OOTS #1218 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I am loving that last panel. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Good to see Roy asking Elan's opinion for once.

[Arin]

Good to see Roy asking Elan's opinion for once.

Think it just took this long for him to embrace that Elan's genre-savvy shenanigans actually have value in this world. :)

[Worldsong]

Okay, that's just heartwarming.

This isn't even a throwaway gag or anything. Roy is actually relying on Elan's expertise for what could be a crucial decision which determines the difference between success and failure on the quest to save the world.

[2.5 cats]

Absolutely LOVE that Roy has real respect for Elan's ability to see narrative structure!

[Zhorn]

Absolutely LOVE that Roy has real respect for Elan's ability to see narrative structure!

Things are serious when Roy is looking to Elan for information to base their tactics on.
Not even a joke; it is showing the growth of the group, understanding everyone's 'strength' is still a strength worth using.

[Edreyn]

:roy: Are we at the final battle, right here in this canyon?


Oh dear, what if they really ARE! :smalleek:

[Breccia]

Wow. Possibly the single (double?) strip where everyone's pesonality is best displayed, all at once.

[Scizor]

Oh dear, what if they really ARE! :smalleek:

I'd hope not, exactly for the reasons Elan stated. It'd feel too adrupt.

[KorvinStarmast]

Last panel would be perfect without Elan's line, but it's still very good. His contribution (it seems to me) was the excellent set up in previous panels as Roy consults with him in his field of expertise.

Whole strip is full of win. Agree with Breccia's post on how each member's 'being who they are' shines forth.

Behind the door that Haley has selected, the Order will find ... what?

Monsters or nothing? Good 'leave it hanging' feel to this strip also.

[Edreyn]

I'd hope not, exactly for the reasons Elan stated. It'd feel too adrupt.

I don't really believe it myself, but maybe the author will do the twist sometimes used in games: the Order will destroy Team Evil, but then something new and unexpected will happen.

[Reboot]

Absolutely LOVE that Roy has real respect for Elan's ability to see narrative structure!

Apparently, Tarquin left a mark.

[Wraithfighter]

Granted, Roy's probably just using him as a tie-breaker (aka he's been presented with two seemingly equally valid plans, prep for an immediate fight vs hide and draw things out), but I really do enjoy that Roy's realizing that Elan actually does have some sort of cosmic line on the story and how it should be going, and is trying to leverage that for some small tactical advantage.

.........but yeah, this is feeling like even more proof that we're going to get some sort of weird reveals behind at least one of the doors. Maybe it's the OOTS finding the actual gate, maybe it's Team Evil getting trounced, maybe both, but we're definitely well before the Final Confrontation period right now, who knows where things are going to be going...

[Wraithfighter]

Apparently, Tarquin left a mark.

Given the number of times he struck him with a magical weapon, Tarquin probably left quite a few marks on Roy...

[Synesthesy]

So let's start the bets!

What will they find?

A) an already cleared cave filled with corpes and other maybe usefull things
B) a cave filled with monsters that casually are at their level and not at Xykon's
C) a cave filled with epic monsters that make them retreat
D) the gate

[Arkku]

So, the odds of finding the gate at random are, like, a million to one? =)

[Synesthesy]

So, the odds of finding the gate at random are, like, a million to one? =)

So you bet on D, nice!

[Edreyn]

What will they find?

All at once: Team Evil fighting Monsters at the vicinity of the Gate.

[deltamire]

Fantastic strip. Loved every panel of it, and seeing the Order all together and working together as a team (a argumentative, combative and generally pell-mell team, but a team nonetheless) is just so, so so good. Roy in the first panel on the second page just thinking it through and then singling out Elan is such a good change and Minrah just being tugged along and just happy to be here : ) is all solid gold. The different ways the rest of the Order get down the cliff in the first page is a nice touch as well.

[SlashDash]

For the exact reasons stated, I think it's obvious they aren't going to go into a conflict with team evil now. My guess is that things will change into an entirely new direction.

Perhaps something will happen to the gang beyond the door they go in?

Perhaps Xykon will just be tired of chasing Durkon since he really isn't much of a threat?

Perhaps the invisible guys from the end of last book will take the party away?

[drazen]

So, the odds of finding the gate at random are, like, a million to one? =)

One clever way to hide, perhaps:

:durkon: Wall of Stone -- cover up the door they go into. Not sure he has one left after blowing it on the table, though.

:elan: Silent Image -- put a fake rock wall over an "X" door somewhere, so when Redcloak activates True Seeing, he thinks that's where they went.

Bonus being that Oona was wrong, so Xykon won't listen to her tracking a second time, because his personality is to quickly grow impatient with underlings who waste his time.

[BaronOfHell]

So Serini who is the architect of this final obstacle is a rogue, just like Haley. I wonder if Haley realizes some kind of clue everyone else has been missing when choosing which door to go for?

[Cicciograna]

Very nice to see that, after almost 1200 strips, Roy still stands by his words from the last panel of strip 22 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html).

[Goblin_Priest]

Oh wow, this is wonderful. Elan and Roy are great. Loving it.

[Ravenred]

The back and forth on whether they should prep for battle was great. Given Xykon has only burst a couple of slots with his resistance-testing from the cliff-top, feels very much like the right call. Have to imagine that this is the kickoff for the penultimate set of narratives, though.

[Aisper]

I notice all of these plans are predicated on the idea that Team Evil is will show up momentarily. I am going to predict that the Order hides behind a door, prepares their buffs, and...waits. That Team Evil does not chase after them because they have learned something important. If not the location of the Gate, then perhaps something that will change their search pattern. This would put a different time pressure back on the Order.

[Schroeswald]

I missed the Order, welcome back Order, being their amazing selves. Also, I'm starting to think that the Team Evil corridor will be one they've really been in, but this won't be, but this does have a chance of being the gate.

[Darkohaku]

Elan is right, that's spooky.

But the final fight now would be a little too soon, so, Haley's plan is the best for now.

Can't wait for the next strip!

[Mic_128]

One clever way to hide, perhaps:

:durkon: Wall of Stone -- cover up the door they go into. Not sure he has one left after blowing it on the table, though.

:elan: Silent Image -- put a fake rock wall over an "X" door somewhere, so when Redcloak activates True Seeing, he thinks that's where they went.



They would immediately notice the sudden door-sized blank space of rock between the doors.

[Windscion]

Apparently, Tarquin left a mark.

I was gonna say, Daddy would be proud.

[Emperor Time]

I have to agree with Elan here that it doesn't feel right for the final battle yet. Unless someone has just experienced dramatic catharsis in the last few minutes of course. And hopefully they pick a door that doesn't have monsters anymore as well.

[drazen]

They would immediately notice the sudden door-sized blank space of rock between the doors.

The doors are of variable size.

See strip 1203, panel 5. There is a tiny door between two huge ones on the right; on the left is a big stone space. Thus, my suggestion is certainly plausible. True Seeing will show a Wall of Stone as just stone, right?

[CardboardPizzas]

We're totally getting somewhere now! I just love how Roy actually cares about the value Elan can add to the party with his genre-savvy.

[danielxcutter]

I notice all of these plans are predicated on the idea that Team Evil is will show up momentarily. I am going to predict that the Order hides behind a door, prepares their buffs, and...waits. That Team Evil does not chase after them because they have learned something important. If not the location of the Gate, then perhaps something that will change their search pattern. This would put a different time pressure back on the Order.

Or maybe Team Evil is fighting one of those encounters that actually manages to be somewhat of a challenge to them, except this time they're practically naked in terms of buffs.

[Peelee]

Good to see Roy asking Elan's opinion for once.


Okay, that's just heartwarming.

This isn't even a throwaway gag or anything. Roy is actually relying on Elan's expertise for what could be a crucial decision which determines the difference between success and failure on the quest to save the world.


Absolutely LOVE that Roy has real respect for Elan's ability to see narrative structure!

Because that's what heroes leaders do.

[King of Nowhere]

this was a great strip for character interactions. i loved how everyone added something.
i especially liked belkar's simplicity :smallbiggrin:. but even he had some wisdom to share

[pendell]

Love it! Elan contributes meaningfully to the decision, Roy recognizes that the world they in runs on Drama far more on tactical efficiency or any mere rules. And yes, loved "dramatic catharsis" in the last panel . :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Talyn]

The only loose end that really NEEDS tying up is the Monster in the Darkness' character arc - the rest can be handled by post-credits scenes.

Also, the MitD changing sides at the last minute is the kind of 11th-hour game-changer that our VASTLY outclassed party needs to turn the battle against Xykon from 'suicide mission' to 'desperate battle with a chance of success'.

[r2d2go]

The doors are of variable size.

See strip 1203, panel 5. There is a tiny door between two huge ones on the right; on the left is a big stone space. Thus, my suggestion is certainly plausible. True Seeing will show a Wall of Stone as just stone, right?

I like this idea, but it's a little tricky to get to that location without leaving a scent trail. Teleportation could do it, but given V's banned conjuration that seems difficult. Passwall would leave simply a random spot in the mountain, hopefully? But iirc the doors are magically made so you can't simply passwall through them.

[Finagle]

Roy learned from Tarquin that this dramatic crap actually works in this universe, and can be used to your advantage. You just have to be genre-savvy, and know which genre you're in. Tarquin was in the "bad guy wins an empire and rules for 30 years before a paladin breaks into his throne room and kills him" story, and acted accordingly.

Team Evil will disappear. This is because they're in an improperly X'd cave. After quickly dispatching the monsters (off-panel, of course - too hard to draw!) they discover the Gate. OOTS waits till the next day wondering what the hell happened before figuring it out. Possibly befriends bugbear camp.

I don't think OOTS has any way of knowing what the red X's on the doors mean.

[hungrycrow]

The only loose end that really NEEDS tying up is the Monster in the Darkness' character arc - the rest can be handled by post-credits scenes.

Also, the MitD changing sides at the last minute is the kind of 11th-hour game-changer that our VASTLY outclassed party needs to turn the battle against Xykon from 'suicide mission' to 'desperate battle with a chance of success'.

There's also the mysterious invisible guys that captured Lien and Ochul, and the IFCC. It'd be weird to find out what those threats were about after the plot is over.

[IndigoFenix]

Let's not forget the whole deal with the planet in the Gate. We still don't have a clue what that's about, and that seems like a pretty important plot thread to tie up.

[danielxcutter]

Also Redcloak. I suppose not knowing about Start of Darkness doesn't help, but there's a lot of loose threads there as well.

[Xlsfd]

So... I think the "thunderous explosion" V mentions was the Maximized Fireball that Xykon cast at the dwarfs. I can't think there was anything else that could have exploded audibly.

[Crusher]

Excellent strip. And now I finally get why Minrah is there. She’s the audience for the Order to show how much they’ve grow over the course of the comic. She’ll do other things too, like help Durkon with dwarves and clerical things, and she’s got her own stuff to do. But mostly, audience.

[catagent101]

And let's not forgot that we still don't know what Roy's archon has to do (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html).

[Gwynfrid]

The way Rich makes fun of the conventional rules of narrative structure, while still respecting them, is pure, comic genius. And this, while showing each character's personal evolution, too, in just 2 pages. Wow.

[locksmith of lo]

whoa! the rare sunday posting, i did not expect that! no one expects a sunday posting! :smallbiggrin:

[WanderingMist]

Team Evil will disappear. This is because they're in an improperly X'd cave. After quickly dispatching the monsters (off-panel, of course - too hard to draw!) they discover the Gate. OOTS waits till the next day wondering what the hell happened before figuring it out. Possibly befriends bugbear camp.


That would entirely negate the MitD's massive "marking off wrong doors" Chekhov's Gun if Team Evil found the gate in this specific marked door. This is, essentially, the singular time the evil side hasn't found the gate before the good guys. Well, I suppose Girard, but the evil team was there before the good guys, they just fell for the double-bluff since it wasn't Team Evil because Xykon would've seen through that. Or at least decided to blow up the surrounding pillar and discovered it by accident that way.

