexistent, so I would argue that the second spell progression *IS* the special benefits of the class. It doesn't increase your base attack, base saves, skill points, or hit points beyond what you'd already get. In fact, the only thing it offers besides extra spells is adding knowledge (religion) to your class skill list. Just let it be.

If your DM doesn't buy that load of bovine excrement, then just equalize your spell progressions, throw on Combat Casting (UGH!) and add 4 levels of Abjurant Champion instead. That, or assigning both Skill Focus and 8 skill ranks in Knowledge (Religion), then adding a couple of levels of Divine Oracle. Or perhaps even a couple of levels of Divine Oracle and a couple of Abjurant Champion. These options, at least, are 100% kosher and give you tangible benefits.


If you're taking this as I've described it, I highly recommend snatching up Rapid Metamagic at level 9. Nothing kills the realism of role-playing the Beguiler angle more than having to pause your fast-talking long enough to pop off a silent, still suggestion. If your party favors combat more (I know mine tend to), you might be forced to push that back to level 12, and grab Extra Spell (haste) at level 9 instead. Combat-types in your party will love you for it, even if it doesn't quite fit your normal playstyle.

[Kayblis]

Is this another "if I ignore the rules, I can make something very good according to the rules" thread? Really, all you've done is show that, if you ignore restrictions, the things that are bad because of said restrictions become good. Yeah, that's the reason they were bad, congratulations on figuring that out.

Really, this is all wrong. You don't 'become' a divine caster if you get access to divine spells, the class itself is not a divine spellcasting class so it's not advanced by Mystic Theurge. Then there's the part that you're flat-out ignoring the no dual-progression rule because you want to, and think this is an argument for the dual-progression class being useful in that specific scenario which it's already disallowed. Sure, go ahead and call it a "suggestion", doesn't change the fact that it's how gestalt is played in pretty much every table.

Then to finish it, your way of having it be useful here is assuming something that would make it worse by comparison - allowing other dual progression classes. If you allow this, you'll find out that Mystic Theurge is the worst of the bunch, so your point is moot. The very thing you wanted is made useless by one of your premises.

[Vaern]

Being able to cast divine spells doesn't make a class a divine caster class. You gain the ability to learn cast cleric spells; cleric spells aren't added to your class spell list or your personal spell list. When you cast water walk it isn't a warmage 3 or beguiler 3 spell, it's still cast as a cleric 3 spell. The base class itself isn't giving you access to divine spells and isn't a divine caster class.

[Skyrender]

My apologies for not understanding what makes one class which casts divine spells a divine spellcasting class, while another which specifically says it gives you divine spells, does not. And yes, some people conclude that the text regarding the gestalt option, specifically suggestions to be careful about including certain things in your game because they might threaten game balance, are in fact rules. Other people take those suggestions for what they are: suggestions and a great big sign with the word CAUTION! DANGER AHEAD! on it in big bold letters... but ultimately only a suggestion, nonetheless. I'm a member of the latter group, while you're obviously a member of the former. Just as obviously, we have different perspectives on what makes a rule of the game a rule, and what portions of the rules are flexible enough to allow for personal interpretation.

I'm sorry that you're so offended that you felt the need for vitriolic sarcasm.

[Vaern]

Honestly, though, if you were allowing dual-progression classes in a gestalt game you'd be best off trying to double down on them for quadruple progression. Instead of taking mystic theurge just to advance two classes that you'd already be advancing normally anyway, do something like wizard/cleric 3, psion/warmage 3, and then jump into mystic theurge/cerebremancer to gain full caster progression in all 4 base classes at once from then on.


1 Wizard 1/Cleric 1
2 Wizard 2/Cleric 2
3 Wizard 3/Cleric 3
4 Psion 1/Warmage 1
5 Psion 2/Warmage 2
6 Psion 3/Warmage 3
7 Mystic Theurge 1 (Wizard/Cleric 4) / Cerebremancer 1 (Psion/Warmage 4)
8 Mystic Theurge 2 (Wizard/Cleric 5) / Cerebremancer 2 (Psion Warmage 5)
Etc.

Having full caster/manifester progression in four base classes seems like a much more potent build than taking a 10-level diversion into rainbow servant just to tack on a few extra caster levels in your last few levels of your build.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Honestly, though, if you were allowing dual-progression classes in a gestalt game you'd be best off trying to double down on them for quadruple progression. Instead of taking mystic theurge just to advance two classes that you'd already be advancing normally anyway, do something like wizard/cleric 3, psion/warmage 3, and then jump into mystic theurge/cerebremancer to gain full caster progression in all 4 base classes at once from then on.

You'd probably still get more out of taking caster PrCs with actual class features.
Admittedly less so for anything involving psionics because of the many ways to screw with the action economy it offers, but otherwise i'd rather get levels in Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper than Mystic Theurge any day.

