Bard or Warlock for a magic archer?

[Tekrow]

As the title says, I'm looking to build a magical archer, with access to high level spells(hence Bard or Warlock) but that can also dish out damage with a bow/crossbow.

Also, if there is another class besides those two(or a multiclass) that can do the same or better, I'm all ears. Thanks!

[Blood of Gaea]

Someone who shoots powerful magic arrows would be done well by a Hexblade with Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter. A magic caster who also is handy with a bow would be played well by a Swords Bard.

[ff7hero]

Bards can get Swift Quiver with Magical Secrets.

[CTurbo]

Typically Swords or Valor Bard is the go-to for a magic archer. You can grab Swift Quiver, Holy Weapon, or even Elemental Weapon with Magical Secrets. Swift Quiver is the best for Sharpshooter.

[CMCC]

Why not both?

[Tekrow]

Any sample builds?

[Amnestic]

Any sample builds?

Pretty much any build with Warlock 2 can play magic archer - your arcane focus in an unstrung longbow that you use to fire magic arrows (aka Eldritch Blast).

Warlock 2 or 3/Lorebard X works pretty well. If your party doesn't have a wizard maybe go Warlock 3 to grab Tome pact and Book of Ancient Secrets so you can cast 1st and 2nd level ritual spells. If you do have a wizard in the party you might want to jump ship after Warlock 2 to get the bard stuff online faster. Since you're ranged support, I'd probably go with Celestial as a patron for spot healing on a bonus action but other patrons work fine too.

Starting as Bard gives you a few more instrument and weapon proficiencies, along with Dex/Cha saves instead of Wis/Cha, but since your gameplay is unlikely to use weapons for the most part that's not so important. If you're starting at level 1 I'd always open as Warlock so your core "concept" is online immediately.

[Tekrow]

Pretty much any build with Warlock 2 can play magic archer - your arcane focus in an unstrung longbow that you use to fire magic arrows (aka Eldritch Blast).

Warlock 2 or 3/Lorebard X works pretty well. If your party doesn't have a wizard maybe go Warlock 3 to grab Tome pact and Book of Ancient Secrets so you can cast 1st and 2nd level ritual spells. If you do have a wizard in the party you might want to jump ship after Warlock 2 to get the bard stuff online faster. Since you're ranged support, I'd probably go with Celestial as a patron for spot healing on a bonus action but other patrons work fine too.

Starting as Bard gives you a few more instrument and weapon proficiencies, along with Dex/Cha saves instead of Wis/Cha, but since your gameplay is unlikely to use weapons for the most part that's not so important. If you're starting at level 1 I'd always open as Warlock so your core "concept" is online immediately.

But wait, this is an arcane archer that uses eldritch blast? Not an actual bow/crossbow?

[Amnestic]

But wait, this is an arcane archer that uses eldritch blast? Not an actual bow/crossbow?

It's an arcane archer in flavour, more arcane than archer, admittedly, but it - to me - fulfills the fantasy of shooting magic with a bow.

Strictly you don't even need to go unstrung. Arcane focuses can explicitly be weapons such as staves, so I don't see a big reason you couldn't use a normal longbow as an arcane focus.

If EB 'archer' doesn't strike your fancy, then a straight Eldritch Knight archer or Valour Bard will work just as well.

[RogueJK]

Bards can get Swift Quiver with Magical Secrets.

Swift Quiver is totally overrated. It only works on nonmagical ammo. By the time a Bard gets it with Magical Secrets at Level 10, or a Ranger gets it normally at Level 17, many/most of the monsters you're fighting will be resistant or immune to nonmagical arrows. And it eats up your Bonus Action each round. It's a trap.

An Archer Bard is better off spending their Magical Secret and Concentration on something else. Instead of Swift Quiver I'd choose Haste, unless there's another caster in the party who can reliably Haste you, in which case I'd choose Elemental Weapon. With Haste, they get just one less attack per round than Swift Quiver, but can use it with magical arrows/bows, and it still leaves their Bonus Action free, plus they have +2 AC, their speed is doubled, they have advantage on DEX saves, and it's only using a 3rd level slot instead of 5th. With Elemental Weapon, they get a +1 attack bonus and +d4 damage on all ranged attacks using a 3rd level slot, and it can be upcast in a 5th level slot for +2 attack bonus and +2d4 damage.


Unless you're going "Eldritch Blast quasi-Archer" as suggested above (which actually is one of the better ways to play a "magic archer"), 1 level of Fighter for Archery Fighting Style is worth the delay to your Bard/Warlock levels, and you'll also want the Sharpshooter feat.