[Xihirli]

The only loose end that really NEEDS tying up is the Monster in the Darkness' character arc - the rest can be handled by post-credits scenes.

Also, the MitD changing sides at the last minute is the kind of 11th-hour game-changer that our VASTLY outclassed party needs to turn the battle against Xykon from 'suicide mission' to 'desperate battle with a chance of success'.

Well, there’s also “if Redcloak ever betrays me, swallow him whole and spit out that amulet.”

[Fyraltari]

I really thought that the Order would have seen Durkon's and Redcloak's conversation from the ledge. Then again O-Chul needed a spyglass, so maybe that's why.

[drazen]

I like this idea, but it's a little tricky to get to that location without leaving a scent trail. Teleportation could do it, but given V's banned conjuration that seems difficult. Passwall would leave simply a random spot in the mountain, hopefully? But iirc the doors are magically made so you can't simply passwall through them.

They seem to have Fly spells up on Haley (carrying Belkar) and V, but that does leave out Roy and Belkar.

Maybe Serini, the rogue, already did this over the Gate door...?

[understatement]

I really thought that the Order would have seen Durkon's and Redcloak's conversation from the ledge. Then again O-Chul needed a spyglass, so maybe that's why.

The ledge is likely below the bugbear village level.

***

Anyways, yes! the Order is back! Loving Elan, loving the team.

I'll spitball that maybe the Order will run into a comatose Lien and O-Chul in whatever gate they pick.

[Hiro Quester]

There is also the issues of the missing paladins, and what the fiendish trio is planning.

there are quite a few loose story arcs left to resolve.

[Nomen]

Well, there’s also “if Redcloak ever betrays me, swallow him whole and spit out that amulet.”


T Whole and spit out that amulet. It would have been a lot more effective when it was cast but the monster has changed.
[/QUOTE]

[locksmith of lo]

i do not think anyone is just going to just find the gate by accident, with no work involved, that would just be advancing the plot for plot conveniance's sake. now if they found a way to the gate that could be accessed from any of the doors, that would be something completely different altogether. everyone: *that would be something completely different* :smallbiggrin:

[Edreyn]

There is also the issues of the missing paladins, and what the fiendish trio is planning.

there are quite a few loose story arcs left to resolve.

The one I am most worried about is Belkar's prophecy.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

:durkon: Wall of Stone -- cover up the door they go into. Not sure he has one left after blowing it on the table, though.

:elan: Silent Image -- put a fake rock wall over an "X" door somewhere, so when Redcloak activates True Seeing, he thinks that's where they went.

Or

:vaarsuvius: Prestidigitation -- erase every trace of an X, and go there.

[CountDVB]

There's also the mysterious invisible guys that captured Lien and Ochul, and the IFCC. It'd be weird to find out what those threats were about after the plot is over.

Oh for sure. They're the big wild card. I am thinking Durkon could try and divine for them and figure it out. Plus there's the fact that the IFCC still have their time slots on V so that will definitely cause some trouble.

[Ekul]

I really do love seeing character development like this. The group is a far cry from the squabbling party they were at the start of the story. Especially with Roy so earnestly asking Elan without a hint of irony what he thinks.

[Yxylu]

whoa! the rare sunday posting, i did not expect that! no one expects a sunday posting! :smallbiggrin:

I know! Only 6% of the comics come out on Sunday.

[137beth]

Wonderful, Minrah doesn't realize how dysfunctional this team used to be:smallsmile:

[Ezekiel]

Genuinely laughed out loud at the last panel.

[BrotherHanson]

Whatever comes next, I'm loving even the prospect of seeing one or both parties in this dungeon for a bit. Rooting for thrilling hard-fought battles and many twistings and turnings! Especially if visually complex!

[KorvinStarmast]

... but then something new and unexpected will happen. That's been a pattern over the course of the story, yes. The two biggest shocks to the system were (for me) Death of Roy and the moment V realized what familicide had done, with the third one being Durkula's first reveal of being Hel's servant.

:elan: Silent Image -- put a fake rock wall over an "X" door somewhere, so when Redcloak activates True Seeing, he thinks that's where they went. I hope he tries that, he has been using illusions a lot.

Bonus being that Oona was wrong, so Xykon won't listen to her tracking a second time, because his personality is to quickly grow impatient with underlings who waste his time. Yeah.


strip 22 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html). Nice call back. :smallsmile:


Let's not forget the whole deal with the planet in the Gate...{snip} seems like a pretty important plot thread to tie up. I thinks it's a Message. Well see.

Excellent strip. And now I finally get why Minrah is there. {snip} But mostly, audience. Hmm, she looks to me like the crucial pivot for Belkar's next turn in character development, and I think she'll take over some of Belkar's 'truth teller' role once he's dead. And she'll have her own unique contributions that are as yet not clearly spelled out on screen.

:vaarsuvius: Prestidigitation -- erase every trace of an X, and go there. That would be neat, but I am not sure that V has the time for that.

Ooh, I just noticed the connection between Haley's suggestion of hide and her line in the second to last panel where she tells Roy that before she'd made the suggestion she had assessed the situation and picked a few likely doors. That's Smart Haley in action, again.

[Ezekiel]

That would be neat, but I am not sure that V has the time for that.

Couldn't Elan help? I thought Bards got prestidigitation also. :smallconfused:

[KorvinStarmast]

Couldn't Elan help? I thought Bards got prestidigitation also. :smallconfused: Yes, they do, but I don't know if Elan has it prepared. We may soon find out.

[Silverraptor]

Alright, this one was pretty funny all the way through!:smallbiggrin: Also shows how much the group has changed since their humble beginnings.

[Schroeswald]

Yes, they do, but I don't know if Elan has it prepared. We may soon find out.

Bards cast spontaneously, so he doesn't need to prepare it

[KorvinStarmast]

Bards cast spontaneously, so he doesn't need to prepare it Has he ever cast it before?

[Arin]

The two biggest shocks to the system were (for me) Death of Roy and the moment V realized what familicide had done, with the third one being Durkula's first reveal of being Hel's servant.

The Durkula reveal? That was one of the very few things in the comic I actually saw coming. :) But yes, the other two were certainly great moments. The moment V connected the dots on Familicide particularly would definitely also be in my top three. By FAR the first place one would be the reveal of how many planets the gods have actually made, and the third would probably be when I first realized that Belkar was actually on a legitimate redemption arc. I think it was when he gave the speech to Durkula about people not changing who they are in one moment like that, because it was the first time I could really see how his fake character growth was becoming real character growth.

[Anitar]

Gotta agree with Durkon here. I, too, hope the wolf is doing charades.

[Horizon]

This is such an OOTS strip, in the best possible way. So many years of character development were needed to make this moment possible. :D I love this comic!

[Radar]

I notice all of these plans are predicated on the idea that Team Evil is will show up momentarily. I am going to predict that the Order hides behind a door, prepares their buffs, and...waits. That Team Evil does not chase after them because they have learned something important. If not the location of the Gate, then perhaps something that will change their search pattern. This would put a different time pressure back on the Order.
They will most likely learn that a lot of the X marks are fake in a simple manner of seeing an unexplored cavern full of monsters that will keep them occupied for a while.

Come to think of it, the Gate might not even be behind any of those doors. Serini is (was?) a rogue, the many doors is just like a typical shell game and we all already know, how those work (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html).

[TigerT20]

Does anyone know what strips both sets of prophecies are in? I unfortunately feel like I've had my memory wiped on the Oracle.

[LuPuWei]

They're... they're almost ready wipes single tear

[FlawedParadigm]

The Minrah/Belkar part of the last panel absolutely needs to be a shirt or wallpaper or something.

[Yxylu]

Does anyone know what strips both sets of prophecies are in? I unfortunately feel like I've had my memory wiped on the Oracle.

331 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and 572 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) are the main ones, in the online strips.

[Schroeswald]

Has he ever cast it before?

Panel 13 is probably Prestigitation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html).

[Riftwolf]

Endgame spoiler
If Elan had been in my MCU, that film would've played out differently :b

[Wraithfighter]

The only loose end that really NEEDS tying up is the Monster in the Darkness' character arc - the rest can be handled by post-credits scenes.

Also, the MitD changing sides at the last minute is the kind of 11th-hour game-changer that our VASTLY outclassed party needs to turn the battle against Xykon from 'suicide mission' to 'desperate battle with a chance of success'.

There's also:


Redcloak's deception over Xykon's phylactery
Redcloak's deception about what the ritual will do
IFCC's ultimate plans (and two time-shares on V's soul)
The truth about what's happening with the Snarl and the planet in the rifts
Who captured Lien and O-chul and what their part in all this is


...and probably a few other things. We're still in like Act 1 of the finale, there's a whooooole lot of unknowns still on the board.

[Qwerty Shrdlu]

Opening some more doors could be interesting- the more doors left open, the greater the odds that something will come out.

[elros]

Wonderful, Minrah doesn't realize how dysfunctional this team used to be:smallsmile:
Minrah is experiencing her advice to Belkar (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html):
"everyone who meets you from that point on... only knows the new version of you."

[Lex]

As Elan said, way too soon for a confrontation with team Evil. What I personally hope to happen now if for the Order to meet the invisible guys and be reunited with Lien and O-Chul.

[NobleCuriosity]

Personally I like the contrast between panels 2 and 3: Roy steeling himself to just go help and then not being able to keep himself from getting mad when he sees Durkon isn’t in immediate danger. “There’s something to be said for instant gratification,” indeed. I found that funny, the reminder that even Roy has limits to putting tactics first, even if he gets over it. That and the way he eloquently expresses something that most seekers of instant gratification leave unsaid.

[Arael666]

So you bet on D, nice!

Well, it is a good D

[Giggling Ghast]

Elan’s right, though. This really isn’t the right time for the climactic confrontation.

[Krakes]

So I'm sure someone's already noticed this, but Durkon (and maybe Minrah, too) now have the information they need to bring down the Redcoak-Xykon alliance by spilling the beans on what the ritual really does. That would certainly make for a dramatic reveal that Elan would love.

[Krakes]

331 and 572


Does anyone know what strips both sets of prophecies are in? I unfortunately feel like I've had my memory wiped on the Oracle.

[mjasghar]

I was gonna say, Daddy would be proud.

You must have read those strips with your eyes closed then. Tarquin wanted him to be the leader and focus, not an advisor.

[Coventry]

There's also:


Redcloak's deception over Xykon's phylactery
Redcloak's deception about what the ritual will do
IFCC's ultimate plans (and two time-shares on V's soul)
The truth about what's happening with the Snarl and the planet in the rifts
Who captured Lien and O-chul and what their part in all this is


...and probably a few other things. We're still in like Act 1 of the finale, there's a whooooole lot of unknowns still on the board.

There is also the person who appeared in only one panel but that will be very important in the strip.

[mjasghar]

Looking at strip numbers and plot progression
I think this is the end of the first third of the book
Essentially we have set up, resolution of set up and consequential threads for the middle
So I think maybe 1 or 2 more strips and then we have the middle main action
Most likely a side by side plot where the Order encounter the Voices and paladins and get some debriefing and more Crayons
Meanwhile Team Evil will end up doing something that enables them to find the Gate
This causes the Order to have to rush in
My guess is a lot of things will cancel each other out
Roy’s archon will help cancel out the fiends
The paladins and Voices will cancel out summoned lackeys and monsters
Elan and Haley and Durkon and Minrah will be in the debuff/buff camp and occupy redclaok
Which leaves Roy vs Xykon with Belkar sacrificing himself
This will be especially poignant as the last book showed Roy is the only one who hasn’t accepted Belkar’s (limited) redemption arc.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I haven't been this proud of Roy since he asked Belkar for his opinion back in the pyramid.

