Ways to bypass the hp cost of creating a Magen.

[Clistenes]

I know the hp cost is included in order to avoid spellcasters creating whole armies of Magen, but, is there any way for a high-level spellcaster to bypass that cost?

I have thought of a few possibilities:

1.-Using a Wish spell to duplicate the Create Magen spell. I don't think this would work out... The Wish spell avoids expensive components, but the permanent loss of 1-3 hp isn't described as a cost, but as an effect of the spell.

2.-Having a Simulacrum of yourself cast Wish to give your hp back (avoiding the 33 % chance of losing the ability to cast Wish forever).

3.-Crafting a Ring of Three Wishes or Luck Blade to make the Magen itself cast Wish to give your hp back (too expensive and time-consuming for a CR 1 - 3 servant, really).

4.-Using True Polymorph to turn an object into a Magen (can be dispelled, and, will the Magen created that way obey you afterwards?).

5.-Using True Polymorph on an already subservient construct (like a gnomish Clockwork creature) to turn it into a Magen (if both the original creature and the final one are loyal constructs, will it remain that way?).

Anything else?

EDIT: And anyway, what is the big deal with having a few Magens? Golems are way more powerful and you can have any number of them, money being the only limit... And Magens can't even act as spies without further magical aid, being green and mute.

[AttilatheYeon]

Create a Similicrum who will then summon the Magen.

[Zhorn]

10th level Necromancer Wizard feature Inured to Undeath
"Beginning at 10th level, you have resistance to necrotic damage, and your hit point maximum can't be reduced...."

[Clistenes]

Create a Similicrum who will then summon the Magen.

But if the Simulacrum dies, you lose control of the Magen too... also, I don't think a Simulacrum has real blood, and you need blood to create a Magen...


10th level Necromancer Wizard feature Inured to Undeath

"Beginning at 10th level, you have resistance to necrotic damage, and your hit point maximum can't be reduced...."

I wonder if the Magen was designed with Necromancers in mind...

[Sparky McDibben]

Where is this from?

[Zhorn]

Where is this from?

It's a spell from Icewind Dale Rime of the Frost Maiden

[Mr Adventurer]

I hadn't seen this yet - just looked into it all. Interesting stuff.

The spell says the magen is created wearing whatever the doll it was created from was wearing. Does this mean we can vary their equipment? In particular their AC could probably stand to be increased through better armour.

It's a shame they can't speak - means they can't use command words.

[Clistenes]

My main issue is, the Magen seems to be designed to fulfill the role of low level minion in a powerful wizard's base. Unseen Servants can clean, Golems, Iron Cobras, Oaken Arbalests, Helmed Horrors and Nimblewrights are more powerful guardians, Shield Guardians and Stone Defenders make better bodyguards, Simulacrums are better assistants and party members, Figurines of Wondrous Power and Horns of Valhalla provide disposable fodder to draw enemy attacks...etc.

The main merit of the Magen is that it can think on its own, so it can be entrusted maintenance and other tasks while you are away. They can't even interact well with outsiders, being mute and with low charisma.

So I think a cost of a permanent loss of 1 - 3 hp per Magen is unjustified. They seem to not want any player to use them ever...

EDIT: Mmmm... I wonder if you can use True Polymorph to temporally become a Necromancer and create your Magens...? Do we have the stats of any 13 lvl Necromancer NPC anywhere? Would a 13 lvl Necromancer NPC even have the Inured to Undeath feature, or is it a PC trait only?

[MaxWilson]

Magic Jar. Spend somebody else's HP.

[Dork_Forge]

My main issue is, the Magen seems to be designed to fulfill the role of low level minion in a powerful wizard's base. Unseen Servants can clean, Golems, Iron Cobras, Oaken Arbalests, Helmed Horrors and Nimblewrights are more powerful guardians, Shield Guardians and Stone Defenders make better bodyguards, Simulacrums are better assistants and party members, Figurines of Wondrous Power and Horns of Valhalla provide disposable fodder to draw enemy attacks...etc.

The main merit of the Magen is that it can think on its own, so it can be entrusted maintenance and other tasks while you are away. They can't even interact well with outsiders, being mute and with low charisma.

So I think a cost of a permanent loss of 1 - 3 hp per Magen is unjustified. They seem to not want any player to use them ever...

EDIT: Mmmm... I wonder if you can use True Polymorph to temporally become a Necromancer and create your Magens...? Do we have the stats of any Necromancer NPC anywhere? Would a Necromancer NPC even have the Inured to Undeath feature, or is it a PC trait only?

An unseen servant lasts an hour, Simulacrums take a long time and a lot of gold to create and the rest aren't creatable by PCs unless the DM let's you go through the crafting rules for them.