For Eldritch Blast quasi-Archer, you don't need Archery Fighting Style or Sharpshooter, since you're not using ranged weapon attacks. Instead, you'll want the Agonizing Blast invocation and the Spell Sniper feat. A Warlock 2/Sorcerer X can even Quicken their Eldritch Blast "bow shots", for two castings per round, giving you 4 "shots" per round at W2/S3, 6 "shots" at W2/S9, etc.

[MrStabby]

Also I think a drow bladesinger can work with a hand crossbow.

[RogueJK]

Also I think a drow bladesinger can work with a hand crossbow.

Or a non-Drow Bladesinger with 1 level of Fighter for hand crossbow proficiency plus Archery fighting style.

One downside is the short range until you get the Sharpshooter feat.


Also, unless you go with something like Agonizing Eldritch Blast quasi-Archer that already scales with level, you'll likely eventually reach a point where you're less of an archer and more of just a normal spellcaster, as your spells' effects start to outpace your archery damage output. The main way to help keep Archery competitive at you gain levels is to really lean into Sharpshooter's -5/+10 and find ways to boost your Archery attack bonus to offset the -5 penalty (including stuff like Archery fighting style, Magic/Elemental Weapon spell, using spells to inflict conditions that generate Advantage, having the party Paladin/Cleric keep the Bless spell running, etc.).

You can also potentially utilize Tenser's Transformation once that becomes available at Wizard 11 or Bard 14 through Magical Secrets. (Unfortunately, it's not available at all to Warlocks.) Advantage and +2d12 extra force damage on all of your archery attacks (especially 3x hand crossbow attacks per round) is pretty nice, but it comes at the steep cost of not being able to cast any other spells for the duration.

[Reynaert]

(Drow) Warlock, blade pact, improved pact weapon for early game +1 magic longbow.
Darkness spell (*) at level 3, combined with Devil's Sight for always-on advantage. (**)
Sharpshooter level 4 for that sweet damage boost and ignoring all but full cover. (***)
Eldritch smite level 5 for boatloads of damage on a hit or even twice on crits.

Add to that a decent number of cantrips for utility, and the odd utility spell slot on combat-light days (fly comes to mind).

*) Alternatively, take Misty Visions and cast an illusory fog clod on yourself for no resource cost, but the DM might very well rule that doesn't work so check beforehand.
**) You should usually be far enough away from your allies so you're not hampering them.
***) Very useful if the DM plays with the optional 'allies between you and the target count as cover' rule.

[MrStabby]

Or a non-Drow Bladesinger with 1 level of Fighter for hand crossbow proficiency plus Archery fighting style.

One downside is the short range until you get the Sharpshooter feat.


Also, unless you go with something like Agonizing Eldritch Blast quasi-Archer that already scales with level, you'll likely eventually reach a point where you're less of an archer and more of just a normal spellcaster, as your spells' effects start to outpace your archery damage output. The main way to help keep Archery competitive at you gain levels is to really lean into Sharpshooter's -5/+10 and find ways to boost your Archery attack bonus to offset the -5 penalty (including stuff like Archery fighting style, Magic/Elemental Weapon spell, using spells to inflict conditions that generate Advantage, having the party Paladin/Cleric keep the Bless spell running, etc.).

You can also potentially utilize Tenser's Transformation once that becomes available at Wizard 11 or Bard 14 through Magical Secrets. (Unfortunately, it's not available at all to Warlocks.) Advantage and +2d12 extra force damage on all of your archery attacks (especially 3x hand crossbow attacks per round) is pretty nice, but it comes at the steep cost of not being able to cast any other spells for the duration.

Yeah, if you want to be good at archery you will need to keep investing as you level up.

Crossbow expert, sharpshooter and spells like greater invisibility will keep you pretty powerful. If you want you can even kind of dump intelligence, taking spells like wall of force, invisibility, animate objects etc.. you will have fewer spells known but still the full array of slots.

[Tekrow]

If going non magical, what would be the best martial archer?

[Amnestic]

If going non magical, what would be the best martial archer?

Samurai or Battlemaster fighter both work excellently for it. Scout rogue if you prefer the one shot per turn style instead of extra attacks.

There's a wood elf samurai archer build here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24726630&postcount=582#). It includes Ritual Caster at 12 as part of the build but it's not a core part of it and can be swapped out for another feat.

[Blood of Gaea]

Any sample builds?