[Goblin_Priest]

Apparently, Tarquin left a mark.

Indeed! I love this strip, but it did feel like there was a bit of Tarquin echoing in there. Elan's mastery of drama and narrative rules never felt as deterministic as Tarquin's. Elan always felt to me like he liked a good story, and actively worked to make his story good, while Tarquin felt more like he knew how stories worked, and abused the story to make it work for him. Which is what Roy's trying to do with Elan here.

The only time Elan really indulged in this that comes to my mind is when V and O'Chul teleported back to Durkon and Elan, thanks to MitD, and Elan incorectly predicted what the rules of drama would have the universe do next. That said, there are probably a ton of contrary examples I'm just not thinking of.

[Psyren]

So let's start the bets!

What will they find?

A) an already cleared cave filled with corpes and other maybe usefull things
B) a cave filled with monsters that casually are at their level and not at Xykon's
C) a cave filled with epic monsters that make them retreat
D) the gate


So, the odds of finding the gate at random are, like, a million to one? =)


So you bet on D, nice!

Put me down for D too. Or at least something that lets them realize which door it is when TE didn't.

Also, I'm still banking on:
by accident
find the gate (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html)

[skim172]

My money was on "build to a false climax, THEN a rug pull brought about by some massive central plot twist, opening a whole new section of the story."

An overtime, if you will.

[Alcore]

So let's start the bets!

What will they find?

A) an already cleared cave filled with corpes and other maybe usefull things
B) a cave filled with monsters that casually are at their level and not at Xykon's
C) a cave filled with epic monsters that make them retreat
D) the gate

none of the monster are specifically at Xykon's level that we know of. He remarked once that some were able to give him xp. His rough level is about 25 with class and templates. You can only get xp from encounters 8 levels above or below.

The CR of the monsters are in the mid teens with some being 17+ CR.

Well within the parties range.

[Shining Wrath]

Never change, Elan.

I think Belkar is beginning to develop a smidgen of wisdom - "That's the worst case for your plan, too, so why not cut to the chase?".

What none of them suggested is that Xykon is likely to get bored, or start to think about why only part of OotS showed up his camp if their intention was battle - and if it wasn't, what were they there for? I still don't think Redcloak wants to have that conversation.

[danielxcutter]

none of the monster are specifically at Xykon's level that we know of. He remarked once that some were able to give him xp. His rough level is about 25 with class and templates. You can only get xp from encounters 8 levels above or below.

The CR of the monsters are in the mid teens with some being 17+ CR.

Well within the parties range.

The Geekery thread strongly suggests that he has to have quite more than just 21 levels in Sorcerer; the most likely scenario is Sorcerer 26+.

Even if he was just a 21st-level Sorcerer, that means at least some are at least CR 18 and there seem to be a fair number of monsters not too far behind considering how battered Team Evil is. Not CR 17; you don't get any XP aside from ad-hoc if the CR of the monster is 8 higher or lower than yours, so within 7 levels either way.

[Jacky720]

Or

:vaarsuvius: Prestidigitation -- erase every trace of an X, and go there.
I like this one. Keep it simple. Redcloak is probably too pissed after the last double-bluff to put any stock in another. Heck, maybe even play it straight and just rely on the number of doors.


They will most likely learn that a lot of the X marks are fake in a simple manner of seeing an unexplored cavern full of monsters that will keep them occupied for a while.

Come to think of it, the Gate might not even be behind any of those doors. Serini is (was?) a rogue, the many doors is just like a typical shell game and we all already know, how those work (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html).
:haley: But remember that they were the ones to pull off that shell game in the first place. I would bet 10 gp that they already searched every inch of that chasm before they started picking doors at random. (that was from memory don't @ me)

Oh look, quotes broke and I'm too lazy to fix it.


The multiple choice one
I hadn't thought of B before, but I like it.

[Shining Wrath]

So let's start the bets!

What will they find?

A) an already cleared cave filled with corpes and other maybe usefull things
B) a cave filled with monsters that casually are at their level and not at Xykon's
C) a cave filled with epic monsters that make them retreat
D) the gate

A cave which might contain any of the above, but they don't go any deeper than the entrance. They aren't looking for trouble.


One clever way to hide, perhaps:

:durkon: Wall of Stone -- cover up the door they go into. Not sure he has one left after blowing it on the table, though.

:elan: Silent Image -- put a fake rock wall over an "X" door somewhere, so when Redcloak activates True Seeing, he thinks that's where they went.

Bonus being that Oona was wrong, so Xykon won't listen to her tracking a second time, because his personality is to quickly grow impatient with underlings who waste his time.

The real problem is we have established Greyview can track by scent. Unless someone can pop off an "eliminate scents for some distance" spell, he'll sniff them out.


Roy learned from Tarquin that this dramatic crap actually works in this universe, and can be used to your advantage. You just have to be genre-savvy, and know which genre you're in. Tarquin was in the "bad guy wins an empire and rules for 30 years before a paladin breaks into his throne room and kills him" story, and acted accordingly.

Team Evil will disappear. This is because they're in an improperly X'd cave. After quickly dispatching the monsters (off-panel, of course - too hard to draw!) they discover the Gate. OOTS waits till the next day wondering what the hell happened before figuring it out. Possibly befriends bugbear camp.

I don't think OOTS has any way of knowing what the red X's on the doors mean.

I think they talked to Lien and learned that Team Evil was marking the doors. But I also think that narratively channels Elan it would be about the right time for Team Evil to discover some doors are improperly marked. And suspicion will fall on MitD, because he's been marking doors recently. However, MitD is smart enough to have come up with an explanation.

[Ruck]

Looking at strip numbers and plot progression
I think this is the end of the first third of the book

29 strips is not going to be one-third of the book. It's closer to one-third of one-third of the book.

[Grey Watcher]

Minrah and Belkar in the last panel have another classic OOTS exchange!

It's interesting to see V advocate for the less cautious approach.

[mjasghar]

I meant the first third as in beginning middle and end plot wise
We have the set up for what’s going on with Team Evil - in a cave that they may well not have done and possibly the Superb Dispel about to be used resulting in finding the secret of the dungeons. Meanwhile the Order are also about to enter. So maybe one or 2 strips as they get ready with buffs etc
The middle will likely be the longest part of the story so will take up more than a third in number
Then the denouement and coda similar lengths to the beginning

[Anitar]

I wonder which skill Elan had to roll for to make that judgment call.
...Also, I have no clue what he meant by "dramatic catharsis".

[ebarde]

I wonder if this book will come full circle and have a majority of it be a dungeon crawler

[A r c a d i a]

Guys, what if this has actually progressed further than we expected, but not in terms of “the final fight with Team Evil”.

What if that thunderous explosion Vaarsuvius heard was actually Team Evil inadvertently blowing up the last Gate somehow?

That... would change the current direction of everything A LOT.

[Peelee]

Guys, what if this has actually progressed further than we expected, but not in terms of “the final fight with Team Evil”.

What if that thunderous explosion Vaarsuvius heard was actually Team Evil inadvertently blowing up the last Gate somehow?

That... would change the current direction of everything A LOT.

Well, in theory, that would change the current direction to "the gods destroy the universe and the comic is over".

[A r c a d i a]

Well, in theory, that would change the current direction to "the gods destroy the universe and the comic is over".
That’s assuming the gods could immediately and unanimously decide to nuke the world. While I don’t disagree that destroying the world is what their likely decision would be, and it would ramp up the timetable a lot, I don’t know that it would be that sudden.

Heck, we could even have the Snarl break out and end up being “different” than we expected, with some revelations about the world within the rift and such. The Snarl breaking out is a narrative possibility that doesn’t have to immediately end the comic.

[KorvinStarmast]

Panel 13 is probably Prestigitation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html). And Lovecraft wept.
(I think you are correct)

Elan’s right, though. This really isn’t the right time for the climactic confrontation.Yeah, he's got a point there. We are only a couple of dozen pages into the book.

[Peelee]

That’s assuming the gods could immediately and unanimously decide to nuke the world. While I don’t disagree that destroying the world is what their likely decision would be, and it would ramp up the timetable a lot, I don’t know that it would be that sudden.

Heck, we could even have the Snarl break out and end up being “different” than we expected, with some revelations about the world within the rift and such. The Snarl breaking out is a narrative possibility that doesn’t have to immediately end the comic.

True, they wouldn't destroy the universe immediately. They would destroy the universe in less than ten to fifteen minutes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html).

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Dion]

So, I’ve seen a few movies, so I know how this stuff works.

Sometimes an attractive enough hero can randomly wander around like a dumb schmuck and stumble through David Bowie’s labyrinth or find the princess in a space fortress in a galaxy with 50 million systems, or whatever impossible random coincidence you won’t think too much about while eating popcorn.

But if that doesn’t work right away, then there’s always a secret trick. And the trick is invariably “it was with you all along”.

And that is how we know that the final gate must be with Oona. Or maybe Grayview. Or Belkar.

Yes, thats it! I’ve solved it! The final gate is Belkar, and he unlocks it by being slightly less awful.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh yeah, I forgot about these funny little characters.

[bunsen_h]

The real problem is we have established Greyview can track by scent. Unless someone can pop off an "eliminate scents for some distance" spell, he'll sniff them out.

Terry Pratchett has shown how to solve that: blast the area with something utterly putrid. Essence of skunk mixed with concentrated rotting flesh, kind of thing.


I think they talked to Lien and learned that Team Evil was marking the doors. But I also think that narratively channels Elan it would be about the right time for Team Evil to discover some doors are improperly marked. And suspicion will fall on MitD, because he's been marking doors recently. However, MitD is smart enough to have come up with an explanation.

If the Order are able to erase a bunch of door markings, that issue will be covered.

[Darth Paul]

whoa! the rare sunday posting, i did not expect that! no one expects a sunday posting! :smallbiggrin:

In fact, those who DO expect a Sunday posting.... no no, our chief weapons are surprise, fear, and.... I'll start again...

[Thermophille]

Right now, I have three major questions.

1. Will the door the Order hides in have monsters?

2. Does the Order have the resources and skills necessary to hide themselves in any case from an inspection?

3. How the Order be able to get out if they hide for long enough?


I think the answer to 1. will be interesting. The Order is ~16th level (judging by Varsavius' ability to prepare 3 copies of Mind Blank), in the same general ballpark as Redcloak and (presumably) Oona. If Team Evil is able to clear 6 dungeons in a day, the Order should be able to handle one, especially with 6 members. Either way, I think the next few strips will mostly focus on TE, and their reaction to what they find in the door, which the general consensus seems to be 'definitely monsters, but probably not the gate'.

For 2, I think that between Oona and Greyview, the Order can't hide. But since I think we're going to get into the 'blame game' of who's been marking doors pretty soon, I think that will distract them long enough for Xykon to dismiss two random dwarf clerics that he doesn't care about, and Redcloak isn't going to tell him why they were there. The issue of whether he'll blame them for marking them and trying to lure him into a trap, or if they'll settle on MitD has already been discussed, but either way, I think it will provide a distraction.

As for 3, we could end up with the Order hiding in there until they regain spell slots not knowing about the distraction, or we could have them leave once the coast is clear and Xykon is distracted by someone foiling his search. I don't think the question here is whether they'll be able to get out (as Elan said, we're at the beginning of the end, no time for the climax), but if we're going to spend a significant amount of time with the Order inside one of the doors.

[Mariele]

Wow. Possibly the single (double?) strip where everyone's pesonality is best displayed, all at once.
Agreed!

Couldn't wait to see the group finding Durkon, didn't expect it to go like this. I really thought they'd all fly/run back to the paladin's hideout! Can't wait to see what's inside the doors, now. :D It's getting good!