[Aracor]

Even better. Take druid and wizard at first, and then dual progress Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant at the same time so you can double up on caster progressions!

A permissive reading allows you to increase your caster level and spell level far beyond your character level that way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even better. Take druid and wizard at first, and then dual progress Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant at the same time so you can double up on caster progressions!

A permissive reading allows you to increase your caster level and spell level far beyond your character level that way.

Only if by "permissive reading" you mean "ignoring the rules".
Even ignoring the restriction on dual-progression classes (it's only a suggestion after all, right?) there's still the rules about how class features stack:

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

So no, you can't double up on casting progression with theurge PrCs any more than you could with any two other caster PrCs.
If you take two classes that advance a spellcasting class you only get one increase, not two.

[Quertus]

Then to finish it, your way of having it be useful here is assuming something that would make it worse by comparison - allowing other dual progression classes. If you allow this, you'll find out that Mystic Theurge is the worst of the bunch, so your point is moot. The very thing you wanted is made useless by one of your premises.

Care to explain this sentiment? What makes MT so bad in comparison?


Honestly, though, if you were allowing dual-progression classes in a gestalt game you'd be best off trying to double down on them for quadruple progression. Instead of taking mystic theurge just to advance two classes that you'd already be advancing normally anyway, do something like wizard/cleric 3, psion/warmage 3, and then jump into mystic theurge/cerebremancer to gain full caster progression in all 4 base classes at once from then on.


1 Wizard 1/Cleric 1
2 Wizard 2/Cleric 2
3 Wizard 3/Cleric 3
4 Psion 1/Warmage 1
5 Psion 2/Warmage 2
6 Psion 3/Warmage 3
7 Mystic Theurge 1 (Wizard/Cleric 4) / Cerebremancer 1 (Psion/Warmage 4)
8 Mystic Theurge 2 (Wizard/Cleric 5) / Cerebremancer 2 (Psion Warmage 5)
Etc.

Having full caster/manifester progression in four base classes seems like a much more potent build than taking a 10-level diversion into rainbow servant just to tack on a few extra caster levels in your last few levels of your build.

What do you do with level 17+? At 16, you're "13th level" in 4 casting classes, meaning you've got "7th level spells" x4, while just straight Wizard 16 // Cleric 16 is sporting dual 8s.

[ExLibrisMortis]

N.B. Gestalt notation usually uses double slashes, as in wizard 5/abjurant champion 5//warblade 10.

I hate the suggested "don't use dual progression classes in gestalt" rule. It really doesn't work with the rest of the game for a number of reasons that I won't go into here. So I don't mind you using Mystic Theurge in the way presented. I also don't mind entering Mystic Theurge with beguiler/rainbow servant. It's not the easiest way of doing that (Southern Magician/Alternate Source Spell/Spell domain cleric/sha'ir are all easier and much lower-level), but having spontaneous access to the entire cleric list is great.

I do have a question, though. What, exactly, does this build do that requires or even goes well with Mystic Theurge? For that matter, why does this build require gestalt?

As far as I can see, Mystic Theurge is four levels of casting progression with zero class features tucked in at the end of the build. It's not a good use of Mystic Theurge at all, unless you allow the double-progression reading, in which case... why are you only taking levels in Mystic Theurge when you're already hitting 9ths anyway? You should be entering Rainbow Servant early and continue with three levels of Mystic Theurge--hitting spontaneous 9th-level cleric list spells at ECL 14--and then take levels in some nice PrC like Hierophant (because its lack of casting doesn't matter :smalltongue:).

As for the warmage levels... they're not doing anything that I can see. More spell slots, I guess, but that's the least interesting use of gestalt.


If you want a "valid" use for the Mystic Theurge, you should be looking at Theurgic Specialist.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you want a "valid" use for the Mystic Theurge, you should be looking at Theurgic Specialist.
There's also the combo of Aligned Theurgy (also Dr#325) and Mark of the Enlightened Soul/Touch of the Blackened Soul (DrM) to give all your spells the relevant descriptor.

Unfortunately the only theurge feat of this kind that's been printed in a hardcover book (in case your DM doesn't allow dragon magazine) is Elemental Theurgy (DComp).
Which would be great if it offered cold spells as an option (with Snowcasting) but sadly it's limited to fire, water, air and earth which do not have an equivalent feat.

It's still worth a look if you're interested in building an elemental-themed theurge, though it's sharply devalued by the fact that by the time it really takes off you'd generally be hitting the caps on most blasting spells on a single-classed caster anyway.
So at best it'll let you keep up, but it's not quite the advantage the other two offer.

[Vaern]

What do you do with level 17+? At 16, you're "13th level" in 4 casting classes, meaning you've got "7th level spells" x4, while just straight Wizard 16 // Cleric 16 is sporting dual 8s.
If you add in rainbow servant progression you won't end up hitting max level of the dual progression classes, but would still only end up casting at about 13th level in all classes... by 20. It's really not optimal by any means, but access to that many spell lists does give you a rather impressive range of options.