Race: Half-Elf (Drow)

Str: 8 or 10
Dex: 13+1
Con: 14+1
Int: 8 or 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 15+2

ASI 1: Elven Accuracy +1 Cha

ASI 2: Sharpshooter

ASI 3: +2 Cha

ASI 4: Resilient Constitution

ASI 5: Lucky

Invocations in Order:

Devil's Sight
Agonizing Blast
Agonizing Blast -> Improved Pact Weapon
Thirsting Blade
Eldritch Smite
Agonizing Blast
Lifedrinker
Tricksters Escape
Tomb of Levistus

From levels 3-6, use Darkness to give yourself advantage, keep your allies and the current situation in mind when utilizing it.

From levels 7-16, Shadow of Moil will usually be used over Darkness, but sometimes Darkness will be very useful for your party, keep it in mind.

From level 17-20, use Foresight to grant advantage in the majority of your fights

Hexblade spells:

1st: +Armor of Agathys, +Expeditious Retreat.

3rd: -Expeditious Retreat, +Darkness

4th: +Hold Person

5th: +Hypnotic Pattern

6th: +Fly

7th: +Shadow of Moil

8th: +Dimension Door

9th: +Synaptic Static

11th: From this point, just grab whatever interests you, you have the selection I consider very important.

Mystic Arcanum: Mass Suggestion, Crown of Stars OR Forcecage OR Planeshift, Demiplane OR Feeblemind OR Glibness, Foresight OR True Polymorph.

Cantrips in order: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation.

Use a longbow and the best medium armor you can afford. Use your longbow with sharpshooter when you have advantage, and Agonizing Blast when you do not.

[Corran]

The main way to help keep Archery competitive at you gain levels is to really lean into Sharpshooter's -5/+10 and find ways to boost your Archery attack bonus to offset the -5 penalty (including stuff like Archery fighting style, Magic/Elemental Weapon spell, using spells to inflict conditions that generate Advantage, having the party Paladin/Cleric keep the Bless spell running, etc.).
If we are talking strictly about optimization, I'll have to disagree with this mentality. And I'll explain why. You dont need to keep archery competitive. You need to keep your character competitive. Not to the other characters in the game. Not to completely different builds/classes that fill a similar (sub)role (in this case archer, or more generally, ranged dpr). You need to keep your character competitive to the non-archer (to put it simply) version of itself. And under that prism you examine if archery is a viable option to start with. And if it is, you invest in it exactly as much as you have to, in order for the overall build to be the best it can be as a whole.

What does this practically mean? (examples follow)

Say I am playing a valor bard. A bow would certainly be handy when my other at-will routine is vicious mockery. And since it does not cost me anything (aka build points) to get one, it's easy to see that a bow certainly has its place in my build. It doesn't hurt it. It improves it. I'm sure that I'll often get to shoot my bow, but now I am thinking if I should actually build more on top of it. If I take one fighter level and/or devote one magical secret (slots, but also concentration!) on something like swift quiver, you can bet I am much better at archery than I initially was. But at what price? At the price of becoming a worse bard, or a worse build if you will (in this case both in paper and in practice). That's the cost of keeping archery competitive, say, to the EB canon ally, or to the martial archer ally. In other words, I made archery a stronger option, but at the same time I made it a non-viable one as well because the end result is poorer than it would have been if I had just stuck with just the bow and nothing else.

Say I am playing a warlock (make it a hexblade cause it's more weapon friendly). Similarly here, I am not making my goal to beat EB dpr with a (x)bow. EB damage is not considered so good because we cannot beat it. We can easily beat it with a weapon wielding hexblade (even at tier 4). But to do that, we'll have to spend many times the resources that the EB canon used for its dpr output. EB damage is good because, like most cantrips, but even more so, it is very cost effective. You just need one cantrip and one invocation for it, with the option to add control (repelling blast and a few more invocations) and even more damage (hex) onto it should you need to (eg long range showdowns of some sort). That's not to say that a weapon cannot be good. But you dont make it good by trying to outperform EB in cost effectiveness. You do that by examining what makes it a viable choice (if anything at all). And in the case of a hexblade (holds true for all warlocks, but more for hexblades because of their spells), the weapon actually allows a better nova than that of an EB canon. And it is with that idea in mind that I try to make my archer warlock viable. Meaning, that the core idea seems sound to me. And now it's a question if the build can do this without seriously sabotaging itself elsewhere in the process.