[Alcore]

The Geekery thread strongly suggests that he has to have quite more than just 21 levels in Sorcerer; the most likely scenario is Sorcerer 26+.

Even if he was just a 21st-level Sorcerer, that means at least some are at least CR 18 and there seem to be a fair number of monsters not too far behind considering how battered Team Evil is. Not CR 17; you don't get any XP aside from ad-hoc if the CR of the monster is 8 higher or lower than yours, so within 7 levels either way.i stand corrected on CR xp rates. I just don't have the energy to do the research...

if he is sorcerer 26+ then his level is 30+ after templates...

Remember; they are doing the doors like evil PCs, templates need to be counted. Xykon doesn't really travel like most epics and is a big fish in a small pond. The idea of him still leveling after 21 or 22 seems unlikely to me; there just isn't enough stuff left in the material to challenge him after getting a +4 level template.

[danielxcutter]

i stand corrected on CR xp rates. I just don't have the energy to do the research...

if he is sorcerer 26+ then his level is 30+ after templates...

Remember; they are doing the doors like evil PCs, templates need to be counted. Xykon doesn't really travel like most epics and is a big fish in a small pond. The idea of him still leveling after 21 or 22 seems unlikely to me; there just isn't enough stuff left in the material to challenge him after getting a +4 level template.

I can't say for sure if he is that high, as there are reasonable non-epic methods of doing some of the things he does. But at the same time it also doesn't really seem like he'd really be just level 21 or so.

Also FYI, the Nightcrawler the Ex-arch summoned with Gate is also a CR 18 monster. Dungeons that have more than one monster stronger than that, as well as many others not too far behind would be honestly pretty hard for the Order, especially considering how low-op they are.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow, this was so good. After the excitement of Durkon's retreat, we have the Order united, working together and Elan being Elan. The heat is on, and the suspense builds.

[Bar Deck Lore]

Excellent strip!

I loved everyone's skills coming to use in the decision-making, Elan's lampshade, and I especially loved Minrah's and Belkar's exchange in the final panel!

I also can't wait to find out what both teams are going to find behind their respective doors.

[Cavenskull]

That would entirely negate the MitD's massive "marking off wrong doors" Chekhov's Gun if Team Evil found the gate in this specific marked door. This is, essentially, the singular time the evil side hasn't found the gate before the good guys. Well, I suppose Girard, but the evil team was there before the good guys, they just fell for the double-bluff since it wasn't Team Evil because Xykon would've seen through that. Or at least decided to blow up the surrounding pillar and discovered it by accident that way.
There's also Soon's gate. Not only did they end up in its presence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0266.html) before Team Evil did, but they were also aware of that fact (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html).

[Darth Paul]

Also FYI, the Nightcrawler the Ex-arch summoned with Gate is also a CR 18 monster. Dungeons that have more than one monster stronger than that, as well as many others not too far behind would be honestly pretty hard for the Order, especially considering how low-op they are.

Looking back, I don't think I've ever had an optimized character in any RPG, ever, in my life. It just seemed like too much work.

That's how I wound up with characters like an 18th level human Wizard who specialized in Transmutation, had a proficiency with the longsword (to match the miniature I was using), and had two hirelings to load and pass him heavy crossbows during rounds when he couldn't think of a spell to cast. And also the Run feat, because, you know how many spells have a range of "Touch"? Enemies hate that. You need to be able to run away real fast the next round.

[Anitar]

True, they wouldn't destroy the universe immediately. They would destroy the universe in less than ten to fifteen minutes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html).
If they all agree on that course of action beforehand, he says. They seem to be logjammed by the "Because four gates are gone, should we nuke the world?" question.

[Quartz]

So Serini who is the architect of this final obstacle is a rogue, just like Haley. I wonder if Haley realizes some kind of clue everyone else has been missing when choosing which door to go for?

It's a shell game.

[Edreyn]

It's a shell game.

In a shell game of a true professional, the prize isn't under any of cups at all. Maybe same about the Gate.

[Jaecp]

Oh my god! After how long? After so many years of jokes and frustration and growth we finally see Roy explicitly just ask for Elans advice and its like it was always meant to be!!!

I am squeeing in bed y'all, you got not idea!


Granted, Roy's probably just using him as a tie-breaker (aka he's been presented with two seemingly equally valid plans, prep for an immediate fight vs hide and draw things out), but I really do enjoy that Roy's realizing that Elan actually does have some sort of cosmic line on the story and how it should be going, and is trying to leverage that for some small tactical advantage.

.........but yeah, this is feeling like even more proof that we're going to get some sort of weird reveals behind at least one of the doors. Maybe it's the OOTS finding the actual gate, maybe it's Team Evil getting trounced, maybe both, but we're definitely well before the Final Confrontation period right now, who knows where things are going to be going...

Did durkon clue any of the rest of the order into this being an explicitly self aware world as per word of god?

[Hopeless]

Endgame spoiler
If Elan had been in my MCU, that film would've played out differently :b

Would this mean Elan would have been playing Star Lord?

[Jaecp]

My money was on "build to a false climax, THEN a rug pull brought about by some massive central plot twist, opening a whole new section of the story."

An overtime, if you will.

I've been thinking for almost a year now that this won't be the last book and that the real last book will be on the world of the snarl

[Sebastian]

Knowing Xykon I'd bet he insisted the wolf do charades, because it is hilarious..

[Darkever]

Roy that asks for plot advice to Elan is amazing ahahah. Absolutely brilliant! 😂😂😂

[deltamire]

I was just thinking . . . is this the first proper in-motion deliberation the Order's gotten since, uh . . . page 840 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html), eight years ago??? V goes AWOL in the next couple of pages and then Durkon gets Gregg-ed (?) later on, so the Order is down by two until here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html), but that's more of a reunion than a tactics conference. Holy moly. No wonder everyone's feeling like the dynamics are good - we've been building to this for literal years!

Everyone's grown up and developed so much. Roy dealt with that whole bubbling trauma/chip on his shoulder combination about leadership in the Godsmoot Arc, Haley finally vented her feelings about not being a good person vis a vis her dad and Crystal, V is trying to make up for their . . . everything, Elan has taken up the role of support with gusto instead of following every whim, Durkon's got a new buddy and a new sense of direction, and Belkar is rolling down the thorny hill of Character Development whether he likes it or not. Go team. Everyone gets a lollipop and a sticker that says I partook in pan-party character development and it only took 1/3 of us croaking it to get here.

[Sebastian]

Guys, what if this has actually progressed further than we expected, but not in terms of “the final fight with Team Evil”.

What if that thunderous explosion Vaarsuvius heard was actually Team Evil inadvertently blowing up the last Gate somehow?

That... would change the current direction of everything A LOT.

An exploding gate would be much more obvious.

[Metastachydium]

An exploding gate would be much more obvious.

Not to mention that they would recognize that one by immediate auditory familiarity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html).

[Wysper]

Amazing to see how much growth they have all under gone. What an amazing story. Are we nearing the end? Supposed to be the last book, but as Elan said, too many loose threads (Snarl anyone?).

[woweedd]

Elan's skills may not be much, but, where it counts, they work.

[Fincher]

Amazing to see how much growth they have all under gone. What an amazing story. Are we nearing the end? Supposed to be the last book, but as Elan said, too many loose threads (Snarl anyone?).

Eh, the Snarl isn't that important. What we need to know is if anyone ever does buy something at Jiminy's Polearm Emporium.

[harami2000]

The real problem is we have established Greyview can track by scent. Unless someone can pop off an "eliminate scents for some distance" spell, he'll sniff them out.
Ha! Fuzzball's wolfie didn't get enough credit for taking the initiative to locate the dwarves or immediately choosing the best course of action when silenced, did they?

(Still wanting to see charading Greyview bonus art. :smallcool: Pretty pleeeeease...)

[BelgarathMTH]

I just can't wait to finally see what the Monster in the Dark is.

[WanderingMist]

none of the monster are specifically at Xykon's level that we know of. He remarked once that some were able to give him xp. His rough level is about 25 with class and templates. You can only get xp from encounters 8 levels above or below.

The CR of the monsters are in the mid teens with some being 17+ CR.

Well within the parties range.

Wait, why is there a limit on levels above granting XP? If you can take on something 10 levels above you somehow, I feel that should be worth more than 8 levels above you.

[Yendor]

The real problem is we have established Greyview can track by scent. Unless someone can pop off an "eliminate scents for some distance" spell, he'll sniff them out.
If only their ranger had enough Wisdom to cast 1st level spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm)

[danielxcutter]

Wait, why is there a limit on levels above granting XP? If you can take on something 10 levels above you somehow, I feel that should be worth more than 8 levels above you.

Because if your DM is throwing something that higher than you, something is probably wrong I think. Ad-hoc XP is a thing at least.

It’s why I don’t feel comfortable pegging Xykon that high despite being the most likely scenario. He is so much higher level than anyone besides maybe the MitD that I’d bet 5k quatloos and my left arsecheek that Xykon ends up taken out by showing him into the Gate instead of the Order actually being capable of doing anything of worth.

[KorvinStarmast]

Supposed to be the last book, but as Elan said, too many loose threads (Snarl anyone?). :smallwink: Yeah, and if we look back to strip 1 of this book, it starts with a whole bunch of snarly threads (well, yarn) And way back when, Odin had something to say about yarn... I see worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)

(Still wanting to see charading Greyview bonus art. :smallcool: Pretty pleeeeease...) I'll second that request.

I just can't wait to finally see what the Monster in the Dark is. I'll wager about two RL years from now; about mid book or so.

[The MunchKING]

I've been thinking for almost a year now that this won't be the last book and that the real last book will be on the world of the snarl

Well that would require Rich to be lying to us when he said this was the last book. I think a more reasonable answer would be it's not a different book it's just all crammed into one really big book.


Wait, why is there a limit on levels above granting XP? If you can take on something 10 levels above you somehow, I feel that should be worth more than 8 levels above you.

The idea is if your party beat something THAT much above you, you probably didn't contribute much. Also to keep a group of Level 1s from hanging out with a level 20 NPC and just siphoning off all his CR 20 encounters to just slingshot themselves over all the early levels. :p

[Jason]

Roy and Elan's relationship has actually come full circle. Roy put him on the team in the first place because Elan understood the genre conventions around building a team of adventurers. Now he's relying on Elan's knowledge of genre conventions to determine when a final battle should be fought. Elan is in effect doing the job he was hired for, and Roy finally understands how best to use Elan's talents for the party's success.

[Quartz]

In a shell game of a true professional, the prize isn't under any of cups at all. Maybe same about the Gate.

Precisely. We (the audience) were shown where the rift was in one of the crayon strips and it wasn't in the canyon.

[The MunchKING]

Precisely. We (the audience) were shown where the rift was in one of the crayon strips and it wasn't in the canyon.

I thought part of the reason they went broke though was that she built the plot-device "Can't warp through it" rock mountain around the rift.

[InvisibleBison]

Precisely. We (the audience) were shown where the rift was in one of the crayon strips and it wasn't in the canyon.

I was under the impression that the crayon strips depicted Shojo's understanding of the truth, not the actual truth, and thus didn't depict the actual layout of the area around Kraagor's gate, because Shojo didn't know the details of the layout. That's why the terrain depicted in #276 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) doesn't match with what is shown once the story actually reaches the area.

[TuringTest]

I usually don't literally laugh out loud, but the exchange between Belkar and Minrah has broken the trend. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think Elan's self-doubt being in the same panel is too much, really. This one is a choral strip, and to focus only on both of them for the last panel would have given too much importance to the punchline. This way, it maintains the rhythm and style. AND we get multiple jokes.

[Riftwolf]

Would this mean Elan would have been playing Star Lord?

I meant Elan would know you can't go after the main villain 10-15mins into the last film and expect a satisfying conclusion.

[Frozenstep]

In a shell game of a true professional, the prize isn't under any of cups at all. Maybe same about the Gate.