I hate the suggested "don't use dual progression classes in gestalt" rule. It really doesn't work with the rest of the game for a number of reasons that I won't go into here.
But then, gestalt characters are essentially like leveling in a dual-progression class as is. The gestalt variant also comes with recommendations for prestige classes saying that if you were to create a prestige class that offered benefits on par with leveling two separate classes simultaneously then you might balance that option by having it take both gestalt class choices for that level, which is consistent with the recommendation that you should not allow dual-progression prestige classes for the sake of balance.
This section does mention creating your own prestige classes specifically for a gestalt game and, since UA is largely concerned with variant rules and customizing your game to make it right for you, it would be perfectly reasonable to also apply a few homebrew buffs to Mystic Theurge to make it a bit more worth spending both of your gestalt class slots on, rather than advancing wizard//cleric straight to 20 or opting for other prestige classes.

[Troacctid]

I don't know where you've been the past ~15 years. Mystic theurge never suffered from a lack of valid uses. This build you have here doesn't even seem particularly good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

But then, gestalt characters are essentially like leveling in a dual-progression class as is. The gestalt variant also comes with recommendations for prestige classes saying that if you were to create a prestige class that offered benefits on par with leveling two separate classes simultaneously then you might balance that option by having it take both gestalt class choices for that level, which is consistent with the recommendation that you should not allow dual-progression prestige classes for the sake of balance.
You're narrowly looking at the rule as if it's just about Mystic Theurge. It isn't. If it was, it'd be understandable. Not sensible, not necessary, but understandable. However, the rule is about all prestige classes that are "essentially class combinations". One of the listed examples is Eldritch Knight, another is Arcane Trickster. There are no guidelines on what constitutes a "class combination", but extrapolating from the examples given, the following hold:


- Any class that advances spellcasting and sneak attack is essentially a rogue//caster.
- Any class that advances spellcasting and gives full base attack is essentially a fighter//caster.
- Any class that advances two types of spellcasting is essentially a caster//caster.

It's hard to figure out more from the information given. Going by WotC's logic, I'm sure anything that grants Favoured Enemy and casting is "essentially" a ranger//cleric, even though rangers actually have casting to advance. Blackguards are probably disallowed, too, because they're rogue//paladins. So the first problem is that the rule is so vague that it is very hard to apply.

Now, the underlying misconception behind the rule is that gestalt is like taking levels in dual-progression classes, and thus gestalt effectively replaces dual-progression classes. It is not and it does not. Dual-progression classes often allow different class abilities to interact (Mind Mage, Ultimate Magus, Eldritch Disciple, Atavist, Argent Fist, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Soulcaster, Anima Mage, Totem Rager, just to name a few), whereas gestalt never does. Dual-progression classes allow you to sacrifice progression to get a reduced progression of some other ability, whereas gestalt involves no trade-off. Gestalt is only like progressing in a dual-progression class when comparing early entry into the class feature-free Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, and Psychic Theurge to a caster gestalt with 2 RHD and no prestige classes. In most other cases, dual-progression classes are mechanically better at providing a merged class than a gestalt build without that dual-progression class.

The second problem is, then, that the UA rule suggestion essentially says: "Here's a high-power high-complexity character building variant that combines classes, and by the way, don't use classes that kinda vaguely look like they might combine classes, because we wouldn't want things getting complex and powerful". The whole point of gestalt is combining classes, and all the prestige classes that actually allow you to combine classes are forbidden? That's stupid.

Moving on to balance. Balance-wise, there is no reason to disallow Mystic Theurge in gestalt. Compare the following builds:


cleric 3/crusader 10//wizard 3/mystic theurge 10
cleric 13//wizard 3/master specialist 4/initiate of the sevenfold veil 6

Both builds get full cleric and wizard casting, but they have different class features. The first build has ten base class levels--you can't combine a prestige class with Mystic Theurge. The second build has ten prestige class levels--Mystic Theurge is no longer eating up the "PrC slot". The builds aren't directly comparable--one has a hefty melee component, one is a focused abjurer--but it is not clear why getting crusader 10 features is more powerful than getting MS 4/IotSV 6 features. By my estimate, it isn't.

Looking at the examples above, you can see that Mystic Theurge essentially allows you to get the abilities of ten levels of a base class of your choice in lieu of the class features granted by your usual casting classes or ten levels worth of prestige classes. Unless starting a new base class is much more powerful than taking a prestige classes (which is not usually the case, in part because base classes are separate from and don't augment casting classes the way PrCs do), Mystic Theurge is balanced in gestalt by default. In fact, it's not just balanced, it enables the gestalt equivalent of theurge builds: sacrificing class features for a third type of progression--in the example above, maneuvers.