So how do we check viability? Let's see. What else do we need aside for nova? We need to be able to dish out respectable (if not good) dpr. Why? Because ranged builds must do that anyway. We can be more forgiving with fullcasters regarding this one, but the warlock is an exception. Why? Because it was made with certain limitations on its casting on the premise that it will have better dpr than that of the average caster. So, #1, is to boost a solid dpr. #2 is something that is also common for ranged builds. They need to be able to reposition (either to create distance from melee threats, or to disrupt/regain line of sight as needed). And finally, most importantly, we must not in any way sabotage our spellcasting potential. Meaning, we are not going to overlook even for a second our best spells, just so we can be the best at playing archer. When playing a fullcaster, for good or bad, we have to act as being a caster first and everything else second. That's not to say that spells that also happen to improve our archery skills will be useless, and that's also not to say that there wont be time where being an archer will be our biggest asset (eg when we need to go nova).

Before we move away from the very basic investment, we are probably counting something in the region of 1-2 feats, 3-4 invocations, and at least one archery based spell. I think something along these lines is manageable. The tricky part comes when we start thinking in term of spell slots. You see, we need to be able to do most of the aforementioned things at the same time. And if I count on spells (and thus on slots) for all these things we need to do (ie dpr, repositioning, nova, general spellcasting), we can easily start noticing that our slots are nowhere near enough to support us. It certainly looks good on paper, because on paper we tend to think of problems separately, but a challenging game (or in reverse, if we are indeed optimizing), we need to be able to do most, if not all of these things at once.

So we need to find ways to achieve at least some of these things, that dont involve spending slots for it.

Misty step you say? I've probably retrained it to dimension door by level 7, and I am not even counting on dimension door for repositioning (odd cases aside). I am only using it for escape, cause slots are too precious to spend for something as simple as moving away or behind cover. What am I doing instead? I try to be as proactive as possible regarding my positioning for starters. Then it depends on the game and/or on the DM. If the DM challenges my archer once every full moon, then I might just take the opportunity attack here and there. If the DM challenges my ranged character a bit more than that, maybe it's time to pick a race that gets a free misty step every short/long rest and hope that will be enough. And if the DM challenges my character enough, maybe it's time to play a goblin and bring out my dice for rolling stats (assuming that's an option). Stuff like these and more, just so I can count on casual repositioning as much as I think I'll need to, but without touching my spell slots.

Need to bump dpr? Na ah. Not with slots. Too precious to spend them along with concentration for a dpr boost (again, there might be the odd case where you need to), at least after you start getting access to strong spells (as early as tier 2 I'd say). You do it in slot-free ways. Pick feats and invocations that synergize with each other. Lifedrinker works well with crossbow expert but less so with sharpshooter, and devil's sight works well with sharpshooter alone and with SS+CE. Stuff like that.

Nova. Well, this will use our slots, and there's no going around that. And if we want to nova hard, it's using 2 slots in one round (one going to a smite and the other to a smite spell). So our spell slots will face pressure from that anyway, and that's intentional and the core reason as to why we went with a bow in the first place. But that doesn't mean we should be careless. To ease the pressure on your spell slots, we must use our nova when it counts, and not whenever. Our choices during play will be a significant factor to if this turns out a viable build, at the very least in practice.

Lastly, spellcasting. We want this to use our slots, and that's why we are here, playing a fullcaster. That's why we are actually trying to free up slots as much as we can from things like dpr and repositioning. There is no point in making the bow a good option if we end up as a much worse caster than our EB warlock counterpart (which is what we could have very well been, and what we might end up being if we dont make the hexbow a viable -caster- build; we made the bow an apple, while EB is a nice juicy orange, and both apples and oranges are tasty fruits, but it will be all for naught if we end up with a rotten caster).

Of course, one can start with a mechanically bad idea and try to make the most of it while staying true to it. That's still optimization, even if it's done under some purposely disadvantageous parameters. Nothing wrong with that, so long as you are doing it with your eyes open. I dont know if the op wants to make the best possible archer out of a fullcaster's chassis (in which case I'd wholeheartedly agree with your comment above), or if they want a fullcaster that doubles in archery with purpose and to a satisfying extent, with whatever playstyle deviations that will entail, but without sabotaging the end result, which usually means ending up as an inferior caster (in which case, I think that ''keeping archery competitive'' is a distraction that if assumed as part of our core planning, it will end up doing more harm than good from an optimization perspective; IMO always true for full casters, and almost always true for non martial classes).