Probably, but in this case I think the solution isn't some silly "the gate was actually inside the statue the whole time!" thing, I think the gate is in a cave with no entrances/exits. The only way you're getting in is if you follow one particular door's pathway, stop at some non-descript part in the middle of it, and dig in a specific direction. And face all sorts of earth elementals while you do that.

[Finagle]

Serini's Gate:

https://i.imgur.com/ZutxXYE.jpg

[gatemansgc]

lol roy asked elan for his opinion.

but we know it's not final confrontation time, we have a few irl years before then!

[warmachine]

Oona's wolf may create some silent comedy as it runs up to Oona and no one can cast spells. Everyone runs away, followed by the wolf.

[ManuelSacha]

Good thinking, Roy.
Drama-sense is foolproof. Elan-proof, even.

[Anitar]

Eh, the Snarl isn't that important. What we need to know is if anyone ever does buy something at Jiminy's Polearm Emporium.
He'd have to stock something first.


In a shell game of a true professional, the prize isn't under any of cups at all. Maybe same about the Gate.
In the shell game of an absolute master, the prize isn't under any cup-- OR the dealer's sleeve, either. Given that Serini put together hundreds of dungeons, each with some monsters strong enough to give Xykon XP, I think it's safe to say she's done literally as much as possible to defend this gate.

In light of this... I can't help but feel like the entire "Making the right guess isn't how you get there, and I have an idea what the trick might be" crowd is also barking up the wrong tree, somehow.

[bunsen_h]

This is obviously a metaphor for the importance of as many Americans as possible making their contributions to the current democratic voting process. :smallbiggrin: [carefully avoiding any reference to sides]

[Rogar Demonblud]

29 strips is not going to be one-third of the book. It's closer to one-third of one-third of the book.

It's 36.5 pages right now, so about 10%. Actually, given the intro and recap strips, you're probably right.

[Dion]

It's a shell game.

No, it’s much simpler. Serini drew hearts in her notebook because she believed in the power of love. The key to the gate is clearly love, just like the Fifth Element.

Xykon doesn’t have a chance because he has no heart.

[Rogar Demonblud]

*ba-dum-tish*

This is obviously a metaphor for the importance of as many Americans as possible making their contributions to the current democratic voting process. :smallbiggrin: [carefully avoiding any reference to sides]

Interesting factoid: When the Lewis & Clark Expedition was overwintering on the Oregon coast, they had a vote on which way to try and head home come spring. This is the first known vote where both a woman (Sacajawea) and a black man (York) were allowed to cast ballots.

[Sneaky 2.0]

Wait. Roy had a dramatic catharsis when he yelled at Durkon and Minrah in panel 3. :smalleek:

[InvisibleBison]

Wait. Roy had a dramatic catharsis when he yelled at Durkon and Minrah in panel 3. :smalleek:

I don't think that really qualifies as dramatic.

[bravelove]

I'd argue REDCLOAK had a dramatic catharsis as he was FINALLY allowed to rant about the goblins and make his points, which is making me wonder if Elan's last line may be foreshadowing some Redcloak thing, or maybe I'm overthinking

[Particle_Man]

I love (and feel slightly called out by) that last panel. :smallsmile:

[tcrudisi]

I know there's a recency bias at work here, but dang it, this was easily one of the funniest lines in the comic so far:

"I love how this team listens to each other and works together."
"That's only 'cause we tried every other option first."

I actually regret Elan's line immediately after. It just couldn't compare to the brilliance of Belkar's line. I literally laughed out loud until there were tears in my eyes.

Thank you, Giant. Thank you.

[Olinser]

So now that the OOTS is ALSO rushing into a door, this makes me still believe that there is some combination of multiple doors required to access the Gate, rather than just picking the right single door.

Either that or it required a party of specific makeup/alignments to access the Gate and the OOTS is about to accidentally trigger it.

[Dion]

or.Either that or it required a party of specific makeup/alignments to access the Gate and the OOTS is about to accidentally trigger it.

Or... the gate isn’t behind a door.

I beginning to suspect Oona knows where the gate is, and she’s not telling.

[Peelee]

Or... the gate isn’t behind a door.

I beginning to suspect Oona knows where the gate is, and she’s not telling.

Oona joined specifically to make sure they didn't deplete the monster caves, since the village relies on the monsters. The easiest way to do that would be to tell them where the Gate is, if she knew.

[Canisius]

Awesome, as always, Giant.

[InvisibleBison]

Oona joined specifically to make sure they didn't deplete the monster caves, since the village relies on the monsters. The easiest way to do that would be to tell them where the Gate is, if she knew.

But that's assuming that Oona is who she says she is. What if Oona is really Serini in disguise (and also Redcloak's niece)?

[Alcore]

Wait, why is there a limit on levels above granting XP? If you can take on something 10 levels above you somehow, I feel that should be worth more than 8 levels above you.

Assuming WBL is followed. And decently optimized PCs a DM should be stopping around five levels above. Four is the usual single boss area. Three or less if he has help due to action economy.

At 8 levels combat should be lethal for anyone not the monster...

If you can take on something 10 levels something is vary wrong. Quite possible the monster has too many templates and doesn't have enough HP but usually it's the player side the problem is coming from.

[Dion]

But that's assuming that Oona is who she says she is. What if Oona is really Serini in disguise (and also Redcloak's niece)?

It seems... odd... that the way they would avoid depleting the caves is by going through all the caves one by one and... err... depleting them.

But Serini seems to have built hundreds of caves, holding thousands of monsters. And for some reason there’s a very convenient beast master living right next door to the caves devoted to making sure the caves stay nice and healthy and full of monsters.

And that just seems interesting.

Maybe it’s just a coincidence. Maybe it isn’t.

[Shirow]

I really like the look of the Order fighting or at least preparing to fight in winter wear, outdoors. So I really liked this one.


Eh, the Snarl isn't that important. What we need to know is if anyone ever does buy something at Jiminy's Polearm Emporium.

We have stores like that around town here too and...
Of course people do, just not through the front door...

It's probably a front for some other more lucrative business handled through the backdoor. In my head cannon, the weapon supply to the Azure City Resistance Underground etc. etc. might have been connected to Cousin Jiminy's underground network, which kind of explains why he doesn't sell anything there. He can get a much better deal from people in a bind, all of his inventory is already reserved to freedom fighters and such, and he gets to stick it to those lawful types when they come in.:smallbiggrin:

[Shirow]

Serini's Gate:

https://i.imgur.com/ZutxXYE.jpg

Soooo the ravine and the "side" where all of the doors are is artificial. They did mention it was "made from multidimensional stone (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html)" so they could have raised the whole level of the thing (and then it is one of the doors next to the floor); or they could have dug down and it's one of the doors near the top. Hmmm....

[GreatWyrmGold]

After all this time, the Order is finally working together like a well-oiled machine.

A well-oiled machine made by combining parts from incompatible machines, but a well-oiled one.

[Frozenstep]

I know there's a recency bias at work here, but dang it, this was easily one of the funniest lines in the comic so far:

"I love how this team listens to each other and works together."
"That's only 'cause we tried every other option first."

I actually regret Elan's line immediately after. It just couldn't compare to the brilliance of Belkar's line. I literally laughed out loud until there were tears in my eyes.

Thank you, Giant. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a little tragic Elan's line couldn't fit in a panel or two sooner.

[Fincher]

To me, the best reconciling between Serini being a thief and her defending the gate with might would be if somewhere between the tunnels there were a pocket of stone with the gate inside of it. Even if Team Evil knew that, they wouldn't know where, so they'd still have to dig through and run into monsters and, unless they efficiently start digging in one corner and work to the other side instead of digging in random spots, potentially turn it into a confusing labyrinth in the process. If they carefully charted all the tunnels as they emptied them out, they'd have a map showing potential spots to dig, but of course they haven't been doing that. That way anyone after the gate still needs might, but they also need to think through what they're doing, and random adventurers (or the bugbears) aren't going to just happen across the gate without meaning to.

I don't think it'll be in a completely different location because the only reason anyone thinks the gate is there is because she put it in her journal, and if she was going to fill her journal with misinformation she wouldn't be talking about the gates at all.

[Olinser]

In a shell game of a true professional, the prize isn't under any of cups at all. Maybe same about the Gate.

Not quite true.

In the shell game of a true professional, the prize is under whatever cup the professional wants, whenever they want it to be there. When they want somebody to win a low-value game, they force them to win. When somebody places a big bet and its time to pluck the chicken, it doesn't matter what you pick, you lose, and they'll SHOW you the prize under a different cup. Sometimes they'll even let you switch cups and then show you the ball under the cup you gave up, to twist the knife.

[Forikroder]

even if Serini was planning a shell game type deception, it makes more sense to put the deception behind all the monsters, if you clear 100 doors finding nothing eventually your gonna get lax searching especially if the monsters exhaust all your stamina and spell slots

[Wraithfighter]

Not quite true.

In the shell game of a true professional, the prize is under whatever cup the professional wants, whenever they want it to be there. When they want somebody to win a low-value game, they force them to win. When somebody places a big bet and its time to pluck the chicken, it doesn't matter what you pick, you lose, and they'll SHOW you the prize under a different cup. Sometimes they'll even let you switch cups and then show you the ball under the cup you gave up, to twist the knife.

........huh.

That... brings a question to mind. Or a thought or possibility. Not sure exactly.

What if Kragoor's Tombs were like instanced dungeons in an MMORPG? You go into the door, and come into this, well, dungeon with a lot of monsters to kill and more loot to get... governed by a Random Number Generator. I'm not sure if Extradimensional Stone could do that, but that sounds to me like a "Magic magic magic. Magic? Magic magic!" situation...

...but anyway, in this case, there's also a GM behind the device, who can tell the RNG what to spit out if needed. A way for Serini to keep the Gate safe from interlopers like Team Evil, but also to bring people to it if needed without having to deal with a giant pack of monsters powerful enough to give a Lich as powerful as Xykon EXP, and a way to keep the gate safe from the monsters themselves.

[Ruck]

In the shell game of an absolute master, the prize isn't under any cup-- OR the dealer's sleeve, either. Given that Serini put together hundreds of dungeons, each with some monsters strong enough to give Xykon XP, I think it's safe to say she's done literally as much as possible to defend this gate.

In light of this... I can't help but feel like the entire "Making the right guess isn't how you get there, and I have an idea what the trick might be" crowd is also barking up the wrong tree, somehow.

I have refrained from guessing precisely because I have no idea if there's a trick, or what the trick might be, or if it really is just guessing + brute force. The one thing I'm fairly confident of it is won't be any twist that's already been used in the story.

[Morty]

To me, the best reconciling between Serini being a thief and her defending the gate with might would be if somewhere between the tunnels there were a pocket of stone with the gate inside of it. Even if Team Evil knew that, they wouldn't know where, so they'd still have to dig through and run into monsters and, unless they efficiently start digging in one corner and work to the other side instead of digging in random spots, potentially turn it into a confusing labyrinth in the process. If they carefully charted all the tunnels as they emptied them out, they'd have a map showing potential spots to dig, but of course they haven't been doing that. That way anyone after the gate still needs might, but they also need to think through what they're doing, and random adventurers (or the bugbears) aren't going to just happen across the gate without meaning to.

I don't think it'll be in a completely different location because the only reason anyone thinks the gate is there is because she put it in her journal, and if she was going to fill her journal with misinformation she wouldn't be talking about the gates at all.

Why is any "reconciliation" needed? We don't actually know a whole lot about Serini and how she operated. We can infer she was an earnest and good-natured person, since she stepped in to prevent Dorukan, Soon and Girard from killing each other. And that she wanted to honor Kraagor with the defences she built. That's about it. The only reason to assume subterfuge is involved seems to be her class.