With that in mind ^ the Magen aren't bad constructs, besides Cha they have a good stat line, Magic Resistance and a decently long list of immunities. Their attacks aren't stellar on their own but the can benefit from magic items (heck one has unlimited Suggestion by the look of it) and they would be a decent addition to a Wizard repertoire alongside a familiar and simulacrum.

The token hp reduction is to avoid abuse I would imagine, a Necromancer can bypass it, but a necromancer is in an entirely differenct business of minionmancy. Without the reduction you'll have Wizard players building small personal armies of constructs and steamrolling whatever they please.

Edit: An Eldritch Knight using scrolls of this spells would be interesting though, they'll liekly have some hp to spare and ASIs enough to grab the Tough feat...

[Clistenes]

An unseen servant lasts an hour, Simulacrums take a long time and a lot of gold to create and the rest aren't creatable by PCs unless the DM let's you go through the crafting rules for them.

Golems can be created with Tomes; Figurines of Wondrous Power and Horns of Valhalla can be bought or crafted. The others don't have fixed prices, but you could probably create or acquire them as a quest (Clockwork constructs are crafted by Gnome Artificers, and Shield Guardians are created by Wizards as bodyguards... there should be people out there who knows how to make them...), not so different to magic items...

But even if acquiring or crafting Shield Guardians or Nimblewrights were impossible for PCs, powerful NPCs can create them (they are the ones who create the constructs the PCs fight during adventures... why would NPCs bother with Magens? The spell is the same for PCs and NPCs, they are spending the hp tax too... Why wouldn't they create Nimblewrights instead?

They should have raised the price of the components rather than imposing the hp tax, or to have included rare components like Basilisk's heart, Gorgon's blood and Hydra's liver, or something like that...

[MaxWilson]

The token hp reduction is to avoid abuse I would imagine, a Necromancer can bypass it, but a necromancer is in an entirely differenct business of minionmancy. Without the reduction you'll have Wizard players building small personal armies of constructs and steamrolling whatever they please.

500 gp per Create Magen isn't fundamentally different from 1000 gp per Planar Binding. Small armies are already possible (and powerful) without magens.

[Sigreid]

Golems can be created with Tomes; Figurines of Wondrous Power and Horns of Valhalla can be bought or crafted. The others don't have fixed prices, but you could probably create or acquire them as a quest (Clockwork constructs are crafted by Gnome Artificers, and Shield Guardians are created by Wizards as bodyguards... there should be people out there who knows how to make them...), not so different to magic items...

But even if acquiring or crafting Shield Guardians or Nimblewrights were impossible for PCs, powerful NPCs can create them (they are the ones who create the constructs the PCs fight during adventures... why would NPCs bother with Magens? The spell is the same for PCs and NPCs, they are spending the hp tax too... Why wouldn't they create Nimblewrights instead?

They should have raised the price of the components rather than imposing the hp tax, or to have included rare components like Basilisk's heart, Gorgon's blood and Hydra's liver, or something like that...

While I get DM's not wanting to just turn on the faucet, I'm of the mind that NPCs that aren't gods shouldn't be able to accomplish feats or create things that the players cannot. That doesn't mean that I won't set the price of doing something so high or horrible that players are unlikely to do it. They still can, but aren't likely to. Creating constructs to me though is just normal high level wizard stuff.

[Dork_Forge]

Golems can be created with Tomes; Figurines of Wondrous Power and Horns of Valhalla can be bought or crafted. The others don't have fixed prices, but you could probably create or acquire them as a quest (Clockwork constructs are crafted by Gnome Artificers, and Shield Guardians are created by Wizards as bodyguards... there should be people out there who knows how to make them...), not so different to magic items...

But even if acquiring or crafting Shield Guardians or Nimblewrights were impossible for PCs, powerful NPCs can create them (they are the ones who create the constructs the PCs fight during adventures... why would NPCs bother with Magens? The spell is the same for PCs and NPCs, they are spending the hp tax too... Why wouldn't they create Nimblewrights instead?

They should have raised the price of the components rather than imposing the hp tax, or to have included rare components like Basilisk's heart, Gorgon's blood and Hydra's liver, or something like that...

The point was that all of those things are entirely dependent on the DM facilitating you creating them/finding them, where as Simulacrum, Familiars, Homunculi and Magen are all within a players grasp without an accomodating DM (the only caveat being you're allowed to choose and adventure spell).

If the DM facilitates it then anyone can end up with anything, but that's a pretty pointless discussion as it starts and ends with 'DM may I.'

As for why create Magens, flavour, depth of options, believeability (why would all NPCs all over the world you play in all be able to create the same things and why would that be interesting) and different use cases (unlimited Suggestion), besides Magens fit the roll of construct servant excellently. Not every NPC needs a Golem or Shield Guardian, but everyone would benefit from a tireless, entirely obedient servant that can be pressed into combat in a pinch.



500 gp per Create Magen isn't fundamentally different from 1000 gp per Planar Binding. Small armies are already possible (and powerful) without magens.