You can also potentially utilize Tenser's Transformation once that becomes available at Wizard 11 or Bard 14 through Magical Secrets. (Unfortunately, it's not available at all to Warlocks.) Advantage and +2d12 extra force damage on all of your archery attacks (especially 3x hand crossbow attacks per round) is pretty nice, but it comes at the steep cost of not being able to cast any other spells for the duration.
One interesting idea I'd seen some time ago in this forum and which stuck with me, was using a whispers bard who uses two of his magical secrets for find greater steed and TT, along with the crossbow expert thief and psychic blades for more damage (and there's some crit potential) from the subclass. I think I still prefer its melee counterpart (that uses twf instead of a crossbow, and warcaster instead of CE). But we are talking about an archer build so I though I'd mention it. Not sure how well it would hold up against serious challenges, and it pains me to think of spending a 14th level magical secret on TT, but the whole thing has some synergizing features and it sounds fun to run (assuming you reach that level, not sure how much this would fulfill other people's archer fantasy on the way there.




If going non magical, what would be the best martial archer?
Well, the samurai is the most straightforward and definitely very good. The battlemaster has maneuvers which other fighter subclasses will definitely miss when going the archer route. And the EK has spells (not only for boosting attacks but also for other things, like debuffing, defense and AoE), a good fallback option in warmagic BB and moving away, and eventually stuff like free teleports when action surging. The ranger (I like the gloomstalker) makes for a great archer too. Rogues are great too. Unless you pull off any AT haste shenanigans I dont think you'll catch up to the other martials' ranged damage, but rogues get better use out of their skills, so that compensates if you like your skill checks. It wont be that difficult to narrow down the class you want to play more (between say, a fighter, a ranger and a rogue). Once you do that, and if you are undecided about the subclass, then the simplest thing you could do would be to start a new thread, asking something like ''which fighter subclass makes the best archer?''. By the end of that thread you might not know which one is truly the best archer, but you will probably know which one you'd enjoy the most.

[Snowbluff]

One interesting idea I'd seen some time ago in this forum and which stuck with me, was using a whispers bard who uses two of his magical secrets for find greater steed and TT, along with the crossbow expert thief and psychic blades for more damage (and there's some crit potential) from the subclass. I think I still prefer its melee counterpart (that uses twf instead of a crossbow, and warcaster instead of CE). But we are talking about an archer build so I though I'd mention it. Not sure how well it would hold up against serious challenges, and it pains me to think of spending a 14th level magical secret on TT, but the whole thing has some synergizing features and it sounds fun to run (assuming you reach that level, not sure how much this would fulfill other people's archer fantasy on the way there.


It was me. :smalltongue:

I will say having access to Holy Weapon (level 10) and TT makes for a much better Chassis for a Bard. On top of that, your init and skills are better. Lower levels are rougher, but I will say Valor is probably the way to go if you don't have access to level 14 for TT on a Whispers Bard or the free dice for the Swords bard. Not that the war magic on Valor is really bad in anyway.

[Talionis]

Hexblade Blade Pact Warlock 5/Whisper Bard 15. Invocations Thirsting Blade, Enhance Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite. Inspiration and third level spells recharge on short rest. Hand crossbow with crossbow expert and sharpshooter feats. Max Charisma. Elven Accuracy Feat doesn’t hurt. You even can hide your crossbow in a pocket dimension. Even though you have a lot of resources tied up in archery you are skilled and can have varied spells to flesh out the character.

[Greywander]

If we are talking strictly about optimization, I'll have to disagree with this mentality. And I'll explain why. You dont need to keep archery competitive. You need to keep your character competitive. Not to the other characters in the game. Not to completely different builds/classes that fill a similar (sub)role (in this case archer, or more generally, ranged dpr). You need to keep your character competitive to the non-archer (to put it simply) version of itself. And under that prism you examine if archery is a viable option to start with. And if it is, you invest in it exactly as much as you have to, in order for the overall build to be the best it can be as a whole.
[...]
Of course, one can start with a mechanically bad idea and try to make the most of it while staying true to it. That's still optimization, even if it's done under some purposely disadvantageous parameters. Nothing wrong with that, so long as you are doing it with your eyes open.
I somewhat agree and disagree. I see what you're saying, but there's more than one way to look at a situation like this. Consider, for example, a sorcadin build that is paladin 2/sorcerer 18. Since the overwhelming number of your levels are in sorcerer, you'd think that you'd want to compare yourself to a straight sorcerer to see if the paladin dip is worth it. And that's one way of approaching it. But you could also compare this build to other martials to see what kind of damage you can output and how good your defenses are. It might be true that dipping into paladin makes you a crappier caster, but it might also make you a pretty amazing gish.

The point I'm making, which I think you also acknowledge in the second part of what I quoted, is that if you're trying to build a magic archer, and for some reason you're dead set on bard, you can make a pretty decent magic archer who also has some other cool bard features. It won't be the most optimized bard, but it might be the most optimized magic archer built using a bard. It's generally not a good idea to overspecialize, but you can build your character to be really good at one thing while also picking up some other neat tricks along the way.