[Potatopeelerkin]

"Wait, has anyone here experienced dramatic catharsis in the last five or ten minutes?"

Does 'finally being listened to by Roy' count? Maybe that moment already passed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0891.html).

[Riftwolf]

After all this time, the Order is finally working together like a well-oiled machine.

A well-oiled machine made by combining parts from incompatible machines, but a well-oiled one.

If my understanding of Ork technology is correct, 'more oil' is the solution to any mechanical problem.

[Ruck]

Roy and Elan's relationship has actually come full circle. Roy put him on the team in the first place because Elan understood the genre conventions around building a team of adventurers. Now he's relying on Elan's knowledge of genre conventions to determine when a final battle should be fought. Elan is in effect doing the job he was hired for, and Roy finally understands how best to use Elan's talents for the party's success.

Heh, I like this observation.


It's 36.5 pages right now, so about 10%. Actually, given the intro and recap strips, you're probably right.

I didn't do a page count, but Rich has said he expects this to be the longest book, and the previous longest (Blood Runs in the Family) was 274 strips. 29 x 9 = 261, so I'm probably actually short a little.


Why is any "reconciliation" needed? We don't actually know a whole lot about Serini and how she operated. We can infer she was an earnest and good-natured person, since she stepped in to prevent Dorukan, Soon and Girard from killing each other. And that she wanted to honor Kraagor with the defences she built. That's about it. The only reason to assume subterfuge is involved seems to be her class.

And just to emphasize, she's a Rogue, not a Thief. Sure, terminology-wise D&D just made that class name change between editions, but character-wise a rogue would not necessarily be so concerned with thievery.

[Wraithfighter]

I didn't do a page count, but Rich has said he expects this to be the longest book, and the previous longest (Blood Runs in the Family) was 274 strips. 29 x 9 = 261, so I'm probably actually short a little.

In the traditional 3 act structure (which is not a requirement for a good story or applicable to every story but is at least a useful framework for this sort of analysis in order to get a grasp on things), the first (where we get set-up and the inciting incident
for the story) and third (where the big boss fight is expected, as well as any complications that might arise during it) acts tend to be shorter compared to the second act. And since this is the final book in a freakin' epic series, we can probably append a 4th "act" on there to handle the epilogue stuff, wrapping up loose ends, happy endings (or sad endings, only Elan is prophesized to get a happy one), that sort of thing.

So, rounding up to 300 strips, given the expectation that this book would be longer than the previous one (and because round numbers are easier to work with)? That'd be ~60 strips for Act 1, ~120 for Act 2, ~60 for Act 3, and ~60 for the stuff for extended wrap-up bits.

I'm being very loose and rough with the math, but the point is that we're still very much within the first act right now. We may still be within the Inciting Incident, where the status quo is upended as we barrel on towards the first major plot point.

Just a general point, we're still early on in this book. It might be the final book, but that doesn't mean that there's not plenty of major revelations yet to come...

[Shining Wrath]

I believe the Prophet told the Order there were 9 sides, or something like that?

We cannot get to a denouement until a few more sides are on the scene.

[danielxcutter]

I believe the Prophet told the Order there were 9 sides, or something like that?

We cannot get to a denouement until a few more sides are on the scene.

One of the demon roaches mentioned that when Redcloak was talking to Jirix about Xykon actually.

[The MunchKING]

I believe the Prophet told the Order there were 9 sides, or something like that?

We cannot get to a denouement until a few more sides are on the scene.

Except people have come up with lists that expand beyond just 9 sides. SO we could have already had all the dies we're getting.

[Grey Watcher]

I think, with regards to Serini, it's worth noting that Haley is able to tune into the way Girard thought not because she's a Rogue, but because she used to be like Girard insofar as she believed that deception is the best defense.

We don't know much about Serini. Yeah, maybe she took the Rogue class because she's sneaky like that. Or maybe she doesn't have a dishonest bone in her body and never put a single point in Bluff, Hide, or Move Silently, instead preferring to use the class features for exploration.

So maybe a shell game never occurred to her? Or it's exactly what she's doing? Without knowing more about Serini herself, we can't really say anything with any degree of certainty.

(Though I'm inclined to agree with the above that, out of character, Rich is unlikely to give the same gimmick to two dungeons in a row.)

[The MunchKING]

Maybe she's secretly a Belkar style super-murderer and went into Rogue for that sweet Sneak Attack DPT. :smallwink:

[Grey Watcher]

Maybe she's secretly a Belkar style super-murderer and went into Rogue for that sweet Sneak Attack DPT. :smallwink:

Now I'm just imagining the Order meeting Serini and Belkar saying "... Mom?"

[KorvinStarmast]

Now I'm just imagining the Order meeting Serini and Belkar saying "... Mom?" That would be cool, and there was that reference to Aunt Judy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html) way back when.

But I don't think that a Belkar back story is something Rich wanted to do, and I also don't think that someone depicted as kind and caring (Serini) would leave their newborn and wander off forever, unless she gave him up for adoption at birth or something? And then she changed her name?

Not seeing it all fit together like that.

[Grey Watcher]

That would be cool, and there was that reference to Aunt Judy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html) way back when.

But I don't think that a Belkar back story is something Rich wanted to do, and I also don't think that someone depicted as kind and caring (Serini) would leave their newborn and wander off forever, unless she gave him up for adoption at birth or something? And then she changed her name?

Not seeing it all fit together like that.

Nah, I don't seriously think it'll play out that way, it was just a funny mental image I had in response to the idea that Serini became Rogue solely for the amount of damage she could inflict.

[bunsen_h]

How about: The floor plans of all of the dungeons spell out an encrypted message, and you have to get the entire message to successfully decrypt it? That would be a nice use of both the brute-force and rogue skill sets. It would require that there be wards set up to prevent someone from bypassing the monsters, zipping in and out without fighting.

[Grey Watcher]

How about: The floor plans of all of the dungeons spell out an encrypted message, and you have to get the entire message to successfully decrypt it? That would be a nice use of both the brute-force and rogue skill sets. It would require that there be wards set up to prevent someone from bypassing the monsters, zipping in and out without fighting.

"My name is Sheltem"?

[Dion]

Maybe Oona was right all along and and monster hollow isn’t Kraagors tomb.

Maybe Monster hollow is just a petting a zoo Serini created in her spare time because she likes animals.

Maybe Kraagors tomb is somewhere else.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Doesn't explain why she wrote down the coordinates in her diary under the heading Five Gates That Keep The Gods From Blowing Up The World. Also doesn't explain why the paladins know this is the location of the Fifth Gate, as passed down to them by Soon, the guy who was there.

[Dion]

Doesn't explain why she wrote down the coordinates in her diary under the heading Five Gates That Keep The Gods From Blowing Up The World. Also doesn't explain why the paladins know this is the location of the Fifth Gate, as passed down to them by Soon, the guy who was there.

I’m not saying it’s not nearby.

But in the crayon drawing, the gate is outside.

I mean, I know the crayon drawings aren’t exact representations. But it has never made sense to my why they’re trying to find a gate that’s supposed to be above ground in an underground location called monster hollow?

My guess is that before the end of the book Oona says “I told you this wasn’t Kraagor’s tomb. You didn’t listen.”

Heck, for all I know maybe Oona’s job as a beast master is to take the biggest meanest monsters from monster hollow and set them in front of the tomb to guard it. And she hasn’t told Redcloak and Xykon because they never bothered to ask.

[Fyraltari]

I’m not saying it’s not nearby.

But in the crayon drawing, the gate is outside.

I mean, I know the crayon drawings aren’t exact representations. But it has never made sense to my why they’re looking for a gate that’s supposed to be outside in an underground location called monster hollow?
Girard's Gate was also outside. And so was Dorukan's. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) Yet when the Order got to them, both were very much underground. The Scribblers did significant landscaîng, as is obvious by the extradimensional stone.


My guess is that before the end of the book Oona says “I told you this wasn’t Kraagor’s tomb. You didn’t listen.”
What she said was that she doesn't know Kraagor, though.

[arimareiji]

"My name is Sheltem"?

"It's not what you say, it's who you know."

[Yxylu]

I didn't do a page count, but Rich has said he expects this to be the longest book, and the previous longest (Blood Runs in the Family) was 274 strips. 29 x 9 = 261, so I'm probably actually short a little.


For another data point, Blood Runs in the Family has the most panels of any book, at 3,579. Utterly Dwarfed is second with 3,252. So far, we have 373 panels in Book 7, so a little over 10% of Blood Runs in the Family. Those counts for the completed books do include the bonus content, chapter title pages, “previously on” recaps, etc., so there is a little bit of fudging of the numbers. Who knows what this actually means, though?

[arimareiji]

For another data point, Blood Runs in the Family has the most panels of any book, at 3,579. Utterly Dwarfed is second with 3,252. So far, we have 373 panels in Book 7, so a little over 10% of Blood Runs in the Family. Those counts for the completed books do include the bonus content, chapter title pages, “previously on” recaps, etc., so there is a little bit of fudging of the numbers. Who knows what this actually means, though?

I have a compulsion for figuring up meaningless statistics like "which baseball team had the best/worst home/away record in the last two decades", and even I'm afraid to ask how this was determined. (^_~)

[Anitar]

I have a compulsion for figuring up meaningless statistics like "which baseball team had the best/worst home/away record in the last two decades", and even I'm afraid to ask how this was determined. (^_~)

I don't see any other way to obtain such precise figures other than manually counting everything. I think the question here isn't "how", so much as "why".

[Storm_Of_Snow]

But I don't think that a Belkar back story is something Rich wanted to do
It was one of the patron-choice Kickstarter stories, and I'm assuming it will get a printed version at some point. :smallamused:

For the gate, one thing to consider is that Serini's not set the gate's defences up as a rogue, she's set them up as she thought Kraagor would have done them, so somewhere between a rogue and a barbarian.

[Dion]

For the gate, one thing to consider is that Serini's not set the gate's defences up as a rogue, she's set them up as she thought Kraagor would have done them, so somewhere between a rogue and a barbarian.

And everyone knows barbarian love nothing more than to fight the one big boss monster at the end! Therefore the gate is In a giant open arena protected by one big boss monster.

MiTD: oh, hi mom!

[Ruck]

It was one of the patron-choice Kickstarter stories, and I'm assuming it will get a printed version at some point. :smallamused:

Are you referring to Uncivil Servant? It's already been done.

Rich doesn't want to do a Belkar backstory because he doesn't want to create tragic or sympathetic motivations for his love of violence and killing.

[KorvinStarmast]

It was one of the patron-choice Kickstarter stories, and I'm assuming it will get a printed version at some point. :smallamused: I have Uncivil Servant, if that is what you are referring to. It does not offer him a back story, but it does illustrate his bloody handed nature before he arrived at OoTPCs in a jail cell and before his general "stab it as a default" in DCF.

For the gate, one thing to consider is that Serini's not set the gate's defences up as a rogue, she's set them up as she thought Kraagor would have done them, so somewhere between a rogue and a barbarian. A Ranger, then? :smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

Question:

As I understand it, Wind Walk is still in effect. Can't they just change back to cloud form at will and retreat? Why didn't they consider that?

I understand that it takes a few rounds, it isn't something that can be done in the middle of a fight. But they've got a minute or two before Xykon arrives. Is that enough time?

[Rogar Demonblud]

They don't know that they have minutes. So they need to be out of sight immediately. If they were following optimal tactics, they'd probably open a few more doors, hide a little ways down the tunnel and go vapor there. But OOTS is low-op, so that's not happening.

[Xel]

And everyone knows barbarian love nothing more than to fight the one big boss monster at the end! Therefore the gate is In a giant open arena protected by one big boss monster.

MiTD: oh, hi mom!

We can make almost* everyone's guess work simultaneously. Inside of the big boss monster in the arena is a block of multi-dimensional stone that they have to ignore while they dig through the rest of the monster to find the gate. The layout of all the dungeons spells "Gizzard" in elvish.