So the third problem is that there is a legitimate and balanced use for the Mystic Theurge in gestalt, which is very much like its use in a standard build, and yet it's disallowed for balance reasons.


To be clear: The author of that section did not look at the game with the experience we have. A lot of optimization work has been done since Unearthed Arcana was published, and we have a much better idea of how the game turned out to be balanced. Additionally, variant rules are allowed to be a bit unbalanced and wonky. That said, I still think the rule should have been recognized as a bad idea at the time, and it should certainly be recognized as a bad idea today. Luckily, given that it is a variant rule to begin with, a suggestion within a suggestion, we can feel free to ignore it if it does not suit our purpose. Which it doesn't.

[Vaern]

The problem with Unearthed Arcana as a whole is that it's largely concerned with changing the game to work the way you want it to. It's basically a collection of house rules and variant rules that encourages homebrewing. Everything in it is a suggestion that it gives the reader free reign to change as they see fit, and the systems it introduced aren't meant to be regarded as RAW or set in stone. They didn't comprehensively describe what constitutes a dual progression class because they don't have to - it's the DM's job to decide what is and isn't allowed.
I'm guessing the reason they recommend disallowing dual progression classes like mystic theurge is because you would still have to be leveling a base class along with it meaning that you'd effectively be advancing your spellcasting twice as fast in that class. For example, a cleric 10//wizard 3/mystic theurge 7 is effectively a level 10 wizard and a level 17 cleric, able to cast 9th level spells at level 10. The gestalt variant inherently presents massive potential for imbalance and abuse, and the suggestion that you ban the very classes that probably inspired the variant to begin with to keep people from doubling down on it was probably the first thing that came to mind when they were writing it.

[Darg]

Rainbow Servant doesn't even give you the ability to cast the spells unless you learn them first. Warmage did all the learning at first level; they don't know any cleric spells to cast. It would be better to simply be a wizard so that you could actually use your spell slots to cast them.

[NigelWalmsley]

No, that's not how it works. Warmages and company know all spells available to them. Rainbow Servant makes spells available to you, meaning Warmages can cast them. Otherwise Advanced Learning doesn't work.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm guessing the reason they recommend disallowing dual progression classes like mystic theurge is because you would still have to be leveling a base class along with it meaning that you'd effectively be advancing your spellcasting twice as fast in that class. For example, a cleric 10//wizard 3/mystic theurge 7 is effectively a level 10 wizard and a level 17 cleric, able to cast 9th level spells at level 10.
A cleric 10//wizard 3/mystic theurge 7 has 10th-level casting on both sides. You combine the cleric class with the mystic theurge class, and the benefits of both classes accrue at the rate of one class or the other, whichever is faster. Since both advance cleric casting at the same rate, Mystic Theurge is doing nothing at all in that build.

So no, that is not the reason.

[Darg]

No, that's not how it works. Warmages and company know all spells available to them. Rainbow Servant makes spells available to you, meaning Warmages can cast them. Otherwise Advanced Learning doesn't work.


A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage's spell list.

They know the spells on their class list. Cleric spell access doesn't add the spells to a list; it gives access and the ability to learn and cast a second list which is the cleric spell list. You still have to learn the spells in some way and warmage doesn't have a way to do that normally. If warmages are allowed to know the cleric spell list, there is nothing preventing any other arcane spellcaster from doing the same.


A cleric 10//wizard 3/mystic theurge 7 has 10th-level casting on both sides. You combine the cleric class with the mystic theurge class, and the benefits of both classes accrue at the rate of one class or the other, whichever is faster. Since both advance cleric casting at the same rate, Mystic Theurge is doing nothing at all in that build.

So no, that is not the reason.

What rule says that it only progresses one class if the other is already progressing?

[NigelWalmsley]

They know the spells on their class list. Cleric spell access doesn't add the spells to a list; it gives access and the ability to learn and cast a second list which is the cleric spell list. You still have to learn the spells in some way and warmage doesn't have a way to do that normally. If warmages are allowed to know the cleric spell list, there is nothing preventing any other arcane spellcaster from doing the same.

The mechanism by which Advanced Learning works is the same as the one Rainbow Servant uses. It adds things "to your list", that's how any character at all can use it. Your options are "Rainbow Servant does nothing for anyone", "Advanced Learning doesn't work", and "Rainbow Servant gives full access automatically, as WotC has explicitly said it does". There is not a consistent reading where Rainbow Warsnake does not work.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What rule says that it only progresses one class if the other is already progressing?


Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
"Spells" is a class feature. If you have two classes that both progress cleric casting it takes the faster one. There is no class with more than +1 to casting level, so it's either +1 or +0.

They don't stack. If you get the same class feature at the same level with both classes you only get one of them. Same applies to Sneak Attack, Smite Evil or Wildshape.