To the OP, I second taking a look at an EB-based warlock refluffed as a magic archer. You can easily refluff as staff as being more bow-like, which reminds me of the magick archer class from Dragon's Dogma (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfTkVDzSDfM) (good game, by the way, would recommend). Repelling Blast gives you a great control option (there's no save, and there's no size restriction; anything you hit gets pushed away), and pairs nicely with Create Bonfire, which can be used as an AoE to hit at least 4 squares (2x2 area), and up to 6 squares (2x3 area) if you're really permissive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618965-Create-Bonfire-Repelling-Blast). Eldritch Spear extends your range out to 300 feet, which becomes 600 with Spell Sniper (equal to a longbow). I'm not normally into blaster casters, but I really want to try an EB-focused warlock at some point.

This might not be what you're looking for, if you really want someone who uses a real bow or crossbow, but at least give it a look to see if you can make it work.

[Bardon]

Well, if "archer" includes using a crossbow, then an Artillerist is a very effective way to go too!

[Corran]

It was me. :smalltongue:
Yeah, probably. I remember talking about this build with dragoeniex (who was using it at the time if I recall correctly), but I am not 100% where I'd first seen it. Must have been you, cause I remember your avatar from somewhere.

Did some old post digging (bard with TT and greater steed), and I saw a good tip I'd forgotten. I am mentioning it here both for the sake of completeness but also in case you have some input. It's better for the mount to be uncontrolled after you cast TT (or any other such buff), so that it can attack (with all the TT bonuses and extra temp hp). So utilizing TT from range isn't as bad as I was thinking. It's mostly a question of whether we can afford CE by that point, and if it's even worth doing so (cause we want to be attacking with our bonus actions when TT is up and running, but I am not sure how much I'd value CE on a bard, even as a late-ish level pick). Do you think CE is good on some bards?


I will say having access to Holy Weapon (level 10) and TT makes for a much better Chassis for a Bard. On top of that, your init and skills are better. Lower levels are rougher, but I will say Valor is probably the way to go if you don't have access to level 14 for TT on a Whispers Bard or the free dice for the Swords bard. Not that the war magic on Valor is really bad in anyway.
I can see the appeal of [self] buff spells for a bard with access to an improved steed (good pick for a secret IMO), though for anything of 5th spell level or higher I am thinking that it's mostly a case of ''how do I optimize the use of a spell I really like'' vs ''how I optimize my bard''. A single target (self) buff spell would have to be insanely good to consider for the same slots being utilized by spells like wall of force, mass suggestion and forcecage. TT is pretty damn good and it's being torn to shreds just because of the competition it faces. And then there's the fact spells like holy weapon and TT are mostly about dealing damage, the same thing that animate objects does. Yeah, these spells can be better sometimes, but your are paying a magical secret just for the difference, on a class with many concentration options anyway, while we could be looking for the best non-concentration spells out there (and perhaps a few of the very best concentration ones) for secret picks.

I dont see the appeal of holy weapon specifically for a bard at all though. It's great for paladins for sure, and I could easily see a cleric or a paladin using it to buff a fighter. But is there something that makes it good for bards? What am I missing?






I somewhat agree and disagree. I see what you're saying, but there's more than one way to look at a situation like this. Consider, for example, a sorcadin build that is paladin 2/sorcerer 18. Since the overwhelming number of your levels are in sorcerer, you'd think that you'd want to compare yourself to a straight sorcerer to see if the paladin dip is worth it. And that's one way of approaching it. But you could also compare this build to other martials to see what kind of damage you can output and how good your defenses are. It might be true that dipping into paladin makes you a crappier caster, but it might also make you a pretty amazing gish.

The sorcadin tries to do one of two things.
1) We either want to play a melee gish, or
2) We want to toughen up our caster.

I think the sorcadin (2/18) fails at (1). Perhaps not initially, but relatively soon after. That's because you'll end up with more reasons to try and stay out of harm's way, than you'll have to enter melee and smite (too much risk for little payoff).

I think it suceeds at (2) though. But IMO there are better ways of achieving that (cleric 1, fighter 2, hexblade 2).

I guess it's a neat way to play a strong caster who can handle a weapon decently and can tank hits, but this does not negate IMO that it's a bad idea to put your not-boosted concentration of your highest level spells at constant risk for smiting your slots away at a not-boosted rate of once per turn. Of course, you can try to address these issues with how you build your character, but I dont know of an effective way to do that.