*I'm sure I've missed more than a few guesses, but there's always room for more.

[Yxylu]

I don't see any other way to obtain such precise figures other than manually counting everything. I think the question here isn't "how", so much as "why".

You nailed the “how,” as there really isn’t any other convenient way.


It started as a curiosity thing when I considered the idea that Vaarsuvius is so talkative. I was wondering whether V spoke the most out of all the characters, so I started counting words. Rather than just one big count, I broke it up into bite-sized chunks, so I counted by panel. I’ve been inputting that into Excel, and I can easily pull all sorts of random stats from it. The data entry was sort of tedious and time-consuming (I started this several years ago) at first, but keeping it up-to-date is fairly trivial. It takes just a few minutes whenever a new comic comes out.

To address my original question, though, Vaarsuvius is 5th place with 27,762 words. Roy is by far the first place, having 62,854 (both of those are as of 1218).

[The MunchKING]

You nailed the “how,” as there really isn’t any other convenient way.


It started as a curiosity thing when I considered the idea that Vaarsuvius is so talkative. I was wondering whether V spoke the most out of all the characters, so I started counting words. Rather than just one big count, I broke it up into bite-sized chunks, so I counted by panel. I’ve been inputting that into Excel, and I can easily pull all sorts of random stats from it. The data entry was sort of tedious and time-consuming (I started this several years ago) at first, but keeping it up-to-date is fairly trivial. It takes just a few minutes whenever a new comic comes out.

To address my original question, though, Vaarsuvius is 5th place with 27,762 words. Roy is by far the first place, having 62,854 (both of those are as of 1218).


I've got to imagine V's got a way higher Word/Panel (that she talks in) count than most of the others. Roy might edge her out given that he's the main character and does a lot of the talking and strategizing, but a per panel metric would probably make V's Loquaciousness much more apparent statistically.

[Yxylu]

I've got to imagine V's got a way higher Word/Panel (that she talks in) count than most of the others. Roy might edge her out given that he's the main character and does a lot of the talking and strategizing, but a per panel metric would probably make V's Loquaciousness much more apparent statistically.

Roy has 15.71 words per panel (where he speaks), while Vaarsuvius has 16.00. Keep in mind that a lot of the things V says are two or three words long, with neat special effects to go along with them.

Edit - I made an Excel error, so the numbers above aren’t right. Roy should be 15.18, and Vaarsuvius 16.48. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for suggesting this metric, by the way. It’s opened up some interesting observations. Durkon’s average almost doubles, since he spends a lot of panels not saying anything. Also, of the characters that speak in over 10 panels (eliminating silliness like the dwarves contractors building Dorukan’s castle), the character with the most words in a panel with speaking is the Bloodstone Warden with 28.45.

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy is by far the first place having 62,854 (both of those are as of 1218) As Thog might have said: Talky man talk too much :thog:

[The MunchKING]

the character with the most words in a panel with speaking is the Bloodstone Warden with 28.45.

It kind of makes sense. His whole job was to exposit on the gladiatorial session then leave.

[jackal59]

Things are serious when Roy is looking to Elan for information to base their tactics on.
Not even a joke; it is showing the growth of the group, understanding everyone's 'strength' is still a strength worth using.

This also shows Rich's growth as a writer. He started out very good, but he's only gotten better. Who knew that, after reading epic fantasy since I was a teenager in the 1970s, one of the best epic fantasies I would end up reading would be told with stick figures?

[KorvinStarmast]

This also shows Rich's growth as a writer. He started out very good, but he's only gotten better. Who knew that, after reading epic fantasy since I was a teenager in the 1970s, one of the best epic fantasies I would end up reading would be told with stick figures? what epic fantasies would those have been? Kurtz? Moorcock? Tolkien? Burroughs?

[Ruck]

This also shows Rich's growth as a writer. He started out very good, but he's only gotten better. Who knew that, after reading epic fantasy since I was a teenager in the 1970s, one of the best epic fantasies I would end up reading would be told with stick figures?

Rich really is one of my favorite storytellers working today. Web comics and fantasy aren't my usual medium, but he's just so good at creating rich characters, plausible and well-plotted drama, and with plenty of humor to make each strip entertaining as well. OOTS is one of my favorite dramatic works in recent years.

[Drake Halfmoon]

I was hoping for Roy to give Durkon a slice of Hell for jeopardizing the whole mission, but I understand that current priorities require cooler heads.

Besides, there'll be plenty of time for Roy to beat Durkon's head in later on.

[Riftwolf]

I have Uncivil Servant, if that is what you are referring to. It does not offer him a back story, but it does illustrate his bloody handed nature before he arrived at OoTPCs in a jail cell and before his general "stab it as a default" in DCF.
A Ranger, then? :smallbiggrin:

Rogues are just factory-farmed Rangers, after all.

[Snails]

I understand that it takes a few rounds, it isn't something that can be done in the middle of a fight. But they've got a minute or two before Xykon arrives. Is that enough time?

If they guess wrong about the timing and Xykon sees them while within dispelling range (circa 350 feet for X.), then a lot of them are suddenly and permanently dead. Getting out of line of sight increases their likelihood of successful escape by a lot. If they could foil the tracking by some means, entering a door could buy them hours or days.

[Snails]

I believe the Prophet told the Order there were 9 sides, or something like that?

We cannot get to a denouement until a few more sides are on the scene.

I am in a tiny minority, but I am pretty sure that "9 sides" is a joke about the nine alignments. Which in context would mean that everyone is in the Gate Quest, whether they know it or not. So there are nine teams "or more" because not all "teams" are working towards the same purpose.

[Gurgeh]

The "I count at least nine" comes from one of the Demon Roaches in 548 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html). As such, it's not something the Order would have any idea about at all, and is only loosely confined by the fourth wall.

Note that "at least" is a lower bound, not a precise target number.

[ebarde]

I think the demon roaches are refering at least partially to the fiend triumvirate? Because that's the only side I can see them knowing more about than Redcloak, unless they have some larger plot thing going on which I think it's doubtful.

[Gurgeh]

I think anything the Demon Roaches say needs to be taken with a grain of salt because they break the fourth wall all the time; they don't need diegetic reasons to know about any of the kerfuffle surrounding the gates, they're able to drop hints because the author uses them to tell jokes.

[locksmith of lo]

In a shell game of a true professional, the prize isn't under any of cups at all. Maybe same about the Gate.

but it seems that everyone knows that, and that it is what everyone expects. even haley would think this is the most likely scenario. which makes me suspicious that it is a fake out, so i think that it is under all the cups. just hidden in a way that certain conditions must be met to open the path. :smallwink:

[arimareiji]

I think anything the Demon Roaches say needs to be taken with a grain of salt because they break the fourth wall all the time; they don't need diegetic reasons to know about any of the kerfuffle surrounding the gates, they're able to drop hints because the author uses them to tell jokes.

They made a toss-off joke about how there are "at least nine" sides to the conflict, and the theory that it was in reference to the alignments seems to hold water.

Even if it's not just a toss-off joke, I'm not sure what value can be gleaned from becoming a Roach Whisperer... is it not a truism that in a conflict that involves a world full of people, there will actually be at least dozens, hundreds, or thousands of distinct "sides" all trying to get what's best for them?

[Deathhappens]

Wow. Possibly the single (double?) strip where everyone's pesonality is best displayed, all at once.

I don't see Belkar murdering or making threats/jokes about murdering other sentient beings, though.
Which brings me to... Belkar IS alive for the final battle, take that prophecy!

[hamishspence]

It never said he'd die before the final battle though - so it can still be true, with him dying during, or after, the battle, but still less than 7 weeks from the end of book 4.

[Goblin_Priest]

They made a toss-off joke about how there are "at least nine" sides to the conflict, and the theory that it was in reference to the alignments seems to hold water.

Even if it's not just a toss-off joke, I'm not sure what value can be gleaned from becoming a Roach Whisperer... is it not a truism that in a conflict that involves a world full of people, there will actually be at least dozens, hundreds, or thousands of distinct "sides" all trying to get what's best for them?

It could be a reference to the alignments, but so far, none of the sides we have seen have been alignment-driven. The Order of the Stick has the full spectrum of alignments, basically. The Linear Guild had some diversity as far as I can tell. Team Evil as well, Redcloak probably being LE, Xykon probably being CE, MitD probably being N (though early depictions hinted more at NE), Oona being an unknown E, Tsukiko probably being NE, and former allies like Right-Eye being CN iirc. The IFCC is all three evils. The Vector Legion has diversity as well. God-side, none of the votes tend to match the alignment divisions, Thor is inconsistently-aligned, and Loki's on all sides (while also only being on his own side).

This comic never really showed any faction that could be defined by belonging to one of the 9 alignments.

[KorvinStarmast]

This comic never really showed any faction that could be defined by belonging to one of the 9 alignments.
Even though Miko was squarely depicted as Lawful Stupid, the 11th alignment. (The 10th alignment is of course Chaotic Stupid, the alignment of many "my guy syndrome" PCs who make games difficult)
We haven't had a Miko digression in a while, anyone up for one?

[danielxcutter]

Eh, you can make any alignment stupid. It’s more a player problem than anything; I’ve had a CN, LN, and NE player in the same party and well it wasn’t all roses but we did get along fairly well until the DM had RL issues. Of course that being said, each of us was explicitly chosen to represent a god so we could find and destroy the artifacts the campaign revolved around. Which could seal gods if used right apparently. That’s almost a Snarl-level threat.

[InvisibleBison]

Since the "nine sides" remark has been brought up, I feel obliged to point out that the sides in question were defined as being involved in the conflict over the gates as of #548. People or groups that got involved after that comic wouldn't be among the nine sides, which rules out such frequently nominated contenders as the Vector Legion, Hel, and arguably the IFCC.

[understatement]

Since the "nine sides" remark has been brought up, I feel obliged to point out that the sides in question were defined as being involved in the conflict over the gates as of #548. People or groups that got involved after that comic wouldn't be among the nine sides, which rules out such frequently nominated contenders as the Vector Legion, Hel, and arguably the IFCC.

The Vector Legion definitely were involved in the race for the Gates -- initially by Tarquin, and then Laurin wanted to secure one for the water supply. The IFCC explicitly say in #668 that their conflict has been about the Gates. Hel doesn't have a gate involvement, but her plans involve destroying the world, which capitalized on a gate being blown up.

***


On my personal spec, it would be the Order, Xykon (plus Tsukiko), Redcloak (goblins, the Dark One), Linear Guild, the IFCC, the Vector Legion, Hel's forces, the Scribble, and the mysterious voices. While the following are prominent factions, the Thieves' Guild isn't in the world-risking business, and the Sapphire Guard for all purposes is allied with the Order. Other groups (Amun-Zora's rebellion, Haley's rebel group, the Mechane) aren't pivotal or developed enough to tie in with the main gate business.

[Petrocorus]

(The 10th alignment is of course Chaotic Stupid, the alignment of many "my guy syndrome" PCs who make games difficult)


Yep. I feel like this alignment is more and more common.
But maybe it's the people i play with...

[KorvinStarmast]

Hel doesn't have a gate involvement, but her plans involve destroying the world, which capitalized on a gate being blown up.

On my personal spec, it would be the Order, Xykon (plus Tsukiko), Redcloak (goblins, the Dark One), Linear Guild, the IFCC, the Vector Legion, Hel's forces, the Scribble, and the mysterious voices. While the following are prominent factions, the Thieves' Guild isn't in the world-risking business, and the Sapphire Guard for all purposes is allied with the Order. Other groups (Amun-Zora's rebellion, Haley's rebel group, the Mechane) aren't pivotal or developed enough to tie in with the main gate business. :mitd: What gate? Actually, I like your groupings, and the ones you point to being outside the 'sides' based on gate focus.