I mean, it is though... It's twice as expensive and gives you diddly squat on its own, you need to invest in additional spells (perhaps with more component cost) and then manage a temporary effect on a creature that will very possibly want to murder you for enslaving it.

Though I didn't say that small armies weren't already possible, I said that it was probably the intent of the minor hp reduction to prevent that abuse of the spell. Just because you can technically create small armies already doens't mean they should just throw out more options for oyu to achieve that end.

[JackPhoenix]

I hadn't seen this yet - just looked into it all. Interesting stuff.

The spell says the magen is created wearing whatever the doll it was created from was wearing. Does this mean we can vary their equipment? In particular their AC could probably stand to be increased through better armour.

It's a shame they can't speak - means they can't use command words.

Sure, they have physical body, they can wear whatever you give them that fits them.

That doesn't mean they are proficient with armor. The demos version has chainmail, so it's propably proficient in other armor too.


Magic Jar. Spend somebody else's HP.

Assuming the GM rules that "your hit point maximum decrease" applies to the body you're using instead of, well, you. Because if you use this logic, the magen should also obey whatever creature you've possessed, considering it's their blood.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, it is though... It's twice as expensive and gives you diddly squat on its own, you need to invest in additional spells (perhaps with more component cost) and then manage a temporary effect on a creature that will very possibly want to murder you for enslaving it.

Though I didn't say that small armies weren't already possible, I said that it was probably the intent of the minor hp reduction to prevent that abuse of the spell. Just because you can technically create small armies already doens't mean they should just throw out more options for oyu to achieve that end.

That's called locking the barn door after the horse is already gone. You still wind up with small armies anyway...



Assuming the GM rules that "your hit point maximum decrease" applies to the body you're using instead of, well, you. Because if you use this logic, the magen should also obey whatever creature you've possessed, considering it's their blood.

That ruling would be exploitable in a different way: pay the owner (random peasant in need of a dowry?) to command it to obey you. Considering how much mileage a magen gets out of 1-3 HP...

It does lead to more potential adventure hooks if someone tracks down the owners of your magen and starts blackmailing them to change their orders, but that's not a bad thing.

[Temperjoke]

Here's a thought, what are some ways to restore the lost health points afterwards?

And on a side note, it's an interesting match up of the 10th level Necromancer Wizard feature versus the spell. RAW, the class feature probably wins, but I could see a case for the other direction, as the loss is part of casting a spell that you chose to cast and not an outside force involuntarily doing it to you. Without that decrease in your health point maximum, could it be said that the spell is unable to be completed, assuming you can't choose to let your points decrease?

[Zhorn]

I see no reason why creating Magen would be treated any differently than to creating a Homunculus regarding maximum hit point reduction, and the SAC has confirmed the Inured to Undeath features works there to negate the maximum hit point reduction.

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
If a wizard with Inured to Undeath spends Hit Dice to raise the hit point maximum of a homunculus created by the create homunculus spell, does it still decrease the wizard’s hit point maximum?
Spending the Hit Dice affects the homunculus as described in the spell, but the wizard’s hit point maximum isn’t decreased.

[MaxWilson]

Here's a thought, what are some ways to restore the lost health points afterwards?

Wish.
Perhaps Divine Intervention.

That's it, according to the Create Magen spell text anyway.


I see no reason why creating Magen would be treated any differently than to creating a Homunculus regarding maximum hit point reduction, and the SAC has confirmed the Inured to Undeath features works there to negate the maximum hit point reduction.

Yes, there's broad agreement in this thread that Necromancers can create as many magens as they like without losing any permanent HP.

[Hael]

In practice most DMs will concoct a way to kill them off if you’re too cute about getting around the hp restrictions, or alternatively creating too many of them for adventuring.

Better to create a reserve that you rarely use and can summon from eg a Demi plane in a pinch.

[MaxWilson]

(A) In practice most DMs will concoct a way to kill them off if you’re too cute about getting around the hp restrictions, or alternatively creating too many of them for adventuring.

(B) Better to create a reserve that you rarely use and can summon from eg a Demi plane in a pinch.

(A) Or, they won't, and while you'll realize that while winning safely from behind a wall of magen is good for the player character, it's not a lot of fun for the player, and then you'll get bored and find a reason to stop doing it. Either way you wind up at (B) eventually.

[Dork_Forge]

That's called locking the barn door after the horse is already gone. You still wind up with small armies anyway...


I see no logic in that at all, just because you can already do something doesn't mean it's a good idea to allow more (easier to access) ways of doing it. That's a way of thinking that leads down a very slippery slope.

[MaxWilson]

I see no logic in that at all, just because you can already do something doesn't mean it's a good idea to allow more (easier to access) ways of doing it. That's a way of thinking that leads down a very slippery slope.

It's a way of thinking which leads to fixing the root problem instead of just haphazardly fixing several individual symptoms.