The point I'm making, which I think you also acknowledge in the second part of what I quoted, is that if you're trying to build a magic archer, and for some reason you're dead set on bard, you can make a pretty decent magic archer who also has some other cool bard features. It won't be the most optimized bard, but it might be the most optimized magic archer built using a bard. It's generally not a good idea to overspecialize, but you can build your character to be really good at one thing while also picking up some other neat tricks along the way.
Yeah, I agree for sure. Very well said.

That reason (that you mention) could even have to do with optimization btw (usually we imply it's because of personal preference). Probably you are trying to fill many holes (and the bard is good at trying to do so), while also trying to cover for a lack of ranged damage via archery (cause hexblade dipping or multiclassing in general is off the table). It will be hard to cover all of these things well at the same time, but maybe it's better to try and thus maybe spread a little thin, than ditching one of your self imposed duties. Heh, I am imagining a dad who is starting a campaign with his kids and the kids' friends (mom is DMing), and all the kids showed up with barbarians and melee fighters because they probably saw Conan the other night. And the poor dad is trying to babysit. Who is going to heal them? Who is going to buff their attacks and saving throws? Who is going to provide AoE damage? Who is going to revive their characters if they die? Who is going to step into negotiations if they need help with it? Who is going to cover for lacking ranged damage? Well, dad's archer bard will eventually have an answer for everything!

[Dork_Forge]

Swift Quiver is totally overrated. It only works on nonmagical ammo. By the time a Bard gets it with Magical Secrets at Level 10, or a Ranger gets it normally at Level 17, many/most of the monsters you're fighting will be resistant or immune to nonmagical arrows. And it eats up your Bonus Action each round. It's a trap.

An Archer Bard is better off spending their Magical Secret and Concentration on something else. Instead of Swift Quiver I'd choose Haste, unless there's another caster in the party who can reliably Haste you, in which case I'd choose Elemental Weapon. With Haste, they get just one less attack per round than Swift Quiver, but can use it with magical arrows/bows, and it still leaves their Bonus Action free, plus they have +2 AC, their speed is doubled, they have advantage on DEX saves, and it's only using a 3rd level slot instead of 5th. With Elemental Weapon, they get a +1 attack bonus and +d4 damage on all ranged attacks using a 3rd level slot, and it can be upcast in a 5th level slot for +2 attack bonus and +2d4 damage.


Unless you're going "Eldritch Blast quasi-Archer" as suggested above (which actually is one of the better ways to play a "magic archer"), 1 level of Fighter for Archery Fighting Style is worth the delay to your Bard/Warlock levels, and you'll also want the Sharpshooter feat.

For Eldritch Blast quasi-Archer, you don't need Archery Fighting Style or Sharpshooter, since you're not using ranged weapon attacks. Instead, you'll want the Agonizing Blast invocation and the Spell Sniper feat. A Warlock 2/Sorcerer X can even Quicken their Eldritch Blast "bow shots", for two castings per round, giving you 4 "shots" per round at W2/S3, 6 "shots" at W2/S9, etc.

This isn't actually a problem though, since ammunition fired from a magical weapon counts as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity.

As for Swift Quiver being a trap, I don't really see it that way (especially on a Bard):

-Making two ranged attacks with your bonus action is a great deal
-If you're a Swords or Whispers Bard focused on being an Archer you're likely dumping your BI into Flourishes or Bard Smites anyway

In comparison Haste is a pretty terrible option on yourself:

-It takes your entire action, meaning at best on that turn you're getting a single shot off
-If you lose concentration or the spell ends for any reason you're a sitting duck doing nothing for a turn
-The party would probably be better off if Haste was thrown at a martial that can better leverage the additional attack and AC

Agree on taking a dip in fighter for the style regardless the choice though.

[Joe the Rat]

It really depends on what you are after. Single classed, Blade Warlock is going to be your best single-shot boomer. Bard has the most fusillade potential. Warlock has all of the Warlock tricks (warp minds, hellscape generation) to go along side archery, but eats into your novas (smite). But Warlock is an easier switch-hitter (between fights, at least) - Heavy Crossbow if you will be at significant range or need heavy use of your bonus actions, or Hand crossbow for more shooty. Since it takes an action to switch, choose wisely. Bard (via magical secrets) has the most options to magic up archery, in addition to all the usual Bard party support and field control options.


Hexblade Blade Pact Warlock 5/Whisper Bard 15. Invocations Thirsting Blade, Enhance Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite. Inspiration and third level spells recharge on short rest. Hand crossbow with crossbow expert and sharpshooter feats. Max Charisma. Elven Accuracy Feat doesn’t hurt. You even can hide your crossbow in a pocket dimension. Even though you have a lot of resources tied up in archery you are skilled and can have varied spells to flesh out the character.