[Metastachydium]

The Vector Legion definitely were involved in the race for the Gates -- initially by Tarquin, and then Laurin wanted to secure one for the water supply. The IFCC explicitly say in #668 that their conflict has been about the Gates. Hel doesn't have a gate involvement, but her plans involve destroying the world, which capitalized on a gate being blown up.

***


On my personal spec, it would be the Order, Xykon (plus Tsukiko), Redcloak (goblins, the Dark One), Linear Guild, the IFCC, the Vector Legion, Hel's forces, the Scribble, and the mysterious voices. While the following are prominent factions, the Thieves' Guild isn't in the world-risking business, and the Sapphire Guard for all purposes is allied with the Order. Other groups (Amun-Zora's rebellion, Haley's rebel group, the Mechane) aren't pivotal or developed enough to tie in with the main gate business.


I don't know. Tarquin did not care much about the Gates (he only got involved in the whole deal because both of his sons were involved) and Laurin's design for Girard's Rift was strictly private business which had precious little to do with the Legion as a faction, while the Scribbler's as a cohesive group have not been a thing for decades at that point.
Consequently, my big nine seven would rather be Team Good (the Order, the Guard and MitD), the Church of the Dark One, Xykon, the IFCC, the Linears (arguably – they served as pawns to the IFCC, but only Sabine knew that and they had an agenda of their own), Girard's clan (which was still around and hostile to elements of Team Good when the comment was made) and the Voices (whom I believe to be affiliated with the Church of Tiamat, but that's, of course, probably just me). As for the rest, the Church of Hel could indeed fit if the roaches have some manner of precognition; the Church of Tiamat could be involved (they know about the Gates, after all) if the Voices aren't with them; the Church of Thor could arguably be a separate side, since their priorities slightly differ from those of Team Good; and we might consider the Elves (the Elven Command knows about the Rifts) or the Holey Brotherhood (unlikely) or Baron Pineapple (probably dead).

[understatement]

:mitd: What gate? Actually, I like your groupings, and the ones you point to being outside the 'sides' based on gate focus.

Thanks :smallsmile:


I don't know. Tarquin did not care much about the Gates (he only got involved in the whole deal because both of his sons were involved) and Laurin's design for Girard's Rift was strictly private business which had precious little to do with the Legion as a faction, while the Scribbler's as a cohesive group have not been a thing for decades at that point.
Consequently, my big nine seven would rather be Team Good (the Order, the Guard and MitD), the Church of the Dark One, Xykon, the IFCC, the Linears (arguably – they served as pawns to the IFCC, but only Sabine knew that and they had an agenda of their own), Girard's clan (which was still around and hostile to elements of Team Good when the comment was made) and the Voices (whom I believe to be affiliated with the Church of Tiamat, but that's, of course, probably just me). As for the rest, the Church of Hel could indeed fit if the roaches have some manner of precognition; the Church of Tiamat could be involved (they know about the Gates, after all) if the Voices aren't with them; the Church of Thor could arguably be a separate side, since their priorities slightly differ from those of Team Good; and we might consider the Elves (the Elven Command knows about the Rifts) or the Holey Brotherhood (unlikely) or Baron Pineapple (probably dead).

These are good points, but I also tried to arrange the factions on their a) degree of antagonism/influence and b) animosity with the main characters.

It's true that Tarquin doesn't really care about the gates, but it's ultimately his hunt for it that pushes Roy to blow the Gate, and it's Laurin probing the rift that has the Snarl busting out as well.

I wouldn't say the MiTD is on the Order's side -- he is certainly on O-Chul's, sure, but he's not really allied with the Order.

I don't know about the Church of Thor -- there's just not that many developed characters in it, and Thor is essentially on the Order's side anyways. Slightly differing goals probably don't determine a faction, or else Durkon and Roy would be considered separate as well.

Elves, Holy Brotherhood -- not really important. Long dead, long defeated, not powerful or influential, and the titular Order has no connection to them.

TLDR; I was thinking that each faction should be a sizeable force enough to have a stake in the conflict. Obviously I'm not sure, since there could still be way more factions and there's also the whole riftworld thing.

[Dion]

which makes me suspicious that it is a fake out,

You know what is the ultimate fake out? Getting people to play the wrong game.

[InvisibleBison]

The Vector Legion definitely were involved in the race for the Gates -- initially by Tarquin, and then Laurin wanted to secure one for the water supply. The IFCC explicitly say in #668 that their conflict has been about the Gates. Hel doesn't have a gate involvement, but her plans involve destroying the world, which capitalized on a gate being blown up.

***


On my personal spec, it would be the Order, Xykon (plus Tsukiko), Redcloak (goblins, the Dark One), Linear Guild, the IFCC, the Vector Legion, Hel's forces, the Scribble, and the mysterious voices. While the following are prominent factions, the Thieves' Guild isn't in the world-risking business, and the Sapphire Guard for all purposes is allied with the Order. Other groups (Amun-Zora's rebellion, Haley's rebel group, the Mechane) aren't pivotal or developed enough to tie in with the main gate business.


Yes, the Vector Legion and Hel both got involved in the struggle over the control of the Gates - but neither of them were involved in the struggle at the time that the demon-roach remarked about their being nine sides. And the Order of the Scribble couldn't have been one of the nine sides, because at that time the Order of the Scribble no longer existed.

A good point about the IFCC, though. I'd forgotten that.

[Metastachydium]

These are good points, but I also tried to arrange the factions on their a) degree of antagonism/influence and b) animosity with the main characters.

Which is a good call overall, and part of the reason why I recommended replacing the Scribblers with the Draketooth clan.


It's true that Tarquin doesn't really care about the gates, but it's ultimately his hunt for it that pushes Roy to blow the Gate, and it's Laurin probing the rift that has the Snarl busting out as well.

Still, it does not make them relevant as a faction. Tarquin simply assisted the Linears, while Laurin was doing her own thing.


I wouldn't say the MiTD is on the Order's side -- he is certainly on O-Chul's, sure, but he's not really allied with the Order.

Well, since O-Chul and the Monster are on the same side, O-Chul and the Order are on the same side and the Monster recognizes the Order as O-Chul's friends, I'd say they arguably are on the same side. Anyhow, I can't think of a better place where we could put the Monster.


I don't know about the Church of Thor -- there's just not that many developed characters in it, and Thor is essentially on the Order's side anyways. Slightly differing goals probably don't determine a faction, or else Durkon and Roy would be considered separate as well.

Yeah, I'm not sure about this one either. However, dual affiliation is absolutely a thing (think of Sabine) and Durkon is affiliated with both the Order and the Church. In fact, much of book seven was about how his loyalty to the latter messed up the plans of the former.


Elves, Holy Brotherhood -- not really important. Long dead, long defeated, not powerful or influential, and the titular Order has no connection to them.

I wouldn't say the elves are not powerful or influential enough, but it is definitely true that they had little presence as a faction in the comic, and thereby they have little, so to say, narrative weight.


TLDR; I was thinking that each faction should be a sizeable force enough to have a stake in the conflict.

I'd still argue that the Church of Tiamat has the potential to fit the bill.


Obviously I'm not sure, since there could still be way more factions and there's also the whole riftworld thing.

Well, yeah. But that never stopped anyone from speculatin' around, did it?

[Riftwolf]

Wild 9 sides speculation

Got to love how the forums can take something probably intended as a throwaway gag and extrapolate it out into ultracanon. Remember that Jirix only stamped on one roach, therefore that roach must've been on its own side from the other roaches, and wiping out that faction was Jirixs Moral Event Horizon.

[Wraithfighter]

Two potential other factions:

Serini: A halfling's average life expectancy is 150 years (well, assuming they avoid playing in traffic, stay away from mystical gates that seal up god-killing powers, and don't take up adventuring as a career), so it wouldn't take any special magic for her to still be around, and if she were still alive, she'd definitely have a vested interest in what's going on with the Gates (that might not align with all of our heroes).

And, well, we haven't seen a body yet, have we? The team finally meeting one of the Order of the Scribbles would be a fitting thing to happen in the final book and all that.

The Snarl: I think it could count as having a stake in what happens to the gates, and its definitely a powerful force. Sure, it's only been talked about as being this unthinking, chaotic force... but there is that planet behind the gates. There's a huge amount of unknowns about the most powerful entity in the setting, promoting it to a "Faction" definitely seems at least worth considering.

[Ron Miel]

Two potential other factions:

Serini: ...
And, well, we haven't seen a body yet, have we? .

No, but Xykon acquired her diary. We don't know the details, but somehow I doubt she survived it.

[Anitar]

So, if the OotS and Xykon's group are (about to be) in the dungeons at the same time... I'm thinking the perspective will cut away to someone else, just to maintain the "it's a good thing nobody has to draw the dungeon interiors" joke. Personally I'm hoping for the Mystery Voices.

[Goblin_Priest]

Two potential other factions:

Serini: A halfling's average life expectancy is 150 years (well, assuming they avoid playing in traffic, stay away from mystical gates that seal up god-killing powers, and don't take up adventuring as a career), so it wouldn't take any special magic for her to still be around, and if she were still alive, she'd definitely have a vested interest in what's going on with the Gates (that might not align with all of our heroes).

And, well, we haven't seen a body yet, have we? The team finally meeting one of the Order of the Scribbles would be a fitting thing to happen in the final book and all that.

The Snarl: I think it could count as having a stake in what happens to the gates, and its definitely a powerful force. Sure, it's only been talked about as being this unthinking, chaotic force... but there is that planet behind the gates. There's a huge amount of unknowns about the most powerful entity in the setting, promoting it to a "Faction" definitely seems at least worth considering.

Now that you mention it, what *did* happen to her?

Also, in how many pages have we seen her? More than 1? Edit: damn, at least two. There goes that theory.

[understatement]

Yes, the Vector Legion and Hel both got involved in the struggle over the control of the Gates - but neither of them were involved in the struggle at the time that the demon-roach remarked about their being nine sides. And the Order of the Scribble couldn't have been one of the nine sides, because at that time the Order of the Scribble no longer existed.

A good point about the IFCC, though. I'd forgotten that.

The thing about the 9 sides is that, in one of the commentaries (I only got the book relatively recently) Rich does mention "book 5 will introduce at least one new side." So the roaches' commentaries definitely extend beyond their current context.


Which is a good call overall, and part of the reason why I recommended replacing the Scribblers with the Draketooth clan.



Still, it does not make them relevant as a faction. Tarquin simply assisted the Linears, while Laurin was doing her own thing.



Well, since O-Chul and the Monster are on the same side, O-Chul and the Order are on the same side and the Monster recognizes the Order as O-Chul's friends, I'd say they arguably are on the same side. Anyhow, I can't think of a better place where we could put the Monster.



Yeah, I'm not sure about this one either. However, dual affiliation is absolutely a thing (think of Sabine) and Durkon is affiliated with both the Order and the Church. In fact, much of book seven was about how his loyalty to the latter messed up the plans of the former.



I wouldn't say the elves are not powerful or influential enough, but it is definitely true that they had little presence as a faction in the comic, and thereby they have little, so to say, narrative weight.



I'd still argue that the Church of Tiamat has the potential to fit the bill.



Well, yeah. But that never stopped anyone from speculatin' around, did it?

Fair. I can't say I agree with all of 'em, but I agree that the MiTD will likely join the Order as an ally towards the end.


Got to love how the forums can take something probably intended as a throwaway gag and extrapolate it out into ultracanon. Remember that Jirix only stamped on one roach, therefore that roach must've been on its own side from the other roaches, and wiping out that faction was Jirixs Moral Event Horizon.

The 9 sides comment is mentioned in BRiTF's commentary and taken relatively seriously, so there might be a bit of merit for wild extrapolation.

Jirix + roaches jokes never get old.