This is actually a pretty solid mix, if you don't mind capping at 7th level spells. You get the most base range attacks via Warlock, and (eventually) more than make up for the lesser Smite with Psychic Blades. It gives you more granularity in your death sniping. I would be inclined to run up Warlock first (to keep your attacks at pace), then switch in full to Bard. Hexblade is most efficient, but if you don't want to go that route for some reason or have one of those DMs that houserules "Charisma for Pact Weapons", You can focus Dex initially, since you will be relying more on weapon damage than spell attack/save DCs. You do need Charisma for Bard though - that's what determines your BI pool.

[Talionis]

It really depends on what you are after. Single classed, Blade Warlock is going to be your best single-shot boomer. Bard has the most fusillade potential. Warlock has all of the Warlock tricks (warp minds, hellscape generation) to go along side archery, but eats into your novas (smite). But Warlock is an easier switch-hitter (between fights, at least) - Heavy Crossbow if you will be at significant range or need heavy use of your bonus actions, or Hand crossbow for more shooty. Since it takes an action to switch, choose wisely. Bard (via magical secrets) has the most options to magic up archery, in addition to all the usual Bard party support and field control options.



This is actually a pretty solid mix, if you don't mind capping at 7th level spells. You get the most base range attacks via Warlock, and (eventually) more than make up for the lesser Smite with Psychic Blades. It gives you more granularity in your death sniping. I would be inclined to run up Warlock first (to keep your attacks at pace), then switch in full to Bard. Hexblade is most efficient, but if you don't want to go that route for some reason or have one of those DMs that houserules "Charisma for Pact Weapons", You can focus Dex initially, since you will be relying more on weapon damage than spell attack/save DCs. You do need Charisma for Bard though - that's what determines your BI pool.

15 levels of Bard net you level 8 spells at level 20. I grant you that not getting 9th level spells is something but you’d probably mostly use it for Foreknowledge and you don’t get access to Wish unless you go to Bard 18 for magical secrets. Having access to 3rd level Warlock recharging slots is nice especially when you might dump spells into Smites.

Being single stat dependent is nice. You still wouldn’t dump Dexterity or Constitution.

[Snowbluff]

So utilizing TT from range isn't as bad as I was thinking. It's mostly a question of whether we can afford CE by that point, and if it's even worth doing so (cause we want to be attacking with our bonus actions when TT is up and running, but I am not sure how much I'd value CE on a bard, even as a late-ish level pick). Do you think CE is good on some bards? I would say that if your objective is to make an archery bard, then yes, CE is very good. It will improve your DPR by about 50%, allowing more procs for Holy Weapon or Tensers. On top of that being able to shoot point blank is nice.



I can see the appeal of [self] buff spells for a bard with access to an improved steed (good pick for a secret IMO), though for anything of 5th spell level or higher I am thinking that it's mostly a case of ''how do I optimize the use of a spell I really like'' vs ''how I optimize my bard''. A single target (self) buff spell would have to be insanely good to consider for the same slots being utilized by spells like wall of force, mass suggestion and forcecage. TT is pretty damn good and it's being torn to shreds just because of the competition it faces. And then there's the fact spells like holy weapon and TT are mostly about dealing damage, the same thing that animate objects does. Yeah, these spells can be better sometimes, but your are paying a magical secret just for the difference, on a class with many concentration options anyway, while we could be looking for the best non-concentration spells out there (and perhaps a few of the very best concentration ones) for secret picks.

I dont see the appeal of holy weapon specifically for a bard at all though. It's great for paladins for sure, and I could easily see a cleric or a paladin using it to buff a fighter. But is there something that makes it good for bards? What am I missing?

Well, here's a few things:
1) Animate Object Only Lasts a Minute, as opposed to 10 for TT and 60 for Holy Weapon. You can stretch longer duration spells for cleaning up smaller fights in dungeons.

2) Animate Object suffers when encountering enemies resistant to non-magical damage, which is to say, anything worth killing. This doesn't make it bad, just makes other spells more competitive in those cases.

3) When needed, Holy Weapon is also a potent, concentration-free blinding effect when you dismiss it. If, say, you're in a dungeon and you've used holy weapon to deal with some riffraff, you can always start a bigger fight by blinding enemies then casting the shorter duration Animate Object in one turn.

EDIT:
4) Nearly forgot this, nothing is keeping you from putting this on a fighter or polearm paladin to get more mileage out of it if you're not interested in doing the fighting yourself.